In the beginning was the Jesus article, and it was good, but failed to be featured. One day Robsteadman arrived to challenge the consensus of religion and history alike. Suspected of sockpuppetry, SOPHIA took a break. She did not thrive on suspicion and conflict; most normal people don't. Avery Krouse advocated strong action against Rob, but CTSWyneken urged caution. Archola began to feel that the debate was becoming too polarized and binary. Jim62sch questioned whether we could ever really know anything. In time Rob began to suspect that there was a cabal aligned against him. This prophecy came to pass when AveryKrause's suspicions led to Robsteadman being convicted of sockpuppetry, although some questioned this. AveryKrouse then formed the Christian Cabal, which soon went underground. Meanwhile, The Centrist Faction was born.

Sophistry

Because you have been involved in the Talk:Jesus conflict, I would humbly request that you view this section on Rob Steadman's talk page concerning the recent war that has transpired. I do ask that you do not edit or add to / add comment to this material for the sake of clarity and conciseness. You are free to leave any comments on my talk page if you so desire. Thank you. --Avery W. Krouse 00:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

"You cannot claim a right that you are not prepared to grant to others." I love this quote! My goal all along has been to promote civility and equal rights, although I admit I have been as clouded as anyone else by my own subjective perceptions, hence my need to step back a bit and clear my head. Once we have civility, and if you decide to return, I look forward to working with you.

I'm basically a Perotite: I think we should all stop bickering, lift up the hood of the car and get to work. I'm tired of fighting against both sides, even when it's indirect. May peace and civility reign. Arch O. La 23:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I have been following things - in disbelief I must add. I couldn't cope with having my childhood/personality/world view speculated on the way Rob has had to - so as they say "if you can't stand the heat...".

I have always loved that quote and try to live by it. It's really just another way of saying "love thy neighbour as thyself" - something much needed on the Jesus/Christianity pages at the moment. SOPHIA 23:45, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Glad to hear from you! My own psychosocial analysis was a good faith attempt to understand Rob based on what he has said. I'm sorry if he was offended; on the Christian side there were those who felt I was being too sympathetic to him. Like I said, caught in the middle. I think Rob's beef is more with people like User:Jason Gastrich than with Christianity in general. By the way, Gastrich has had stronger action taken against him than Rob has. I support this even though I am a Christian. I hope Rob has the wisdom not to go as far as Gastrich has.

I understand Rob's frustration that few seem to be listening to him. I have done my best to separate his objective points from his subjective values that clash with mine, and I've been trying to get others to do the same. Rob is right that he is marginalized on the Jesus page, but there are other areas where Christians are just as marginalized (one need look no further than Gastrich). I think we need more moderate secularists to balance the debate, and I think Giovanni fills that role. There are those of us who affirm the truth on both sides. It all comes down to the adage that truth cannot contradict truth (that is NPOV), but perceptions of truth can and often do contradict (that is POV). Of course, that's just my viewpoint ;)

Cheers, Arch O. La 00:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Trying to really understand a different viewpoint is very difficult - like trying to understand "colour" if you are colour blind. I've done a lot of work with autistic/aspergers children and it has helped me to realise there are not just differing views but completely different thought processes. That is why people clash - they genuinely don't see where the other person is coming from. It's probably easier for me than Rob as I grew up a christian but got to my teens and started asking too many questions - so I know both sides. Carl Sagan was the guy who finally gave me the answers that seemed to make sense to me. Who knows why we each view things so differently - it would be pretty boring if we all agreed!

All I've ever wanted on the articles is links to other views and brief mentions to guide the interested reader. This must be done in an NPOV way to stop people feeling they are somehow "wrong" or "loony" (thanks Str1977) if they can't buy the mainstream view. SOPHIA 00:16, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

My father was color blind, so I appreciate the analogy. I have read Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World and I recognized the parallels to the Bright website Rob pointed us to. There are also others trying to reign "our" side in--including a couple of conservatives that have given each other Alito barnstars. There are also those besides myself who miss your wisdom, SOPHIA (which is, after all, what "Sophia" means). Arch O. La 00:24, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the encouraging words. Being a Bright (something I also consider myself to be) purely means living without recourse to the supernatural - to have a totally naturalistic view of life. I have never experienced anything of a supernatural nature - no religious experiences or unexplainable events. I have never read anything (including the bible) to convince me I should have "faith". Honesty is so important to me (hence my upset with the sock stuff) that I can't just go along with something because other people think I should or to hedge my bets - to quote Monty Python "God would see through a cheap trick like that".

However - my children are my "miracles" and the sun on my face feels so good. Music transports me to places that seem outside of time - seeing a total eclipse was a "magical" experience because not inspite of knowing how it all worked. The mistake can be made that we have no understanding of the wonder and specialness of existence.

"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." as Carl Sagan wrote - a humbling but not frightening thought. When you know our earth could disappear tomorrow and even our solar system would hardly notice (we have very little gravity in comparison to the gas giants) it gives you a real sense of our importance in the scheme of things! SOPHIA 21:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to say that I see nothing wrong with Bright in and of itself, what bothers me is lack of communication and apparent intolerance (and the political and broader sociological consequences of the same). Of course, religious experience is experience and thus by definition subjective--you do not experience my subjectivity, and I do not experience yours. As a Lutheran I believe that faith is itself a gift of God (single predestination), so beyond expressing my beliefs it's not up to me anyway ;) Beyond that, it all becomes rather philosophical. As I have mentioned today, I and much of Christianity have been influenced by Neoplatonism by identifying the spiritual with Plato's idealism (although this has become somewhat buried, the subtext is still there).

I find C. S. Lewis and especially Mere Christianity to be a good counterpoint to Carl Sagan. Arch O. La 22:54, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I suppose I like the idea of not being "anti" anything - just a different view. As you rightly say all we can know is what we subjectively experience. I have read C S Lewis' Mere Christianity but I always come back to the same problem - even if I would want something to be true does not make it so. SOPHIA 23:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Alright, we've both read both Sagan and Lewis and judged how well both authors correlate with our own experiences. (This is starting to sound technical). I am a genetic Lutheran, so the Force runs strong in my family. I leave it as an exercise to the reader whether the Force is the Holy Spirit or merely psychosocial. ; Arch O. La 23:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Yep - we are what we are. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong - just human! I think the main thing is to stay open minded and respectful of others - something I have seen you do in very difficult circumstances. You are one of the reasons I have bothered to edit again - there are good guys! SOPHIA 23:22, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you and welcome back! I had, however, fallen into the trap of playing the middle against both sides, expressing an opinion when I really wonder, what's the point? But welcome back. Arch O. La 23:26, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

The Uncabal=

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