Talk:Friedrich Nietzsche

Misc

Some comments: a) Nietzsche himself argued that his most important work was 'Thus Spoke Zarathrustra'. Ought that not be mentioned somewhere. b) Some of the details on Nietzsche and Christianity ought to be on a linked some page I think. This was one of his many themes and seems overblown. c) A lot of the detail in this page might be better put in the individual books

Nietzsche and post-structuralism/postmodernism/existentialism

Moved to here and a major inspiration for post-structuralism and an influence on postmodernism;

Not sure about Nietzsche "revival"; some evidence needed.

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I put the links to post-structuralism and postmodernity in originally. And to be frank, I do not believe that one person's not knowing of Nietzsche's influence is sufficient reason for deleting it. You have every right to ask contributors -- I mean myself but also the whole wikipedia community -- to elaborate and develop points. But "lack of evidence" is not a reason to delete, it is simply an admission of ignorance. We all have contributions to make, and if you have a strong argument for Nietzsche not being an influence on PS and pomo, please do share it with us. Otherwise, it is at best disrespectful not to give others the benefit of the doubt. (Perhaps it is time for you to read most common Wikipedia faux pas.)

I take Michel Foucault and Jacques Derrida to be two important, perhaps central, figures in post-structuralism, and, arguably, postmodernism. Are you unfamiliar with Foucault's important essay, "Nietzsche, Genealogy, and History?" Nietzsche's notion of genealogy had a direct and major impact on Foucault. Also, Foucault refered to Nietzsche's essay, "Schopenhauer as Educator" (it is in a book called Untimely Meditations), as being very influencial. In fact, you can look at James Miller's biography of Foucault which has over a column and a half of index citations for Nietzsche.

Derrida wrote approvingly of Nietzsche in Writing and Difference and wrote a telling essay "The Question of Style" in Nietzsche Today? -- I could go on and on but I would rather you read the 18 pages in her translator's preface to Grammatology in which Gayatri Spivak analyzes Nietzsche's influence on Derrida. Also, Jonathan Culler draws on Nietzche for a paradigmatic example of deconstruction in Culler's book On Deconstruction. Also, Alan Schrift wrote a book (sorry, I do not remember the title -- but please do not delete this reference just for that reason!) on Nietzche's influence on a whole series of post-structuralists, such as Helene Cisoux.

Jean Francois Lyotard is perhaps the founding figure of academic postmodernism; the preface to his book The Postmodern Condition writes of the influence of Nietzsche's reflections on historiography and forgetting on Lyotard; the book itself has three index entries for Nietzsche. I hope that your demand for evidence doesn't require me to copy these entries out for you.

I admit that Jameson's book Postmodernism has only two references to Nietzsche, but they are strategic. David Harvey's book, The Condition of Postmodernity has 11 separate index entries for Nietzsche.

Oh, and how could I forget -- Deleuze and Guattari, in Anti-Oedipus (another crucial post-structuralist work) pay homage to book two of The Genealogy of Morals (that's a book by Nietzsche) as the appropriate and ideal inspiration and starting point for all future studies of human society.

Frankly, I think of one looks at the Wikipedia articles for postmodernism and poststructuralism, the influence of Nietzsche is obvious. Nietzsche playes a crucial role in challenging the privileged place of "reason" in the Enlightenment project and in elevating aesthetic considerationsin the will to power, it is hardly surprising that post-structuralists and postmodernists have been inspired by him and refer to him.

Of course I must admit that I do not see such a strong influence on existentialism. I did not put that reference the article, but I saw no reason to delete it -- or to demand evidence for the claim. I looked at Being and Nothingness and found two index citations to Nietzsche, which in my mind isn't much but who am I to judge? I read these articles to learn things I didn't know. I assumed others had the same attitude. SR

Perhaps his point was not to doubt the influence of Nietzsche on post-modernism, but to doubt the relevance of that influence to an assessment of Nietzsche's work. In much the same way that an article on Caesar need not mention Caesar salad: his point might simply have been that since post-modernism is just faddish pop-philosophy, then the fact that it claims affinity with Nietzsche is no more important than the fact that Ayn Rand claimed affinity with him.

