Talk:South Azerbaijan
"Chris" or whatever you want to call yourself in order to say you are not a Persian chauvinist...I am sure you can read or write. Go and investigate all the links I put out. Where do your links come from? Racist Persian chauvinist writers and biggots? Or from the Aryan nationalists. There is no such thing as an Iranian nation because there are different ethnic groups (nationalities) in Iran. Every nation has a different history, but you want to link everyone to your history! All your links are Persian chauvinist/Pan-Iranist links and you don't even respresent them here because you don't have anything to show lol
Everyone is a "Pan-Turk" or "Pan-Something" but only the Persian chauvinists are not "Pan-Iranians" :)
Two choices to resolve this issue: 1) Delete the South Azerbaijan section which would make the Persian chauvinists happy and will let them spread their lies on wikipedia.
2) Delete this page and check out all the sources on Azerbaijan to make sure everything stated is right. These Persian biggots will not come to any "conclusions" with people who state the truth because they have their own agenda. There is no way that anyone can have a discussion with them. They just manipulate the moderators and try to prove that they are better than everyone and label everyone as a "pan" something when they are the most racist pan-aryans themseleves.
The internet has many resources, and if the administrators on wikipedia feel that someone is lying about a topic, they can search and find the truth instead of letting Persian chauvinists insult other users and make personal attacks against them and try to act "intimidating" by posting other people's IP addresses. regards,
Emil
This is a questionable section, I removed from the article. Would someone please confirm the UN recognition of the party and flag and then readd it to the article with more details?
Everyone is a pan...
This is revolting. I cannot believe the Persian people deny the persian chauvinism that the Iranian govnt has persued on us Azerbaijani Turks. What did Azerbaijan ever do to Iran? We are not asllowed to have our own names, we can't have our own culture, we get beat at the age of 6 in school by persian teachers when we can't speak a word of what they say! not to mention 6 year old kids running calling each other names that arn't even legally theirs and leaking in their pants cause they can't communicate with their teachers. Think morally, not nationalistically. We have been oppressed by the Iranian govnts for so long thAT I can't legally name my son Yilmaz, I have to call him Mohammad. Our activists are executed all the time! How can you support this, how can you deny all this! How can you sit here and think of yourself as humane while spreading propaganda about Azeri Turks. We are not persians! and we are not iranians. all our money from our provinces is stolen and spent in tehran, allm our rugs and cultural aspects sold to the world as "persian" and now the Iranians even try to label the independent northern republic of Azerbaijan as a false creation. accept it, There is a republic of Azerbaijan, there is no more soviet union, we exist! and we don't want to fight but you want democracy for iran, and you can't even understand the concept of it while denying turks and other ethnicities such as kurds and arabs the right to exist but calling us Linguistically turkified persians and iranians. Labelling us pan-turkists, making fun of our accents when we speak your language. calling us jackasses on tv (no different to calling an american negro a nigger". think morally before you support chauvinism, stop accusing and accept the facts that azeris should not have to fight for their own cultural to be legal in their OWN land, a land they make up 99% of the populatiomn of! Please wake up!
- In 2003, the United Nations accepted SANAM (South Azerbaijan National Awakening Movement) as an official political and national party representing the Azerbaijanis of Iran and an official national flag representing South Azerbaijan has been accepted by the United Nations. Most Azerbaijani nationalists, however, consider the flag of the Republic of Azerbaijan the flag of South Azerbaijan as well. Besides SANAM, other political groups representing South Azerbaijan include: CAMAH (South Azerbaijan National Liberation Movement), UAEF (United Independent Azerbaijan Front), GAIT (Guney Azerbaycan Istiglal Teshkilati), and DAK (World Azerbaijanis Congress.) The level of activity that these political groups have inside Iran is uncertain.
