User talk:Oldwindybear/archive1

Unblocked

Per our email conversation, you have been unblocked. If there is anything I can do to help you learn how Wikipedia works, please don't hesitate to ask me. -- Essjay ^{Talk • Contact} 07:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I thank you most sincerely for your kindness, and I wish to say publicaly that I owe userkatefano an apology; doubting her impartiality and sincerity was wrong morally and I am truly sorry. I am going to take her advice, and I have someone (I cannot drive, alas!) taking me to the library tuesday to get the exact page numbers for precise cites on the controversial issues in the Hamer article. In the interim, since sources are cited, (but not closely enough, which will be rectified, believe me!) i intend to change the one of the article so that it reflects teh general state of knowledge, and cannot lay open anyone to unpleasantness. Again, thank you >Essjay and please know this time i intend to ASK QUESTIONS. Kate, I hope you will still mediate, and if so, once the Hamer article is completely recited to your satisfaction, we will move at last to Bonnie and Clyde. What I would like to do is write a drat, send it to you via wikipedia email and let you examine it prior to just posting. What do you think?old windy bear 07:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC)oldwindybear[reply]

>Essjay ^{When I tried to go tone down the Hamer article, as Kate had noted, I was still blocked, Would you be kind enough to check that? Thanks! old windy bear 07:41, 16 January 2006 (UTC)oldwindybear}[reply]

Checked it, seems to have been an autoblock. Let me know if you still have problems. Essjay ^{Talk • Contact} 10:16, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I almost forgot...

Welcome! (We can't say that loud/big enough!)

Here are a few links you might find helpful:

You can sign your name on talk pages and votes by typing ~~~~; our software automatically converts it to your username and the date.

If you have any questions or problems, no matter what they are, leave me a message on my talk page.

We're so glad you're here!

File:Resilient-silver.png

The Resilient Barnstar

Oh, and this too! You deserve it for being so quick and willing to get back to good work after all the drama that went on. Good show, and congratulations! Essjay ^{Talk • Contact} 16:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another welcome

Helo Oldwindybear - I would also like to extend my welcome to you. Please let me know if there is ever anything I can help you with. Best, Johntex\^talk 17:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I humbly thank you for the welcome, and hope I can be a positive contributer...old windy bear 17:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RFC?

If you wish to raise an RFC against user PIG, perhaps that would better. Please see the new comments I added on Katefan's RFC. An archive of this is on my user page if you chose to raise an RFC on PIG. --CyclePat 23:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi --CyclePat , I have apologized to Kate, and noted that on the RFC page -- do you mean I should file an RFC against Pig? I sort of was hoping he had gone away. He has not been back lately with his personal attacks, and I had hoped to just concentrate on contributing. Your advice is welcome?old windy bear 00:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Oldwindybear - I hope all is going well. I have noticed that you have experienced some difficulties with Wikipedia. I haven't taken the time to learn the whole history - but I do not Wikipedia can be a challenging place because it can seem like we have a lot of rules and processes. I don't want to get in the middle of everything, but I noticed you removed some on your comments from Katefan0's talk page. You may not be aware of this, but deleting comments from another User's page is generally considered to be bad form. If you want to take back something you said, you can put <s> in front of your original text, and </s> after your original text. Otherwise, it is best to let the User remove comments from their own talk page. I am restoring your text to her user page. Best, Johntex\^talk 00:43, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi!>talk</thanks, and can I ask you to go look at the comments Pig left for me on the Battle of Tours? They are at teh bottom of the page. That kind of thing ought to be barred, thanks! Sorry about the comments on Kate's page, I thought they were inappropriate, my brother and I wanted to remove them, didn't know how to do it properly, sorry!old windy bear 00:45, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm not entirely sure what a user-rfc would do to PIG, and what good it would bring? (maybe it will leave a record on his user page? dunno? I've never really done a rfc-user) But at the time, after analysing the situation, I felt that you where violated. I figured that a user RFC would bring you to the bottom of the issue... (the idea of inclusion of fictional material and historical documents vs. court case material.) (he did seemingly support you after all on your information). I Looked over the rules of Wikipedia:Requests for comment. It however appears that the problem is solved with PIG and there would be no real reason for this (righ now). Also, the fact that Johntex writes that you are still editing talk pages (WHICH YOU SHOULD RARELLY, EVER DO!... unless you forgot to sign your name or something similar to that) make me ponder the situation and wonder how effective a user-rfc would be. (It may just back fire, if you where doing the same thing!) Anyway, next time something like that happens, stay cool, and ask the person to apologize. (If that fails bring it to WP:RFC request for comment (user)). Anyway... You might want to check [1] next time this issue comme up. Or why not put it there right now, under the history section Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography!!! This a place to express a quick blurb on your concerns and request comment on the "Article content disputes," that seemingly, according to me, still exist. --CyclePat 01:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--CyclePat pat, trust me, I am NOT going to do anything on anyone else's pages in the future. I did not understand all the rules, but I am getting them. I don't care about the user RFC, but do I have to have the kind of stuff he put on the bottom of the page on the talk page of the battle of tours there? That does seem to be wrong. Please advise me on how to deal with it - please note I learned already not to merely erase it! I just want to discuss facts, but this guy == well, the paragraph is virulant enough that it is best read to believe. old windy bear

Thank you for your comments. I just noticed the comments you left on my user page An archive. Generally you wouldn't edit a users page, but you where right that time! (plus you put it in the right spot... endorsements. Seemingly I think that's what you wanted to do, right?). No matter the case, I will look into Battle of Tours. (the thing that happens with wikipedia is that some people take it to seriously, some people do bad things, are not friendly and others that do care (like you and me) get into conflict. I've realized that it's hard to explain to people sometimes what you mean. (don't forget typing and talking are too different things). I could say something like: "the proper way to say apple is ...." (But because wiki is public and for the benefit of others... this may however be consider rude and embarrassing because you would be corrected in public!) (If we where talking in person I would politely correct you and we would be on with the conversation). Anyway, Il check Battle of Tours to see any discrepencies. If there are any problems I suggest you start by leaving a message on the user that is bothering you in question. Try and keep the discussion of user conduct on his or your user page discussions. (Don't forget to tell him you feel offended, and if you are unaware of the reasons, ask him? The common form (back from mentoring class):

When you do <this>, it makes me feel <this>. I would appreciate your apology. Let's solve our differences with good wikiquette and work together to keep wikipedia NPOV. <sign> (Start with that... well see after)--CyclePat 02:58, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

)--CyclePat If I did anything to offend you, it would have been inadvertantly, I assure you, and i do apologize for anything you found offensive. I look forward to your help in my learning the ropes! Yes, I was endorsing! You have my unqualified apology, and take careold windy bear 05:00, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your to kind. I forgot about that a while ago. I was wondering what you where talking about at first. (It can't be the edit to the archive on my user page) Then I though about it. Oh! ya! The time I spent to make that page. Apology accepted. Anything to try and keep wikipedia free and loving. Thank you for the apology and don't worry. I would have probably done the same thing in my early editing. I'm sure you'll get to know who the honorable people are quite fast. Best wishes, and p.s.: don't let wikipedia get to much to you. (I actually am addicted to it, and it's not healthy to be in front of the computer all the time let alone stressing out for wiki stuff! One step at a time and don't let anyone change you into something you don't want to be!). by the way(b.t.w.):Welcome to Wiki! --CyclePat 05:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attack on OldWindyBear at Talk:Battle of Tours

Dear OldWindyBear - thanks for the reply on my Talk page. I have looked into Talk:Battle of Tours and it is very clear that those comments made about you were extremely innapropriate. I have deleted them. It is unusual to delete comments from article pages, but doing so is permitted if there is something outrageous there, as there was in this case. Still, it is better that the deletion be done by an outside party, such as myself. Note also, that the comments are still there in the history of the article - practically speaking, nothing ever actually deleted on Wikipedia. Things are just removed from the current version of the page. I also researched the history of the Talk page to see who left the comments. The comments were left by an anonymous user. I have blocked that user from editing Wikipedia for 24 hours. Normally, we would issue several warnings first, but in this case I deemed the case to be clear-cut enough for an immediate block because (1) The anonymous account had made no positive contributions to Wikipedia in the past and (2) The attack was quite severe. Best, Johntex\^talk 03:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

John, may i humbly thank you for deleting those comments? I know I have made mistakes with my efforts here -- but for instance, if you look at the compliment the article on the Battle of Tours just got, I wrote much of that article and felt enormous joy at having been a part of something positive. I am determined to follow the rules, and that is why I came to the administrators, and asked them to act. I am proud of my service, and I am proud I went to school -- i was the first one in my family to go to college! Anyway, I am learning. You will NOT find me doing things I should not. You will find me trying hard to contribute. Thank you for deleting those comments. I won't lie - I had to wonder why someone would hate me so badly who did not know me. Anyway, your earlier advice, I hope you noticed, was followed. i did NOT delete or touch comments someone else wrote. I will learn the rules! Thanks again. old windy bear

Bear, I was just heading over there to take a look myself, but I see my good friend Johntex has beaten me to it. Don't fret, and keep up the good work. BTW, what I'm going to do this evening is archive my talk page, so don't worry about those comments. Bygones. Katefan0^(scribble)/mrp 03:29, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

>mrp</ Kate, I am truly sorry for those comments. You were trying to be fair, and I was wrong. I don't like to use health as an excuse, but some days are hard, and I tend to get cranky. Also, i really did not understand the rules - I think I am beginning to, I am trying! I wanted those things removed or archieved because you deserve better, and I am honestly sorry. Thank you also for heading over to look at Pig's latest. Why would he say such things? I was so proud of that article, because if you look at the history, I really did do a great deal of the research on it -- and others too, and we worked together and developed a really first rate article, fair to everyone. Welll, anyway, bygones, and thanks. You are a nice person. Did you get a chance to look at the frank hamer article? I rewrote most of it, eliminating inflamatory language, trying to cite controversial issues, and more cites are coming this week. I am really trying to contribute positively. Thanks again. old windy bear 03:35, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

<after edit conflict with both OldWindybear AND Katefan0 - geez, it took me a long time to write this, I guess>Thanks Oldwindybear - you are very welcome. I am certain you are trying hard to do the right thing. We have so many policies (which should be strictly followed), guidelines (which should usually be followed), and conventions (which people will get mad at you if you don't follow) that I know it is tough to learn the ropes. Fortunately, most of our policies and guidelines are good ones, overall. Even though it is hard to do sometimes, two of our best policies are Assume Good Faith and Don't bite the newcomers. Taken together, they mean that we will try to give the benefit of the doubt to the other user, especially new users. It can be trying sometimes because some new users are not really here to help build an encyclopedia. They may be here to promote their own agenda, to slant an article towards their own view, or even to write an article about themselves. But most new users are just trying to learn the ropes, so we try to help them. I can tell you from personal experience that Katefan0 is one of our very best, one of our very fairest administrators. She can bring the "tough love" if people are in an edit war, or if someone is trying to put stuff in an article that just doesn't beong in an encyclopedia, but if you play by the rules, she will absolutely be fair to you. Please let me know if I can do anything to help you learn about Wikipedia. Finally, for any future conflict you might have, please look over the Dispute Resolution Process. Coming to an individual like Kate or myself is always fine, but we are volunteers here just like you. We just happen to have received a vote of trust by the community to get a few extra tools. Therefore, none of us are online all the time, nor are we "responsible" for fixing each and every problem here. Going through the dispute resolution process step-by-step is the best way to ensure you are doing the right thing in any conflict. Best, Johntex\^talk 03:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Johntex thanks again John and yes, I am trying to do the right thing. Yes also that I need to read the rules, and use the guidelines in situations which arise. Thanks for the guidance. Kate is good people, and I am truly sorry I ever argued with her. Well, old men are not immune from mistakes! I will try harder. Thanks for the guidance, and I will study the rules more than I have. Take care, and have a good evening. old windy bear 03:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Military history: Coordinator elections

The Military history WikiProject is currently holding elections for project coordinators. Any member of the project may nominate themselves and all are encouraged to vote here. The elections will run until February 5.