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I think it is undisputed that Nietzsche is a precursor to existentialism or existentialist philosophy. Many even put him in that category. For instance L. Nathan Oaklander in his "Existentialist Philosophy - An introduction" (Prentice Hall 1992) where he writes about Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, Sartre, Heidegger, de Beauvoir and Camus. All these wrote about the individual experience of being a human subject, and as such Nietzsche also was an existentialist philosopher.

well, this is why I am glad that in my ignorance I did not cut that reference! I had thought it was undisputed that N is a precursor to post-structuralism, but I discovered that some people didn't know that. My point was really that useful content should not be cut. SR

Altruism

Does the mention of altruism mean that Nietzsche defined slave morality as altruism, or that people think he did? If the former, I'd like to see a reference; I thought he meant something like "all morality stemming from envy or resentment of the strong". If the latter, I'd like to see a reference to someone who might have tried to understand Nietzsche. --Dan

Nietzsche's influence on Nazis

no mention of Nietzsche and his influence on Nazi thinking...

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Nietzsche's influences on the 2nd and 3rd reichs were mainly the result of work done by his sister Elisabeth. The irony of this is rather disturbing in that during the First World War 150,000 copies of 'Also Sprach Zarathustra' were printed by the German government and distributed to conscripts alongside Bibles for inspirational reading. What inspiration can be found in the combination of the messages "God is great" and "God is dead" is beyond myself and I believe most rational people. His influence on Nazi thought is also ironic considering Nietzsche despised anti-Semitism and nationalism. His last written note read: 'I am just out having all the anti-Semites shot, signed Dionysos.'

Personally I feel it would be unfair to Nietzsche to discuss his influence on Nazi Germany as if there was any intent or interest on his part in having his views construed in the fashion Hitler desired. Leave that discussion for the page on Nazi Germany.

-SB

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The desire to subtract Nazi morality from Nietzsche's thought by way of noting his hate of anti-semitism doesn't at all detract from the fact that he harkened racial genocide with open arms:

"(The supermen) would mold man as an artist would...(to) achieve that immense energy of greatness, to mold the future man by breeding, and, at the same time, by destroying, millions of bungled humans - we must not be deterred by the suffering we create, the equal of which has never been seen!" - F. W. Nietzsche (from 'Der Führer' by Konrad Heiden, p 230)

He was not a Nationalist, but he was a Nihilistic Eugenicist;

"nationalism and race hatred...the national heart-itch and blood-poisoning on account of which the nations of Europe today are bounded off and secluded from one another, as by quarantine." - (p 229) emphasis mine

"The tendency must be toward the rendering extinct of the wretched, the deformed, the degenerate...Satisfaction of desire should not be practised so that the race as a whole suffers, i.e. that choice no longer occurs, and that anyone can pair off and produce children. The extinction of many types of people is just as desirable as any form of reproduction" - Friedrich Wilheim Nietzsche (from 'The Racial State' Cambridge University Press, p 34) emphasis mine Nagelfar 00:26, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Can you give the references to these passages in Nietzsche's works? I really think this is not saying what it looks like it's saying: it doesn't go along with any of his thought I know of. Not saying it's wrong, but I would very much like to investigate, if nothing else than for my own knowledge. I'll try to look up the books you suggest; if you can, look and see if the authors cite Nietzsche's books they came from. It's very tricky talking Nietzsche at surfece value because he specifically and deliberately wrote to be misinterpreted by those he didn't feel were looking deep enough. Again, not saying that's so here, but I'd like to look.

Thanks.--DanielCD 02:00, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The Cambridge University book cites it from an 1880 source; Friedrich Nietzsche, 'Nachgelassene Fragmente Anfang 1880 bis Sommer 1882', in Giorgio Colli and Mazzino Montinare (eds.), Nietzsches Sämtliche Werke (Munich, 1980), Vol. 9, p. 250. And the exact quote is given to "Nietzsche, 'Nachgelassene Fragmente', p. 189. I believe these are mostly untranslated. As the for Konrad Heiden book it's an old 1944 English translation and gives no sources. The Cambridge press book goes on to say about the quote that; "Eight years later he outlined a series of measures for racial selective breeding." Nagelfar 03:27, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Considering how much of his work is thought to have been, at best, reinterpreted by his sister, I would be concerned accepting as proof of Nietzsche's thinking any source that doesn't list its own sources in Nietzsche's work. Without context, I'm not sure how I feel about excerpts from books that aren't written by Nietzsche, either. -Seth Mahoney 05:32, Jul 12, 2004 (UTC)

