Talk:Abortion/Goodandevil discussion
Introduction
Greetings, Goodandevil,
I've started this page to try and come to a reasonable middle ground that all of us (you and the rest of the community) can agree with. You seem to be the sole voice that is advocating the changes you propose against a large community consensus that your edits are misplaced.
I would like to discuss these edits with you on an informal basis--I'm not an admin, a moderator, or anyone in authority here at Wikipedia. Like you, I'm just Joe Schmoe editor. I'm hoping we can come to a consensus that we can all agree on, without the strife and discord that has been going on.
NOTE TO OTHER USERS: At this point, I'd like to offer GaE a chance to present his side of the argument without dissent. As a favor to me, could I request that other editors refrain from posting until Goodandevil and I have a chance to discuss the situation? Thanks very much.
Justin Eiler 01:11, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
First exchange
I will not continue to participate in this dialogue if anyone but Justin Eiler participates. Thank you. First off, my goal is actually that the article simply present facts about abortion in a neutral fashion. People who support abortion do not want the medical (and other objective ) facts about abortion to be discussed in the same way that other medical topics are discussed. That is my beef with this article. The article simply kowtows to the notion that abortion is potentially emotionally painful to many people, therefore we must tip-toe when we discuss it.
1. Half the world's population is opposed to abortion, and half support it. Certainly the largest church in the world (the leaders of 1 billion+ catholics) (which created the university system and funded most all scientific endeavors between 1000 and 1800, and which continues to seek out scientific experts when analyzing its theological positions to ensure that faith does not contradict reason) holds the view that for scientific reasons, human pregnancy is a HUMAN process that begins at NATURAL conception and exists until the conceptus exits the woman or it dies. There is a scientific basis to hold that implantation is a part of natural pregnancy. Thus a test tube cannot be pregnant (although it can contain a unique human creature). Human intervention into the natural process is the only thing that would create any "in-between" situation in which a conceptus capable of growing into a mature human person exists outside of the woman (and BTW, any such intervention is considered wrong precisely because it turns a natural process that creates a human person into a manipulation by man that can create all sorts of riduclous moral scenarios). This article assumes that any one holding or promoting that view is in the minority, is supect, and is opposed to science or simply unenlightened. Even scholarly peer-reviewed research that shows a majority of one city's ob/gyns rejects the "medical definition" of pregnancy is dismissed out of hand by the editors. Even uncontroverted evidence that the medical definition was changed in the 1960s is dismissed with nothing other than "we don't trust the source" but no objective basis for such mistrust.
2. When editing the article, pro-abortion sources that contain "favorable" information about abortion are treated as if all such information is trustworthy.
3. Information that makes abortion look in any way less than good is treated as if it cannot possibly be credible, as if by its very nature it is biased even if it is simply an objective fact, and no matter what the standard has been for accepting info from pro-abort sources, the standard for accepting info that makes abortion look bad is always somehow more stringent. It does not matter the extent to which such information is sourced and footnoted.
4. This article ignores the fact that the western press is undeniably in support of abortion - despite public opinion. Thus when pro-abortion doctors or researchers are quoted or reported on, these media do not label them as having any bias (since these journalists consider pro-abortion to be the correct and unbiased view). And pro-life views are treated as if they are simply irrational expressions of religious beliefs. This article's editors rely on this prevailing media view to feel comfortable about the bias contained in this article. Since all "mainstream" media do support abortion, of course the only information that sheds light on the unpleasant facts regarding abortion will be dismisseed as coming from "biased" sources.
5. Most information about abortion is published by practitioners who support abortion. In the article, anything published by these sources is considered neutral and unbiased. Medical scholars or academics who do not support abortion normally do not publish on abortion. When they do, this article dismisses them as nutjobs with an axe to grind, no matter how thorough or well-researched their work is.
