Talk:Federal Marriage Amendment

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Should gay rights activists' objections to the FMA be here, or in gay marriage or both?

They should at least be here. On the other page, you can put "Gay rights activists are opposed to the Federal Marriage Amendment which they claim...." Just one sentence should be enough. Just a thought. -- RM

Gay rights POV

The article's lead sentence states:

The Federal Marriage Amendment (FMA) is a proposed change to the U.S. Constitution that would define marriage legally as involving people of different sexes.

This makes it seems like it's a change from

• recognizing only same-sex unions as "marriage"

to

• allowing people of opposite sex to "marry" as well

Am I reading too much into this, or is it poorly worded?

I suspect someone placed this wording in there, deliberately. My 30 years' experience of talking with gays taught me the value of loaded and tricky language. Why, they're worse than communists!!

In particular, the amendement does NOT define marriage as "involving people of different sexes" but only as "the union of a man and a woman". I don't know who stuck in that involving stuff, but I'm too angry to look it up; just fix it, okay? --Uncle Ed 16:21, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It's not the best wording, but it is technically accurate - the marriage would have to involve people of both sexes to be legal under the proposed wording. I'm not an expert on the subject - perhaps this should be listed as an article needing attention? It could do with some formatting changes too I feel. akaDruid 16:30, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

While it works well in normal circumstances, the wording becomes a bit of a problem if we include androgynes, non-operated intersexuals et cetera in the equation - though admittedly these groups are too small to be much of a factor. (Mind you, it is interesting to see where they will end up should the amendment pass. Male? Female? A freak show circus cage? But that's off-topic entirely.) --Kizor 16:41, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

POV in disguise

The article says:

Some supporters of the amendment claim that supporting only heterosexual marriage is strictly a matter of public interest. They believe that the government has an important role to promote heterosexual marriage because having and caring for children is vital to the public interest in various areas such as the economy. Although the existence of same-sex marriage would not interfere with the continued public support of heterosexual marriage, they assert that extending the principle of human rights to a previously excluded group in this area would constitute a case of legislating morality.

To me, this reads like an argument by opponents of the amendment. ":Akadruid|akaDruid]] 17:31, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Took at stab at NPOV and simplification. Davodd 19:01, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)

Nice work! I reckon this is a much better article now, and much more NPOV. I'm going to remove the NPOV message I put at the top. I hope this new edit covers the concerns raised above too. akaDruid 10:07, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

---

If you move this down ....

"To others, it is designed to defend the marriage of opposite-sex couples and to reaffirm that homosexual couples cannot marry."

Then you better move this down too ...

"To some, it is designed to restrict the right of marriage to opposite-sex couples and to deny that right to same-sex couples."

JDR 00:06, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

---

Disputed format or facts:

1. Inclusion of DOMA facts in the FMA definition is not germane to the definition of what the FMA is.
2. Inclusion of POV arguments in the explaination of the text of the FMA.
3. Format dispute: Inclusion of External links within the body of the article.

Davodd 00:14, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

1. Inclusion of DOMA facts is important in relation of FMA (3/4 on both).
2. POV arguments were already present in the explaination of the text of the FMA.
3. Inline external link citation is acceptable.

JDR 00:17, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

POV agruments, though valid, belong in the arguments section of the article; not the definition part. Maybe you should NPOV the definition if you find it to be POV. As for external links in article text, please read Wikipedia:Guide to Layout; especially the Wikipedia:Guide to Layout#External_links part. Davodd 00:25, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

Then put BOTH in the arguments section, not just one. That is why the other sentence was included (to balance the oppositional tone that was there).

External links in article text can be inline [just like current events]. It's easy ... LATER it can be put into a reference section.

I full well know about all the pages that you linked to.

JDR 00:32, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC) (PS. read Wikipedia:Cite your sources)

I added two external links -- in the external links section:Alliance for Marriage web site (a pro-amendment site) and DontAmend.com web site (an anti-amendment site). Of course you know "full well" what I linked to, as can anybody who reads the page history. Anyway, I do hope we can resolve this dispute and edit this article in a collaborative, NPOV way. Davodd 00:41, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

I did a formal reference section. JDR [PS. I didn't mean in the article, but W:GtL link here in talk]

Great job! Davodd 18:02, Feb 21, 2004 (UTC)

Some minor wording issues

To some, it is designed to restrict the right of marriage to opposite-sex couples and to deny that right to same-sex couples.

I had to read this a couple of times before I understood it. At a glance, it seems to suggest that even the rights of straight people are being restricted. I thought about replacing restrict with confine but that doesn't sound entirely correct either. Thoughts?

To others, it is designed to defend the marriage of opposite-sex couples and to reaffirm that homosexual couples cannot marry.

This I feel needs clarification. It's not so much about defending straight marriages themselves as defending the institution or sanctity of marriage. Nobody, to my knowledge, is suggesting that any individual straight marriages will somehow be endangered by same-sex marriages occurring.

In fact that whole paragraph seems like splitting hairs. The 2 views seems like a distinction without a difference. Perhaps it could be better phrased thus:

Some see the FMA as a defense of straight marriage, while others see it as a pre-emptive block on gay marriage.

Though even this I think is a bit weird. It's clear to me that the FMA's sole purpose is to prevent gay marriage. It doesn't help heterosexuals in any way, as far as I can see.

Anyway, these issues of wording are so minor I'm not even going to edit the page until I've seen some thoughts about all this. I've had enough edit wars for one week. Evercat 00:35, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The FMA may ban state courts to require local governments to confer marriage or domestic partnership status

should be ban state courts from requiring, but it looks like it was originally force, hence the to require. has that been edited?