--Loopy ^e 04:42, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're quite welcome! I think that someone of your knowledge and experience is a great asset to the project (as you've probably discovered, most of us are not formally students of history); obviously, I hope that you'll stick around regardless of what the election results may be. —Kirill Lok s hin 03:10, 24 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

>]]hin Kirill, I don't expect to win as your assistant, but originally had hoped to contribute to the project in some capacity. I think though they are going in a dirction different than where I am going, so I am probably more useful doing what I am doing -- trying to help where asked in non-military history, (except for the Carolinians, I wrote a book on that dynasty though I never could get it published!) Kirill, I don't think they want a historian, especially a military historian, which is okay, this is a democracy. I do appreciate your kind thought. I will go on to work on some other projects -- i think the whole Mongol Empire series needs to be rewritten, for instance, and leave the military history project for those who are elected. But thank you for thinking of meold windy bear 05:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

>]]hin Kirill! I don't know if you are following the current revisions on the Battle of Tours, but the tag has been removed, and Palm dogg and myself reworked the conclusions to better fit wikipedia's format, and address concerns of a user who felt the conclusions were correct, but inappropriately worded for an encyclopedia. He was right. I did the rewrite, then Palmdogg, who is quite good, split the conclusion ("After Tours") into sections, making it a great deal easier for people to see how the perception of the battle has evolved through the centuries and through the cultural matrix. Kirill, the article is almost ready for consideration as a model article. ALMOST, and I will get it finished shortly. Kirill, I was going to start from scratch with basically rewriting the whole series on the Mongol Empire, prior to the Military Coordinators election, (there are a list of issues with the current articles a mile long, which I can send you later if you wish, along with some source listings, and general thoughts -- we really, for instance, ignore the incredible impact of the two lengthy female regencies over the largest continuous land empire in history! And there is little information -- other than what I have added, on the fact that the ONLY reason Europe did not crumble under the Mongol lash is simply internal politics; Batu Khan loathed Ogedei's son, and his mother, and the feeling was mutual -- that dispute, which lingered until Mongke Khan became Great Khan, kept Batu from unleashing his army on Europe -- he had to keep it posted east, to protect him from his cousins!), but that really falls into the province of yourself and your assistants once the election is over. I also have notes I have made on edits I was starting on the Islamic wars of expansion, the Byzantine Empire, and the Carolingian Empire, if the coordinator responsible for that area is interested at all? I did greatly appreciate your vote -- I guess I have not been around long enough. I am probably going to shift to the culture wars, movies, music, and the arts, once Tours and Frank Hamer are completed. ANYWAY, i did not want to start any major projects in the Military history arena until after the election, and then, if you want my materials, I would be delighted to send them to you. Kirill, you are going to do a GREAT job. You are an amazingly gifted historian, especially for someone self taught! (though as Essjay told me once, too much is made of degrees!) You also get along well with other people. ANYWAY, again, i wanted to offer this material, if the assistant or yourself is interested once the elections are complete...old windy bear 04:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

English history

I noted your involvement with Battle of Tours and was curious about whether you have any interest in English history vis a vis the monarchy. I've just gotten ahold of a few interesting books on Henry VII/VIII and related royalty, and am currently trying to improve Margaret Tudor, which could be a much better article than it is currently. If you have any interest, pop on by. · Katefan0^(scribble)/mrp 20:01, 23 January 2006 (UTC

Katefan0<Hi Kate! YES, I have considerable interest in english history - I am a big fan of Henry II and his mad sons, including of course Richard Lion Heart, (you have to admire a guy who spends less than a year of his reign in the country, doesn't speak the language, yet last year was voted by the British public as the second greatest monarch of history!) I will pop on by, and after some research, give it a go. I am finishing the 4th book I have read on Frank Hamer and Bonnie and Clyde, and will add a book on Margaret Tudor to the library list for tomorrow. (tuesdays is the day my family takes me to the Library of Congress for research!) Thank you for thinking about me, and yes, I will be delighted to help. Did you like the work at the Battle of Tours? I am really proud of that article. I resourced it like crazy also! (I read arabic, so it was a little easier than some!) Anyway, yes, I am delighted to help, thank you for thinking about me, see you on that site! old windy bear 20:32, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Katefan0<Hi Kate! Went and looked, it does need work, i am starting with the internet sources available, while I wait to go to the Library of Congress, (like http://englishhistory.net/tudor.html) Thanks again, I will certainly do my best to help, and I am delighted and honored you asked me. Did you see I volunteered for the Military History Project? I really do want to help, and again, thank you so much for asking me! old windy bear 20:37, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You bet, glad for your help. My biggest objection with articles like this is that they're defined by their marriages. Of course in reality that was what often defined women in that age -- but there is more leeway for royalty, and I think a better biographical encyclopedia article can be created about someone like her that is actually ABOUT her, not just a laundry list of marriages. · Katefan0^(scribble)/mrp 20:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Katefan0^{[[User talk:Katefan0|(Hi Kate, I agree absolutely. When what I remember about her, she was a major player for a time in royal politics, and that needs to be emphasized rather than "she married x, and her progeny were y and z." That kind of article really objectifies women, in my opinion, and minimalizes them. I will tell you another place we need to address that -- the Mongol Empire. Twice, as I remember, women ruled for at least 3-5 years until enough Princes of the Blood could be gathered from the far corners of the Empire to elect a Great Khan. Yet we have little information on these reigns, which were EVERY BIT AS IMPORTANT AS THE KHAN'S REIGN! Anyway, I am at work on it, and will concentrate on her involvement with the royal politics of the day, which again, I believe remembering she was a MAJOR player in -- but which the current article does not reflect! THANKS for thinking of me, and letting me help! old windy bear 20:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)}[reply]

Please don't edit someone else's talk edits.

I noticed that you significantly edited another user's talk edits. [2] Please don't do that. While the user's edit was not civil, your edit was inapprporiate and equally as uncivil. Please sse WP:CIVIL. Thanks.Gator (talk) 16:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(talk) I certainly agree -- when did this occur? I had made those mistakes when I first began, and even until I was specifically given the rules. Which are you referring to? I am unware of having done so recently, since other editors laid down the rules on that -- and I was sorry for doing so. When are you referring to, please, and where? I am honestly not aware of any such edit's since the period in question. so I would knowing what you are referring to.old windy bear 16:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See diff link provided above. It was a little while ago, but you were brought to my attention by that user so I began an investigation. I don;t think anythign beyodn this warrants a response, but it wasn't reverted and I thought you should know.Gator (talk) 16:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

.Gator I was told I could not remove that -- or I would. If you have the authority to do so, I would appreciate your doing so. If you read the discussions on this page, my responses, where they were wrong, were brought to my attention, and I have corrected that. I have no problem with your bringing it to my attention. One thing the service taught me -37 years ago, can you believe it? -- is acceptance of responsibility. But if you can remove that, I would appreciate it. I don't feel such should be on the page. The discussion page, unless it is the user page, really should be for discussion of the article, which is exactly what I am trying to do. Thanks...old windy bear 16:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. I reverted it already so it says what was originally stated.Gator (talk) 16:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gator Excellent! Thank you. it will not happen again. When I first arrived on the site, I didn't make enough effort to differiniate between those who are here to contribute, and those who are here to amuse themselves, nor did I fully understand the rules. If you will look at my edits or work since, you will see the difference. I am NOT one of the users who wants only to mock or vandalize. I like to think my own little bit of knowledge may be of some use, and I appreciate any help i can get. I did see you are a marine, and as a wartime vet, I thank you for your service. I was just a grunt, but the GI bill paid for my first 2 degrees, so I did get something positive out of the Vietnam conflict other than wounds, lol. old windy bear 16:30, 25 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Congradulations Oldwindybear, I'm impressed to see you are making your way into a star wikipedian. Keep up the good work. --CyclePat 00:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CyclePat What a nice thing to say! Thank you! Before i "found wikipedia" I was finishing another degree on a scholarship, and reading history, which I have done all my life. And that was it. You, Kate, JohnTex, Kirill, Essjay, have really reached out to me, and encouraged me to use my brain -- which believe it or not remains fairly useful, despite the rest of my health not being so hot! -- and given me a purpose; to help make this the best site I can. THANK YOU for the kind words. I am truly trying. old windy bear 01:20, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

the Battles of Charles Martel

Palm dogg sorry it took so long, the book was late -- here is a good list of the battles of Charles Martel -- if you would put them in a battle box in the Charles Martel article, or the Battle of Tours, whichever you feel most appropriate! The Charlamagne list is coming, and thank you greatly for working with me. THE BATTLES OF CHARLES MARTEL:

Battle of Cologne Battle of Amblève Battle of Vincy, Battle of Tours Battle of Avignon, Battle of Nîmes, Battle of Montfrin battle of the River Berre Battle of Narbonne.