-Roozbeh 23:13, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- About the flag: http://www.gamoh.org/en/flag1.html
- About the UN accepting SANAM: http://www.gamoh.org/en/recognition.html
- About the borders of Azerbaijan before the 1828 division:
- "Balami History"
- "Azerbaijani Turks" by Audrey Auldstadt
- "Borders and Brethren" by Brenda Shaffer
- "Al-Masoudi" Arab historian in the 10th century
- It's interesting that these Persian chauvinists who run around on the internet, spreading false propaganda on South Azerbaijan, Kurdistan, Balochistan and other non-Persian nations of Iran are now crying because true information (information that is not Pan-Persian or Pan-Turk or Pan-anything but the truth) is being put out.
- Everything written here about South Azerbaijan and the history of Azerbaijan is the truth. If someone has doubts, they can read books written by American authors such as Audrey Aldsdadt and Brenda Shaffer (she wrote a very extensive book on South Azerbaijan and northern Azerbaijan in 2002 called "Borders and Brethren") and talk to Azerbaijani and non-Azerbaijani historians and can confirm it. Persian historians have tampered with so much of Azerbaijan's history for the sake of Persian nationalism. Persian historians and Persian nationalists LIE about the existance of different nations in order to advocate "Iranism." America recognizes South Azerbaijan, the European Union recognizes South Azerbaijan, the United Nations recognizes South Azerbaijan, yet there is not a lot of info on the internet and when information is put out, these Persian chauvinists and deceptors come and try to change it. They want to link everything to themseleves. There is nothing Pan-Turk or Pan-Kurd or Pan-Baloch about writing real history. I thank wikipedia for letting people spread the truth, rather than having racist, sneaky Persian chauvinists distort everyone's history. The only thing "Pan" is "Pan-Iranism" or "Pan-Persianism" which seeks to terminate everyone's history. The truth will always overcome.
- "Iran falsifies the history of Azerbaijani-Turks"
- "SANAM south Azerbaijan news archive"
- "2002 United Nations Report on South Azerbaijan"
- "Stateless Nations" website flags (check Iran section)
- - Emil originally from Tabriz
- -- Anonymous Pan-Turkist with dynamic AOL IP's:
- 198.81.26.9 / 198.81.26.17 / 198.81.26.41 / 198.81.26.44 / 198.81.26.74 and others.
- Not a single one of the references you provided above are authentic sites. They all are personal, or Pan-Turkist websites. For example, about the UN document, why don't you show the document in the official UN site, and instead point people to a Pan-Turkist web page? You Pan-Turks are infamous for falsifying history and spreading lies. Your article Persian Chauvinisim (by the way, you spell like a Turk) speaks volumes about you and your kind. You also never mention the FACT that the overwhelming majority of Iranian Azeribaijanis DO NOT support Pan-Turkism and they hate your guts and your lies and fabrications. It is in fact the Iranian Azerbaijanis themselves who are the most ardent activists against you people, as they fought and destroyed separatist activists in Azerbaijan before. On the article Nizami you have FOUR TIMES changed the article and claim that Nizami has also "Turkish works". When I asked you in the discussion area why don't you name those "Turkish works" of Nizami and why don't you just include them in the article? You had no answer. Of course you had no answer, because you LIE. But still, you changed the article to your false version. You are a most typical Pan-Turkist. The fact that you folks are happy claiming other cultures' achievements and figures as your own, in itself is a good indication that you don't have anything on your own! And if you had even half a brain, you would realize that by doing so, you are telling the world you are so desperate for a cultural idenity that you would step over any boundry at any cost.
- P.s. Learn to use proper indentation when you take part in discussions, do not alter other people's writings, and do not delete their signatures. I had to restore Roozbeh's original writing after you had destroyed it. Also learn to sign your own postings, so people know who is who, although in your case, your prattle is rather unmistakable. --K1 18:57, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This whole article is a a pack of lies and misinformation, written by a typical Pan-Turkist. Please also notice the recent changes to the article by the same person who created this article to The Republic of Azerbaijan and compare the history of that article to get the idea. Also take a good look at his "linguistic theory" about the origin of the name Azerbaijan for a good laugh. The same persoan also injected lies in the article on Nezami. I will be restoring those articles to their last non-political versions right after I finish writing this note here. I do not have enough time these days to spend much time on Wikipedia, but I hope people like this buster don't take advantage of the open nature of Wikipedia for their sick agenda.
