Talk:Early National Socialism/draft
Researcher Notes
France being the birth place of National Socialism
- "As nature abhors a vacuum, history abhors changes without origins, whether immediate or remote. Fascism did not spring fully grown from the chin of Mussolini. It had historic origins, not so much in Italy itself as in France, which since the French Revolution has furnished many revolutionary patterns to Latin Europe".
— Liberalism and the Challenge of Fascism, J. Salwyn Schapiro, pg 322. - "Moreover, France was the birthplace of Sorelian revolutionary revisionism, the second elementary component of (Italian)fascism."
—Birth of Fascist Ideology, Zeev Sternhell, pg 4. - "Marinetti and D'Annunzio often wrote in French and participated in the intellectual life of the French Capitol".
—Birth of Fascist Ideology, pg 29 - "The fascist synthesis was already clearly expressed around 1910-1912 in publications like La Lupa in Italy and the Cahiers du Cercle Proudhon in France. After the first manifestations of the Fascist synthesis in France, the war was needed ...(to transform it into political force)".
—Birth of Fascist Ideology, pg 31. - "The announcement of the coming together of the syndicalists and nationalists in France aroused enthusiasm in Italian revolutionary-syndicalist circles; Lanzillo, in his apologetic biography of Sorel, Orano in La lupa, and the review Pagine libere, which in its December 1910 issue spoke of the "Sorel phenomenon", showed appreciation of the significance of the socialist-nationalist synthesis coming into being in France."
—Birth of Fascist Ideology, Zeev Sternhell, pg 96. - Doctrine of Fascism points to all French men as the sources and inspiration of Italian Fascism.
— Giovanni Gentile and Mussolini
- "As nature abhors a vacuum, history abhors changes without origins, whether immediate or remote. Fascism did not spring fully grown from the chin of Mussolini. It had historic origins, not so much in Italy itself as in France, which since the French Revolution has furnished many revolutionary patterns to Latin Europe".
Nazism as counterpart to French Revolution
- "Hitler and Mussolini are despots belonging to the age of democracy....Dictatorship of the nazi type is a late cancer which has blossomed on the soil of the French Revolution."
— Jules Romains, Les Hommes de bonne volonté. - The Nazi Revolution was "the exact counterpart of the French Revolution".
—Adolf Hitler as quoted by Herman Rauschning - "The emergence of nationalist doctrine in Europe, for example, occurred at a time when western industrialization was still in its infancy. It occured, more precisely, in response to the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars, and not in response to industrialization."
&madash;Fascism, Noel O'Sullivan, J.M.Dent&Sons, London, l983, pg 21. - "It lies, more especially, in the doctrine of popular sovereignty enunciated by the French revolutionaries in 1789, in the declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen. It was with this Declaration that the new activist style first acquired practical significance in the European World. "The principle of sovereignty", the Declaration announced, "resides essentially in the Nation; no body of men, no individual, can exercise authority that does not emmanate from it."
—O'Sullivan, Fascism, pg 45-46. - ""By sending us as deputies here," Danton announced to the Convention of 1792, "the French nation has brought into being a grand committee for the general insurrection of the peoples." It is this vision - a vision of "the general insurrection of the peoples" - which continues to inspire the activist style of politics. A century and a half later, a euphoric French fascist, Robert Brasillach, contemplated the spread of the activist flame first lit in 1789 and indicated how little it had to do with either individual liberty or international peace."
—O'Sullivan, Fascism, pg 47. - "Robespierre rapidly concluded that liberty is not only compatible with terror, but actually requires it. (Robespierre:)""The mainspring of popular government in time of revolution is both virtue and terror: virtue, without which terror is evil; terror, without which virtue is helpless."
- "Rousseau's dream of liberating the suffering masses by rallying them to the activist cause, they, had rapidly turned out to be a bloody and ruthless business than its progenitor had foreseen."
—O'Sullivan, Fascism, pg 67.
- "Rousseau's dream of liberating the suffering masses by rallying them to the activist cause, they, had rapidly turned out to be a bloody and ruthless business than its progenitor had foreseen."
- "Hitler and Mussolini are despots belonging to the age of democracy....Dictatorship of the nazi type is a late cancer which has blossomed on the soil of the French Revolution."