Thanks again for working with me! old windy bear 04:09, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Finished. Here's a link to the Charles Martel campaignbox. Palm_Dogg 12:59, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Palm_Dogg Excellent job! I will have Charlamagne's to you within a couple of days. You are the MAN on Campaignboxs! I will tell you two other truly great generals who need them = Belisarius, and Subutai, when you get a chance take a look. If I get the battles, will you do the boxes for them too? old windy bear 13:18, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Belisarius and Subutai are pretty awesome commanders, so I'll definitely do boxes for them. Whenever you're ready, just put them on my Talk Page. I put the Martel campaignbox on his page, as well as a personal infobox. Regarding the Military Wikiproject, this is really more of a hobby for me while I'm between jobs, so I tend to just do pages on articles I'm interested in. I may actually switch back to movies soon; I'm working on a page for one of my favorite films by Akira Kurosawa, Ran (film), plus I still have to work on Starship Troopers. Palm_Dogg 16:05, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Palm_DoggThanks, you are a pleasure to work with. Movies are a hobby of mine too! I just got an original copy (okay, orginal print on dvd) of Akira Kurosawa's treasure, Seven Samurii. Starship Troopers I hated. Where to begin? He admitted he did not read the book! They turn the real poltiical issues into jokes, no battle armour, the bugs are totally misrepresented -- I hated it. Made a mockery out of what was and is a great book that asks some pretty intense questions -- should the franchise be totally without civil duty? Why do men fight? Why should they fight? Oh well, thanks again, and I will get you the info on Charlamagne first, then Belisarius, then Subutai. You and I work well together, and I thank you!old windy bear 16:11, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I should have clarified: just the book Starship Troopers (the movie did suck). If you know of any outside literature that discusses it, I'd really appreciate it. Palm_Dogg 16:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Palm_DoggI will try to find it. I took a class in contemporary american literature in college, and Starship Troopers, the novel, was specifically discussed. I did my paper for that course on Starship Troopers! It was of course 30 years ago, but believe it or not, some of my college notebooks are at my sisters. (they were at my Mom's till she died last year) I did a 25 page paper on Starship Troopers. i cannot drive any distance anymore, but my wife promises to take me over next weekend. I am pretty sure that paper is in those notebooks, and they contained a huge numbers of references in the late 60's and early and mid 70's as the novel was very controversial then, as you know. The references would be old, but I think would be intersting to you -- the book was a hugely divisive one in collge in the 70's. In addition, I just read an article recently on it, and will try to remember where! I would have liked to have worked on the military history coordinators project, but I (like Al Gore!) just don't have the votes. Oh well, I enjoy working with you, and I can still freelance. Did you see the debate -- I was in the midst of it -- on Podkayne of Mars? Edits on that were controversial. Oh well, I promise, I will find the stuff on Starship Troopers for you.old windy bear 16:55, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome! Thanks! Palm_Dogg 20:57, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Palm_DoggMy pleasure -- I have really been trying to get the Battle of Tours issue resolved. No one really disagrees with the majority opinion, but one user wanted it worded differently. he was right in that it was confusing - and you took GREAT care of that problem. As to the paper, I will be curious what you think of my writing now compared to when I was 28! I do think it will help. I remember that paper very well, beacuse I was writing for the University newspaper, and an article got written on my presentation of it - you know, back the, there was a very strong school of thought that Heinlein was presenting a pro-facist Neo-Nazi form of government in Starship Troopers. I argued, and successfully, I proudly add, that was simplistic and wrong. NONE of the elements of the third reich were there, the camps, the political arrests -- I argued that Heinlein was arguing that the franchise should NOT be free, that civic responsibility and duty should go hand in hand with the franchise. I am not so sure he was not way ahead of his time, and absolutely right. At any rate, I gave a very heavily sourced paper arguing that, among other things. It will be my pleasure to go get it for you, and thanks again for all your help! old windy bear 21:04, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

user: Palm dogg Hey buddy! Working on Charlamagne today, and I have another to add to our list of generals, if you are interested -- Alp Arslan, the "Valiant Lion" who defeated the Byzantines at Manzikert! If he had not died quite young, he might have rivaled Alexander or Ghenghis Khan, he was that good. Interested in a campaign box for him? Also, if you need any help on the Moslem Conquest of North Africa and Battle of Carthage (698) (which is basically no article at all, just a stub, and the battle was a truly vital one, in the Byzantine loss of it's african themes!) let me know. They could both stand some expansion...AND, i will have the paper and notebook on Starship Troopers for you next weekend. Hey, I am willing to mail you those materials if you want them.old windy bear 20:26, 29 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I can do that, although it might make more sense to start out with "Battles of the Seljuk Turks" and then gradually make new campaignboxes as articles on Arslan's battles come up. I'm actually not working on those other two articles. User:Wendell asked me to take a look at them (I keep a list of articles I'm actively editing on my main page under "Projects"). Thanks for the mailing offer, but I'd probably lose them. If you've got all your original citations, just put them on the Starship Troopers page or the User:Palm dogg/Starship Troopers page I'm using for major edits. Either way, I'll figure out how to integrate them into the article. Palm_Dogg 00:08, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right -- he was the second great Sultan of the Seljuks, and we ought to start with the formation of the dynasty, and work to him. I will put together a page of projects once Tours is okayed. (that is an excellent idea, thanks!)I will start on that as soon as I get Kate's sign off on the Tours adjustments - you were a huge help on that, greatly appreciated! The Roman Empire, from Augustus to the Holy Roman Empire, via the Bzyantines, are my primary field of expertise, though I am pretty well read for an american (since I read Arabic and Greek) in the history of Islam. I will copy the citations next saturday night, and put them on the the User:Palm dogg/Starship Troopers page. Do you have any interest in my conclusions and the reasoning behind them? If so, I can shorten that part to a page or so. I literally worked an entire semester on that paper and thought it was the best I ever wrote. (and I have faith you can do better!) Thanks again for the help, and Charlamagne should be ready Wednesday. I really would have liked to have worked on the military history project, but the votes just are not there. Oh well, I will continue to freelance. Take care, and have a good week, and the citations will be posted as noted next saturday night. You are a good person, and it is a pleasure to work with you.old windy bear 02:00, 30 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of San Jacinto

Feel free to do whatever you'd like with the article, as well as the Mongol series; your expertise would be very welcome ;-)

More generally: in my experience, it's almost impossible to assign tasks to people here, so most things are done on a volunteer basis. If nobody feels like doing it, we have no real way of getting it done, unfortunately. —Kirill Lok s hin 02:26, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kirill LokHi Kirill! I will do the San Jacinto Article as soon as I finish the Battle of Tours article in toto; it is very close to being complete, and a very good article, I am proud to say. The Frank Hamer article is also winding it's way to completion with Kate's help, bless her heart. The Mongol Empire I would be reluctant to undertake until after the Military Coordinator's election is finished, and things up and running there, becuse it might well conflict -- most of that empire's history can literally be linked and almost defined by it's battles! -- with the new assistant coordinator's ideas. I had sort of figured after those elections to slip over into biographies, and (please don't laugh) literature. I prefer military history, especially the Roman Empire, Carolingian and Holy Roman Empires, the Mongols, and the period of Arab expansion. (other than the Mongol explosion onto the world stage, the period of Arab expansion is unmatched for empire building that lasted -- as you know, Alexander the Great built an empire second only to Ghenghis Khan's in size -- but with his death, it fell apart! And Kirill, reading the Arab histories in Arabic is REALLY fascinating, because it really does not accurately translate to English -- some of the concepts are so alien to our culture and mindset that translation is virtually impossible to do with great accuracy! The Arab word for "honor" for instance, carries a whole plethoria of obligations and values in that one word!) But after the elections I think I will go to literature, and biographies. (I don't see any support for my ideas in the Military coordinator's election, which is okay -- this is an election, and my ideas did not ring with the voters!) Kate had me look at Margaret Tudor's article the other night, and after doing some research on that period and the Tudors and Stuarts, I was able, I think, to add to that article substantially. I hope to do the same with others, and with articles on great books. I wish I could have helped you with the military project, but the way that is set up, it really is for the assistants to fill that role. I would have enjoyed working for you though, you are a genuinely nice person -- a rarity in today's world, I am sorry to say! Thanks again, and I will do San Jacinto, probably next week! Take care, and you will do very well with the Military project.old windy bear 02:49, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Edits

Hi - Ive noticed youve been making a lot of good edits lately and obviously have a lot of knowledge to draw from. Ive noticed many of the edits are one-liners in the lead paragraphs. I was hopeing you might consider expanding the ideas, with a section or paragraph, in the body of the article - per the MoS, the lead paragraph is supposed to be a summary of the article, and should not contain trivia or "unique" information, but be a high-level overview of the contents of the article, in effect repeating whats allready in the article summary style. That way readers get a over-view up front, if they want to read more they can drill down for more details in the article. Just a suggestion and thought to help improve overall article quality and content. --Stbalbach 15:47, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Stbalbach Hello! Thank you for the compliment on the knowledge statment, and on the quality of the edits. I had been hitting a lot of the lead paragraphs on the theory that they could draw the reader in, into articles I think are meaningful. But you are right, I need to expand on the idea or topic, and in each case, i can do so. I will begin on that today. I appreciate your pointing that out to me -- because you are absolutely right, putting a unique idea or theme in the lead paragraph and not following it up can be confusing. THANKS, and I will correct it! Your thoughts are good ones, and will definately improve the overall article quality. I appreciate your help! old windy bear 16:01, 31 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh ok great I just wanted to encourage expanding articles, which most need a lot of work, usually the lead section should be the last thing worked out, after the article is in good shape, the lead section summary writes its self pretty easily. But I understand where your coming from to make somthing more interesting. --Stbalbach 03:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Stbalbach I think you are absolutely right on expanding the articles, and two i went back and did so tonight were the edits I had made on Caliph, and Mehmed the Conquerer. I thought your point was a good one, and I went into some depth on the points I had made -- and I thougth the expansion in both cases stegthened the articles, (and I am not done!) I welcome all the help I can get in good suggestions like yours to make my edits and articles better. Thanks! old windy bear 04:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Baghdad (1258)

OWB, hope you won't mind -- I ending up making some major revisions. I consulted both the New Yorker article and a recent book on Islamic history. I removed some of the material you added, because it was anecdotal and came from older, popular books. I think recent academic references are better. This removes some of the color, but I think that enough remains to show that the rape of the city was an atrocity.

We could add the anecdotes again, if we could find the original Islamic sources, or better current sources, and if it was made clear that these were possibly legends rather than something that actually happened. Zora 08:12, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zora HI Zora, I understand the reasons for the edits. I did add more material, which was VERY carefully sourced, and will add more of the antedotes as I can source them more than with one work. (actually, before I add anything antecdotal, I will run it by you first) If you will notice, I used the Muslim historian Wassaf for much of my new material, and have sent for more. i read Arabic, so will be looking for Islamic sources, not western, before restoring anything else. I do think that readers need to know the extent of the destruction to the country as a whole -- there is no question the Mongol destruction of the canal and irrigation system turned the country into a desert overnight! Hopefully you will like the additions, becasue again, my intention is only to show the horrific extent of what Hulagu did, and it far exceded the normal Mongol sack -- remember that in the end, the city did surrender. The mongols did not have to take it entirely by force, which in the normal course of things, would call for some pillage and rape, but not entire destruction. Hulagu Khan hated the Caliph, probably because he was a symbol of a power greater than the Khans, and his feelings dictated his actions. By the way though, the material from The Mongol Warlords was published in 1998, so it is fairly modern! But I think you are right, we need Islamic sources, and I will get them.old windy bear 15:00, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zora Hey Zora, we both found Ian Frazier's article -- he estimates the casalties as between 200,000 and 1 million, Wassaf said "hundreds of thousands," and Nowich estimated 800,000.old windy bear 19:08, 2 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Historical numbers are often impressionistic. We have bureacracies that count things, and can say to the soldier how many U.S. Marines there are in a specific division. Older accounts are more on the order of ... "as far as the eye could see! There must have been 100,000 of them!" It's the same sort of problem that turns up when people give crowd estimates for demonstrations. The organizers say 100,000! and the police say 10,000! Sicker is a recent source, an academic source, and I trust him MORE than older, popularized histories.

The best way to handle this would be a list of estimates, referenced, with the date of the estimate, and whether secondary or primary source, added.

As for the irrigation -- again, instead of sparring over what's true, we need to get cites from various authorities, so that readers can see that that there's a dispute. That would be the fairest way.

I'll do what I can, but I'm over-committed at the moment. Not just Wikipedia, but Distributed Proofreaders, my Zen group, and my local Linux group. But let's see if we can put our disagreements IN the article. Zora 04:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zora Okay, sounds good to me -- I will start putting together sources that attribute the destruction of the irrigation system solely to the Mongols, and estimates of the death toll when the great sack occurred, and we can compare the source notes.