6. The prevailing consensus of the editors regarding these facts is "Your POV is obvious, its wrong, and we don't like your attitude regardless of whether it is justified by our always cavalier dismissal of all that you type. Our POV is no one's business and even if it favors abortion so what? There are more of us here, so get used to it. We don't need sources for our information, you need ten for any fact you wish to include. Any abortin-friendly opinions we put into the article will be couched as normal opinions. Any abortion-negative opinions will either be censored out or couched as if only Jerry Falwell and his followers hold the view.".
Please let me know point for point what problems you have with these 6 statements. This particular edit controversy exemplifies my concerns:
- If the policy-based manipulation of the definition of pregnancy is a fact (and there is every reason to believe it is), then that is: (a) shocking news to most of us and a bit disappointing to the many who don't like to be manipulated by the intellgentsia, and (b) a significant objective fact that this article should contain as a sservice to its readers. If true, then the fact that such information does not fit in with the prevailing paradigms (that all opposition to abortion is religious in nature and that the medical community always takes the unbiased high road) is no reason to keep it from the article. Such information is actually a coup for wikipedia. The fact that such information (if true) would never be printed or even investigated for its veracity - for political reasons - by most encyclopedias or other media is precisely one reason why people look to wikipedia for information. If the article continues to subtley hints that those who reject the "medical definition" are religous zealots who are out of the mainstream, then this article will simply be on record as denying reality. But noting that there are two medical definitions, and that the change was politically (as in "policy") motivated, would demonstrate to the world that wikipedia is serious about its NPOV policy.
I was pleasantly surprised by the recent talk page dialogue about "death" and also about the history of the definition of pregnancy. It seems that some of you have some inclination to see my criticisms could have some validity. 136.215.251.179
- Allright, I took the liberty of arranging our discussion into separate sections. You raise many objections, but it seems that the fundamental objection is to how this particular article has been managed. Let's take a look at each of the six points you bring up.
Point one
You said:
- 1. Half the world's population is opposed to abortion, and half support it. Certainly the largest church in the world (the leaders of 1 billion+ catholics) (which created the university system and funded most all scientific endeavors between 1000 and 1800, and which continues to seek out scientific experts when analyzing its theological positions to ensure that faith does not contradict reason) holds the view that for scientific reasons, human pregnancy is a HUMAN process that begins at NATURAL conception and exists until the conceptus exits the woman or it dies. There is a scientific basis to hold that implantation is a part of natural pregnancy. Thus a test tube cannot be pregnant (although it can contain a unique human creature). Human intervention into the natural process is the only thing that would create any "in-between" situation in which a conceptus capable of growing into a mature human person exists outside of the woman (and BTW, any such intervention is considered wrong precisely because it turns a natural process that creates a human person into a manipulation by man that can create all sorts of riduclous moral scenarios). This article assumes that any one holding or promoting that view is in the minority, is supect, and is opposed to science or simply unenlightened. Even scholarly peer-reviewed research that shows a majority of one city's ob/gyns rejects the "medical definition" of pregnancy is dismissed out of hand by the editors. Even uncontroverted evidence that the medical definition was changed in the 1960s is dismissed with nothing other than "we don't trust the source" but no objective basis for such mistrust.
There are several claims that need to be discussed here. "Half the world's population is opposed to abortion, and half support it." While I have some doubts about the precision of the above quote (not all Roman Catholics are anti-abortion, for instance), it's actually only relevant to the discussion of public opinion, which is competently discussed in the article.
Point two through five
- 2. When editing the article, pro-abortion sources that contain "favorable" information about abortion are treated as if all such information is trustworthy.
- 3. Information that makes abortion look in any way less than good is treated as if it cannot possibly be credible, as if by its very nature it is biased even if it is simply an objective fact, and no matter what the standard has been for accepting info from pro-abort sources, the standard for accepting info that makes abortion look bad is always somehow more stringent. It does not matter the extent to which such information is sourced and footnoted.
