Talk:Jumping the shark

Last sentence

Perhaps the last sentence could be fleshed out. --Daniel C. Boyer

This has been done, or at any rate, the article has been substantially written in the ~2 years since the above comment. Ellsworth 22:40, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Multiple jumps/Ted McGinley

I think the Cosby Show deserves mention, as it jumped the shark several times: when Denise left, when they introduced that new little girl as Rudy got too old to fill that role, etc. Also, is mentioning Ted McGinley really worthwhile? Not without something of an explanation, I'd warrant. -R. fiend 15:15, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't believe that, under the definition used by the website, a show can "jump the shark several times", although occasionally on the site you'll see the notation "back and forth". Ellsworth 16:04, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ted McGinley has been on many television shows that have failed. I haven't seen if that has been explained, but I will do so if it hasn't. Mike H 18:24, Jul 18, 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to back up the question of Ted McGinley being worthwhile, or more importantly, who says he's the patron saint of Shark Jumping? I'd never heard of this, and I just went over to IMDB and looked at his shows and his guest appearances, and while there are a couple of shows he was on that were then cancelled, I'm not sure you could say any of them were shows that jumped the shark, as most of them were young shows, and several I'd argue were very fresh shows that just didn't find their audience in the first place. Shark Jumping shows are cancelled cause they've gone downhill, not because they didn't make it in the first place, regardless of whether you or anyone else agree whether Sports Night or the John Laroquette show (to a much, much lesser degree) were good shows that didn't find their audiences. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions and it's based more squarely on some of the earlier stuff I'm less sure on the timing of, as I just looked again and he was also in some mroe established shows like Dynasty, and indeed Happy Days at some point, but the articles mentioned guest appearances in particular and those looked very thin to me... (Oneiros)

The idea that Ted McGinley is the patron saint of shark jumping was originated by the founder of jumptheshark.com, Jon Hein. If you want more information, I suggest you visit his Ted McGinley page[[1]]. Redfarmer 03:35, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

He is a highly visible replacement actor/character who came in to successful shows later in their run, continuing until their end. Programs include Happy Days, Married: With Children, Dynasty, The Love Boat. Because the loss of a key original character (like Ritchie in Happy Days who was replaced by Ted's character Roger), as well as replacement characters are both important possible shark jump events, McGinley is someone who comes to mind when thinking about shark jumping. It doesn't mean he himself is responsible, nor that his actual character arrival itself caused a jump, just that he seems closely aligned with the concept. He does indeed have a section to himself on the original jump the shark website. Asa01 23:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Maude Flanders

Maude Flanders was not exactly a major charater, though she was recurring. I don;t think her death counts as jumping the shark.[[User:Nricardo|--Nelson Ricardo >>Talk<<]] 23:57, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

If you go to jumptheshark.com, you'll notice that The Simpsons is one of a select few shows generally considered to have "never jumped," although with each new season fans increasing declare that the show is decline. Still, Maude Flanders' death has been cited by some as a "jump the shark" moment. --Feitclub 19:40, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

Sealab 2021

I don't believe the mention of Sealab 2021 is warranted. The show, in the instance of having a shark jump over a tank of Fonzies, was parodying the classic Happy Days episode, something that has been done by several other shows (most notably, The Simpsons and That '70s Show). This does not constitute a jump the shark moment.

I will delete that part of the entry in 48 hours unless someone can provide me with a rationalle for keeping it up. -- Redfarmer 17:18, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm totally with you on that. The Simpsons also parodied the idea of "jumping the shark" in the clip show "Gump Roast," where Homer literally jumps the shark. Strangely, on Jump the Shark some users have listed that as a moment when The Simpsons had declined. Szyslak 02:24, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Possible combination?

Should we combine sections two and three? Put specific examples under the general category?

Because if we're not, then there's no reason for adding those JTS terms (which I think really belong over there and not here) in bold to the entries.