Sicker is a fairly modern source, but he is a western source, not an Islamic one, and we also need the muslim records, those which remain -- up till the great sack, the Caliphate had bureacracies which counted, as did the Roman Empire -- arguably the best sourcing. To this day, among historians, you know as I do that the best sourced work of all time remains the original "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" by Gibbons, because of his exhaustive sourcing, and I mean exhaustive, he took his entire life to travel and read old records in the original Latin or Greek, and to this day, is acknowedged as #1 in sourcing, due to his exhaustive use fo the records of the Roman bureacracies - for instance, for his citation on the size fo the Roman army at Manzikert, he literally went and found the records from that age, authorizing the particular units, their size, etc. Incredible! Sicker is okay - I have read him too, but he is not as good as Norwich, the recognized authority on the Bzyantine Empire, for instance, on original sourcing.

you are absolutely right on the impressionist problem with numbers. That is why I hesitate to attach real numbers to Carolingian armies -- even with Charlamagne, who was devoted to recreating an empire with records, they are not reliable. Most historians agree that for instance, the old Roman records are accurate -- witness again Gibbons getting the original manifests for the troop payments in Greek from Constandinople, for the army the Eastern Empire fielded at Manzikert! But lets face it, most modern historians are simply not going to go to that kind fo effort!

you are a better writer than I am, so I will gather a list of estimates and their sources, as to causalties when Hulagu Khan attacked Bagdad, and forward them to you so you can organize them as you see fit when you have time;

ditto for the irrigation system controversy; i will gather original sourcing, including Sicker, Norwich, Gibbons, -- and a number of more modern ones, like Nicolles, who only started publishing in England (he's british!) in 1990, with his last work published in 1998! Also, since this has become a very big environmental issue -- look what happens if type thing - I can look for references in the environmental science area.

Again, I want to help, not be a pain, so I will gather the materials, send them to you, and let you organize them however you want. You are an excellant writer, (not that I am bad, but your article formatting was better than mine!). If I can help on anything else, just let me know. I am a disabled vet, and have plenty of time, lol. My goal was never to "spar" with you, but help where I could in making it a great article. You do good work, and I would be delighted to help gather information via sourcing anywhere else if you let me know where and what. old windy bear 13:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Consistency

Amazing work! It looks to be quickly developing into a very good article.

We do, incidentally, have a recommended structure for battle articles (see the "Article structure" section of the project page); obviously, some deviation from this is to be expected, particularly in larger and better-developed articles, but I think it makes for a good starting point. The obvious problem is not a lack of design but a lack of workforce; our worklist (which has only recently been created) shows quite clearly our overall weakness.

Speaking of the worklist, incidentally, we're somewhat short on Roman and medieval battles. Since you're a historian, perhaps you could provide some advice as to which ones are more "important" to work on? —Kirill Lok s hin 01:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kirill LokThank you very much for the kind words on the article on Ain Jalut -- I am sorry I did not know we had a recommended structure for battle articles -- but I do now and will adhere to it in finishing up Ain Jalut. The article is beginning to take shape -- and Kirill, it demonstrates, I hope, what I had wanted to do if I had able to be your assistant. Show why the battle happened, what led to it, what was happening historically, then the battle itself, then the aftermath -- with some reverberating through the centuries, literally! I wish I had made the assistant position -simply because I really do believe I could have helped you. The Roman list will be HUGE because of the time frame we are talking about. The Republic had 200 years of significant warfare (including Hannibal and the Carthigian struggles) 450 years of empire in the west, and 1100 more in the East. Nonetheless, as a military historian, these are the 10 most critical -- in my opinion, and I can back it up with Gibbons, Norwich, et al -- Roman battles, defining "Roman" as republic, united empire, and separate empires, west, and then East alone:

1) Scipio Africanus in 204 BC forced Hannibal to return to Carthage, where Scipio defeated him at Zama (202 BC)- this defeat assured the ascendency of Rome as the paramount power in the centuries to come, and marked the onset of the end for Carthage as an independant power.
2) Spartacus was killed in the battle of the river Silarus, putting down a slave rebellion which required the entire might of the empire to put it down, and caused the creation of the first Triumvirate. Pompey aligned himself with Julius Caesar and Marcus Crassus in the First Triumvirate in 70 B.C. -- this political alignment finished what Sulla had started, effectively ending the Roman Republic, and setting the stage for the Empire, though trappings of a republic existed till Augustus became the first emperor after the era of the Second Triumvirate and subsequent wars.
3) Battle of the Teutoburg Forest (A.D. 9), an alliance of Germanic tribes led by Arminius ambushed and wiped out three Legions of unsuspecting Roman allies. The battle established the Rhine as the boundary of the Roman Empire for the next few hundred years, until the decline of the Roman influence in the West. The defeat was so traumatic for Augustus he ceased wars of expansion -- and set in motion inevitable problems for the Empire beyond the Rhine.
4) Battle of Milvian Bridge, October 28, 312. Though Constantine the Great was not baptized until he was on his deathbed, his conversion, according to official Christian sources, was the immediate result of an omen before his victory in the battle. This battle, and the aftermath, made christinity the official religion of the Roman Empire and assured the establishment of the christian faith as a world force.
5) The sack of Rome by Alaric on August 24, 410, Alaric and his Visigoths burst in by the Salarian gate on the northeast of the city. She who had been mistress of the world now lay at the feet of foreign enemies. Ironically, savaging Rome had never been Alaric's ambition. He saw the greatness of the civilization of the Empire, and a place in it for his people. If they had given him that, history would have been at temporarily different. (whether an infusion of new blood would have reversed the decline is highly unlikely, but it might have delayed it as much as another century!) This really was the day the Roman Empire of the West died.
6) The Battle of Chalons - Aetius assured his place in history by defeating Attilia the Hun in the only defeat the Scourge of God ever suffered, and though our article disagrees -- and I have not edited it --Gibbons, Creasy, all the great historians agree this battle was one of the 15 most important of history. It assured the continuence of Bzyantium, as Attila for the remainder of his life looked west, and thus assured the Empire of the East would go on.
7) The Bzyantine Empire survives sieges of Constantinople in 717-18 AD, which, if successful, would have ended the Eastern Empire, and assured world ascendancy for Islam.
8) Battle of Manzikert occurred on August 26, 1071 between the Byzantine Empire and Seljuk Turkish forces led by Alp Arslan, resulting in the defeat of the Byzantine Empire and the capture of Emperor Romanus IV Diogenes, and in the long term, assured the loss of the anatolian heartland of the Bzyantine Empire, and it's fall.
9) The Fourth Crusade (1202–1204), originally designed to conquer Jerusalem by taking Egypt first, instead, in 1204, conquered and sacked the Orthodox Christian city of Constantinople, capital of the Byzantine Empire, establishing a shadow Latin Empire for 59 years, and ended what was left of the real Eastern Empire, though a shadow would remain for another 190 years.

10) The Fall of Constantinople came after a two-month siege by Mehmed II on May 29, 1453.

the loss of the Mother of Cities, showed the West how dangerous the Ottomans were and foretold centuries of strife with them. I would start with these ten, though the seige of Constandinople is not one battle, but it's importance historically should render it in the military project. These ten were picked out of a lsit of over 100 for the greatest impact militarily and culturally.

Medivial Battles: We can start with the Carolingians, and go from there.

NOTE: THIS LIST DOES NOT INCLUDE BATTLES OF THE ROMAN ERA, WHICH, IN THE CASE OF MANZIKERT, WOULD MAKE THE MEDIVIAL LIST ALSO!

1) Battle of Toulouse; a stunning upset victory in 721 by Duke Eudes gave Charles Martel badly needed time to build the veteran army which would stand him in such good stead at Tours, 11 years later, when he turned back the most serious attempt Islam ever made during the height of the Islamic Expansion Era at taking Europe, as it conquered the remains of the Roman and Persian Empire.
2) Battle of Tours -- turned back the most serious attempt Islam ever made during the height of the Islamic Expansion Era at taking Europe, as it conquered the remains of the Roman and Persian Empire.
3) Battle of Narbonne in 759 Pippin the Short retakes the last Islamic outpost on this side of the Pyrenees
4) In 778, Charlamagne led the Neustrian army across the Western Pyrenees, while the Austrasians, Lombards, and Burgundians passed over the Eastern Pyrenees. The armies met at Zaragoza and received the homage of Soloman ibn al-Arabi and Kasmin ibn Yusuf, the Moorish rulers. Zaragoza did not fall soon enough for Charles, however. He could not trust the Moors, nor the Basques, whom he had subdued by conquering Pamplona and Barelona, establishing the Marca Hispanica across the Pyrenees in part of what today is Catalonia, reconquering Girona in 785 and Barcelona in 801. This formed a permanent buffer zone against Islam, which became the basis, along with the King of Asturias, named Pelayo (718-737, who started his fight against the Moors in the mountains of Covadonga 722) and his descendants, for the Reconquista until all of the Muslims were expelled from Iberia. (though this is a series of battles, it is one campaign with a great many minor battles, but huge historial significance -- he left Frankish outposts in Iberia, the Moors never again came into Europe proper, and started the Reconquista.
5) Battle of Hastings on the morning of Saturday, October 14, 1066, Duke William of Normandy killed Harold, last Saxon King of England, and assured the mixture of Norman and Saxon which would produce Imperial Great Britain down through the centuries.

These are just five medivial battles, just enough to give you an idea of what I look for -- great historical significance in the aftermath -- what it caused decades, CENTURIES, down the road!

I hesitate to offer advice, but I would split the Roman Era Battles thusly:

First, a list of ten most important battles of the Roman Era in toto, as noted above, then split as follows with secondary lists of:
1) 10 most important for Rome, the Republic
2)10 most important for Rome, East or West; while one Empire
3)10 most important for Rome, East Empire
4) 10 most important for Rome, West Empire (I can provide all the above)

The medivial era, I would split among the Carolingians, and Ottonians, (the Carolingians down to Otto the Great, the Holy Roman Empire, and developing France and Germany, the English wars of conquest on the continant, and finally, central European wars, including Poland, Hungary, et al.

The Mongol Era deserves a whole separate section, and Ain Jalut is the most important battle to be totally unknown, just about, in the west. You don't read about it in American schools, but it probably determined the fate of the world, in that it clearly is the moment the Mongols began imploding. Just some thoughts! I wish you all the best, and wish I had been able to help. You are a really nice person, and would have been fun to work with and for.old windy bear 18:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Kirill_Lokshin"

Thank you!

I would like to thank you for your support for my candidacy for the Military history WikiProject coordinator position. I am now the Lead Coordinator, and I intend to do my best to continue improving the project. If you ever have any questions or concerns regarding my actions, or simply new ideas for the project, be sure to let me know! —Kirill Lok s hin 00:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kirill Lok Kirill, you will do a great job, and I congratulate you! I supported you because you are the best person for the job, and will do a great job. I assume the two asssistant coordinator positions went to Loppy and Miborovsky? Would you or either of them be interested in the notes I had put together on rewriting the entire series of Articles on the Mongol Empire? (I was also working on Batu Khan's article, and was going to proceed from there after I finished that article and of course The Battle of Ain Jalut). Kirill, what did you think of my suggestions on the battles of the Roman Republic/Empire/Bzyantine Empire, and dividing the medivial world between the west, and basically the Islamic world, and then the Mongol era? I was really curious what you thought of my ideas on Rome, and the history framework I suggested, and the 10 I selected as being so vital as needing immediate attention. I really would like your opinion on that! Take care, and again, you will do a great job. old windy bear 00:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, it seems like you're the only member of the project with a strong interest in the Mongol Empire, so I think you should hold on to the notes for now; if anyone else drops by, we'll direct them to you.

