Talk:Chevrolet Corvette

POV section

This MUST! be a European site... I've never seen sooooooo many excuses made up for Ferarri at LeMans. Why didn't you explain that Aston Martin was on it way to getting LAPPED by the C6 at Sebring until one of its 2,000 dollar Carbon-Carbon rotored brakes exploded! (this also happened to a C5-R, but it was fixed, finished the race, and the C5-R team still won) And they STILL were able to finish on the same last lap with a complete front end change had it been a 24 hour race instead of 12 the Vettes would have DEMOLISHED Aston Martin and ProDrive.

Oh yeah, you Euro's seem to think that "leaf springs" are some money saving device or something, pffff, huh, where ARE your engineering caps???

The leaf springs that are a HUGE part of the Vettes superior handling. They are transversely mounted (left to right) and that reduces sprung and unsprung weight, and lowers the center of gravity.As well as bringing weight inboard for a lower moment of enertia. They're made of a very HIGH-tech, lightweight and highly tunable,fiberglass composite.

If you wonder why the Covette team laughs and turns away when you guys say "LEAF SPRINGS haha"...

IT'S BECAUSE THEY DONT WANT YOU TO FIGURE OUT THEIR SECRET! LOL

and finally! The corvette winning is NOTHING new.. In America we race all types of cars.The SCCA has had a showroom class since the early eighties.. IMHO this is the ONLY class that represents the cars you and I buy... They install a rollcage, shave the tyres and then race. The Corvettes would win and fill the podium, soooo much and soooo often that BMW and Porsche had as many as 10 FULLTIME engineers in the pits. JUST to try and figure out why the Vettes were UNBEATABLE. Well.. all the German white-coats they could find, couldnt help.LOL So the Corvettes were given their OWN series. The Corvette Challenge....20 yrs ago!

No. Its not a sports car in the Brit sense of the word ...Its America's Sports Car!

The above does not seem to be signed, so I don't know who submitted it, but it is a bit of a rant and serves no useful purpose. Whoever wrote it, could you please back it up with facts and references? I particularly find the "leaf spring" portion interesting and would like to see some references to back up the suggestions that it "reduces sprung and unsprung weight, and lowers the center of gravity.As well as bringing weight inboard for a lower moment of enertia."

As for Corvettes winning races, which international championships have they won? Nasty 12:46, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what "international championships" have to do with anything, but check out the C5-R and C6-R sections in the article for mention of wins at the 24 hours at Le Mans. Mrand 13:34, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

International Championships??? UH ,,, NEWS alert! Championships, that take place ONLY in Europe, are NOT "International" they are "European Championships" and they are meaningless. Your silly observation serves no purpose... but to boost your silly little ego. I said "in AMERICA"... hello??? we race ALL kinds of CARS(BMW Porsche Ferarri Lamborghini etc...) look up SCCA(Sports Car Club of America) THIS is a discussion. So,,, your pointless quips are unwelcome here .. Read BEFORE you write,son.

Firstly let me say that I am not your son and I would appreciate it if you would refrain from insulting me by claiming such. Championships that take place in more than one country are international. Even those that only take place on one continent. European international championships are no more meaningless than American international championships (those which take place in the whole of the Americas and not just the USA). Secondly, I picked international championships as there tends to be less bias towards cars made in one geographical area. Naturally those championships that only take place in the USA will attract more input from the American teams and less from their non-American competitors. I believe that you should heed your own piece of advice about reading before writing. Who won what is not in dispute, nor is whether the Corvette has won any or not, but to suggest that "the Vettes were UNBEATABLE" is misleading, even if they were relatively dominant for a period in a particular class of little international significance. I was hoping that someone would list a few and maybe the list could be compared with those of other sportscars of similar longevity, such as the Porsche 911. I feel that the Corvette is a remarkable car both throughout its history and in its current form, but I have no illusions as to how competitive it has been in motorsports. As for suggesting that my ego has anything to do with it, please explain why. Finally, notice that I sign my comments. If they are worth writing, they are worth signing.Nasty 00:26, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Wrong ! again I wouldnt dare consider you MY son, it was an abreviation ... lol More input ... pfffm, More Euroexcuses...pathetic. Your fooling yourself if you are dumb enough to believe that an American BMW Porsche Audi or Ferarri racing teams are any "less competitive" over here. Jees,, that is some kind of blind denial.After all WE (America) are THEIR largest markets,, AFTER ALL

Every team in 2005 that WON their class AT LeMans was an AMERCIAN racing team !!!!Look it up, JUNIOR..

AUDI,Lola,Corvette, and Porsche teams were all... YOU GUESSED it... American based AND run teams !! .LOL Sooooo get over you silly little EuroSupremecy trip and deal with it. We have a highly celebrated history of European car racing, here and it's VERY competetive. Still doesn't change the fact that Vettes dominate, in class, PERIOD. P.S. dont even get me started about Camaro Z28s and Mustangs pounding Porshes and such for a FRACTION of the operating costs, LOL signed sign

I live in Europe, but I am European in much the same way as a Cuban is American; I'm Irish. Please leave my continent of origin and residence out of it, as I have done for you. You accuse me of being in "some kind of blind denial" and yet it seems to me that you are. Since you only seem to be interested in insulting me and not in providing facts to back up your statements or having intelligent debate, I refuse to continue this debate.Nasty 10:19, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

lol

Is it a sports car?