Daniel Case 2005-02-01 1:08 a.m. EST

Not jumping

In the "Examples of shows said to have jumped the shark" section are lots of examples I would not count as "jumping the shark." A lot of the examples are big changes to a series without making it worse, individual bad episodes, or gradual declines in quality over time - I think these don't count as shark-jumping. The article lays out fairly well that "jumping the shark" is a sudden and irrevocable hit, a point-of-no-return. Examples of things in the list which I do *not* consider to be jumping the shark: Louie Anderson's revival of Family Feud, Homer Simpson becoming "much stupider in later seasons", original Star Trek episodes which were terrible while the series itself remained strong until the end, and people watching Teletubbies to see if the purple character was gay. None of these are pivotal damning points in a series. - Brian Kendig 00:21, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Length

Is the intent to upload the whole web site here? Most of these examples are highly subjective, and the categories keep elaborating on a few general ideas (e.g. a major cast change). Why not trim to the most blatant examples? Gazpacho 03:08, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• I'm tempted to agree with you and Brian Keding above. People seem to be listing any potential jump the shark moment, whether or not it actually signaled or caused a severe downturn in the show's quality or popularity. "Life With Bonnie"? I've not seen the show but it's been on for, what, a couple years? That change must have happened in the first season or so, hardly enough time to see if it was a real quality show before or if it's getting much worse. Most shows start to go downhill after many seasons, and picking an arbitrary moment and giving it undue significance is dumb (would anyone have even noticed Maude Flanders' death if it weren't for the episode in which it occurred, and 1 or 2 afterwards where they reference it?). This list is too long and arbitrary. Click the website link to get the details and discussions. The only one's that really deserve mention are the ones where a clear change for the worse was made, like the Brady Bunch's Oliver, the new kid on Family Ties, (I'd almost argue Urkel, but the show wasn't good to begin with, and got more popular with his arrival, though it marked a new low in television in general (Ok, slight exaggeration)) and others like that. This should be addressed. -R. fiend 14:44, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I came here to suggest that the inherently subjective list of 'shark jump' moments be removed. Since I find people have already suggested it, I've gone ahead and done it. There is a whole website where people can discuss these moments. DJ Clayworth 17:49, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, maybe a bit extreme, but I have no problem with it. However, I think just a couple examples could maybe be added into the text to illustrate the point. Not having them as a list would prevent it from growing to the bloated extent it had been. This would still have a few problems of subjectivity, so I won't really press it. -R. fiend 18:06, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I was going to add some jump moment nominations for Buffy the Vampire Slayer only to find the section had been removed overnight. Buffy had the most jumps nominated which shows I am not the only one who thinks the show seemed to try to jump nearly every week (I finally stopped watching after the fifth season). I hope I didn't add too much to the paragraph on Buffy. I think the show deserves a special mention for a possible jump attempt record. 68.6.237.125 19:09, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC) (I prefer to remain anonymous. I don't want everyone to know I was a Buffy fan.)

Was there really a specific bad decision during the course of Buffy, in an attempt to revitalize it, which ended up dooming the show thereafter? If not, then it didn't jump the shark. I didn't follow Buffy, but it seems to have remained strong through the end. - Brian Kendig 19:15, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[plug] I'm a moderator on a discussion forum with a current and highly active thread asking when it jumped [/plug]; so far there have been about thirteen different suggestions (some vague - such as "the whole of season 6", some specific - such as "the wedding episode"), and several denials that it ever jumped at all. My personal vote went to the moment in season 5 when it became clear that the Buffy/Spike 'ship was going to be taken seriously; it looked like a weak attempt to draw in a bigger audience, and forced the whole story for the remainder of the series. I think that fulfils your terms... Kinitawowi 10:35, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to see a few good examples recovered from that list and put back into the article. The aforementioned Brady Bunch and Family Ties kid additions were certainly "jump the shark" moments. Another was Ellen; her "coming out" quickly turned the show into a commentary on gay issues and killed it within a season. - Brian Kendig 19:11, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There were somethings in the list that I agreed with, while there were others that I really didn't agree with. It might have been better to add a note that some of the shows are debateable, or even make another article(s). I don't have a problem with it though.

Well, the problem is all the shows are debatable; there's even a link right to the debate itself which is at jumptheshark.com. I do think some of the typical jump the shark moments can be illustrated with some examples (the introductions of the new kids seem to be the most clear examples for me, maybe becuase they're such a blatant ploy that is bound to fail). Bringing back the list in full, or even a substantial part, is not a good idea, I am now convinced. -R. fiend 19:32, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah that true. There will always be debates about whether a show or shows has ever jumped or not. It doesn't bother me that the list is gone.