I generally agree with your other comments. Most of the battles you mentioned have already been added to the worklist; I'll add the remaining ones shortly. As I said earlier, though, the major problem at this point is manpower; I suspect that this project will still have plenty of work to do a year from now ;-) —Kirill Lok s hin 00:38, 6

February 2006 (UTC)

Kirill Lok Kirill, I wish I could have kept working on the project, but i felt the voters spoke, and they didn't want my work or the type of article (more comprehensive, emphasizing the social and cultural influences of the battle as well as simply who beat who). I will miss doing the military history work, especially since that was my field, (not that I will drop it completely, I will monitor the articles I felt I basically wrote), but I will move on to literature and general entertainment. I will honestly miss working with you also. I wish I had been given an opportunity to assist you, I really felt I could have done so. WELL, the voters have spoken! I am surprised I am the only member who was interested in the Mongol Empire -- Lord, it shattered the existing order, and altered Islam, especially, forever, in addition to being an incredible influence in shaping Russia! I am afraid we are really centered on Rome, for instance, to the detriment of (for instance) the Caliphate, and the Mongol Empire. Did you think it is because most of our members are american, and american schools relatively ignore other cultures in favor of Rome as the overriding cultural and historical power? Anyway, take care. I am very happy for you, and sorry I could not help.old windy bear 00:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kirill Lok Kirill, I forgot, I also had begun to gather materials for a comprehensive rewrite of the Roman Era battles -- whichever assistant is taking over, or yourself, might find them interesting. I had Gibbons original "Decline and Fall" in it's full (unbelievably lengthy and sourced), all of Norwich and Bernard Lewis's works, (some of Lewis's historical work on Islam does bear on the Byzantines, in particular), and 20 other various books on Rome. (believe it or not I have 2,000 books at home, 200 of which are pure military history, others, like Gibbons, a mix of military and cultural) What I had sent for was a thesis I helped a friend with many years ago on the Roman Empire where she concentrated on the military evolution of the empire, in particular, on the shift over the centuries from citizen raised legions to barbarian mercenary legions, etc. (she still had it, and with the notes and sourcing cites and quotes in the notes, it was a notebook of over 250 pages! I remember it well, as I did much of the research for her!) I think it would be incredibly useful when it gets here, and would gladly forward it to whoever is going to be working on Roman battles. old windy bear 01:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings Military Projects Coordinator!

Greetings Military Project Coordinator!

Congratulations again. I sent you a message - which you may not have had time to answer - on my notes on the Roman Era, and materials I had sent for on it, which I would gladly forward to whichever assistant you have assigned to that task.

On the Mongols, I am finishing up the work I was doing, and wanted you to look at Mongol Military Tactics and Organization, which I reorganized, put in categories, sourced, rewrote where necessasry, and I think you will find that it now makes a nice edition to the military project. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_military_tactics_and_organization#Conclusion

Also, I had on my list the Mongol invasion of Europe, which was also tagged, and rightly so. I also reorganized that article, put in categories, sourced, rewrote where necessasry, and I think you will find that it now makes a nice edition to the military project also, if you wish to check it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_europe

Neither article was sourced at all when i got them. Fortunately, I have all those books in my own library, was able to check, do sourcing, set up references, and wanted to let you know so you could check them. I am also finishing Ain Jalut before I go. Again, the Roman Era materials I sent for would be valuable (along with the standards, Gibbons, Norwich, Runican, et al, all of which I have also) for the expansion of the battles of macrohistorial importance during the Roman Era.

Take care, Kirill, and hope you like the "new look" on Mongol Military tactics and organization, and Mongol Invasion of Europe -- I cleaned both up, plus the article on Batu Khan. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_Khan -- this one needed sourcing and references also, and I took care of that, and they are all legitimate) Let me know on this Roman stuff.

Respectfully, old windy bear 21:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it might be best for you to hold on to your notes for the time being; we haven't really had time to set anything formal up yet. Alternately, you could put them on a personal subpage (like this one) and we could take a look at them when we're ready to work on the material.

On another note, great work on the Mongol articles! I hope you find time to do some more work in that area on occasion, even if most of your editing will be on other topics. 23:36, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

User:Kirill Lokshin Hi Kirill! First, thank you for the kind comments on the work done on the Mongol articles. I am pleased myself. I have been VERY careful to source everything, and I honestly believe they are well written, imformative, and fit into a general group of articles I hope to eventually finish on the Mongol Era, the Pax Mongolica, and the later Nomad Invasions, primarily Timur the Lame, (Tamerlane). I appreciated your thinking of me to continue working in that area, which I will discuss shortly, after I explain why I cannot put the Roman info online easily. Kirill, the only problem with putting the Roman info I sent for on a sub page it is over a hundred pages of notes and source information, some of it in Greek and Latin. (I read both, but a lot of historians don't) A thought occurred to me, and I humbly offer it to you. I like you as a person, (our interaction on wikipedia has certainly been pleasant!) and want you to succeed as Military Projects Coordinator. I am a military historian. True, I am not limited to interest in one area - witness my edits in the article on Spike, (of Buffy and Angel fame!), but I am best suited by training to work in military history. While I am disabled physically, I have a huge personal library, much of it military history, and a good working knowledge of the subject. What i don't know, I can certainly find out, as I am a good researcher. I have the library of congress nearby, and am on good terms with a number of professors at the local universities. Would you be interested in letting me just work for you directly on projects in military history? For instance, if you could use me, you could direct me to either finish editing all the Mongol Era articles, and try to link them in a series of articles that provides our readers with a good grasp of the historical events, the personalities, the military tactics -- and why they were so unstoppable world wide -- and the battles, in context with the times. OR, you could shift me tonight to work on Rome, and merely tell me what you wanted me to do, and I would set out to do it, to the best of my ability.m Seriously, if you think Rome is a greater priority, and would like to have me on your team, tell me what you want done, and I will do it, and finish the Mongol project when there is time. If I work for you, I will work on what you feel is most important, period, and other projects when there is time. Well, I wanted to at least offer my assistance. I felt at the elections that people did not want my work here, but perhaps that was an incorrect way to assess it. I leave it to you. If you feel I could be of value, tell me what you want me to do, and I will proceed on it as swiftly as possible. If not, I understand, and will go on over to edit the Buffyverse! old windy bear 01:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's an extremely generous offer; thank you! I obviously don't want to force you into working on military history if you'd rather be editing something else; but if you don't mind, I could certainly use your help.

As far as what's more important: our coverage of both Mongol and Roman military history is pretty sparse (most of the Roman battles, except for a few from the Second Punic War, are merely stubs). I would suggest getting the Mongol articles fleshed out first—there are very few other Wikipedians working in that field—and then moving on to the various Roman articles as time permits. The order in which you might approach the various articles in these areas is entirely up to you; given that both of them are rather outside my particular area of interest, you'll be in a better position to evaluate which events are more important. —Kirill Lok s hin 02:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User:Kirill LokshinKirill, I am honored to work for you, and my expertise is in military history. Besides, you are a truly nice person, and it is a genuine honor to work for you. I will go ahead, since you have directed it, and finish the group of Mongol Era articles, which should not take more than 10 days to finish, as I have all the materials I need already. Would you like me then to literally start at the beginning, and begin with the battles of the Roman Republic, which began to become macrohistorical with the First Punic War. I would start there, work through the second Punic war, and then down to Sulla. Caesar and Pompey will require a HUGE amount of work, as will Sulla -- but I will have the materials on them here also. If this is what you want me to do, merely say the word, and that is what I will do. By the 18th I will be done with the Mongol Era articles and begin work with the Roman Republic and work my way literally to the Empire.old windy bear 03:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds great! —Kirill Lok s hin 03:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kirill Lok Kirill, I am at your disposal. Unless I hear differently, I will go ahead and finish the Mongol Series of Articles, then begin literally from the early years of the expanding Roman Republic. In the interim, if you need me to do something else, just instruct me, and I will switch and take care of that at once. old windy bear 03:31, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kirill Lok Kirill, HI Boss! Today I worked on the Battle of Legnitz, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnica. I also did Hulagu Khan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulagu_Khan I did the same things, put in categories, divided the article into sections as policy calls for, sourced, and listed references, and external links. Too more mongol articles done! Meantime, user 130.113.128.11, who has vandalized before, repeatedly, changed the battlebox numbers with no sourcing or references, just vandalizing, in the article on Ain Jalut, and I reversed it, but wanted to ask you to take a look at stopping this user, who has not done good edit yet, and whose purpose seems solely to vandalize.(what is wrong with people who seem to have nothing better to do than vandalize!old windy bear 01:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work! I'll try to keep an eye on the vandal; I suspect many of them have a (terribly misguided) impression that they can be the next Herostratus by meddling with Wikipedia. —Kirill Lok s hin 01:59, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kirill Lok Kirill, I am glad you are pleased with the work on the Mongol articles, and I will be done with the whole series on time, as we discussed, and get to work on the Roman Era. I don't understand these vandals; why change numbers in a battle box when you don't even make the attempt to source the change, it is not backed by ANY emphirical historical evidence, and makes no sense! But you are doubtless right, many of them have a (terribly misguided) impression that they can be the next Herostratus by meddling with Wikipedia. Well, I will leave monitoring them to you, and keep working! Take care, and I will on Rome by next week. (again, though, I stress if you need me somewhere else, just tell me!) old windy bear 02:51, 8 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kirill Lok Kirill,I finished revising Ogedei Khan today, if you would be so kind as to check that, did the same things, added material, put it in sections appropriately, and heavily sourced, and added references, categories, and external links. The article is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96gedei_Khan I should be done with the remainder of the Khans, Mongol battles, and whole Mongol Empire section by next week, and at work on the Roman Republic, if you approve the work done on the Mongols. I also had to stop today and change some wording in the Bonnie and Clyde article. Users were attacking Kate for alleged errors, which really were wording issues. I tried to reword where possible to alleviate the problems. We also had the normal vandalizing. I don't understand why people waste their time fouling up a great project! Thanks! old windy bear 02:46, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good (keep in mind, of course, that your knowledge of Mongol history is rather better than mine, so my comments are of a general character). You shouldn't feel obligated to write daily status reports, incidentally; I'm sure you have many more interesting things to do ;-) —Kirill Lok s hin 02:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

hin Thanks Kirill -- instead of bothering you with daily status reports, I wll just report to you when the entire Mongol Empire Era revision is wrapped up, and I am starting on Rome. That way you only get one report, with all the work listed, (since it is all basically related to the military history project -- heck, the Mongol Empire was solely a military empire from start to finish!). Take care, old windy bear 04:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vandal