- 4. This article ignores the fact that the western press is undeniably in support of abortion - despite public opinion. Thus when pro-abortion doctors or researchers are quoted or reported on, these media do not label them as having any bias (since these journalists consider pro-abortion to be the correct and unbiased view). And pro-life views are treated as if they are simply irrational expressions of religious beliefs. This article's editors rely on this prevailing media view to feel comfortable about the bias contained in this article. Since all "mainstream" media do support abortion, of course the only information that sheds light on the unpleasant facts regarding abortion will be dismisseed as coming from "biased" sources.
- 5. Most information about abortion is published by practitioners who support abortion. In the article, anything published by these sources is considered neutral and unbiased. Medical scholars or academics who do not support abortion normally do not publish on abortion. When they do, this article dismisses them as nutjobs with an axe to grind, no matter how thorough or well-researched their work is.
All three of these points, are, substantially, the same claim--that pro-abortion sources are treated with greater weight than anti-abortion sources. GaE, I think the actual problem here is that the specific points that you, personally, have brought up are frequently regarded as untrustworthy. Other anti-abortion sources have been used, with no reservations, and I am somewhat skeptical of your claim that there is a general rejection of such sources.
Point six
- 6. The prevailing consensus of the editors regarding these facts is "Your POV is obvious, its wrong, and we don't like your attitude regardless of whether it is justified by our always cavalier dismissal of all that you type. Our POV is no one's business and even if it favors abortion so what? There are more of us here, so get used to it. We don't need sources for our information, you need ten for any fact you wish to include. Any abortin-friendly opinions we put into the article will be couched as normal opinions. Any abortion-negative opinions will either be censored out or couched as if only Jerry Falwell and his followers hold the view.".
GaE, I honestly feel that this point is based on claims 2-5, so I must admit a degree of skepticism. However, if you can point to such a situation (a specific difference, or an example of a proposition that you feel has been unduly questioned), I am more than willing to look at examples.
Conclusion
I know it shounds like I'm being rather difficult. There is a reason for that--I am opposed to elective abortion, and only support therapeutic abortions with the greatest of regret. However, I am also completely and totally opposed to fighting abortion with unproven rhetoric, specious or questionable arguments, or (as I have seen some pro-lifers stoop to) lies and dishonesty, or worse.
Given my views on abortion and honesty, I'm very possibly going to be the most critical person you've ever run your arguments by, perhaps even more critical than many pro-abortionists. That does not mean I oppose you or your goals ... it simply and solely means that I will resist any argument from my side of the abortion debate that runs the risk of weakening our goal.
And if that means you do not choose to continue this conversation, I will certainly understand and respect your decision. But if you do choose to consider it, I guarantee I will give you as much support as I can, provided I can do so in good conscience. Justin Eiler 03:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
You have not addressed points 4 or 5 at all. This is the biggest problem. It is linked to point 1 (that being pro-life is just as mainstream as supporting abortion). Precisely because (a) the press favors abortion and (b) most all abortion research is done by abortionists and casts abortion in a favorable light, the editors here make the gross error of assuming that the "neutral" view favors abortion. Again, I simply want facts in the article. The facts about abortion are enough to make everyone reject it. I am not asking that opinion be included in the article - simply that the opinions that are in the article (prevailingly in favor of abortion) are removed or balanced with the widely held alternative opinions. The article is filled with subtle wordings that make it seem (as I stated and you have not addressed) as if the generally accepted view is to favor abortion, and the fringe (and always religious) view is to oppose it. I am non-plussed that you would (if you actually don't support abortion) suggest that this topic has no relevance to the abortion article itself and how it is edited (which DOES impact its content).
You make a broad statement about my contributions. Please point to any instances where I have asked for non-factual information to appear in the article. You have not even addressed the one specific instance that I noted (the ACOG re-definition that is well-sourced). I can't take your dialogue here seriously if you simply poo-poo me away with no attempt to address the concerns I have rasied.