My suggestion would be to have shows discuss their criticisms and shark jumping moments listed in that show's article. Every show may end up linking here that way but that's probably more managable and easier to NPOV. Also, this information is already available at jumptheshark.com so we don't have to really give too many examples anyway. :) --Sketchee 02:58, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

Don't delete stuff

A note to 205.188.116.73, 64.12.116.73, and others: Please don't delete other people's comments from this talk page. - Brian Kendig 02:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Subjectivity warning

Since there seems no resolution to issue of whether or not to include the list of examples, I add a warning regarding the subjectivity of the list - 'cos I don't know about the rest of you, but every entry on that list I agree with, there's at least one I don't. Lokicarbis 12:41, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

Putting a few examples back in

It seems most people feel that the removal of the list was a good move, but there is still some feeling that a few examples should be mentioned to illustrate the point (beyond the obvious Happy Days one). I was thinking that where it mentions some of the common jump the shark moments, an exmaple or two could be added to the most common and damaging tpypical moments. Removal of a main character, introduction of a new character (the "cute kid" being the best example, in my opinion), main characters marrying/having sex, and a cliche plot device are some of the best examples. Some examples I think rarely qualify, like changing when a show airs (happens all the time and rarely has an impact in the show itself), clips shows (lame in themselves, but seldom alter a show), merchandising, and others are usually not relevant. Anyone want to suggest 5 or 6 of the most egregious shark jumping moments, or is it better without any examples at all? -R. fiend 21:37, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm okay with a few examples. Cite the source though. Just say that a "jumptheshark.com poll claims" such and such as examples. If the reference is claiming it and not Wikipedia then I guess it's clear that it is not a fact but someone's opinion. (Though it's a fact the site states it.) :) Beyond that encyclopedic overview, everything the reader wants to know is on jumptheshark.com already anyway and we've linked it. Sketchee 04:13, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)

Well, as far as the main characters having sex goes, Moonlighting is probably still the classic example (although a case can be made for The Nanny, among others)... It occurs to me that perhaps we should also include counter-examples of these - the same circumstance, but generally agreed not to be a sharkjumping moment. But those could be even harder to come by... Lokicarbis 04:09, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)

Subjectivity will always be a problem with things like this, but if we can't say with some certainty at some point that any show had ever jumped the shark then we have no business saying such a phenomenon actually exists in an encyclopedic context. As for the having sex, yeah, Moonlighting is a good example, I guess. As a personal aside though, I have to mention Northern Exposure. I rarely watched the show, but I still recall 2 or 3 times when the two main characters had sex, and each time they still wanted to portray it as a groundbreaking event, as if each was "the first time" after long periods of slowly building sexual tension. It didn't work. Still not worth mentioning in the article; I just felt like saying it. -R. fiend 04:47, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to do whatever it takes the list back in, and nobody's going to stop me; I'll just re-put in the examples that are not too "sexual", you know what I mean, like how Who's the Boss? jumped with sex relations?--Roadrunner3000 00:00, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Removal of Buffy from References section

I took it out simply because it's a theorised reference - every other one is an actual reference that occurred in the show, not an interpretation. Lokicarbis 08:46, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)

• I agree that it would be a marginal thing for most shows, but Buffy was always about subtext, so such an unstated refrence is to be expected; I'm saying it should be included. There was even a talking shark in one episode, for pete's sake. Thanks,
  Luc "Somethingorother" French 10:09, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
  • I had forgotten the talking shark... although surely he should be listed in the references if he's that emblematic Lokicarbis 10:57, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)
    • Remove it; the character is there for a different joke entirely (Spike owes him kittens; i.e. a loan shark...) Kinitawowi 18:10, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)
      • Actually I think that shark character also referred to that Xander/Spike exchange in "Restless" ("Shark with feet...and much less fins! -And on land!"). This is plausible since "Tabula Rasa" contained other "Restless" references. --Mikoyan21 10:55, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

South Park

South Park had a clip show in its second or third season which includes several shark jump references: clip-show flashbacks ("Who wants ice cream?"), an it-was-all-a-dream ending, and if I remember correctly, a flashback to the Happy Days shark jumping episode (where the Fonz accidentally kills Kenny).