The whole term "South Azerbaijan" is a recent creation of the Pan-Turkists and it is completely politically motivated. I am amazed that you added Persian text to this misnomer. Which Iranians call Iran's Azarbaijan "South Azarbaijan" that you add Persian Text to this deceitful misnomer, and thus, lending credence to this recent Pan-Turkist invention? The article says that Iran and Russia agreed to divide Azarbaijan in two parts with the Aras river being the dividing line. Nothing is farther from the truth. Iran lost the territories to the north of the Aras river to Russia. However, those territories were NEVER called Azarbaijan. Please look up "Azerbaijan" in the online Encyclopedia Britannica of year 1911[1] and see where "Azerbaijan" was before WW-I in the major encyclopedias of the world. Also there are many centuries of Persian history and literature that clearly tell you where Azarbaijan has been -- including literary works of people from Azarbaijan, Shervan, Arran and many other Iranian lands or the past and present.
The terriroties in the Cacausus to north of the Aras river, that Iran lost to Russia were not called Azarbaijan, rather, they were a few provinces, mainly, Arran, Shervan and Nakhjavan (all also Iranian names). This article, deceives the reader into believing that they were all one large, cohesive province called Azerbaijan!!
The country that is today known as The Republic of Azerbaijan, was FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, called "Azerbaijan" after WW-I. When the Bolsheviks took over, Stalin liked the idea of one "Azerbaijan" and the Soviets started to agitate Iran in an attempt to separate the real Azarbaijan from Iran, and attach it to the new Soviet "Azerbaijan". The same idea is being pursued today by the Pan-Turks.
This whole article is worthless and should be completely replaced or deleted. The term South Azerbaijan is a well-known Pan-Turkist invention of recent times. Poeple who take advantage of Wikipedia to promote their political agenda should know that this sort of cheating always backfires. The more you try to invent history, or to modify it to suit your political agenda, the more you motivate people to defuse your deceits and fight you back. Please don't victimize Wikipedia and its readers to promote your agenda .... but then again, I am probably asking for too much by expecting certain people to behave civilized and demonstrate they have at least a modicum of culture. --K1 10:27, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I couldn't confirm most of the facts, but wanted to remain neutral to some degree. But I know the article is still pointed even after my edits. That's the reason I added the both disupte messages to the article. K1, would you please try to edit the article and fix the factual mistakes and propagana, but in the meanwhile try not to impose the Iranian opinion? I guess we better not remove the whole thing. Roozbeh 11:40, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I will modify this article in the next few days. Unfortunately I do not have time to do it today. Regarding your request for fairness, well, I consider myself a fair and objective contributor to Wikipedia. However, what can you do when some illiterate bozo creates an article such as the bogus Pan-Turkist concuction called "South Azerbaijan" ?!! Do you take part in the article and pretend that such a concept has legitimacy and contribute to it, or you try to reveal the facts? I provided a link to the online Encyclopedia Britannica of year 1911. Everybody can read it and see how it clearly describes the boundries of Azarbaijan and that is the area the Pan-Turkists now insist on calling "South Azerbaijan". Besides, there are a number of other major encyclopedias in the world that are published every year. All of those before the end of WW-I show the same thing.
You must familiarize yourself with the tricks and lies and fabrications of the Pan-Turkists. They are infamous for that. There are hardly any cultures in the world that has not been subject to their lies and fabrications. This guy's bogus and utterly laughable etymology of the "Turkish root" of the name Azerbaijan, is very very typical of them.
You noticed how the guy modified the Nezami article and said Nezami also has Turkish books. When I asked to name just one of his Turkish books, and if there is one, just put it in the article, he shut up. In Republic of Azerbaijan, they have now even added an "Ughlu" to the name of Nezami and suddenly, he is now "officially" Nizami Uqlu !! :-) ... if the idiots could only read Nezami's works, they would kick themselves in the butt for claiming Nezami as a "Turk" since Nezami and other poets of that Region such az Khaqani Shervani, have many times clearly insulted the Turks. They are now even claiming Babak Khorramdin as a "Turk"!! Oh, and "naturally" he becomes "Babek"!