Hello! I've warned the person. Let me know if they continue to vandalize. (Still haven't made it back to Margaret Tudor, just no time lately. Am about to make a quick trip over to Frank Hamer in a bit.) BTW, I was in a cab yesterday and we drove past the Vietnam memorial here in DC, made me think about you. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 20:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Katefan0Hi Kate! thanks for thinking about me. I have been there just once, and cried so hard that my wife had to wheel me away. I thought of my lost brothers, dead all these years, and for what? I remembered being spit on in National Airport, coming in for rehab at Walter Reed. Hard times! Has anyone told you you are a genuinely nice person, if not, allow me to do so! I hope you do like what i did with Margaret Tudor, and if you feel it needs more, merely say so, and it is done! I am mostly in Military Projects these days, but i am at your disposal Ma'am! Why Kate, why, did they send 54,000 of us to die, for nothing, and 300,000 busted up for life, why? I have not figured that out in 36 years and it haunts me. But thank you again for the kind thought. You are a genuinely good human being. As for that user, they just vandalized Bonnie and Clyde -- I corrected the vandalism, and then went to you. Why are people so venal as to interfere with a project like this, that just promises good for all? old windy bear 20:48, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just came back. I see Katefan0 has warned them and they haven't been editing for 5 hours so it should be OK now. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 20:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(Talk) Thanks! Kate is taking care of it -- what I don't understand, is why someone would simply waste their time and everyone elses by sheer vandalism...old windy bear 20:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can't answer that without resorting to personal attacks on the people who vandalize. Cheers. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 21:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CambridgeBayWeather I understand (your stance, not the vandalism). I believe in this project -- it is not cheap talk, it means a disabled vet (me) gets up every day and works for free because I believe that Jimbo has an idea that means we can offer all the globe the greatest accumulation of knowledge, ever, period. For me, it means what skills i have left have a positive place to contribute. I do not understand those who would waste your time, or mine, with needless, stupid, vandalism. For what it is worth, you and Kate, the staff, who also volunteer, have my admiration. I try to contribute, and just scratch my head otherwise...Thanks for replying though, I appreciate the prompt and caring response.old windy bear 22:04, 7 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for letting me know. It looks like Wiki alf took care of him. Best, Tom Harrison ^Talk 19:52, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tom Harrison Thanks Tom - I worked for an hour to get the article back to normal -- we have worked for months to get an article that everyone was comfortable with, and some crazy school site destroys it in minutes! I don't understand people...thanks for responding! old windy bear 19:56, 9 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Analisys

Hi Oldwindybear. I'm actually a little busy right now with deadlines at work and a possible pneumonia that may be starting. I'm sorry. I don't have as much time as I did the first time we met. I'm sure you can manage to keep your cool all while advocating the rights of wiki policy. When I have the time I will check out. 68.156.240.30 (I just checked it out. And it looks like he is a minimal vandalist). It also looks like he has been warned. If you have any specific concerns please ask me. As for rewording. Well, I can only say that a lot of people that contribute to wikipedia prefer to keep their wording. It's a POV (or fact within a POV) that they have figured out and they feel like they have added something. When you remove change the wording or the new sentence, the first impression is surprise. Then it's questioning... did I do it right? The once they realize it virtually the same thing or somewhat dissimilar (but with about the same meaning) they get mad. The good thing about wiki is that we can all work together to have better righting skills and everything can improve. The bad thing about wikipedia is that we can also work against each other. Well that's my scope on that. Will you please pray for my good health! Thank you. --CyclePat 03:09, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CyclePat Pat, you are a thoroughly decent person whose health I will gladly pray for. I honestly tried on the Bonnie and Clyde article to address the folks concerns by quoting directly from the sources -- yes, you are right, they will still probably be mad, but this is one of those that I believe (having learned a little about wikipedia!) that we just printed the facts, and folks will have to reach their own conclusions about what the result of those facts were. Actually, the wording they objected to was mine, so I changed my own wording, not theirs. I have learned, and am not mad, I am honestly trying to present a dispassionate article based on very very thorough research. (I am now the proud owner of every single book ever written about Bonnie and Clyde!) I changed my own wording trying to work with them, and make the article -- as you suggested, direct quotes from sources, and more dispassionate language. I thought the end result was what they wanted, but you never know! You are probably right -- they won't like the changes either! Sheesh! PAT, YOU ARE GOOD PEOPLE, AND YOU TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF!!!!!!!old windy bear 03:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Martel

It is interesting that, at the beginning of his career, Charles Martel had to raise on Clotaire IV as king, but by 737 there was no need to appoint a successor to Theuderic IV. Clearly, his reign completely changed the dynamics of rulership in Francia, the hallowed Merovingian line was necessary to legitimise his authority early on, but his fighting on behalf of the nation and Christendom apparently changed this, he had legitimised his own rule himself and no king was needed. His sons may have feared that they had not yet proved themselves when they appointed Childeric III in 742. Pepin's assumption of the title of king in 751 was probably an attempt to make the power won by he and his ancestors perminent for his descendants. Srnec 21:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Srnec I believe you are absolutely right. At the beginning of his reign, Charles depended on Kings, but by 720, he was making them. He never felt thereafter that he needed a title -- he had the power. And yes, I think you are absolutely correct that after Tours, and the Church's turnaround, with the Pope appealing to him for the protection of the Frankish Army, and the mantle of Christiandom's champion, he never felt the need for a title. Heck, lets face it, 1300 years later, people still hail him as Christiandom's savior! His son, without those accomplishments, doubtless was more comfortable with the title in addition to what power his father had left him and also was probably an attempt to make the power won by his ancestors permenant for his descendants. Did you like the more detailed section I inserted to cover the issues you raised? old windy bear 22:21, 12 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I like the section. It completely covers the pre-Tours events I was referring to. I added links and removed some redundancy (the whole article needs to be vetted for consistency and redundancy, it went from a short article to long one quickly). The "After Tours" section needs more substance and a "Legacy" section should be added to the end of the entire article. Srnec 03:54, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Srnec Thanks, for the words on the section -- thanks for seeing it was needed!And thanks for your superb editing and writing. I will vett it for consistency and redundency both, and add a legacy section (moving some of the items like the "he who has the power," et al). Isn't Martel a fascinating figure in history? Martel really changed the face of Europe more than any single ruler since the fall of Rome, much more than his grandson, who -- and I am not deinerating Charlemagne -- used the superb army given to him by his father, which was formed under his grandfather. Also, despite it taking 18 battles to fully subdue the Saxons and bring them fully into the Frankish realm, the truth is, Charles Martel could have done it had he not been wise enough to see that keeping the nose of the Moorish Camel out of his Gaulish tent, was far more important than expanding his realm in the marches. And as you noted, he was in many ways a study in contradictions. he insisted on absolute power, yet never cared about the appearance of having it! He lived relatively humbly, maintained no court, and yet both created a true frankish empire that his descendants would forge into the countries of France and Germany, laid the groundwork for the Holy Roman Empire, and stopped the Caliphate when it was at the height of it's prowess, and able to field a far superior army in terms of arms and armour. But he had that ability to inspire men, and the vision to use them correctly. Fascinating...old windy bear 04:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Charles Martel

I just looked over it today; great work! (As good as anything outside a book is not that difficult, unfortunately; medieval history is sadly underrepresented on the Internet.) —Kirill Lok s hin 00:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Kirill Lok thanks a lot Kirill! I am really trying to make the military project BETTER than a book! I had worked on Martel and Tours quite a bit as you know, and reading recent issues and edits, had to clean it up. I was delighted you liked it! The whole Mongol Empire Era revision is going well, and I will be on Rome by next week at the latest. Take care, and thank you for taking time to write me, like anyone else, it is nice when someone appreciates your work. And I actually really work on these; I not only buy my own books, but I read every book the library has, and send for those it does not. ANYWAY, THANKS AGAIN, AND TAKE CARE AND HAVE A WONDERFUL WEEK! old windy bear 02:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Trolling

Actually, he was editing my comments, and so I reverted them. Then he posted as this "TruPatriot" -- of course, he was winding you up all along. The people who suddenly came to post in support of you, that was him, too, trying to be cute by misspelling lots of things in the messages. Anyway, I've just blocked him for a month, and will block on sight any of his sockpuppets as well. There's no reason why anybody should have to deal with that kind of behavior. Just ignore it going forward. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 01:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Katefan0 you would think at 55 that i would be smart enough to see him doing it, but i was not. I suppose I am a basically simple person -- I just post as me, and if it is wrong, someone will correct it. This guy is particularly viscious. I believe Jerry Dorsen and Pig are the same person. Well, thanks Kate. If you look at my work in the military project, Kirill will tell you I have actually made a positive difference. I really do try! Thanks for covering my back. I am not the kind of person to create endless personnas and sock puppets --Kate, what is WRONG with these people????? THANKS AGAIN...old windy bear 02:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing wrong with assuming the best of folks. =) As for what's wrong with these people -- vandals seem to me to be some combination of bored, spoiled, awkward, mean, immature, low self-esteem, take your pick. · Katefan0^(scribble)/poll 02:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(scribble) Thanks Kate. You know the strange thing? It just never occurs to me to play their games. I am what I am. I have my faults, but I try, and I would never think of all this deviousness. Hey, for what it is worth, working with wikipedia would be worth it just to meet folks like you and Cycle Pat! Thanks, they had me a little beat down tonight...old windy bear 03:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A word of encouragement!

I think you are on your way toward becoming an administrator. Give it a little more time... But I usually get a good fealing for these things. Keep up the good work and keep reading in on wikipolicy. --CyclePat 03:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

b.t.w. Thank you for the words of encouragement and prayer while I was sick. I'm feeling much better! (for the last few days now!) --CyclePat 03:18, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CyclePat Pat, you are a thoroughly decent guy, and I hope you feel better. I am really trying to do good work,and not get drawn into the craziness that the sock puppets and all that dsiplay. I am truly trying to contribute good things -- ask Kirill or Kate, (but I am sure you know, you usually are one step ahead!). Seriously, I hope you feel better. You are good people. And THANK YOU for the words of encouragement - tonight i needed them! [User:Oldwindybear|old windy bear]] 03:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RE

User:216.8.14.146 You amuse me, though I regret the time Kate and good users have to waste answering people of your ilk. I laugh at you any time I log in, mostly sadly, that you waste a half decent intellect, and then more with amusement, because I saw plenty like you during the war, mostly when they were crying and begging. You would crawl like a baby if forced to actually stand on your own name. Kate is a good soul, and myself? I have nothing but contempt for a coward that hides behind anonymous im's and whines, whines, whines. You have no true credentials of your own, so you make up some, and then cry and attack - without ever using your name -- those of us who are trying to work on making things better. You amuse me, abeit sadly, in that the internet allows the true cowards of the world to hide behind anonymous im's and brag about it! You actually brag about shifting addresses and hiding as though it somehow was a distinction! Amazing. Kate nailed it on the head when she said (when I asked what makes sick puppies like you operate): "As for what's wrong with these people -- vandals seem to me to be some combination of bored, spoiled, awkward, mean, immature, low self-esteem, take your pick." I say again, if you have something to say to me, say it to me, instead of wasting wikipedia space to do it in. Use that petty little mind to actually work on articles, instead of crying how bad they are. Do something positive, if you understand how. I am now ignoring you from this moment on. As to your snearing comment, why yes, I consider working on wikipedia an honor, and the editors have earned respect, as Kate has, by hard work, and real effort. Try it sometime. old windy bear 01:42, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

frank hamer

Sir, if you check that article, a user you had warned if they committed one more act of vandalism, did so again, repeatedly, after your warning. It would be greatly appreciate if you dealt with them, since the rest of us are trying to write good articles. Thanks! old windy bear 03:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What user, what article, also I am not an admin, so I dont know what you want me to do as I can't block them. --Adam1213 Talk + 05:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

dam1213 205.188.116.200 is the user, and the article is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Hamer i don't know what their problem is!old windy bear 11:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Martel