Please vote (with a one-line answer, indented) on the following question:

Is this vehicle a sports car?

1. Yes
2. No - it's a GT car
3. No - it's just a sporty coupe
4. No - a dragster

--SFoskett 13:16, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

• Yes. —Morven 17:52, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
• Yes. SamH 16:55, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• No, its a GT--JonGwynne 01:45, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Yes. Stombs 23:17, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
• Yes
• Yes its the first american sports car EvolutioniuM 00:52, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
• Since this has been resurrected, I'll pick "no, it's a sporty coupe". —HorsePunchKid→龜 01:13, July 30, 2005 (UTC)
• Yes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by VetteDude (talk • contribs) 23:46, 2 August 2005.
• Yes. It was last I noticed. The first made in large numbers. There were pre-WW II American sports cars.--David R. Ingham 17:02, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
• Yes. From a broad, simplified encyclopedia view of the world, a Corvette is a sports car in exactly the same way that a Minibus is not a sports car. There are cars that blur the lines, but that's not the case here. EricN 13:20, 29 September 2005 (UTC)~

But the context of the question is not the "broad, simplified encyclopedia view of the world"; the listed choices make it clear that that a more technical (though perhaps jargony) description is sought. —HorsePunchKid→龜 23:50, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

• Yes. In fact, it also should be catorgorized as a supercar. NumbRemxed 17:03, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
• Yes and No. it is a sports car now but it's also a muscle car, maby even a sub exotic

The Corvette was never anything near a muscle car, nor was it ever marketed as one or built with the intent of compeating with them in sales or on track. 24.89.215.104

Is it the first production engine with more than 1hp per cubic inch?

There is at least one example of a car which has more than 1hp per cubic inch before 1957. The Porsche 356 Carrera 1500 GS did roughly 1.2hp per cubic inch in 1955. The question really boils down to how many cars need to be made for a car to be considered a production car. Nasty 18:05, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Ford also claims it for the 312 'bird. Trekphiler 10:44, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Can we remove this erroneous claim to being the first production engine with 1hp per cubic inch? It is not. So unless somebody can suggest different wording for:

The number was derated by Chevrolet's advertising agency for the 283HP/283 in³ (4.6 L) "one hp per cubic inch" slogan, making it the first production engine in history to reach 1 hp/in³

Perhaps the following would be better:

The number was derated by Chevrolet's advertising agency for the 283HP/283 in³ (4.6 L) "one hp per cubic inch" slogan, making it one of the first mass-produced engines in history to reach 1 hp/in³

Nasty 12:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm a big fan of the Corvette, but I have to agree with the above. The wording MUST change, if not go away completely. It appears that Chrysler's Hemi engine, optional on the 1956 300B, was a 354 cubic inch V8 rated at 355 horsepower. This would indicate that Chevrolet's 1957 claim as being the first with 1 HP / cubic inch was pure marketing. Mrand 13:16, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

BUZZZZ! wrong! Chysler's Hemi(a stolen design from Zora Duntov's Flathead Ford conversion from 1948) was the not quite at the "1hp per cubic inch mark"... The high compression version had too few buyers to qualify.SRY Mopar fans!

http://www.chrysler300clubinc.com/myweb/1956300b.htm

(indented above comment by 24.221.11.138 that this is a response to) If you think I'm a Mopar fan, you're sadly mistaken. I live and breathe the Corvette, but I can be objective about it. The comment about the design being stolen does not influence the FACT that a 10:1 head was placed on 300B's that produced 355 HP. So which part of my statement was wrong? You said the high compression version had "too few buyers." How many were sold? I read one place that they were installed by dealers rather than at the factory - if that is true, that could influence the decision about it being called a production item.Mrand 13:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

How many are needed for a unit to be considered to be production? I am quite sure that I can find 10 road-legal cars which produced more than 1hp per cubic before the Corvette. Porsche alone had at least three different road-legal models which produced roughly 1.2hp per cubic inch. Jaguar, Alfa Romeo and Ferrari all had cars which did in excess of 1hp per cubic inch before 1957.Nasty 01:17, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I have made the change as nobody has been able to verify that it was indeed the first. I'll change it back if anyone can provide a valid reference to prove that it was the first production with 1hp per cubic inch. Nasty 16:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The answer is a hundred units during the fifties Its like 1500 now. If low production street racers counted such as the Porches you mention,,, then 1hp per inch would go way back to the Duesenburg days in the 30s. Not to mention the THOUSANDS of hotrods on the streets in the USA during the 40s, 50s and 60s.

If 100 suffices, the type Porsche type 547 engine was produced in greater numbers than that (at least 90 550s and a good number of Porsche 356s had it too). Nasty 20:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

less than that... 39 models(with that engine)in 56 were made. Once again,,, the Smallblock Chevy was the first MASS PRODUCED 1 hp per cubic inch motor. http://www.sportscarmarket.com/profiles/2005/February/German/index.html

Only 39 550As had the 1500 type 547 engine. There were many 550s with the engine well beforehand. Assuming that the 39 for the 550As is correct, and the 90 for the 550s is too, that makes well in excess of 100. That is completely ignoring the number of 356s with the same engine.Nasty 14:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Technical inaccuracy in text

The following is inaccurate:

The relatively simple pushrod V8 engine is both lighter and physically smaller than the more complex arrangements, as well as cheaper to manufacture.