Anyhow, the name "South Azerbaijan" is a Pan-Turkist invention and it is deliberately designed with 100% Pan-Turkist intentions. The best way to be fair is to tell the truth -- and I intend to do that in this article very soon, unless someone else kindly beats me to it. --K1 07:25, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks for the points. I'm looking forward for your edits. BTW, since I don't know much about geopolitics, I can only remove claims that are obviously propaganda. Things that *may* be true, I have not edited out, waiting for someone more knowledged in the field, like yourself. Roozbeh 07:59, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Roozbeh/K1 and 198.81.26.9: please cease reverting each other's versions of the article until an agreement as to what should be included and not included within the article. Please keep in mind the NPOV policy when doing so. This article may be protected until such time as disputes are resolved. Thank you. -- Grunt (talk) 21:15, 2004 Jun 25 (UTC)
- Just to note that I consider myself neutral in this. I'm not pro-Iranist or pro-Turkist here, which can also be found from my edits before User:K1 got involved. As a judge, I considered K1's edits fine, that's the reason I didn't revert his version, but the anonymous user's. Roozbeh 10:03, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- How can we reach an agreement when this guy just changes the articles as he pleases (or creates articles that are blatant falsifications) and never engages in any dialog or discussion? He just makes massive changes and disappears until the next time that he graces us with his "contributions". --K1 16:27, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I have been contributing to Wikipedia for a long time. I take pride in the accuracy and quality of my work. This bozo who has just shown up here out of nowhere is clearly an illiterate Pan-Turkist with a political agenda here. Just a quick look at his history should tell you. There is no dispute. In the article I gave a link to the online Britannica of year 1911. I have also looked it up in the Brockhaus [2] which is the main German encyclopedia which has been published every year since 1808 !! Unfortunately, they do not have any of their editions available online, but every major university should have their old editions. This guy is a joke. --K1 08:30, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Regardless of whether you are right - the NPOV policy requires us 'not' to call his statements wrong. Certainly he is entirely violating NPOV himself to present his statements as fact. Please read the NPOV policy and study it closely. You can make your point even more effectively without violating NPOV. Morwen - Talk 08:33, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I am familiar with the NPOV policy. Please read the converstion I have had with Roozbeh on this very page, which eventually lead to my modifications to the article. Also, if you feel that parts of my article need to be improved or edited, feel free to help. But "fairness" doesn't mean that we should accomodate lies and deceptions here especially from some random IP number who has not contributed one bit of constructive work to wikipedia. --K1 08:57, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- No, not just Iranians. Armenians also. Greeks also. And most importantly, the Iranian Azerbaijanis themselves, the vast majority of which, absolutely hate the perennial Pan-Turkist (and formerly communist) historical fabrications. When during Stalin era, the communists wanted to separate Iranian Azerbaijan from Iran and attach it to the new so-called Soviet "Azerbaijan", it was mainly the people of Azerbaijan themselves who fought the communists and their Soviet allies, because Iranian Azerbaijanis know better than anyone what the deal is. There are thousands and thousands of Iranians who emigrated to Iran from the Caucasus after Iran lost those lands to Russia. In my own relatives I have several of such Iranians. Not a single one of them has a last name as "Azarbaijani" (or any combination thereof) but almost all of them have last names that indicates the area in the Cacausus where they came from, for example: Arrani, Lankarani, Nakhjavani, Ganjavi, etc. --K1 10:39, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Page protected
Month-long edit wars are bad. I suggest Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Also please read m:The wrong version and Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars ever. Thanks - David Gerard 00:34, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- David, I responded to Grunt on Talk:Azerbaijan and everything I said there is about you too. You are an incompetent admin, because you can't even bother to take a quick look at the history of a newly-arrived IP number, and realize what the deal is. I have answered and typed aplenty on this discussion page and other pages, and don't have time to waste. Please, if you are incompetent, DO NOT become an admin. If you have accepted the responsibility of becoming an admin, THEN ACT RESPONSIBLY and in the interest of the project. A grade school kid could take a look at this guy's "contributions" and realize he is up to no good. --K1 09:31, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It's not actually proper for me to care. You didn't read m:The wrong version or Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars ever, did you? - David Gerard 23:35, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Actually, as an admin it is your job to care. What do you think adminship is for? Just a feel-good virtual title? Besides, you missed the point. A new guy with an IP number, not even registered, shows up and right away starts to massively change whole bunch of articles, all related to one obvious cause. What is a sysop to do? I used to make meaningful contributions to articles that I think I have qualification or special knowledge about. Since this loser has started his abuse (and it's been a long time now) I am spending most of my time reverting his lies and misinformation, and so far, not a single sysop has done anything other than putting inane NPOV or the like messages. --K1 03:20, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Not true - this sysop is working on rewriting the article. I'm planning to refactor it as three related articles - History of Azerbaijan covering the region up to 1828; Iranian Azerbaijan as a renamed and rewritten version of this article, and History of the Republic of Azerbaijan covering the Russian/Soviet/independent country since 1828. -- ChrisO 10:31, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
For 198.81.26.41 - recognition references?