Thankyou. I vetted your newest additions for minor spelling and grammatical errors and added a small intro to the Legacy section. I was hoping to add some more quotes on his legacy from Henri Pirenne and maybe even some quotes from the primary sources of his time, but I'll do that later. The references and external links sections could be edited for consistency, but that's minor. If you are aware of any images in the public domain to add, please do. It could use some more, eh? Overall, it could use some more checking over for consistency and redundancy. This article probably deserves to be tagged as "good" by now and is rapidly on its way to featured article level. Srnec 00:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Srnec Thank you to you also! We have worked together well, and produced an article that is already sufficient to mark as good! I had hoped to add an additional quote from Gibbons, and another from the Arab Chronicles of the time. I will look for another image. Seriously, wasn't he an incredible man? His military achievements alone merit the title of greatness, but they were not the total of the man. He was able to resist the urge to conquer to the east, while the threat lay in the west, even if it meant less immediate reward. He cared naught for titles, as you so eloquently pointed out, yet used his power for enormous good. I am not seeking to say he was perfect - history says he tolerated fools poorly, and the burdens of defending christianity cut his life short with the stress. But if the measure of greatness is seeing a larger goal than personal enrichment, Martel earned the title "great," because history, western and eastern, says that he saw a clear danger to his children and their children, and chose to meet it, and defeat it, when the odds said he could simply not do it. And then he stole their weapons and armour, and (as you well know!) Then by his grandson's day, the basis of his army was his legendary paladins, knights, with weapons and armour taken straight from the Arabs and improved on with the addition of the buckler! Then he was the man who set the political and economic institutions in place that kept the Carolingian Empire running another century and a half! Srnec, I will try and find my quotes, but instead of just inserting them, will run them by you, and see how they fit in the total article you basically rewrote. And a fine job you did! Thanks! old windy bear 01:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Martel must be regarded as the greatest general of Western Europe between the fall of Rome and the rise of Charlemagne, though he probably exceeded the latter in generalship. He was an administrator and the true father of the Carolingian Dynasty also, but a military commander first and foremost. He also showed commendable prescience in fighting the Moslem menace when he, as his family before and after him, would certainly have preferred to deal with the Saxons so close to his own homeland. The macrohistorical importance of Charle Martel as an actor on the world's stage is almost undeniable: he is the primary father of feudalism, the greatest general of the Dark Ages, the saviour of Christendom (and all its unique values), a military reformer of the first rate (as the father of Western heavy cavalry), the founder of his dynasty's royal pretensions, the supporter of the German missions, and the unifier of Frankland. In many ways he is more impressive than Charlemagne, but he has his faults. His despoiling of church property may be justified on utilitarian terms using hindsight (it was even beneficial for the churh in the long run), but it was undoubtedly unjust and only his heroics on behalf of the Church at Tours and Narbonne could have resuscitated any figure who committed such thefts. Fortunately for him, he was such a hero. Also, though he bequeathed the state which allowed for Pepin the Short's coronation as king and Charlemagne's as emperor, he did not complete the work and left it to them to expend the energies he expended on military matters. This is not so much a fault as a mere lacking. By necessity, he less an administrator, lawgiver, reorganiser, and statesman than many others, but more of a true general, even a strategist (so rare for that time). Have you read Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson? It describes Tours and its antecedents and (macrohistorical) legacy in detail, though the author has a thesis (a good one, in my opinion) he is defending. I have read Santosuosso's work which you have referenced in this article and the Battle of Tours one. Martel is one of the "Great Men" of history. Srnec

05:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

SrnecNo question I agree with you in every respect. Charles Martel must be regarded as the greatest general of Western Europe between Aetius of Rome and the rise of Charlemagne, though as you say, he probably exceeded the latter in generalship. I would go further and say he was the greatest western military commander until Henry II, (a much underrated general who also built an empire!) I respect Charlemagne, but I believe Sir Edward Creasy's theory that Charlemagne merely used the army his grandfather had built and his father had maintained. As you point out, Martel was also an administrator and the true father of the Carolingian Dynasty, but a paramount military commander first and foremost. His prescience in fighting the Muslem menace when he, as his family (and the entire Frankish people!) before and after him, would certainly have preferred to deal with the Saxons so close to his own backdoor is absolutely critical to forming the world as it is today. You are also absolutely right in that the macrohistorical importance of Charle Martel as an actor on the world's stage is absolutely undeniable: he is, as you said, the primary father of feudalism, the greatest general of the Dark Ages, the saviour of Christendom (and all its unique values), a military reformer of the first rate (as the father of Western heavy cavalry), the founder of his dynasty's royal pretensions, the supporter of the German missions, and the unifier of Frankland. You are absolutely right also in his theft of church property to finance his maintanance of a standing army to train; the Pope was on the verge of excommunicating him when the literal spector of Abd er Rahman ravaging his way to Rome, with the commisserate destruction of every unique value the Christian church has bequethed us, elevated Martel to defender of the faith. Viewed in hindsight, his life was one long struggle, where he virtually set himself a mission to protect his family, faith, and people, and in order to do so, prepared and defeated at least thrice a foe who should have won -though by Narbonne, he had sufficient heavy cavalry to allow him to use his planax in the open. You were right to point out he was more of a true general, and absolutely a strategist (the only western one in that age!). I have read Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson. I also believe the author is primarily defending his own thesis, but I happen to agree with it, and it's view of Martel, Tours, et al. Santosuosso's work is interesting in that while it acknowledges Tours, it sees Narbonne as the true salvation of christianity. There, a Muslim army at least a third bigger in number than the Franks was decimated by Martel and the Frankish army, and again, it was Martel's generalship! Santosuosso though is another person who views Martel as vital to western history, for without him, Islam would have conquered and converted all the way to the steppes of Russia! Rome would have been reduced as Acre and other former Roman cities were to Muslim strongholds, with christians allowed to worship, but as second class citizens. Instead, it centers feudal Europe! Martel is without question one of the "Great Men" of history. I also believe Sir Edward Creasy's selection of Tours as one of 15 turning points in history, the 15 "great battles" is accurate, as his assessment of Martel as one who "met a superior foe in every way, yet by setting his own time and place, managed to defeat him." You are right that he left Peppin the Short and Charlemagne to finish the administrative apparatus he had begun, but even Charles enery had it's limits, and he had by necessity to devote the bulk of his to establishing that great army his grandson used so well. Gibbons points out that without taking anything from Charlemagne - who was undefeated in person in all his campaigns - Charlemagne never faced a foe who was even his equal. His grandfather took the ordinary peasant levies in 716, available only 4 months a year during the window between planting and the crops coming in, and by 732 had built the first professional western army since Rome, and only 5 years later had incorporated heavy cavalry into it, with the cavalry already the centerpiece at the time of his death! And lets face it, even with the innovations, Martel should not have won at Tours. Only absolute brilliance in his generalship saved the day. Well, you are more eloguent than I am, but we absolutely agree on Martel and Tours. old windy bear 11:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So long as the vandal's sole contribution on Wikipedia is that one vandalism, I don't think anything disciplinary is necessary. But if it becomse repetitive, I'll do something about it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. You have to practically babysit some prominent articles, eh? I greatly expanded Charlemagne a month ago and I've been watching it constantly ever since. It has a vandalism every other day. Srnec 04:35, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Srnec i will go look at Charlemagne's -- I admire your work. I do know what you mean about babysitting sites, I treasure the Battle of Tours, Charles Martel, the Battle of Ain Jalut, Batu and Berke Khan's, and a few others - and yes, you have to literally check them daily, which is a shame. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THOSE PEOPLE???old windy bear 11:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

im?

What's that? 216.8.14.51 03:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

216.8.14.51 If you have a problem with an article, you need to list the problem, section by section, source your dispute, reference it with accepted historial references, instead of merely slapping a tag on with no references, sources, or specific disputes.old windy bear 03:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What is an "im"? 216.8.14.51 03:21, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

216.8.14.51 Let the editors decide. You tagged without citing what was disputed, sourcing or referencing, more of Pig's games. old windy bear 03:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

challange an article

216.8.14.51if you challange an article, fine, but you have to list specifics, source your dispute, and reference same, instead of sock puppeting others. old windy bear 03:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seing as you may have both vandalised the article... On one hand he put a tag without explaining it. And on the other hand you kept removing it (though technically I would agree with you, and I would say that you should be able to revert it.) I think if we wait half day you should be okay to remove it! So... I am not going to do anything about this today! Good luck. Unfortunately let's wait until tomorow to see if the IP has some valid explanation. Sorry. Good luck. --CyclePat 04:26, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CyclePat Hey Pat, thanks! That is why I stopped removing it -- a revert war is useless, although he was tagging without explanation. I decided to kick it to you instead. I will wait through today, and if it is still there WITH NO EXPLANATION in the talk page tomorrow I will remove it, and note it was removed because no valid explanation was offered. It is Pig again, and he isn't writing explanations because Kate blocked him for a month, and is quite familiar with his style. ANYWAY, thanks for writing back, and for the fair decision. If he (or she, Pig may be female!), lists reasons for the tag, the reasons will be answered, and then referred to you and/or Kate for resolution. (with Pig no consensus is ever possible, he exists solely to dispute, disrupt and destroy!). If no valid explanation is offered, I will remove it, and state on the talk page I waited 36 hours to see if someone offered an explanation and no one did. Take it easy!old windy bear 11:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Battle of Tours

Hi Oldwindybear, thanks for the compliment. It was very little effort on my part, and I'm glad it made a difference. I'm no history expert, but a couple of run-on sentences aside, the article already seems very good. I hope you continue polishing it, and consider nominating it as a featured article at some point.