Comments
WHEELER, your theories that National Socialism orginated with the French Revolution are not considered "mainstream" in academic circles and shouldn't be in the article. If this is yet another attempt by you to insert your POV that Nazism is a left-wing ideology that has nothing to do with reaction and is somehow the product of Enlightenment and liberal thinking then I really think you should write an argumentative essay and put it someplace other than Wikipedia. In fact, I would say if Nazism has something in common with any 19th century movement it would be Romanticism and Neo-classicism (the Nazis sure loved Plato after all and practically worshipped ancient Greece). AndyL 06:21, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
WHEELER, why do you describe fascism as a form of "national socialism" when it was not? Just because "national socialism" is a form of fascism does not mean the opposite is true. AndyL 09:27, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
National Socialism is an ideology. Hitler never coined the term nor created the concept. Neither did Mussolini. AndyL is confusing the subject because Nazism is so overwhelming in people's minds. There was a French party called the "National Socialist Party" before Hitler was ever around. National socialism should stand by itself just Like Marxism does. Does marxism talk about solely what happened in Russia. Is Marxism defined by the Russian esperience? Are the rules being applied the same? We have an article about Marxism and another about Russian communism. They are two seperate articles. Why are the rules different for national socialism?????WHEELER 14:16, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Mussolini never described himself as a "national socialist". And what does Michael Barres mean when he says "national socialism"? Are you sure he's talking about the same concept as the national socialism of Hitler? Trotsky used the term "national socialist" in the 1920s to describe Stalin's theory of socialism in one country but he certainly didn't mean it as analogous to Nazism. Phrases mean different things at different times in different contexts. Is it possible you are cherry picking and citing usages of the term "national socialist" that refer to completely different things?AndyL 14:26, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- We have an article about Marxism and another about Russian communism. They are two seperate articles. Why are the rules different for national socialism????
WHEELER go to an encyclopedia, look up "national socialism" and see what it says and then you'll understand why we don't have separate articles on National Socialism and Nazism. Then go ask the editors of those encyclopedias why they don't have separate araticles on the "two subjects". AndyL 14:26, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Just like those encyclopadia do not have the correct definition of a Republic. No one does. There is not a single textbook in America with the Classic definition of a republic. But there is one now on this website. American Universities do not teach about the classic definition. Because they are there to propagandize.
Give this time Andy Please, other people will coborate and work on this. It took six months on the Classic Definiton of a Republic. This will also grow. And I have to do research on this. There is needed information here. Prof Schapiro has no word for nazism he uses the term fascism for nazism. I am just following this man's lead and von Kuehelt's lead.WHEELER 14:51, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- "As nature abhors a vacuum, history abhors changes without origins, whether immediate or remote. Fascism did not spring fully grown from the chin of Mussolini".
— Prof Schapiro, Liberalism and the Challenge of Fascism, pg 322WHEELER 14:51, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
WHEELER, you asked me why not separate articles on Nazism and National Socialism, I respond by saying look at an encyclopedia and see if there are separate articles and you ignore my answer. And I think you should stop focussing on the two academics who happen to agree with you. This is not a Sternhall-Shapiro encyclopedia. If you're serious you'll also look at the broader scope of academic writing even those with whom you disagree. You don't get anywhere with tunnel vision looking only for people you'll agree withAndyL 23:05, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Prof Schapiro, Prof. Sternhell, Prof. von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, and now, Prof Noel O'Sullivan, Senior Lecturer in Politics University of Hull, Fascism pg 40, "Thus extreme nationalism, for example, is a characteristic of reactionary groups like the Action Francaise, which was in no sense a fascist movement. He quotes H. W. Schneider, Making the Fascist State ch 1. pp 13-14.
4 professors! That's not enough?WHEELER 14:55, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Andy what is that "Early National Socialism" Article. Shouldn't it be Austrian National Socialism. Can we have some coordination here? What are you doing with that Early National Socialism Site? You disbar me from using National Socialism and you start a site already with Early National Socialism with my work in it. I don't think you are playing fair at all. That site needs to be renamed.WHEELER 21:56, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The Nazi article should not be a spin off article. The Early National Socialism/draft should be renamed solely "National Socialism" and that is where the spin off comes. I don't think you are playing fair and you are abusing your place. I don't appreciate you taking my material, putting it in another article, redirecting the original post, then taking my material again and making a site with it. What's going on?WHEELER 22:24, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- ""Thus extreme nationalism, for example, is a characteristic of reactionary groups like the Action Francaise, which was in no sense a fascist movement. He quotes H. W. Schneider, Making the Fascist State ch 1. pp 13-14.
WHEELER, all that quotation says is that the Action Francaise is not fascist according to the author. He's *not* saying that extreme nationalism is not a characteristic of fascism. You're reading something in that he simply didn't say which does not say much for your skills in reading or compiling information. You start with a fixed notion and try to force things to fit your preconceptions.
As for the stuff of the non-draft page, that's about the only part of your article which is not POV. Nothing else I can see in your article belongs in wikipedia. If you want me to move it to Austrian National Socialism I'll do that. I made that suggestion originally with your article and you rejected it, remember?AndyL 07:15, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)