I can't remember all the details, but I just thought I'd bring that up in case anyone wants to add it

-sims

Simpsons

This is to Boarshevik: I saw that final clip where Homer jetskiied over the shark, and I'm pretty certain the song said "we'll have ideas for years" (especially because that flows a lot better). Anyone else who saw that clip please weigh in here. -RomeW

"Stories for years." Fit better with the song. 100% it was. (courtesy of your local unreggied 209.6.87.181 06:58, 11 November 2005 (UTC))

Happy Days

HD may have produced 100 episodes after the shark jump episode - but they also stopped trying to have era-appropriate hairstyles and clothing, introduced Chachi... PMA 11:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I hate to be a killjoy here, but it's only a few weeks back that we cut the number of entries down to a manageable number. Now everybody has just added the name of their favourite show and when they think it jumped. Since there is a whole website dedicated to this, can't we just cut it down to a few (i.e. <10) example of special significance? Everything except the Happy Days entry is really just somebody's opinion. DJ Clayworth 21:54, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

New Link

In response to Clayworth's comments, I have created a new article called "List of shows that have Jumped the shark" and moved the complete list of entries to that page. A link to the new article is on this original page, located in the space where the original list was.

This list will differ from the JTS website in a few ways – there will be a limited number of short-lived programs (most short-lived shows are inferior programs whose JTS moment is "Day One"); and NO PROFANITY (the JTS site is littered with f- and sh- words, etc. in its entries). Otherwise, new additions can be added anytime so long as they are a legitimate JTS moment.

Hope this helps! User:Briguy52748 09:18, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I understand the desire to keep some of this, but the real trouble is that the whole list is subjective. No two people are going to agree about when this or that series "jumped the shark". Encyclopedias are here to provide factual information, not opinions. Imagine how much trouble we would get if we had an article "ten best television shows". This is just as bad. Plus I think we had just such an article as proposed above, and it was voted for deletion. DJ Clayworth 20:16, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Clayworth – Thanks for your response. However, please note that the new article has an advisory (as had the previous version of this article with the list) that the shows listed in the article are subjective and that people will likely disagree with some of the items on the list. In addition, the new article has been retitled List of shows that are widely considered to have Jumped the shark to make it more NPOV. User:Briguy52748 15:48, 5 May 2005 (UTC). (an addendum at 18:25 5 May 2005 by User:Briguy52748 -- Also, note that many other articles (e.g., the flop article and various links contained therein) have lists that, even though a majority of people agree with them, are in reality subjective in nature and thus subject to POV opinions. In addition, it should be pointed out that even with some entries I added, I actually disagree with the JTS moments, but yet I referenced those moments in recognition of others' opinions).

Buffy

From the references section: "Other "shark jumps" can be found in previous episodes of Buffy, including the introduction of Dawn Summers, Willow's "coming out", the setting moving from high school to college, Angel and Spike's drastic character changes, etc."

I don't know if I can agree with this. As far as I understand, Dawn's appearance and Willow's coming out were planned well ahead. The change from high school to college was surely necessary, unless Buffy and Willow were such bad students in high school they'd have to go another year in high school to graduate.

Leaving aside whether or not one agrees that the incidents listed are Shark Jumps, the whole section simply doesn't belong here - this part of the article is about references to Shark Jumping, not actual incidents of it. Thus, I have taken it out. (Possibly it belongs in some other part of the article?) Lokicarbis 09:19, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I have to somewhat disagree with Buffy Season 6 entry in this article - 'Jumping the shark' usually equals pressing the panic button, but most of the 'shocking developments' of Season 6 were in fact planned years ahead. If Buffy ever 'jumped the shark' it was storyline of Season 7 which pretty much screams "we don't really know anymore what we're doing". Reason for apparent slump in quality had little to do with "unexpected revival" after Season 5, but simply that Joss Whedon was busy with Angel and Firefly, and had little time to dedicate himself to Buffy. --Mikoyan21 11:01, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Simpsons info problematic

Gee, this seems very POV:

Fittingly, it's becoming more and more appearent that the show The Simpsons has jumped the shark, with new episodes paleing in compariston to earlier episodes to many people. Some of the most noticable aspects of new episodes that make them less funny is over-use of references to homosexuality, and violent family conflicts.

And I will delete it unless there's some very persuasive objections. MinorEdit 06:09, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Delete. Very POV. If you don't, I will. -R. fiend 06:41, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Webcomics?

In the References in other media section, is it really neccecary to have the webcomics? It would be my thought that this section would be for well known examples, and I doubt that most people would have even heard of them. It seems to amount to self promotion. Even so, is there a need for two? --Poleary 15:50, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Even if we were to include them, the two that were there (now gone) were bad examples: One from a non-notable webcomic (i.e. one without an article) and the other was a background joke. The fact that nobody added the Basil Flint or Schlock Mercenary indicates we can probably leave webcomics out altogether. Nifboy 03:58, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Opposite Phenomenon?