The ones with sources I gave have no connection to his sister, but I do see it altogether as a rather modern 'rose-color glasses' liberal view of Nietzsche to want to put the blame all on her having his tastes out of context to filter out his offensive extremisms and leave only the impartial universally-pliable ones. It seems very, retro-Nietzschean. Nagelfar 08:38, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Then again, if the views are wrong, it would also be very retro-Nietzschean to leave them in place. Rose-colored glasses can look both ways. These statements are taken out of context and are being misinterpreted; I'm certain about that, but can't prove it yet because I can't find the quotes. I will though, in time. Given these quotes vs. the entire remaining corpus of his work, I would go with the latter. Why would Nietzsche be interested in Eugenics? What makes you think he's a nihilist? I'm curious because he never claimed to be a nihilist; it's what he was working to avoid by providing a foundation for morals that could stand up to the "collapse of religion" (for lack of a better term). Please don't think I am being contrary here, I am simply interested in the discussion and appreciate the responses. From the looks of at least one quote, it came from an unpublished notebook (Fragments beginning 1880-summer 1882, and Nachgelassene Fragmente = Leftover or remaining Fragments), which means it not really valid to say he believed that, especially given their contradiction to all else he believed. --DanielCD 13:52, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Will to power more than psychology

anyone catch this:

"his embrace of a sort of irrationalism; and something he called 'the Will to Power' (Wille zur Macht), possibly best regarded as an early attempt at psychology."

i think it is quite an oversimplification to describe the will to power as and early attempt at psychology. Leaving aside for the moment that there were plenty of earlier attempts at "psychology", this kind of reference seems to discount how much more is involved in the Will to Power. I think this article would be stronger without this little phrase, although there is also room for expansion on this front, in order to elucidate this topic even more

---I don't think that acknowledging Nietzsche's interest in psychological matters diminishes his theories, although the quoted passage could use some polish. Walter Kaufmann's biography of Nietzsche, after all, was subtitled "Philosopher, Psychologist, Anti-Christ." Moreover, both that book and Kaufmann's translations of Nietzsche's work contain frequent footnotes drawing parallels between Nietzsche's observations and Freud's work. You do have a point, however, that the quoted passage seems a bit too reductionist. Nietzsche's ideas, covering so many facets of the human condition, defy easy summation.

Wagner

I am most definitely not a Nietzsche expert, but should there not be some more information about Wagner? As far as I know, Wagner was the most important person in Nietzsche's life: like a moving magnet, attracting first and repulsing later. Also, more than one of his works is about Wagner. Sjoerd de Vries

Nietzsche's Zarathustra vs. the actual Zarathustra

By the way, an expert is cited about Zarathustra inspiring so many religions, but I always believed that Nietzsche's Zarathustra is not related to the Persian Zarathustra: no mention of Ahura Mazda or anything. What do other people think about this? Sjoerd de Vries

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Having read Nietzsche's works, you'd have to understand that his connection to Zarathustra is very pointed as a REWORKING of the original points presented by the Zoroastrian faith. His statements in "Also Sprach Zarathustra" are represented as a necessary recantation by the original prophet himself. Based on what would be percieved by Nietzsche, and presumably the prophet, as the diversion or corruption of what was originally intended, and the need for new and more directed moral philosophies worthy of the world in which Nietzsche resided. It should be noted that Nietzsche's personal justification for the title was that "Zarathustra had been 'the first to see in the struggle between good and evil the essential wheel in the working of things'.

His understanding and interest in Zoroastrianism and Zarathustra in specific likely arose from his dedication to the study of classical philology following the cessation of his theological studies in 1865. Nietzsche's dedication to the study of classical languages is noteworthy in that the first authenticated English, French, and German translations of the 'Avesta', the collected works of the Zoroastrian canon, were published in 1857. Thus it likely would've been a main subject of discussion during a course of study in philology in 1865.

This publication date is mentioned in the third volume of 'Miscellanies of the Philisophical Society London 1856-7' within an article by then British Member of Parliament, Sir Erskine Perry, titled 'Notice of Anquetil du Perron and the Fire Worshippers of India'; Abraham Hyacynthe Anquetil du Perron being the name of the original translator of the 'Avesta' books from Pahlavi-Farsi to modern Persian, and finally to his native French, which he published in 1771.