198.81.26.41 says: "America recognizes South Azerbaijan, the European Union recognizes South Azerbaijan, the United Nations recognizes South Azerbaijan." Could you please provide references so that we can corroborate what kind of "recognition" this entails? -- ChrisO 11:57, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I do not think there is any truth in 198.81.26.41 assertions. It is quite clear that there are some Azeri separatists +/- Azeri nationalists who aim for a unification with the Republic of Azerbeijan, but to be blunt I have never met one in person. Most Iranian Azeris I know describe themselves as Iranian Turks/Azeris, are justifiedly proud of their language and culture, teach it their children, get upset when called "Persians" by ignoramuses but have no intention or plan to cut any ties to Iran. Refdoc 14:49, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Everyone is a "Pan-Turk" or "Pan-Something" but only the Persian chauvinists are not "Pan-Iranians" :)
- Two choices to resolve this issue:
- 1) Delete the South Azerbaijan section which would make the Persian chauvinists happy and will let them spread their lies on wikipedia.
- 2) Delete this page and check out all the sources on Azerbaijan to make sure everything stated is right. These Persian biggots will not come to any "conclusions" with people who state the truth because they have their own agenda. There is no way that anyone can have a discussion with them. They just manipulate the moderators and try to prove that they are better than everyone and label everyone as a "pan" something when they are the most racist pan-aryans themseleves.
- The internet has many resources, and if the administrators on wikipedia feel that someone is lying about a topic, they can search and find the truth instead of letting Persian chauvinists insult other users and make personal attacks against them and try to act "intimidating" by posting other people's IP addresses.
- regards, Emil -- Anonymous Pan-Turkist with dynamic AOL IP's:
- 198.81.26.9 / 198.81.26.17 / 198.81.26.41 / 198.81.26.44 / 198.81.26.74 and others.
- How about 3) create a version of this page which represents both points of view? As far as I'm concerned both versions of this article are equally valid (invalid?) with only religious views preventing one of them being accepted even in part. In the interest of NPOV I feel it would be best to attempt to give both points of view here and cease arguing the (in)correctness of one of the points of view. I would very much like to see this argument die, but so long as both parties involved feel their view is the "only" view that is not possible. It is clear that the other point of view exists; otherwise why would two versions of the article exist? Please just accept that there are multiple points of view here and then maybe we can get started on a properly neutral version of the article. -- Grunt (talk) 01:32, 2004 Jul 7 (UTC)
You have made a whole array of cliams, and people have asked you to present some authentic evidence to back up your claims. In return, you have only given some personal homepages, and some Pan-Turkist web site. And now, you are talking about "two choices". First things first. People are still waiting for you to give some authentic evidence (kinda of like how I, for example, gave a link to Britannica) to support your claims. And since you have made a whole bunch of cliams on a whole bunch of pages, these need to be verified. --K1 23:58, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)