Cheers, Cmdrjameson 00:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC) Cmdrjameson[reply]

Cmdrjameson Cheers to you also, and thanks again for the really excellent edits. I have worked nearly 7 months on this particular article, and will continue to polish it - with the help of folks like yourself! (As a historian, I get lost in the woods of the history timeline and forget the trees of the run-on sentences, which is where you are INVALUABLE!) I hope it is nominated. We, the group of people, Smerc, palmdogg, myself, yourself, who have worked on this article, have tried to make it, and it's sister article, (on Charles Martel), the best on the free net. A history prof at UMd told me this article was worthy of publication, so again, the work you did was appreciated, helpful, and meaningful! THANKS AGAIN, AND TAKE CARE! old windy bear 01:22, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re:Martel

The question of the Vikings is a difficult one, the answer to which we'll never know. Needless to say, they never invaded Martel's or Charlemagne's empires. However, based on historical evidence, two general lines of thought develop. It's possible the Danish invasions were too strong for any ruler to face. Certainly they were very persistent and opportunistic. It's also possible that the European rulers of the time were too weak and preoccupied to put of the stiffest resistance. The former possibility implies that not even a Martel could have successfully opposed them. I think, however, that Europe did successfully oppose the Vikings: in the end, Scandinavia turned to Christanity and is today one of the post pacifistic parts of the globe. I suspect that not even Martel could have simultaneously warded off both Islamic and Norse ivasions, while worrying all the while about his Germanic neighbours. Perhaps Charlemagne, without the dangers present to Martel, could have. Only if Martel had been blessed with a longer life could he have invaded Jutland and put the Danes under his thumb, but ultimately, only such action, as you say, could have stopped the Vikings. Luckily, they converted to Christianity before any such action was taken and the Viking Age came to an end. Hope this skirts...er, answers your question. Srnec 01:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Srnec I appreciate the fascinating line of thought. I agree. I don't think even Martel could have warded off both the Northmen and the Muslims, similtaneously. On the other hand, you note that they never invaded the Carolingian realm while either of those two, or Pippin, (much underrated as he was not the equal of either father or son, but still pretty spectacular for those days!) ruled. Martel had the muslims, and history shows he chose to face them, a wise choice. Charlemagne, not having that menance, would have roared north, and I truly believe would have subdued Daneland. It is all just speculation though, as the Norsemen terroized Europe after the great Carolingians were gone...and you are right, in the end, Europe prevailed much as the christians did over Rome, by conversion. But I find it interesting that despite having the naval capacity to invade the realm of Martel, Pippin or Charlemagne, they chose to wait, a very prudent choice, though as you point out, in the end, the cross got them anyway! I enjoy talking to you by the way, your work is outstanding, and thanks for the pleasure and honor to work with youold windy bear 02:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Flamarande

Hmmm, I don´t know what you mean, but let me explain it clearly: I need someone who knows Italian to check and corect the italian backronyms. I also need someone who knows Latin to translate correctly the english phrase: "The Senate and the Citizens of the People of Rome" into Latin. That phrase itself is the more acurate translation for the original meaning (the original meaning and not the phrase itself). There appears to be some doubt about that translation as you can see in the talkpage of the article SPQR. Flamarande 23:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Flamarande Heck, my wife is italian, i will find someone for you who speaks and writes fluent italian == as opposed to Latin, which I speak, and which is NOT what you wanted. Sorry, i was trying to help, but will find you what you need! old windy bear 23:59, 26 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Martel

Thank you for your kind words. In fact, I was taking part in a disambiguation project. In case you don't know, to do so, go to a disambiguation page (like metropolitan), click on "What links here" in the toolbox, click on an article, press 'Control' and 'F' simultaneously to find the ambiguous wikilink, and replace with the correct internal link (like I replaced metropolitan with Metropolitan bishop). I think it's fun, introduces me to new articles, and increases my edit count. Gilliamjf 09:15, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gilliamjf Fascinating! I did not know that, and it is certianly a useful tool. Well, you certainly are making some good edits, which is what we need. THANKS! old windy bear 11:18, 28 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great minds indeed. Sadly, there are too many new people who make silly edits because they do not understand how Wikipedia works, but, on the same hand, anything's reversible and it's impossible to lose information permanently. I also reworded some of your latest edit (additions to the Civil War 715-718 section) in order to clarify the nature of the Holy Roman Empire. Srnec 02:17, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Srnec As I am sure you have always noticed, I respect your edits - I believe we work well together as a team. I am a very good historian, (you are equally so!) and you are a better writer. We are the essence of what wikipedia should be - cooperation and consensus! old windy bear 02:19, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How are you?

How are you doing, Old Bear? Are you enjoying yourself? Do you need any help with anything? Take care... Johntex\^talk 02:33, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Johntex User:Kirill Hi Johntex! Hi Kirill, I am now in Rome! I am mostly working on the military project, though, as you probably know, I am in the Bonnie and Clyde dispute. Two editors are working on that though, and I have been asked to submit summaries of evidence in dispute by email rather than endless arguing on the talk page. I have done so, and the editors have been very fair. Thank you for asking about me, Kirill will tell you that I did a great deal of work on the Mongol Empire, and am now working on the early Roman Republic. I hope I have fit in, I have genuinely tried to do so, and to be a help. THANKS FOR ASKING ABOUT ME! (aside from the usual health problems, all is well!)

That is very good to hear. You hang in there and have a great time in Rome. Take care of yourself, we need your contributions. Best, Johntex\^talk 17:10, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Johntex Thanks John, have you read any of my Mongol articles, Mongol military tactics and organization, Berke Khan, et al? I am really trying. And I deeply appreciate nice folks like you asking about me. (some of the editors are aware I have dealt with chemo and other issues, some dating from problems as far back as the war - in any event, like any person, I appreciate someone caring enough to ask. And thanks for the compliment on my edits, I am really trying! old windy bear 19:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bonnie & Clyde

Please keep cool. Everyone can make accusations about who dun what? Sometimes it's better to ignore such accusations. I'm glad to see you guys got your frustration off your back (I hope) however, we should discuss the facts and how to express them, not the attributes of the other party. (even if they may have started it) One reason, I've been trying to make this debate go by email was in case it ends up becoming "personal"! (as per WP:NPA#alternatives) however an advantage of having it public is getting other peoples feedback --CyclePat 03:26, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

CyclePat Hi Pat! good to hear from you, and I will keep it cool. As far as i cam concerned, the issues have finally been winnowed down to two:

the role of bonnie parker in the barrow gang crimes, including her admitted lack of warrants charging her with anything resembling a capital crime'
the ambush, and it's horrific aftermath;

How you and Kate handle this is fine with me. I remain somewhat startled at how Pig shifts identtities so quickly = he is Jerry Dorsen one day, SchlimmPickens the next, none of them true. Amamzing! BUT, you and Kate deserve credit for getting the revision started! Hurray! good job, and you should pat yourself on the back, no pun intended, for being able to stay cool through Pig's various aliases and insults. It is the finish time: we are rewriting, or you are, and I am advising. Proud of you both! Take care, and thanks for writing me! You are a thoroughly good guy. My grandkids have kept me going today! old windy bear 04:14, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Two Responses from Srnec

In response to your invitation, I can only say that I am no expert on the early Roman Republic, but I'd be happy to copyedit (grammar, spelling, wording, structure, wikifying, etc) and I could perhaps do some research at my university library if it would be useful. I could certainly help more in the realm of late Roman and medieval military matters.

In response to you inquiry, let me explain why I suggested keeping "Catholic" but did not rv your edit. Yes, the schism between East and West had not yet occurred in 732, but the churches were vastly different in most respects. Also, Catholic is often used in contrast to Arian and other heresies in early medieval history, but these heresies were inconsequential or extinct by the time Martel. So, in short, you're right. I only thought that Christian was rather wide in its implications, for Eastern Europe was not threatened by the Moslems of Spain, but rather by those of Asia Minor. But, the implications of Catholic are probably too narrow. "Western Europe" would be a religiously-neutral, but nonetheless accurate, term, but "Christian" is fine and I won't change it. Srnec 04:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Srnec In pondering this, I think you are right, and it should be western christianity, or western europe. I do think the imposition of a muslim rule over Rome would have had profound implications for all of christianity, but you are right taht it would not have meant the end of the Orthadox Church. I am delighted you will work with me on the Roman project, editing is my great weakness, as you know! Plus, especially in the medieval arena, your knowledge is truly vast. SO THANKS! I am changing the term in the article to reflect "western christianity" which I think you are right is more correct historically. old windy bear 11:35, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Pig

Not a problem. Sorry for the revert. (ESkog)^(Talk) 03:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ESkogThanks for writing, but no biggie! i felt I owed you an explanation of why I deleted the personal attacks. I was told not to respond to them, just delete them. (and any responses I had made!) but your courtesy in writing is GREATLY APPRECIATED - we could use a little more of that around here, ouch! THANKS! old windy bear 03:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Re: the Mongols

Please, take your time and rest well; your health is far more important that mere Wikipedia work. Your contributions have been excellent so far, and I look forward to seeing what you can do on the Roman stuff. (We've just recently started a Classical warfare task force within the project; maybe by the time you get back it'll be in a position to help with some of the work.)

Wishing you a speedy recovery —Kirill Lok s hin 04:59, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

hin Thanks Kirill, I would be delighted to work on the classicial warfare project when I return, and thanks more for the kind wishes. You are truly a nice person, and a pleasure to work with and for...old windy bear 05:27, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bonnie and Clyde and Saltypig

Thanks for the heads up! I just blocked the sock indefinitely. Also think I'm going to remove his comments from the talk page. It's uncalled for and he's a blocked user anyway. Thanks again. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 12:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like you beat me to it in terms of removing his comments from the talk page. Cool. I'm hoping that we won't have to fully protect the talk page but we might have to. Not sure if you've figured this out, but what he did was create a bunch of user accounts on the 9th and then waited until the 4 day semi protection waiting period had passed and then posted to B&C. *sigh* --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 12:18, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(cat scratches) No, I had not figured out how he did it - just that he created yet another sock and went at it again. I am at a loss as to why he hates me so badly. I truly never did anything except argue with him, and I did point out that if you pretend to be 1,000 other people, folks find it hard to take you seriously. (and of course no one does take him seriously except as a huge waste of time!) Oh well, thanks for the help! No one likes to be mocked for their disabilities, for instance, and he is quite good at that. I find his comments puzzling, on the one hand, he claims I "stole" his article on Bonnie and Clyde, and then immediately after, blames me for rewriting it, and ruining it! Yet he cannot see that doing both is impossible, and actually, I did neither. I, and a group of other people, rewrote the article to reflect the best history available, as to the limited role Bonnie really had. (the fact no jurisdiction had a single warrant on her for a capital offense!) ANYWAY, have a nice day, and thanks! old windy bear 12:32, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I've never understood it either and I've been doing this for 16 months now. Take a look at History of Gibraltar and Disputed status of Gibraltar. Katefan and I (along with others) battled this user named Gibraltarian for THREE months. He was blocked by an admin...had an arbcom case against him...and yet he just kept at it, day after day. Yeah I don't get it either. Anyway, if you need further help, let me know. I work 3rd shift, so I'm usually active overnight. --Woohookitty^{(cat scratches)} 04:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Woohookitty Hey buddy! I just went and looked at History of Gibraltar and Disputed status of Gibraltar. Amazing! I don't suppose I should be surprised, but I am. People get so nasty over the most foolish things. The only good thing the War did for me was leave me determined not to fight ever again over foolishness... Thanks for the offer on help, you are a nice person, as Kate is, a rarity in today's world full of angry people! Take care! old windy bear 11:10, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. Let me know if ever you need any help. :-) AnnH ♫ 18:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

AnnH Thank you. It is puzzling to me how anyone could mock a vet in a wheelchair, but Pig does, in his vendetta because I disagree with him on Bonnie and Clyde. And the sad thing is, he really has no interest in making this a better enclyclopedia - i am a fanatic believer! - but interest in making as cruel a statement as possible. It doesn't bother me in a personal sense, but it saddens me that such a bright mind is so ill. THANKS for your kindness! old windy bear 19:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]