I'm just throwing this out here, but is there a term for the opposite phenomenon, when a show suddenly gets good? I'm thinking of The Simpsons and Seinfeld, both sometime in their 3rd seasons. Just a thought. RMoloney 10:15, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

In a previous revision of the page, it stated that there are no such term. However, "reverse shark jumping" has been suggested by many to denote the point where a series improves dramatically. kelvSYC 05:13:48, 2005-09-09 (UTC)

I'm interested in knowing if there is a name for the law that states that the best part of every TV series is midway through the second season. Stevage 20:39, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Stargate & a bit more

For those few (or many?) of us Stargate fans, it seems like the series is exhibiting some of the symptoms expressed in this article, and may be a great example to site in the aforementioned article!

Also, Under Format/Premise where it mentions "When the show is in an academic setting," a great example is "Saved by the Bell" & the famously short lived "College years". --Stux 01:26, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I added Stargate to the part about series being extended late. It was referenced in the linked Wikipedia article, so I didn't look for another independent source (although I could if needed). - Zach Pruckowski

This is Wikipedia?

This page is about ten, fifteen times too long. Drop all the subjective examples, since the lot of you will never agree on which two examples are the most telling (that is, which two are /your/ favorite shows) and stick with a simple definition of the term and core example, and then link to either show pages, a new page with all these examples (NPOV my foot), or -- better yet -- jumptheshark.com. (I'm unfamiliar with editing Wikipedia pages; I believe I've properly added this comment, but please correct any stylistic error I've made here.) 68.95.224.34 17:39, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

References in Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban

The special edition second disk has an interview with the Weezlies (sp) where they suggest sending the family to see Harry at the school. The immediate response was "that would be a bit like jumping the shark"..

Also, title 10 chapter 79 of the disk.. inside a game where you play the knight running around the castle, there is a moat scene where a picture of a shark's fin is floating by the water, and you're supposed to click on a sword icon to jump over the moat (and the shark).

-- Sy / ^(talk) 23:33, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Getting out of hand?

The list of examples of shark-jumping moments seems to be getting back to where it was about a year ago, with people listing any potential shark jumping moment on any series. For example, Roseanne and The X-Files have 3-4 different moments listed. The list really needs to be trimmed to clear-cut examples, again, per the consensus reached above. Gershwinrb 23:32, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Totally agree. This article might as well be called "what I regret most about my favourite TV series". Most of the moments aren't shark jumps, and half aren't even major turning points in the series. Plots evolve. Characters come. Characters go. This article should really be restricted to bad decisions made by producers that in retrospect defined a turning point in the quality of the series. As in Happy Days, the shark jump didn't *make* the series bad - but the series before hand was, in retrospect, better. Similarly, any change that wasn't the producers' fault (eg, actor death or moving on) should not be here. Perhaps if we tighten the definition in the article it will be easier to throw out bad examples that get added. Stevage 20:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, now wait a moment. Agreed, certain changes – such as an key actor's death – aren't anyone's fault or something that can be controlled. However, all too often these moments change the course of the entire series. The actor's role is either killed off or assigned to a new actor, who may or may not be better than the origianl. Still, the change happened, it is noticable by the viewers and an appropriate "jump the shark" moment. My vision for this article is changes which are seen by viewers as contributing to a show's decline; death is one of those changes. BTW – it is listed [original JTS website].

[[Briguy52748 14:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC)]]

P.S. – To be fair, I will be consolidating some of the examples in the list. I originally created this list of JTS moment types (as a compromise to the original list of shows, which became an article and was later vfd'ed). I gave some specific examples, but not for every entry as I either could not think of an appropriate one or one was not really needed. I will be trimming the list further as time allows, but this will become a better article, that I can assure you of. [[Briguy52748 14:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC)]]

I agree that this needs to be trimmed and it needs to be vetted to remove attacks against shows. For example, there was no reason to list Enterprise as having jumped the shark since the change in format was actually critically acclaimed. And the death of a key actor is certainly not a shark jump - certainly I've yet to see anyone call it that with regards to West Wing losing John Spencer. The jumptheshark.com website has similarly gotten out of hand -- I mean there are shows there listed as having jumped on their first episodes. It's just an excuse to bash shows you don't like. IMO, "jump the shark" should be restricted to either creative and/or network decisions that were clearly detrimental to a series in some fashion. 23skidoo 15:02, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