For further reading on this connection between Nietzsche and Zarathustra I would suggest "In Search of Zarathustra - The First Prophet and The Ideas That Changed The World" by Paul Kriwaczek, (c) 2003, published in paperback edition by Phoenix, an Imprint of Orion Books Ltd. London.

-SB

Nietzsche "died of brain cancer" or syphilis?

< http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/05/1051987657451.html >

Nietzsche 'died of brain cancer' - Octothorn 16:20 22 May 2003 (UTC)

Or a link claming syphilis by the author of POX: Genius, Madness, and the Mysteries of Syphilis. --ssd 03:24, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, the syphillis theory has been conclusively disproved by Leonard Sax in the Journal of Medical Biography Feb 2003. Vol. 11, Iss. 1; p. 47 In light of this research, I am updating the allegations of syphillis in this article. --XmarkX 03:19, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I just checked the POX author's web site (above) and it [1] mentions Dr. Sax. Apparently Dr. Sax claims that no deterioration in Nietzsche was seen in his later life, including handwriting, facial expression, and speech. If he had syphilis, symptoms in these areas should have been seen, and according to Dr. Sax, they were not. However, other observers say that they did see these symptoms, and there is apparently extant evidence of at least handwriting deterioration. So, to say the least, this is still in dispute amongst the historians, and possibly Dr. Sax is either ignoring evidence, has not seen it, or does not believe it for some reason. (I have not read his article, and will try to look for it or reviews of it.) I think the current wording in this article is still balanced, and I see no need for change at this time. Note well, however, that doctors "late in his life" saying that he "lacks symptoms" does not mean much. Syphilis was well known as the "great imitator", frequently being mistaken for other diseases, and doctors who had not followed a patient through his whole life could easily say a person was "asymptomatic for syphilis", attributing their symptoms to other maladies. --ssd 05:56, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, the case in Sax's article as I remember it is certainly not based around an argument that there was no deterioration in Nietzsche's condition. Any condition that caused the symptoms he did have, such a growth in his brain, would be likely to progressively worsen. The most convincing proof was, aside from the fact that there were symptoms he did have going back decades that suggested there was something else going on, and the absence of certain characteristic syphilis symptoms, was the time-scale of the disease. Nietzsche lived for over a decade in a condition of insanity - the onset of syphilis is far more severe in terms of symptoms and death than Nietzsche's condition. If there is scholarly contestation of Sax's claims, then that must be reflected in the article - but I really feel that this case is now open and shut - especially given Sax's examination of where the original claims that Nietzsche had syphilis come from i.e. incredibly unreliable diagnoses in overcrowded contemporary public hospitals, then taken up by Nietzsche's detractors and passing accidentally into Nietzsche lore in the twentieth century. It seems to me that there are obvious reasons for your source to construct the evidence in ways favourable to his maijn thesis, moreover - Sax's research was published only months before Hayden's book on syphilis was published and having to retract all his claims about Nietzsche at that point would have been a problem for him - not to imply any insincerity on his part, of course.--XmarkX 12:49, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The anti-Sax comments I saw were dated October 2003, obviously predating the article, so they were objecting to other things Sax apparently said before this article. As to the time scale of syphilis--there really isn't one. It can kill in 6 months or easily let you linger for a decade in the tertiary stage while going in and out of insanity with frequent bouts of intense pain. Many who had it didn't die of it and only suffered mild symptoms, or died of syphilis induced heart or lung troubles while mostly sane. Actually, I don't think anything short of a blood test can actually refute that someone had syphilis. All we can really say is that they died of something else or not. Insidious disease it is. --ssd 05:13, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The last few paragraphs

The last paragraph in the current article doesn't make sense at all. If someone wants to critique Nietzsche, I think this belongs in a separate page. All that rambing about "Nietzschian heroes" as well is besides the point. Nietzsche's Overman is not a person of physical strength, but rather, of power, which is mostly mental in nature.

I agree.

