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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Supadawg (talk | contribs) at 15:53, 17 August 2004. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This information was removed from the 2004 Summer Olympics article because of its POV-ness and the fact that it's meaningless. The European Union does not have an Olympic medal count, and to create one is to creat false information because each EU member state competes separately, meaning that they have the potential to win more medals per event than a national team could. The vast consensus on the Talk:2004 Summer Olympics page was that the information is meaningless. In addition, the information in this article is pretty incoherent. RickK 07:10, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)

Calling it false information is a libel and a POV for dubious motives. Maybe the performance doesn't please everybody. It is a real information, the figures are not invented and the introduction of the article is clear about how to understand it. I don't see why this harrassment against that work of information --Pgreenfinch 07:25, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Keep. Pretty clear to understand. As an event occours where EU nations win more medals in one event than would be possible for a single country (i.a. two medals in a team sport), it should be noted. Aside from that, the page is pretty easy to understand and should remain. Yardcock 07:31, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)

Pgreenfinch, so far I have seen you describe the removal of the EU tally from 2004 Summer Olympics as "censorship" on its talk page, and now you describe the statement that this table displays false information is "libel". Obviously you don't believe the information should stay on the basis of the content of the page alone, and need to try to shift the blame onto other users by accusing them of doing something dodgy. Yes, I find trivia like "what if EU was competing as a single nation" quite interesting, but it is not accurate and certainly not the type of material that is suited to an encyclopedia. Delete. -- Chuq 07:46, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I see that, for some, to gather statistics is "trivia", inaccurate whatever the sources and explanations, and not encyclopedic, when it is ...related to the EU. Imo, this rationalization says a lot on the motives to kill that article. --Pgreenfinch 08:17, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The article's writeup seems to lack a NPOV with comments like "impressive" and "supremacy". I concur that the statistics are suspect, not only because a combined EU figure can have multiple medal winners that would not make sense - but merely the fact there are more competitors from that country vying for an event can influence the results in unforseeable ways. Additionally, if such a methodology were supported, where could you draw the line? The Commonwealth, the African Union, the G8, English speaking countries etc. all represent hypothetical collections of countries, the EU is not unique in that respect. If the article is retained it should have calculations for different coalitions of countries for balance, and be fixed for NPOV. --Kjd 08:26, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm quite open that you add calculations for other groups, although their political integration is less institutionalized than for the EU. --Pgreenfinch 10:35, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  • Delete. This is misinformation, promoted for political reasons. Andrewa 08:31, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. While the facts aren't necessarily false, I don't particularly see the use of this, any more than I would one of NAFTA medals at the Olympics. Since selection to the Olympics is made via national olympic committees, this is a misleading metric, and therefore pretty much useless. Average Earthman 08:47, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • DELETE. Useless. We dont have a Mercosul or NAFT or NATO page. Maybe a UN page? J/K. saopaulo1
  • Delete, the EU is not awarded any medals at the Olympics. Maybe a footnote to the main medal tally article would be acceptable, as a piece of trivia of interest, but certainly not an article. —Stormie 10:09, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • You might be right, and I quite agree to a footnote instead of an article. But a censor deleted such a footnote, without waiting for a vote, btw, which could be considered as vandalism. So in a quest for appeasement, whatever the true reasons that might be behind the opposition, and I made a page instead. Another thing, no country is awarded a metal as they are granted to the athletes themselves. I wonder if some would consider a table by countries a trivia ;-)) --Pgreenfinch 10:32, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • DELETE. Pointless, to make such a thing, it's far more interesting and usefull to add a table with medal tally by continent (Eur/Asia/Afr/Oc/NAm/CAm/SAm), instead of by political or economical organization. WolfenSilva 11:07, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    • Hmm, that's a point - perhaps if it was a tally of how various political/economic/geographical groupings that hold their own games (e.g. the Commonwealth games) then it might give an idea of the level of importance of that games in that field (e.g. Commonwealth swimming medals, African athletics medals, etc). One page should suffice for the lot. Of course, EU isn't Europe, so the current page is still useless, and my earlier vote still stands. Average Earthman 11:35, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    • Wolfen, I'm talking about a political organization, the European Union, with most of the traits of a country, with its own passport and its directly elected parliament. Now, an additional article or table by continents could be also interesting. Imagine Europe including Russia, Ukraine, Turkey... (all are among the 45 members of the Council of Europe, a looser European organization, but still with institutional powers) --Pgreenfinch 11:54, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • DELETE. This page is totally pointless, the EU does not have an Olympic Committee, that's why this page should definitely NOT exist. Medals are awarded to the athletes who are chosen by their respective National Olympic Committee to attend the Olympics, that's why there is a national medal count, this does not exist for the EU. -- 203.220.170.49 12:58, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • DELETE. Pointless page. Frankchn 13:24, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • DELETE. Deleting it is not POV. It was false, inaccurate information because it gave a 'medal count' for an Olympic team that does not exist. Also, it could lead to action by the athletes concerned if they feel slandered by being listed as winning 'for Europe' if they are not pro-EU. Also from a practical standpoint the Olympics haven't finished yet so there is little point in having any sort of medal count since it would have to be update every couple of hours. --Cynical 13:28, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Cynical, hey ;-). Tell me what is false in the account? Are not those medals realities? Btw, did I talk of a team? And where did I said winning "for" Europe? But the most surprising is the a contradiction between those "motives" and the fact that at the same time you seem to approve such a count after the Games. Do you think a hourly update is needed and will change the ranking? Well; I will need some help for this permanent updating (which is not made in the main articles tables btw). Are you making a proposition to give such assistance? All that is inconsistent with wanting a deletion. Seems again that other motives are at play. --Pgreenfinch 13:43, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. The results are flawed statistics, and don't belong in an encyclopedia. If the EU wants to act as one nation, that's fine. But until people are going through the EU Olympic Trials (and false starting their way out of Olympic spots), this information is hypothetical at best, and misleading at worst. -- Mike J. 13:45, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete: The EU is not a nation and does not have a team. It is a group of nations with separate teams. Then there are monetary unions vs. political unions and new members not yet qualifying for full union, etc. Imposing a monetary and political cooperative on the jingoistic business of medal counting is utterly pointless to those who don't find it completely inflammatory. Geogre 13:51, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • We get further and further from a rational reason not to give such statistics. Funny coincidence, this ...coalition of deleters. Which side is the ..."jingoism"? ;-)) --Pgreenfinch 14:08, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete - everyone has already stated the reasons this should be deleted. Pgreenfinch, the medals are real, but the stats are wrong, and it's easy to just look up who's winning in Europe on the normal medal count table. [[User:Supadawg|supadawg - Talk]] 15:53, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)
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