But didn't Newsradio tank after Phil Hartman was murdered? And Chico and the Man after Freddie Prinze comitted suicide? The death of a key actor can be a jumping the shark moment, as it was with these shows, though it doesn't have to be. After all Night Court remained strong even though only three of the original cast memebers remained by the fourth season. Cheers had some of its strongest ratings after Nicholas Colasanto died and Shelley Long left. Hopefully this illustrates that what is a shark-jumping moment for one show might not be one for another, something that some of the editors of this list seem not to have realized. And that changes to a series beyond a producer's control can cause a show to jump. Gershwinrb 01:46, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

"jump the shark" is not a synonym for "suck" - otherwise this article has no point. Sure, Newsradio was worse without Hartman. But it's not a shark jump - it's just a sad fact of life. The whole point of this discussion is trying to rein in this definition of the term which is getting so loose as to be pointless. Stevage 19:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that in order to prevent things from getting out of hand, any show that has a moment listed needs to have an event of some sorts tied to the moment, i.e. a decline in ratings or cancellation after the fact or sudden derision by television critics. That seems a bit more of an encyclopedic method of building a list to me. I wouldn't go as far to delete the list, since it someday could illustrate a good point about when a show goes bad, but it needs to be tied to something to make it less subjective. Gershwinrb 01:46, 14 January 2006 (UTC) And if jumptheshark.com has really gotten to what 23skidoo describes it as, it may not be the best source...Gershwinrb 01:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC) I am pretty amazed with the improvement though. This list is definately getting there. Gershwinrb 03:31, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad a few of our readers like the improvements. It should be noted 23skidoo describes exactly the reason I created the original "List of shows considered to have jumped the shark" article (which was later vfd for several reasons, including POV and that it got out of hand). The jumptheshark.com Web site has gotten out of hand and includes extensive profanity and short-lived programs. That said, we need to take our complaints to the JTS Web site administrators, not air our frustrations about it here. [[Briguy52748 22:49, 14 January 2006 (UTC)]]

Confusing verb tenses

On December 22, 1963, Bonanza aired "Hoss and the Leprechauns," in which Hoss Cartwright (Dan Blocker) met a leprechaun, and no one believed him when he said so. Several viewers logged onto the Jump the Shark site and said, "We used to call 'Jumping the Shark' 'Seeing the Leprechaun.'"

I was unaware that people were routinely logging into the Internet in 1963. Ewlyahoocom 16:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Growing a beard?

I think this article needs to have more sources cited. I've studied media for a long time and I have never encountered the term "growing a beard" (apparently a reference to Riker in Star Trek TNG) as being some opposite to jumping the shark. I also removed the reference to Star Trek: Enterprise as it was strongly implied that the series jumped the shark when it moved to arc storytelling, when all evidence seems to point that it was actually a "grow a beard" moment (even if the show itself never recovered the ratings). 23skidoo 21:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Knight Rider Evil Twin

The Evil Twin in Knight Rider was Garth Knight, the KARR episodes were quite good.

Check the Knightrider article, they were early on and popularly received.

Cowboy Bebop?

Constant repeat broadcasts of limited number of episodes, to the point where the shows have contributed nothing significant (e.g., Cowboy Bebop, due to the repeated airings by adult swim of the 26 episode series over the course of four years).

Is this a "jump the shark" moment for Cowboy Bebop? Cowboy Bebop's original run had already ended for 2-4 years before adult swim began its broadcast. Sauvastika 03:43, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The picture of the Fonz?

Why is the picture of Fonzie jumping the shark in black and white, even though the entire Happy Days series was in color?

Off the mark

I think this article is way off course, right down to the introductory paragraph. Jumping the shark is when a show uses a silly publicity stunt to try to boost ratings. That's what they did on "Happy Days"; it was stupid, it was out of character, it was poorly executed and unrealistic. But it wasn't a format change. Garry Marshall didn't sit down with his crew and say, "In this episode, Fonzie is going to jump over a shark, and from now on we're going to do things differently around here." It was just a throw-away idea, which was the big problem.

Replacing main characters with different actors is not jumping the shark; that's just trying to keep a show together when it has grown bigger than any individual cast member. People quit. People die. Shows go on. They always have. It's not "jumping the shark" when a Broadway musical is performed with different actors; that's showbiz.

Changing from black & white to color is certainly not jumping the shark. More people owned color TVs by that time and it was deemed worth the trouble to change formats. Saying that's jumping the shark is like saying that every show or channel that broadcasts in HD is jumping the shark right now.