I've removed the references to Tarzan, Lewis & Clark and Davey Crockett as irrelvant. Lisiate 02:23, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Since Nietzsche doesn't speak of "Darwinian heros" or "parasitism" and any "amassing great power through cunning and deception" is hardly the core of his thought, the following seems not to have much to do with Nietzsche at all:

The question remains: at what point do men who amass great power through cunning and deception reflect a Darwinian hero, or do they instead reflect a different trait that goes by the chapter title "parasitism" in Dr. Wilsons' book Sociobiology: The New Synthesis. ("Parasitism" is typically called "criminality" in human societies; a vivid example is the protagonist of Fyodor Dostoevsky's classic novel "Crime and Punishment" who thinks he is so superior he can take morality into his own hands and winds up a guilt-ridden criminal convicted of murder

I've removed the above, in addition to what follows -- which, the two words "Nietzsche" and "syphilis" notwithstanding, is not about Nietzsche or his thought:

Nietzsche's own life reflected the possible perversity of selective factors in congested, complex, modern, urban environments. Sexual promiscuity within a primitive tribe might be "eugenic" (i.e. it can increases stronger traits within the gene pool) to the extent that it may enable more fit men to disproportionately spread their seed compared to less fit men, but in a modern urban society, this behavior can be the undoing of great men through the spread of syphilis, as was the case with Nietzsche himself.

--Ryguasu 07:17, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Last paragraph of article appears to be slightly looney-tunes195.92.168.177 01:30, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

That last paragraph does need to be broken down and "digested", perhaps moving some facts to their appropriate places in the article. I am going to work on this. I also think there should be a section regarding Nietsche's relation to existentialism...it deserves a subsection of its own because he was a major influence on many 20th century existentialist philosophers (and many others as well). The Will to Power section, saying that modern psychology ignores it...that's kind of corny-sounding. That section needs to be fleshed out with more info related to the idea of the Will to Power or otherwise deleted and be noted in another section. --PaperTiger 21:53, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)PaperTiger

Misc

The first two "external links" are broken.

Edits by user Khranus

Someone might want to double-check the edits from Khranus. He appears to have been a vandal and was banned. Daniel Quinlan 09:33, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

Survival of the fittest?

Nietzsche was strongly influenced by Arthur Schopenhauer and his concept of "the Will to live". H.L. Mencken's book on Nietzsche described his work as an early effort to reconcile the philosophical implications of Charles Darwin's "survival of the fittest" evolutionary theory with contemporary moral and ethical systems. He greatly disliked Darwin and his idea of "the survival of the fittest".

I find the second sentence very confusing -- it's not clear whether "he" refers to Mencken or Nietzsche. And "survival of the fittest" was actually coined by Herbert Spencer, and is not mentioned once in Origin of Species.

Aragorn2 23:11, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I agree. He disliked Darwin's assumption that the (physically or morally) strong always triumph, as he noted 'the weak preserver over the strong again & again,' but he supported the idea of a 'survival of the fittest,' a quote:

"To those human beings who are of any concern to me I wish suffering, desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities - I wish that they should not remain unfamiliar with profound self-contempt, the torture of self-mistrust, the wretchedness of the vanquished: I have no pity for them, because I wish them the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not - that one endures."- Friedrich Wilheim Nietzsche (The Will to Power, p 481)

What's being said in this sentence is that Nietzsche wishes on those he cares about the suffering that will lead them to self-overcoming. This has nothing to do with Darwin. This is about the Will to Power, the will to self-oversoming, which requires great strengh and the willingness to suffer greatly to attain self-knowledge. Nietzsche believed this journey required suffering, that is why he wished it on those he cared about: he wanted them to reach self-relization. "desolation, sickness, ill-treatment, indignities" - these are the things that make one grow, not sitting in a sterile paradise. Also note: "unfamiliar with profound self-contempt." The enduring is the self-overcoming, the not giving in to a passive morality (such as his idea of Christianity) and to hence stop striving to be all you are capable of. Anyway, hope that makes sense; this statement is not about 'survival of the fittest'. Hope that helps some.

--DanielCD 04:36, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's all the same. The final line is what ties the meaning together without further explanation; "the only thing that can prove today whether one is worth anything or not - that one endures," is certainly relevance of the fittest if not survival of the fittest, and then it is a matter of how one interprets the meaning of survival. "Fitness" doesn't need mean strength, but rather "conduciveness" Nagelfar 08:24, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Nietzsche and utilitarianism

This page states:

"...in favor of a utilitarian approach (one weighs costs and benefits on ones own to determine the ethical implications of an action)..."

As far as I am aware Nietzsche did not favor a utilitarian-like approach. Nietzsche battled in a vehement war against utilitarianism and its convention. He did think that one may weigh possible effects or benefits of one's actions, but more importantly he thought "consciousness was a curse". Thus actions should not be reflected on in the morbibund way in which utiltiarians do.

Many of Nietzsche's aphorisms actually attack utilitarianism as a whole. For instance, "You utilitarians, you, too, love everything useful only as a vehicle for your inclinations; you, too, really find the noise of its wheels insufferable?" [Beyond Good and Evil, Kaufmann, 174] or 188 in the same book he refers to "utilitarian dolts". Also, Nietzsche thought that the inclination to practicalty in utilitarianism was disgusting.

Utilitarianism is a consequentialist theory of ethics that sees that which is right as that which achieves the maximum amount of hoappiness for the majority. This differs starkly with Nietzsche's philosophy. To make a quick point of this I need only to mention the emphasis which Nietzsche puts on pain and uncomfortable experience which make life worth living--to make knowledge meaningful (knowledge must stand up to the rigors of life). Utilitarians believe that the group (or humanity) should be taken into consideration while avoiding pain and discomfort. Utilitarianism bases what is just on that which will be best for the most. Nietzsche found this one-size-fits-all philosophy to be reprehensible.

If similar to any moral or ethic theories at all, it appears that Nietzsche has more in common with virtue theories. Virtue theories place the greatest weight on which values and ethics fit the individual's life as a whole. Virtue theory requires that one think and act critically in life, not for the some untailored, generalized virtue, but for one's own best.

Vidyadhara 19th of January, 2004 20:58 GMT

I agree that the attempt to class Nietzsche as some kind of utilitarian is misleading. Thus I'm removing the following paragraph. Maybe someone can clean it up into something more insightful.

To the extent that the study of ethics can be broadly lumped into three categories (obedience-oriented, contractual, and utilitarian), Nietzsche clearly rejected obedience-oriented philosophies (one either obeys or does not obey a higher authority) in favor of a utilitarian approach (one weighs costs and benefits on ones own to determine the ethical implications of an action).

--Ryguasu 06:09, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Will to power in Harry Potter

"A foolish young man I was then, full of ridiculous ideas about good and evil. Lord Voldemort showed me how wrong I was. There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it..." -Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

Though I haven't read "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone," I saw this passage in a review of the book. Did Rowling appropriate Nietzsche?

Justifying will to power?

Reading Zarathustra, I have the impression that Nietzsche's justifications for the struggle and strife mandated by people fully exerting their will to power all boil down to the will to power being "natural", "healthy", and/or inherent in the definition of "living". Is there any sense to this impression? If this is so, what might Nietzsche respond to someone who disagreed about what was "natural", "healthy", or "alive"; or to someone who agreed that the will to power was "natural", but who thought that we should not go from what is to what ought to be? --Ryguasu 22:49, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The Will to Power is basically a kind of self-interest in that it drives the organism (substance, etc.) to do what it needs to do to thrive. It does NOT include exerting one's will over OTHERS. Nietzsche saw the desire to dominate others as a severe weakness. The Will to Power is, as far as I have seen, focused inward, not (directly) outward. I'm not sure what you mean by the disagreement - give me an example. I don't quite understand the 'ought to be' either, LMK more about what you are thinking. --DanielCD 15:51, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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"some scholars think that Dostoevsky may have specifically created his plot as a Christian rebuttal to Nietzsche. Of course, if they were real scholars they would have known 'Crime and Punishment' had been written well before Nietzsche published any of his works"

Wouldn't it make more sense to discuss "real scholars" (i.e. those who know Nietzsche was influenced by Dostoevsky)?

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can we add a name pronunciation for nietzsche at the top? -plasticlax

Nietzsche and epistemology

Hey all, I was wondering a bit about this line (and a couple lines around it) in the brand, spanking new (and fabulous) Will to Power section:

"(This is part of a more general claim that all facts are false, roughly because none of them more than appear to correspond to reality.) Instead, ethical statements (like all statements) are mere 'interpretations'."

While I had understood Nietzsche to be, epistemologically speaking, something of a skeptic, what always struck me as more important in his writing was not whether or not anything is in fact true or false, but why it is true or false, to which he seemed to be saying something like, "a true statement has been made true" - that is, there aren't states of affairs in the world that are true in and of themselves, just truths made true by humans. If we're going to be discussing his epistemology and/or metaphysics in this article, I'm all for going all out on it, rather than just a sentence or two stuck in the Will to Power section, which without a big old chunk of text explaining it might be misleading. Any objections? Normally I'm a bit more brazen about editing articles, but this one has had some big improvements lately and I didn't want to interrupt the flow. --Seth Mahoney 17:59, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hey Seth, after my other edits yesterday, I was thinking that an epistemology section would be good. I'd say if you're up for adding that, or a metaphysics section, go for it. I think providing a brief, coherent, NPOV summary of any aspect of Nietzsche is a difficult task. I also find it somewhat ridiculous that, with my not all that extensive knowledge of Nietzsche, I'm apparently one of Wikipedia's "Nietzsche experts". But maybe working together we can actually mold the article into something good. --Ryguasu 19:12, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree - its gonna be tough. One thing Nietzsche was not in favor of was NPOV... Anyhow, great! I'll get started on that as soon as I have a minute or two... --Seth Mahoney 19:16, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Religion

Nietzsche did question religion early in his life - he goes on about this in On the Genealogy of Morals. He may have been pious as a child, I don't know about that.--XmarkX 05:44, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Nietzsche´s Polish roots

Man hat mich gelehrt, die Herkunft meines Blutes und Namens auf polnische Edelleute zurückzuführen, welche Niëtzky hießen und etwa vor hundert Jahren ihre Heimat und ihren Adel aufgaben, unerträglichen religiösen Bedrückungen endlich weichend: es waren nämlich Protestanten. Ich will nicht leugnen, daß ich als Knabe keinen geringen Stolz auf diese meine polnische Abkunft hatte: was von deutschem Blute in mir ist, rührt einzig von meiner Mutter, aus der Familie Oehler, und von der Mutter meines Vaters, aus der Familie Krause, her, und es wollte mir scheinen, als sei ich in allem Wesentlichen trotzdem Pole geblieben. Daß mein Äußeres bis jetzt den polnischen Typus trägt, ist mir oft genug bestätigt worden; im Auslande, wie in der Schweiz und in Italien, hat man mich oft als Polen angeredet; in Sorrent, wo ich einen Winter verweilte, hieß ich bei der Bevölkerung il Polacco; und namentlich bei einem Sommeraufenthalt in Marienbad wurde ich mehrmals in auffallender Weise an meine polnische Natur erinnert: Polen kamen auf mich zu, mich polnisch begrüßend und mit einem ihrer Bekannten verwechselnd, und Einer, vor dem ich alles Polenthum ableugnete und welchem ich mich als Schweizer vorstellte, sah mich traurig längere Zeit an und sagte endlich “es ist noch die alte Rasse, aber das Herz hat sich Gott weiß wohin gewendet.” Ein kleines Heft Mazurken, welches ich als Knabe componirte, trug die Aufschrift “Unsrer Altvordern eingedenk!”—und ich war ihrer eingedenk, in mancherlei Urtheilen und Vorurtheilen. Die Polen galten mir als die begabtesten und ritterlichsten unter den slavischen Völkern; und die Begabung der Slaven schien mir höher als die der Deutschen, ja ich meinte wohl, die Deutschen seien erst durch eine starke Mischung mit slavischem Blute in die Reihe der begabten Nationen eingerückt. Es that mir wohl, an das Recht des polnischen Edelmanns zu denken, mit seinem einfachen Veto den Beschluß einer Versammlung umzuwerfen; und der Pole Copernikus schien mir von diesem Rechte gegen den Beschluß und den Augenschein aller andern Menschen eben nur den größten und würdigsten Gebrauch gemacht zu haben. Friedrich Nietzsche

Nietzsche and "Philosopher-Kings"?

Considering this statement:

"Moreover, his idea of noble men imposing their own values on the world suggests a non-skeptical meta-ethical view, namely ethical subjectivism."

Is this saying that Niezsche believed in having "noble men" (ubermensch?) impose their values on people? Something like a Platonic "Philosopher King?" If so, this statement is patently false. That idea goes against the core of Nietsche because he dispised any kind of imposed morality. Comments? --DanielCD 20:49, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Another comment: there were some references in the article (which I'm working to remove) that suggested the Will to Power includes a desire to 'Dominate'. This is not really true, as Nietzsche saw the desire to dominate (anything outside oneself) as a weakness. This is part of the problem he had with the State, Germany, and Christianity. --DanielCD 15:44, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)