It is both heavier and larger than a complex inline 4 cylinder engine with VVT and DOHC and alloy block. As I do not have the figures for manufacturing either, I can not comment on that aspect, but I would be surprised if is cheaper too. Nasty 18:13, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think the above quote is referring to inline 4 cylinder engines, but rather engines which are competitive with the Corvette in terms of power. TomTheHand 19:42, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

• Accepting that it does not refer to engines of lesser power, there are many examples of more powerful engines which are lighter, primarily due to use of complex lightweight alloys. The suggestion that by making a simple large capacity engine it will be both cheaper and lighter than a smaller capacity, but more complex engine of similar performance is incorrect. A complex alloy block engine will be more expensive but lighter and more powerful than a simple iron block engine. Nasty 10:19, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

The Corvette has an alloy block engine. I've done a bit of Googling, and while I can't find bare engine weights for a wide variety of engines, I did find that the LS6 engine weighed under 400 lbs and produces 405 hp; by comparison, the Mustang Cobra's aluminum DOHC 4.6L V8 weighed nearly 600 lbs and produced 320 hp. This information is readily available because American car manufacturers offer their engines for sale directly to the public, and it'll be more difficult to Google bare engine weights for foreign car manufacturers. If you could provide such information I'd be happy to accept it, but I was under the impression that the Corvette's engine provides exceptional power to weight. TomTheHand 12:03, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Just noticed that the LS6 is under 400 lbs "naked", but almost 500 lbs with A/C, power steering, etc. I'm not sure if the Ford 4.6 engine weight is with or without accessories, and I need to go to work so I can't continue to check it out. However, assuming the weight for the Ford IS with accessories, the Corvette engine is still 100 lbs lighter and makes 25% more power. TomTheHand 12:11, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

The Noble M400 uses a Ford Duratec V6 based engine which weighs 360lbs fully dressed. The Noble adds turbos, but the naked Duratec V6 with the turbos added should still weigh less than 400lbs. The Lotus Esprit Turbo V8 weighs 465lbs dressed. The BMW M3 CSL produces 360bhp from an inline 6 which I would be very surprised to find is heavier than 500lbs fully dressed. The Ferrari F50 engine weighs 432lbs, though I can't be certain that is fully dressed. I too have found it difficult to find details as to what the exact weights are of various engines, though one site has some information http://www.241computers.com/ford/ContentExpress20-30-38.html. My figures for the Corvette engine weights (600+lbs) are out of date. As they were the basis for my argument and as I can not find sufficient information to back up my belief that the sentence is inaccurate, I withdraw my challenge. Nasty 17:59, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Just wanted to add to this, a decent comparison is the L98 and LT5 offered the same year. The highly sophisticated all-aluminum LT5 weighed about 30 pounds more than the iron block/aluminum head L98. OHC engines will weigh more, all things being equal. They will also generally be taller and wider due to the bigger heads. The main "complex" alloy used in engines is aluminum. I suspect even F1 engines are made out of aluminum. There's not a lot else that's lighter that you can make an engine out of. In 1997, the Corvette got an all-aluminum pushrod motor. As an aside, I'd be skeptical of weight claims from small manufacturers who trade mostly on the image of high-tech. It's unlikely anyone will pull their Lotus or Ferrari motor and put it on a scale. But a Ford or Chevy motor is much more likely to be discovered if the manufacturer lies about weight. The LSx motors are light for their power and configuration. -Bob 11 Dec 2005

I would also like to point out that Corvettes are no longer made from fiberglass. The statement in the beginning is inaccurate. The C4 model introduced a new reaction injected molding plastic (material used to make car bumpers). All Corvettes from then on were made from this material. NumbRemxed 17:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Some of the text on the ZR-1 is not exactly accurate. 1991 had the significant change in the way the body looked, and had new wheels. This was the year all Corvettes got the square taillamps and rounded-out back end. In 1990, all Corvettes also had a high-mounted CHMSL. It was in 1991-95 that only the ZR-1 had it. Also, for the performance/power comparison, why not go with 1990 instead of 1995? In 1990 the car was practically the top of the heap. It made more horsepower than practically any car save the Testarossa (390hp) and Countach (low 400's). By 1995, the Viper was on the scene along with many other hi-po cars. I mean the ZR-1 is still fast 15 years later, but in 1990 it was practically unbeatable. -Bob 11 Dec 2005

One things for sure, all those Moslers, Ultimas, Monaros, Marcos, Vettes, CTS-V Caddys, owe ALOT of their great handling to the Smallblock Chevy V8's very low center of gravity!! Only a Boxter engine is lower.. which explains the break-away-rear-end style handiling those 911's have.

The 911's handling is a bit better explained by the fact that the engine is completely behind the rear axle, rather than the boxer configuration. Porsche's own 914, Boxster, and Cayman, being mid-engined cars, do not suffer from the same handling issues; nor do other modern boxer-engine cars such as the entire Subaru lineup, which uses a front-mounted H4 or H6 along with all-wheel drive. Ayocee 02:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes the silly rear engine placement does promote extreme over-steering tendancies. BUT its the low low low center of gravity that makes it that "all or none" kind of grip. Or, instant breakaway, without warning. This is also evident in the Porsche Cayman and Cayman S which are midengined with Boxters. Awesome handling, but tricky at the limit as well. The Subaru has a much higher placement of the engine in its chassis, than the Porsche. So the low center effect of the H4/H6 is greatly reduced.

POV? Style?

The car is widely regarded as a "poor man's supercar", although this description is intended to be complimentary. Corvettes have a long history of melding exceptional handling and brutal amounts of engine power into an affordable package that is drastically less expensive than prestiguous marques with similar abilities. This has understandably led to some scorn of the Corvette by owners of such competing marques, with most of the criticism being aimed at the Corvette's level of refinement. Older generations of the Corvette have been criticized for being brutish when compared to European sports cars, although the C5 and C6 generations seem to have silenced all but the most strident of such critics.

This whole paragraph is devoid of any useful information and should probably be deleted. I don't know much about cars, but from a style perspective, the above text is a blight on an otherwise decent article.

• "The car is widely regarded...", by whom? References?
• "...melding exceptional handling...", among comparable cars, is the handling of a Corvette an exception?
• "...brutal amounts of engine power...", reads like a glossy brochure, not an encyclopedia
• "...an affordable package...", to whom? This is clearly POV
• "This has understandably led...", is not only POV, it's narration.
• "...most of the criticism being aimed at...", who is doing the criticizing?
• "...the C5 and C6 generations seem to have silenced all but the most strident of such critics.", is ad hominem. Categorizing 'critics' as 'strident' does nothing to invalidate any claims they make.

The third paragraph has similar problems:

This lack of sophistication is sometimes viewed as a negative by extreme automotive purists, and has fueled the aforementioned "lack of refinement" argument. Regardless of the validity of such criticism, no one can deny the power, efficiency, and affordability of the design.

• "...sometimes viewed as a negative by extreme automotive purists...", reference or delete. Claims like this need substantiation.
• "...no one can deny...", This text is junk. Anything is deniable.

Lack of sophistication??? huh??

The Vette helped pioneer things like antilock brakes(since early 8os)composite materials(which the WHOLE industry uses now)Airbags,electronic ignition(GMs HEI)electronic engine management and individual coil packs, tuned port fuel injection. This is a silly uninformed world who thinks overhead cams and 4 valves per cylinder on a inline engine is soooo high tech,,, BS! Actually, OHV engines apeared AFTER the Doubleoverheadcams/multivalve/supercharged, Duesenbergs from the 20s.

I'm loathe to just start deleting from an article I know little about. Perhaps somebody with a little car knowledge could tidy this up? EricN 13:20, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I copy-edited the article a while back[1], and that paragraph really rubbed me the wrong way, too. I didn't attempt to rewrite it, though, since—although it does read like a sales brochure—it does capture my perception of the car reasonably well. I don't think the entire paragraph can just be simply deleted, in any case. For example, the notion of affordability, while naturally POV (as you point out), is a very important aspect of the car's place in the market and in automotive history. I don't have the time just this minute to look at all of the specific problems you enumerated, but at a glance, I would say that a good first step would be to tone down some of the wording ("brutal" and such). —HorsePunchKid→龜 00:09, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I have made a number of improvements to this area to make it read a little more NPOV and such, but 67HEAVEN reverted all my changes. I have restored the changes and asked him/her to comment on the changes being made before reverting them again. The changes were: "Corvettes have a long history of melding exceptional handling and brutal amounts of engine power into an affordable package that is drastically less expensive than prestiguous marques with similar abilities. This has understandably led to some scorn of the Corvette by owners of such competing marques, with most of the criticism being aimed at the Corvette's level of refinement. Older generations of the Corvette have been criticized for being brutish when compared to European sports cars, although the C5 and C6 generations seem to have silenced all but the most strident of such critics." to "Corvettes have a long history of melding brutal amounts of engine power into a package that is affordable when compared with more prestiguous marques of similar abilities. There has been some criticism of the Corvette, with much of the criticism being aimed at the Corvette's comparative low level of refinement. Older generations of the Corvette have been criticized for being brutish when compared to European sports cars, although the C5 and C6 generations have reduced the level of criticism." This change reflects that historically much criticism of the Corvette has been due to its handling and that the handling was most definately not "exceptional" in a good sense. Similarly, the Corvette is not seen as a marque without prestige. I have also change the language to be a little more like an encyclopedia should have (replace "drastically less expensive than" with "affordable when compared with"). I have dropped "Regardless of the validity of such criticism, no one can deny the power, efficiency, and affordability of the design." as correctly pointed out above, it is junk.Nasty 10:39, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Only euros dont like the Corvettes handling, cause they can't handle the throttle controlled rear end steer.All euro cars were so underpowered (till the late 70s)that they had to rely on exotic metals, stipped interiors and no accesories(AC PW steering) to save every last ounce of weight for those anemic little engines to have any thrust. The constant tuning of the engine was rediculous jus to hold peak power.Engine life was a about half of a typical Vette V8.rebuilds were comonplace in the Eurosports car camps . Europes finest was making their name in the days of GM's selfimposed BAN on racing. So the Vette only had a FRACTION of the racing developement support it needed to realy dominate.( it still took millions of FOrd dollars and AC and Carrol Shelby to finaly beat them..lol) Now they have that MUCH needed factory support and Corvette Racing's long list of victories reflect this. Regardless,, people who had the skill to master the V8's massive torque loads to the IRS's LSD were extremely fast in a race prepped vette, even in the 70s.

Merge 2006 Z06 into Chevrolet Corvette article?

Yes, it is a variant of an established vehicle and who would care about the 2006 article when it is 2007? Wikipedia is full of..cobwebs, let's not contribute more. However, the 2006 article reads like pure marketing gloss, and would need major surgery before parts of it would be suitable for a NPOV encyclopedia --Sirimiri 04:34, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Credit where it's due?

Myron Scott named her? I've always thought it was H. J. Earle... Also, not so slight Zora, I'd give cred to the app of Iacocca's T-bird as a prod to GM keeping the 'vette in production... And (while I can't cite the source) the 283 wasn't first 1hp/ci engine, tho 'vette propaganda has it so... Trekphiler 09:30, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Factual inaccuracy?

5 GS left? I was under the impression only 4 gennie GSs were ever built... Trekphiler 09:37, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

ZR-1 Performance

I deleted this:

"According to contemporary data, 1993 to 1995 models with the 405 Horsepower LT5 run 0-60 in 4.5 seconds and are capable a top speed of slightly under 180 miles per hour. The following data is for comparison purposes:

• 1995 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 - 4.5 seconds
• 1991 Porsche 911 (964) Turbo 3.3 - 4.7 seconds
• 1992 Porsche 911 (964) Turbo 3.6 - 4.4 seconds
• 1995 Porsche 911 (993) - 4.7 seconds
• 1995 Porsche 911 Turbo (993) - 3.9 seconds
• 1997 Porsche 911 Turbo S (993) - 3.7 seconds
• 2004 Chevrolet Corvette - 4.8 seconds
• 2001 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (385 horsepower) - 4.3 seconds
• 2003 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (405 horsepower - 4.1 seconds
• 2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 (505 horsepower) - 3.8 seconds
• 2006 Dodge Viper SRT10 Coupe (510 horsepower) - 4.2 seconds

"As is illustrated here, the ZR-1 was very fast, it was slightly quicker to 60 miles per hour than the 1991 911 Turbo, only 4 years it's elder and a car that had been both among the world's fastest cars at it's debut and had been more expensive than the 1995 ZR-1. Although the ZR-1 would have struggled somewhat to match these vehicles on a track, contemporary road tests indicated that the ZR-1 was more than capable of holding it's own, and often won points for it's lower price and slightly less demanding demeanor at the limit. It wasn't until the debut of the C5 platform Z06 that Chevrolet had another version of the Corvette capable of matching the ZR-1's performance, albeit it at a base price of almost $52,000 before sales tax."

You oughtta be in pictures

I stumbled across the Dutch & German editions of this article, & they've both got better pictures! I lifted these from the Polish.

1965 Chevrolet Corvette

1965 Chevrolet Corvette

The '60 is from German:

Corvette 1958-1960 Corvette C1

USS L88?

If anybody cares, in '67, there were just 20 L88s built... Trekphiler 10:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Leaf springs

I've moved the leaf springs section to a separate article because it hurt my eyes. I've also cleaned and sectioned it a bit but there's still a lot of work. Someone who knows about these things could write a little bit concerning leaf springs in the section here. The main part should be in its own article though. Keep in mind that the article is already very long, maybe some other sections could be moved to their own article. Piet 10:44, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Source for detailed Corvette info

If you want to use my information on the 5th generation Corvette (1997-2004), you're welcome to use whatever information you want. http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=984927

Regarding SAE Gross power ratings for 1967-1970 corvettes

In the late 1960s and early 1970s the American government began to take a keen interest in the notorious massive-displacement, extremely high output V8 engines that GM, Ford and Chrysler were producing in very high numbers. Specifically the Ford Big-Block, GM Big-Block and Chrysler Hemi engines were infamous for putting out obscene amounts of horsepower and torque, as well as obscene amounts of pollution. Between 1967 and 1970 emissions regulations primarily targeted the largest and most powerful of these engines, mainly those displacing approximately or over 400 cubic inches. As mentioned in the C3 section, GM used SAE Gross measurments for horsepower and torque. The SAE Net measurements were far more accurate and more accurately measured the declining power levels that resulted from harsher regulations as well the usage of unleaded fuel. Underrating or overrating power ratings happens frequently in the automotive industry, though more specific SAE measurement standards have curbed this over the years. In those years however the inaccuracy of SAE Gross ratings made it childs play for automakers to claim that their engines generated a significant amount more or less output than they actually did. I mention this because it is simply not true that the most famous of the muscle-car era corvette engines, the optional 427 cubic inch L88 Big Block V8 that made its way into less than 20 Corvettes in 1967 and less than 200 each year in 1968 and 1969, was offically rated by GM at 400 horsepower (SAE Gross measurement). Howerver when put to the dyno, this engine was obviously nowhere near 400 horsepower. Information from the National Corvette Museum shows that GM was obviously underrating the engine to avoid the unwanted attention from the "smog-police". On the timeline shown on the museums websiteit mentions that Chevrolet "quietly releases the L88 engine option for the corvette. The 427 cubic inch engine delivers 500 hp with open exhausts, and features a 12.5:1 compression ratio". To say that replacing the stock exhaust manifolds with a set of "headers" and removing the mufflers would add 100 horsepower to any engine is a joke. The 427 L88 is an icon in corvette history and deserves to be recognized as the performer it really was, not understated or, even worse in my opinion, ridiculously overrated as it is in a seperate section (560 horsepower in stock configuration is simply not true). There were many configurations of the 427 sold between 1967 and 1970, all representing the pinnacle of the corvette in the musclecar era before the dismal years of the mid 1970s, none of which should be misrepresented.

2003 ACO rule changes were not Corvette specific

The line "In 2003, additional restrictions were placed on the big 7 liter C-5R engines by the ACO in an attempt to slow the cars." suggests that the rule changes were Corvette specific, which is rubbish, they were applied to all cars dropping the maximum power for all of them by 10%. I have changes this to "In 2003, additional restrictions were placed on all competitors, reducing power by 10% in an attempt to slow the cars."Nasty 10:51, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Generation details need to be removed from main article

Sfoskett split out a section for each generation, but it appears that the content that got moved never got removed from the main article and replaced with a summary. As it stands right now, there are two main sources of information for each generation: one in a stand alone article, and one in the main (combined) article. Each of these are being edited and are morphing separately. Does someone have the time to do a quick paragraph or two summary of each generation and delete the remainder (so that the details will be in the stand-alone articles)? Mrand 21:19, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Similarly priced cars are faster on Nürburgring

"In the summer of 2005, GM and Corvette Racing driver Jan Magnussen brought the new Z06 to the Nürburgring in Germany. Magnussen drove the Z06 to a time of 7:42.99, only cars many hundreds of thousands of dollars more have posted faster numbers." This is just not true. Firstly, there are cars which would be of similar price which are faster (eg Radical SR3 Turbo does it in 7:19).Nasty 15:36, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The Radical is not a street car, so I think the comparison is unfair. You might as well compare the Corvette to a sport bike. Though "hundreds of thousands of dollars" is probably an exaggeration, I'm looking for figures and I can't see any similarly priced cars matching the Z06. 7:42.99 is faster than a Murcielago. The 997 Carrera S is a good 15 seconds behind, and the 997 GT3 apparently managed 7:47 during development and Porsche hopes to get it down to 7:42-7:45 before production... for over 60% more money. TomTheHand 12:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The Radical is a road-car. It is road legal and in production and therefore as much a road-car/"street car" as the Corvette. Radical were also very careful to point out that the car was in a road-legal guise when they tested it (it didn't have racing tyres or such). Actually on that point, can you point me at a reference which shows which tyres were used and whether they were road-legal for the country in which the test took place (Germany)? Nasty 13:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Last I checked the Radical must go through the Single Vehicle Approval process to become road legal, the same process used for kit cars and such. It obeys neither emissions nor crash test standards, and so I believe a strong case can be made that it is not a road car in the sense of a Corvette. TomTheHand 14:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Having to undergo the SVA does not make the car any less of a road-car. I would say that a strong case can be made in either direction, but it can be reasonably argued that the Corvette's claim does not stand. I have no problem with the wording being changed to something like the following:

"In the summer of 2005, GM and Corvette Racing driver Jan Magnussen brought the new Z06 to the Nürburgring in Germany. Magnussen drove the Z06 to a time of 7:42.99. Only a few street cars, some many hundreds of thousands of dollars more expensive than the Z06, have posted faster times."

This does not reduce the magnitude of the achievement and yet makes it less open to counter-claims. BTW, I have seen many references to this achievement, but nothing which gives proper details, such as changes to the car compared with standard showroom condition and tyres used for the lap.

I believe having to undergo the SVA most certainly does make the car less of a road-car. It does not pass crash tests, does not have an emissions-legal engine, does not even have a roof or trunk. It is a race car that can be approved for road use in some locations. It is a fine accomplishment and the power per liter is amazing but it is not a street car.

I stand by the position that no car of the same price matches the Corvette's performance on Nürburgring. "Hundreds of thousands of dollars" is an exaggeration and should not be used, in my opinion, but the Corvette does provide the best performance per dollar on Nürburgring and this should be indicated. It's not a matter of "only a few" being better; no real road car beats the Corvette on Nürburgring for a similar price. TomTheHand 16:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Throughout the history of the car, many have not had to undergo any form of crash worthiness tests and had no emissions regulations imposed on them and yet they were real road cars. Just because something has to pass these tests does not make it any more a road car than another which does not. If a car is road legal in a country, it is a road car (street car if you wish) in that country. The Radical is very much a race car, but it is road legal and therefore a road car too. There have been many homologation specials throughout history and they have been both race and road cars too. As for having a trunk/boot, I believe that the Corvette lacked one for a significant length of time, but I don't hear anyone claiming that it was not a road car at those times. As for providing the best performance per dollar on the Nurburgring, I don't know of any official measure, if you want to use something like (average speed)/cost, I'm sure that there are cars which are much better. The fact is that the claim can be reasonably challenged and therefore it can't stand without some form of modification or qualification (even if only changing to state that of type-approved cars, the only ones that are quicker are much more expensive).Nasty 18:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Again I must disagree with you. Yes, there was a time when cars did not have to care about safety and emissions, and yes, they were road cars back then. This is 2006, and cars have to obey safety and emissions standards for road use. Radicals can be, on a one-off basis, declared exceptions to the rules road cars must obey. That does not make them road cars, it makes them race cars which have been given case-by-case exceptions to be driven on the street.

The performance-per-dollar thing was a silly statement for me to make and I didn't really think it through. No need to develop an equation to calculate such a thing. However, I don't believe the claim can be reasonably challenged by any real street car and I'm willing to accept counter-examples but not SVA racecars that cost twice as much. TomTheHand 18:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Poor handling?

I'd like to see some sources stating that the Corvette handles poorly, and I'd very much like to know what the Corvette is being compared to. I'm prepared to be wrong, but I think that statement needs some backup. I did some quick Googling but the oldest hard figures I found were for a 1993 LT-1 Corvette, which pulled 0.94 G's on the skidpad and ran the slalom at 68.2 mph. Was the problem with the pre-C4 generations? TomTheHand 17:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

In an article which is quite complementory about the current Corvette, the following was said:

"What once was a crude and overpowered car prone to rattles and dicey handling in the wet has evolved into a world-class sports car,".

This suggests that it was once a wayward car when it comes to handling. This is a quote from the NY times as referenced in

http://www.consumersearch.com/www/automotive/sports-car-reviews/fullstory.html

In "World Sports Cars" by Frank Oleski and H. Lehbrink (1993), Duntov is reported to have said about the front and rear axles:

".. seemed to be permanently at war with each other ..."

In the same book the following is said of the 1956 Corvette:

"deficiencies: the brakes that were not up to the power of the engines, and also the chassis, hardly changed over the years - and really belonging in a museum"

The above quotes seem to be referring to older models. Based on that, it seems like any sentence about poor handling should mention something like "early models were especially criticized for poor handling." Mrand 12:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I agree, purely on the basis that the article (at least at this place) is discussing the Corvette as a whole and not one single model. I did not say that the Corvette has bad handling, just that it is one source of criticism (a frequent one AFAIK).Nasty 13:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand. The first quote mentions the car evolving into a world-class sports car. I don't see that as saying something negative about the handling of the current generation(s). Without context, the Duntov quote could be referring to older generations, or not. We don't know. The third quote specificly mentions 1956. I'd consider that as "referring to older models." I think my original comment was accurate. Mrand 18:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

An Autocar article (23/11/2004) says the following about the handling of the C06:

"For overall chassis response and composure the Boxster gobbles it alive. The Vette works nicely up to a point but then its over-stiff springs and dampers just have it skipping about. It’s not a huge problem, though – to reach that point you’ll have to be tanking on at ludicrous speed. The steering’s accurate but comatosed, the limited-slip differential isn’t the most reassuring of its type. And the ride… well, the ride’s better than before but our concrete motorway sections will expose it as way short of the European best. Its inherent choppiness and inability to cope with persistent small intrusions are cruelly amplified by the run-flat tyres’ lack of compliance."

Another Autocar article says of the history of the Corvette:

"During that time the Corvette has been many things to many men and women; fast, powerful, on occasions breathtakingly beautiful and, compared with its European opposition, often exceptionally good value. But at the same time it has also been thirsty, overweight, under-achieving in terms of suspension composure and decidedly non-cutting edge technically compared with its Euro rivals."

And again about the C06:

"That said, its handling is not especially sweet or communicative. The steering, though amazingly accurate, has little in the way of genuine feel, meaning the ‘Vette can be quite a difficult machine to place perfectly on the road. So responsive is the steering immediately off-centre that you can end up rounding corners in awkward bites, applying too much lock, then winding it off, then winding it back on again in minute but clumsy inputs at the wheel. You get a neurotic reaction from the rear whenever you apply steering lock. You’ll learn to apply lock in very small but smooth amounts, at which point the entire car seems to relax beneath you. It becomes a far more fluid handler."

I don't have any other info to hand, but from reading car magazines over the last few decades, my impression has always been that the Corvette offers huge performancce and at a very affordable price, but lacks the handling of a well sorted sportscar and is just a little cheap in terms of build. Nasty 23:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, the build quality is not the topic being discussed, so ignoring that, it is difficult for me to reconcile a few magazine claims of poor handling with the fact that it does so well at the track. Specificly, I'm referring to the C6 and C5, although I believe there were *rave* reviews of the very early C4 handling as well. Mrand 12:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, the above quotes seem to be dealing more with ride and feel than actual handling. The intro mentions the Corvette's lack of refinement, so I think we're covered there, though maybe more detail would be good. The numbers the car puts down are good and have been since the C4 generation. If we're going to mention poor handling we should make it clear that we're talking about early cars and that the Corvette has handled well for over 20 years now. TomTheHand 12:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that we have a conflict of definition of handling. I for one see road-holding (levels of grip) as either a subset of handling or an entirely a separate area. "Ride and feel" and predictability, control, feedback all come under the heading of handling. Doing well on a track can be down to many factors. There is no doubt that the C6 has good levels of roadholding on tracks and has lots of power which helps, but handling on ordinary roads is a completely separate issue. Ordinary roads tend to be much bumpier and have varying surfaces, neither of which seem to suit the C6 (from above references) or earlier Corvettes. Anyway, this is not relevent as I am not asserting that the Corvette has poor handling, just that it is one of the areas in which "There has been some criticism of the Corvette ..." I provided very reputable references (Autocar is probably the leading British car magazine) to back this up. I will happily withdraw this suggestion if you can find references from other equally reputable sources which suggest that the Corvette's handling is and always has been beyond reasonable criticism. I would request that you pick non-US-American sources to remove any suggestion of bias. Nasty 13:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we are dealing with different definitions of handling. I believe that "feel" is completely separate from "handling," and so while the Corvette may not feel like it drives as well as, say, a Porsche 911, it can be driven faster by someone who knows what they are doing. It's not simply raw power pulling the Corvette through, either; the C5 Corvette Z06, with its 405 hp, lapped Nürburgring in the same time as the 996 Porsche 911 Turbo with 420 hp, for half the price. Again, poor refinement is already mentioned in the intro, which I believe covers "ride and feel." I believe "handling" better refers to "ability to be driven fast" than "comfort and ease of driving." I also find it odd that you say that we must provide non-US sources, because THEY will be free of bias. European sources are no less biased than American ones. They're just biased in the direction of the point you're trying to push. TomTheHand 14:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that poor refinement covers "ride and feel". Poor refinement does not cover poor steering feedback which "feel" does. I believe that your definition of handling is more acurately defined as "road-holding" (see the entry for Car Handling). Also, feel does not in any way come under "comfort and ease of driving." Actually, quite often, increased car feel and communication are likely to reduce "comfort and ease of driving." I did not say that you must provide non-US sources, I just requested it, so as the make sure that their would be less suggestion of bias. If I was discussing the Porsche 911, I think that it would be inappropriate to use solely German sources. I agree that European sources are no less biased overall. Actually, I might even suggest that they are often more so, but only towards their country's cars and not other European countrys' cars. Thus, the British press is more likely to be more critical of German cars than of British ones, but no more critical of American than of German. BTW, I mixed my sources, including some US American (including Duntov himself). Even still, I feel that the fact is that I have provided valid reputable references which are critical of the Corvette's handling. Would I be right is saying that you maintain that they are only critical of its lack of refinement?Nasty 15:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that I am defining road-holding. I am not quoting skidpad figures, but rather overall performance. I'm fine with changing the intro to refer to poor "ride and feel" but not fine with saying "poor handling." Certainly feel is important in aiding a novice driver, or a driver who is new to the Corvette, to drive quickly. However, in the hands of an expert driver the Corvette is more capable than any car of the same price, and not simply around a skidpad but around a track. I would suggest that you yourself check out the article on car handling and see how much of it refers to "feel" and how much refers to the performance the car is capable of.

I also disagree that European magazines are in any way less biased. I feel that the sources you quoted above are heavily biased against the Corvette and ignore the actual numbers. "Thirsty, overweight, under-achieving in terms of suspension composure and decidedly non-cutting edge technically?" They were apparently not driving a Corvette built in the past 20 years, as the 'vettes have offered better mileage and similar power-to-weight to a 911 for at least that long. I am also rather bothered by the "non-cutting edge" issue that Europe keeps ripping on the Corvette about. European publications can't seem to stop harping on the "ancient" leaf springs that lower the Corvette's center of gravity while saving weight and providing world-class performance, or the ridiculously primitive pushrod V8 that produces more power than the BMW M3's 3.2L DOHC inline six while weighing less and giving better gas mileage. Again, I have no problem with a mention of the handling "feeling" bad as long as it is made clear that it isn't bad. TomTheHand 17:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I already stated that European publications are probably more biased, but on a country by country basis. Please remember that Europe is not a single country and there is much rivalry between different countries, but most of the countries are actually quite favourably disposed towards the US. Do you accept that the references that I quoted are criticising the handling of the Corvette? If so, do you accept that these are from reputable sources? If so, then is it not correct to say that there has been criticism of the handling of the Corvette? I am not saying that the Corvette has or has had bad handling, I am just stating that there has been such criticism by a number of reputable sources. I would even suggest that this criticism has been on-going since the inception of the Corvette and with the exception of the ZR1 (which was widely accepted as being quite good, IIRC), it has been seen as a weakness when compared with other similarly capable cars. If you feel that these sources are biased against the Corvette, please explain their motivation and provide to counter points from other publications. TBH, suggesting that Autocar is biased against the Corvette is a laugh as they actually rated the car quite highly, but they still criticise its handling. As to suggest that Arkus-Duntov is biased against it is quite incredible. Finally, the NYT? You can disagree all you want with their points of view, but to deny that there is criticism (no matter how invalid you might see it) from reputable sources is what is ridiculous.Nasty 18:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly, from the "Thirsty, overweight, under-achieving in terms of suspension composure and decidedly non-cutting edge technically" quote, you deal with all but that which refers to handling ("under-achieving in terms of suspension composure"). Whether you are bothered by the fact that most European publications see the Corvette as being "non-cutting edge" or not has absolutely nothing to do with this matter. I think that you will find that the criticism has little to do with the fact that the Corvette has pushrods or leafsprings, but more to do with refinement, smoothness, feel, etc. You will just find that many motor journalists do not actually understand much about the engineering that goes into a car and will blame leafsprings for poor composure on varying road surfaces rather than on a weak LSD, inapropriate tyres or poor suspension geometry. Finally, you have focused on track handling, which is about as close to real world handling as rally handling is, and both are very different.Nasty 18:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

As you said, numerous "non-US-American" sources are fairly blatently biased against engines with pushrods or the the Corvette's leaf springs, but not for any factual reason - only because they think it is old technology. So I don't think there is much value in finding a specific positive review from a "non-US-American" source. Having said all of that, I quickly found that Yahoo UK has a positive review. As for the ZR-1 getting good reviews, it just goes to show how poor the reviews are (world-wide). The only thing that helped were the larger tires - with the heavier engine, overall handling was not improved by many meaningful amount.Mrand 18:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)