Bad writing is not jumping the shark. Bad writing is just bad writing. It happens. Many shows have had bad episodes, or even bad seasons, without any particular event considered jumping the shark. For that matter, any behind-the-scenes change shouldn't count; writers quit, producers quit... that's not something the average viewer literally sees happen on screen.

There has to be one moment, one defining on-air scene. Jumping the shark in Happy Days didn't last a season or two. It was a few seconds. That's all. The Fonz was water skiing, he jumped over a shark, the audience groaned, and that was the end of it. It has to be one specific moment where it became visible to practically everyone that ideas were running low. If it doesn't fit that, it's not jumping the shark. It's just crappy TV. If we hold the examples to that standard, this will be a much shorter list. Kafziel 17:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Kafziel – Your comments seem to indicate your problem is not so much with the article, but of the concept of "Jumping the shark" itself. You are correct in that TV shows go through changes over time; it's just when people aren't used to them, or when they seem to change the original funadmental premise of the show that a show JTSes. Each of the examples provided in the list have been cited on the JTS Web site as moments when the show made its "jump." Yes, I agree that opinions vary, but that's not the point. The point is, they are common JTS moments, have been cited as such and I say they should remain. [[Briguy52748 16:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)]]

Since "Jumping the Shark" was created and is promoted by its creator, who is an active contemporary figure, there should be no debate HERE as to what the term means: the correct encyclopedic thing to do is simply to use the creators definition. Anything else is by definition a statement of opinion. BarkingDoc 05:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The Simpsons

I just read the Simpsons section, and it seems to me that the whole section is not about jumping the shark at all. It's just about sitcom cliches and the sending-up of them. Can we remove them, except for the ones actually about jumping actual sharks? DJ Clayworth 18:40, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. While the listed examples were indeed TV show clichés spoofed on The Simpsons, they are examples of JTS moments. Oftentimes, when a show has been on the air for awhile, they resort to these clichés (such as inconsequential characters that detract from the main plot) in a misguided attempt to improve the show's standing among viewers, but things become worse. Check out the JTS website and you'll see many such examples. Perhaps there is a better way to state this (maybe shortening it and provide links to each episode name?), but it should remain in some form. [[Briguy52748 17:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)]]

I think it is a large amount of space dedicated to a very minor observation, which is that The Simpsons has made frequent intentional references to Jumping The Shark. My understanding is that things on wikip have to be at least marginally noteworthy to qualify for inclusion. Just the observation with one or two examples would be more than sufficient. BarkingDoc

Doctor Who

There's no way the regenerations of the Doctor could be considered jumping the shark because this is an intregal part of the show's format and is primarily responsible for the original series lasting for 26 years; it's not a "ratings trick" or a "desperation move" in any sense of the word; even the fast turnaround involving Chris Eccleston's Doctor is now known to have been pretty much planned all along. Similarly the "revolving door" cast on Law & Order doesn't count either as that's why that show has managed to survive more than 15 years. 23skidoo 15:10, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Website

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems strange to me that wikipedia doesn't have an article on jumptheshark.com. I don't really have enough information on it to write it myself, but since the website is so unique, an article on how the website works or special features if has would be nice. Anyone? Karatloz 12:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how THIS is not an article on jumptheshark.com. It would be like saying there should be an article, not on the text or context of War And Peace, but on the book itself. There isn't a difference. BarkingDoc 05:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

That's a ridiculous analogy. If you believe this article is actually about jumptheshark.com then go ahead and quote some text from the article that details that website. Karatloz is quite right, there's nothing in the article that explains how the website works or its special features, only a brief mention of the date it started. Anyone who had no idea what jumptheshark.com is would be no wiser after reading this article. 172.149.50.86 18:49, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I see your point. All I meant is that most if not all of the information in this article is drawn from that website. But you are right, there is no indication here that that is the case. BarkingDoc 20:28, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia jumps the shark.

The length and serious analysis in this article is a self-evident shark jump for Wikipedia.

Major Revision needed

As already noted by many people, the concept of jumping the shark and said examples are way too relative. Here are a few of the examples are in direct conflict of the purality responses at jumptheshark.com:

The Simpsons: Never jumped : 1592 Next closest: 151 (Homer gets stupid) Boy Meets World: Never jumped: 67 Next Closest: 49 (Wedding) Buffy: Never jumped: 771 Next Closest: 609 (Death - Tara) ST: Enterprise: Never jumped: 98 Next closest: 63 (Day one) Cheers: Never jumped: 187 Next closest: 133 (replacement) M*A*S*H: Never jumped: 314 next closest: 195 (Alan Alda moralizing) ST: DS9: Never jumped: 67 Next closest: 20 (Day one) Miami Vice: Never jumped: 32 Next closest: 32 (Death - Spyder) X-files: Never jumped: 421 Next closest: 224 (the movie)

These are just a few examples. Now, you may or may not like these shows. Some of these shows I personally don't like or never watched. However, that doesn't mean they "jumped the shark" - even if rating went down hill. (History shows that User:Jvsett wrote this comment [[Briguy52748 23:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)]])

Jvsett – While your point may be valid, this remark probably should be referred to the administrators at Jump the Shark's Web site. [[Briguy52748 23:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)]]

Briguy52748 - My concern is that most of examples are overbroad and not really neutral. I mean, there appears to be a lot of bias and unwarrented examples of purported "jumping the shark". I count over 70 differnt shows that are cited as jumping the shark; sometime in more then one way. While its true that there may be a problem with the concept of Jumping the Shark, and that might need to be taken up with the original site, should Wikipedia really have such a convulated article? Shouldn't it be edited to remove repeative ideas. In addition, the concept really only applies to television. Should music or books be including? Just my thoughts --Jvsett 01:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Jvsett – Let me give this some thought. I'm sure there are ways to improve this article, and perhaps a thorough revision is in order. I did once, I can do it again. [[Briguy52748 12:43, 22 March 2006 (UTC)]]

Yep the page has WAY too many examples - clearly people are just putting in all their fave shows under the guise of adding examples to illustrate a point but how many do we need. I've been deleted chunks and cleaning up, but a lot more can be done. I removed many entries which basically duplicated other entries already in the article. There's probably a number more of them still there that can be deleted too. Asa01 08:23, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

In Music

How about using Milli Vanilli as an example? After they were revealed to be lip-synching on stage, they fell into disgrace. But--counterexample--Jessica Simpson had a disasterous lip synch problem on Saturday Night Live, yet her career has not appeared to suffer.

I'm not an expert on popular culture or music, so someone else should write this up, if it's worth adding to the article. David 16:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Ashlee Simpson was the one who had the lip sync debacle on SNL, not Jessica, and she never really had much relevance anyway. Milli Vanilli were simply exposed as the frauds they always were; I'm not sure if that counts as a shark jump since their career was based on a lie anyway, and a downfall was inevitable.Raymondluxuryacht 08:30, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Books?

Could you say a series has jumped the shark? Like with the same criteria as a TV series? --EuropracBHIT 06:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC).

Jumping the shark is usually thought of as a TV term, but it can be applied to pretty much anything. In fact, Jon Hein's book has sections for TV shows, music, movie stars and directors, sports teams and athletes, and even politicians.Raymondluxuryacht 08:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Kings Island Misinformation

"Best known episodes include The Brady Bunch (including housekeeper Alice) on trips to Hawaii and newly opened Kings Island - a theme park owned by Paramount Studios, the show's producer, i.e. product placement."

Kings Island was not bought by Paramount until the 1990s.

Agreed, before Paramount bought King's Island and it's sister park, King's Dominion, they were owned by King's World Entertainment which explains the random existence of Hanna Barbara characters in the kiddie sections of the park. CritCol 15:59, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

None of this has anything to do with JTS at all! It does not need to be in this article. Asa01 08:24, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Too many examples

I've been deleting the multi examples from many entries, then people come back in and add them back and add new ones. How many examples does each entry need? Concepts such as "main actor dies and show continues" aren't that difficult to understand that we need ten examples illustrating the point?! Now Will Geer dying and The Waltons continuing has been added. I never knew anyone thought that Geer's disappearance from that show caused it the JTS. Seems many of the examples are just examples of the situation described, but they aren't all instances where the situation in that example caused that show to JTS. Basically this is a very problematic article... Asa01 19:38, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It is also completely wacky for it to actually SAY in the article that the examples used may or may not be examples of jumping the shark. Is there any other article where we would allow long lists of examples that may or may not be relevant? I honestly believe that all that should be here is a list of the terms and a link to jumptheshark.com, which is the only source for this page. The article right now is simply a sloppy attempt to summarize a single website, which is itself already thorough and well organized. BarkingDoc 20:40, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Star Trek: Enterprise

perhaps as an example when one part of a series jumps the shark? 69.199.55.143 00:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC)