Talk:Christianity

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Towards a todo list

Perhaps we should finally finish arguing over monotheism and moonism? We have too much else to do to fight over one word. I'm compiling the other suggestions so they don't get drowned out by the monotheism-tritheism rollercoaster: Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 18:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Beliefs

I'd like to distract you all from arguing about monotheism for a bit to suggest a little reorganization.

The two sections "Beliefs" and "Differences in Beliefs" should become one section simply called "Beliefs", with the following organization:

1. Jesus -- Covering "Messiah", "Jesus as God and Man", and "Crucifixion and Resurrection".
2. Salvation
3. The Trinity -- Covering "Monotheism" and "Holy Trinity", with subsections:
   1. The Creeds -- Covering "Nicene Creed", plus more on Chalcedon and the Athanasian. Maybe the bullet-point list should become the full text enhanced with wikilinks.
   2. Non-Trinitarians
4. Scripture -- Covering "Authority and different parts of the Bible" and "Other books held sacred" (both will need some cleanup and there should be much more on the Bible itself than things like the BoM or Eddy's works). With subsection:
   1. Interpretation
5. Last things -- Covering "Second Coming" and "The Afterlife".

This puts everything in a neater, more organized form, avoids stub-sections, and eliminates the awkwardly-titled section "Differences in Beliefs". A.J.A. 16:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Needed citations

Let's not forget there are still three statements with "citation needed" tags. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 18:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Afterlife section

• "There is, however, some debate on this point [purgatory] within Eastern Christianity.[citation needed]"
• "Some maintain that only the righteous will be resurrected. [citation needed]"

History and origins section:

• "The monastic life spread to many parts of the Christian empire during the 4th and 5th centuries, as many felt[citation needed] that the Christian moral and spiritual life was compromised by the change from a persecuted minority cult to an established majority religion, and sought to regain the purity of early faith by fleeing society."

Comments from the Good article review, including the Holy Spirit

Hi all, Unforunately I have not promoted this article because of problems with certain sections of the article.

The Beliefs section is of particular concern. Many of the subsections in it are single sentences. This is itself a stylistic concern, but I also worry some of the explainations are overly terse and do not present their subject in sufficient depth. The Second Coming subsection is especially terse and seems to side-step much of the detail mentioned in related articles such as Christian eschatology.

The Differences in beliefs section is good. The Worship and practices section could probably be stated in a more concise manner (especially the subsections). The History section is fine. The last paragraph of the Persecution section on persecution by Christians could probably be dropped. The Controversies section could probably be expanded slightly although by that I do not mean it should become a long list of controversies.

Overall, parts of the article feel they were designed by committee. A really good encyclopedia article should not just state facts but offer insight into its subject. Don't be afraid to leave out minor points if it allows you to offer better insight into the core subject of the article.

I hope this helps and please feel free to resubmit the article for nomination in the future. Cedars 16:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Several of the Beliefs subsections need expanded, such as Holy Spirit, which just says that Christians believe in the Holy Spirit without anything about who he is or what he does. —Aiden 18:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Wiki's Razor Again

Folks, we are wandering again. Can we set aside the section and talk the introduction alone?

Let me recap what we have:

1. A bunch of sources that say Christianity is monotheistic.
2. One source that says it is not.

For the first paragraph, that leaves us with:

1. Not mentioning the issue whatsoever in the intro, which is what the encyclopedias I've checked do.
2. Finding a way that isn't convoluted to say that Christians confess there is one God, but some non-Christians claim they do not. IMHO, This would be tough, if not impossible, to do in the intro. --CTSWyneken 18:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo quoted from, Encyclopedia Britannic above:

"According to Islamic doctrine the Christian dogma of a trinitarian god is a form of tritheism—of a three-god belief." - "monotheism."

There appears to be a typo in the quote. Is it saying that "it's tritheism-monotheism"?

Also, Britannica does not say that Christianity isn't monotheism, but attributes this assertion to "Islamic doctrine", which isn't a reliable - or verifiable - source on Christianity. We still have not one dead-on assertion from of the sort seen in multiple sources on the other side.Timothy Usher 19:18, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The quote reads: "According to Islamic doctrine the Christian dogma of a trinitarian god is a form of tritheism—of a three-god belief."

The title of the article is "Monotheism". My apologies for the confusion, the title and reference where not clearly seperated from the quote itself. Drogo Underburrow 19:26, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

No religion has interpreted monotheism in a more consequential and literal way than Islam. According to Islamic doctrine the Christian dogma of a trinitarian god is a form of tritheism—of a three-god belief. There is no issue upon which this religion is so intransigent as the one of monotheism. The profession of faith, the first of the so-called Five Pillars of Islam (the basic requirements for the faithful Muslim), states clearly and unambiguously that “there is no God but Allah,” and in accordance with this principle the religion knows no greater sin than shirk (“partnership”), the attribution of partners to Allah; that is to say, polytheism, or anything that may look like it—e.g., the notion of a divine trinity. The Qur'an declares: “Say: He, Allah, is one. Allah, the eternal. Neither has he begotten, nor is he begotten. And no one is his equal” (112). This profession of faith in Allah as the one god is encountered in a more popular form, for example, in the stories of The Thousand and One Nights: “There is no god except Allah alone, he has no companions, to him belongs the power and he is to be praised, he gives life and death and he is mighty over all things.” In only one respect has the uncompromising monotheism of Islam shown itself to be vulnerable; i.e., in the doctrine of the Qur'an as uncreated and coeval with Allah himself.

From the encyclopedia britannica online. I thought I would copy the entire section for those without access, I think this is ok. Drogo Underburrow 19:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

That's looking at it from an Islamic POV. But the definition of monotheism is relative to the belief of the person. So whoever believes there is one God is by definition monotheistic. In this case (an article on Christianity), Christians believe there is only God (even if they're not right about the Trinity) and are thus by definition monotheistic. —Aiden 19:44, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• I will post later this week (unless someone does it before then) why this "argument from definition" does not work --JimWae 20:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

This is the problem in a nutshell and I'm sorry if the Christian editors think I am just repeating myself in the face of their repeated refutations or trying to make a point. In actual fact I think we are talking past each other in a way that Archie will recognise. I understand completely what is being said about Christians believing in one God and therefore being monotheistic and I also understand Christians define God within the concept of the Trinity. The problem is that the Christian definition of monotheistic is different in that they define the single God they believe in as three-in-one with each one being whole (the 1+1+1=1 that Gio referred to). The Jewish and Islamic Gods are not defined this way - they are one single entity so there is no debate anywhere over whether they are monotheistic. However there is a debate particularly in the Islamic community about whether the Christian definition of monotheism is valid - a lot of them view it as tritheism as the quotes we have found show. The real question is how we reflect this world perspective in the article in a NPOV way. I appeal to the Christian editors to AGF - I really am not trying to attack their belief system as it really matters nothing to me if they believe in one God or 10. In fact if you are not part of a belief system that has demonized polythestic religions as pagan and therefore primitive/evil you don't see it as any sort of insult to be polytheistic nor do you acknowledge monotheism as somehow superior. Sophia 20:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, as I said earlier to JimWae, it's better to say 1*1*1=1, or ∞ & ∞ & ∞ = ∞. At the very least, it's better math. However, I do agree that we are talking past each other. Perhaps it's time to move on to other things? We have been talking in circles. Remember that a circle is endless…until you step outside. (No spheres, please, Homestarmy!) Monotheistic or not, it's getting monotonous. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 20:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Accusing a physicist of bad math! You never have taken me up on my offer to "prove" 2=1 (can't manage 3=1 I'm afraid). A break may be a good idea while we all think about how to tackle this. I would suggest in the meantime the article reflect the long term consensus with "monotheistic" in the opening line and it be left alone for a short while. Sophia 21:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

If I were a binitarian I'd take you up on your offer; but since I believe in the personality of the Holy Spirit, it seems we'd be One short. Also, you know how much I hate binary thinking ;) BTW, I told Jim62sch about the issues du jour. I asked him "Is Christianity monotheism or tritheism?" His answer: "Both." Check our talk pages for more. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 21:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but does merely being different than Judaism and Islam make a religion non-monotheistic? Homestarmy 23:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

If you believe a human is afflicted with multiple-personality disorder, does that mean you believe they are actually more than one human being? Does three personalities subsisting in a single human mean 1 + 1 + 1 = 1? No, rather: H = {p1, p2, p3}. Three positionally distinct and identifiable members in one set entity. The Trinity is similar, except that all of the "personalities" are manifest at the same time and are conscious of each other. » MonkeeSage « 01:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I have a bit of problem with describing God as mentally ill. Anyway, now we've applied arithmetic and set theory. Shall we try geometry as well? Not that it matters. I just think we should stick to English and not go all Humpty Dumpty over our words. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 04:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I also have a problem with calling God mentally ill. I don't think God can get off so easy for his massive crimes against humanity, and genocide on an insanity defense.Giovanni33 07:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it's a new take on the "lord liar or lunatic" argument. Sophia 09:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. But I think the illness aspect of MPD comes from the disassociation of the personalities from the central psyche, not the from fact of multiplicity; but in any case the Trinity is not MPD. I think the analogy is helpful though, to those who can't seem to grasp the concept of a distinction between "person" and "being", since no one says that a human with MPD is no longer an individual being. We could always use a geometric analogy. . .how about an equilateral triangle: three equal sides and three equal angles (60^o), but only one shape. ;) » MonkeeSage « 04:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, and that's why I linked the word "geometry" to the article on the Shield. The image is public domain, so I may as well include it (pardon the Latin):

File:Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-basic-thumb.png

Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 04:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

To use the analogy in a different way: there is one idea of shape, and another idea of attributes which belong to shapes. Muslims, Jews and Nontrinitarian Christians hold that there is only one shape whose attributes are "a point moving along a fixed direction and the reverse direction", and which they call "Line". Trinitarian Christians hold that there is only one shape also, but they say its attributes are "three points connected by lines", which they call "Triangle". Thus both are mono-shapists, but they disagree about the attributes of the one shape. Taking "Line" and building on it, doesn't produce more than one shape, only a single different shape. » MonkeeSage « 06:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Why? WHY???

Why is it that simple improvements get reverted over a wording quible? Why does everything have to be pulling teeth?

I'm putting the pictures back. Watch, they'll be taken out again. A.J.A. 21:10, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone reverting your basic improvements because they don't like a single section? [1] Poor you - you have my sympathy. Sophia 21:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

As opposed to reverting basic improvements because you thought they were too big [2]. A.J.A. 21:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Touché! Sophia 21:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Gosh, not getting one's way here? I am sypathetic to your position. Welcome to the big leagues. Storm Rider ^(talk) 05:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I did get my way. A.J.A. 05:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

However he's now on an involuntary community break for 24 hours [3]. Sophia 08:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

monotheism

I'm finding this conversation absolutely ridiculous.

As far as I can tell the definitions are being applied this.

1. Person X is a monotheist if they believe in one god.
2. Belief in one god is defined in any way that person X chooses it to be defined.
3. So effectively this is reduced to: Person X is a monotheist if they claim to believe in one god regardless of what they actually believe.

Several times I've brought up the example that under this definition Zeus worshippers and Hindus are monotheistic. No one is refuting it since after all it agrees with the OED. OK so I typed at command prompt on my mac say "I believe in one god" and wow my laptop now is a monotheist! And if you object to this tell me how it is any different than the arguments above? What is true of the definition being applied that isn't true of my laptop? I asked before and I didn't get an answer. If we are going to define monotheism this weakly then why mention it at all? Why is it not like "Christianity is a religion practiced exclusively by mammals"? jbolden1517^Talk 22:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

You can't tell the difference between a computer and a person? A.J.A. 22:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

This article is not about Person X, its about Christianity, there's more than one Christian out there i'd think. And belief in one God is belief in one God, its defined exactly like that, branches and off-shoots of that don't necessarily count as non-monotheistic :/. Besides, who said that Zeus worshippers aren't monotheistic? If they truly do believe in one God then they were monotheistic, but I was under the impression many Greeks believed in multiple ones. Homestarmy 23:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

No its not simply defined as belief in one god, because we have lots of good sources that essentially argue that they misunderstand what it means to believe in one god so badly that they are capable of thinking they believe in one god without actually doing so. This has been countered by saying they claim to believe in one god and that's all that's important. See above.

As for the Hellenists believed that all the gods were emanations of various pantheistic forces. But a good Hellenist could say that he believed that there was "really only one god" in some abstract sense which had no bearing on his practice of worship. And like I said if that's good enough then the term is meaningless (as defined in this article). jbolden1517^Talk 23:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The sources saying that they "mis-understand what it means" comes pretty much from the perspective of "It means believing in our definition of God only", hardly a unique trait. And if Hellenists actually say that they believe in one God, then they are monotheists. But if they don't, and are pretty clear that they believe in multiple gods, then they are polytheists. If there are semantical issues in Hellenism over this, then this should probably be specified somewhere else in their article. But going back to Christianity, this is the introductory sentence we're talking about, the definitions of words are not supposed to be complicated here, that's why there's a section in the article specifying exactly how Christianity is monotheistic and gives all the little details. Homestarmy 23:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll quote an old post That say Zeus, and Athena and Hera and Mars were all aspects of the underlying divinity. They were worshipped separately had separate rituals, had separate priesthoods had seperate moral codes had separate opinions... but underneath it all they were just aspects of the same divinity. Under your definition such a person is a monotheist and your answer seems to "yes they are". OK then

Why isn't my laptop a monotheist?

Why bother mentioning it at all since everyone qualifies anyway? jbolden1517^Talk 23:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Your laptop is not a monotheist because it doesn't have a mind. Invent artificial inteligence, and perhaps your laptop will become a monotheist. ;) Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 11:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Your laptop is not a monotheist because it has no ability to have a belief system, it doesn't have a brain, it can't very well believe in much of anything. A religion which believes in multiple deities is polytheistic, and I find it highly unlikely that in the large diversity of hellenistic philosophy that every single hellenist was monotheistic and believed that all the greek Gods were really one, i've never seen such a thing in any history book at all anyway, im just giving you the benefit of the doubt. Of course, now one may think "Aha, Homes has committed a fatal mistake, SURELY some Christians may think that the trinity are compleatly separate Gods? " Well by all means, find them then. Mormons aren't it apparently because we've got a source from them explaining how and why they aren't, and clearly indicating that they believe in one God and one God only in some manner. So I don't know where you'd start looking. Homestarmy 23:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

To quote some articles on wikipedia Monotheism#Comparison_to_polytheism_and_dualism, Soft polytheism, or getting weaker Henotheism, Monolatrism, Kathenotheism. jbolden1517^Talk 01:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Jbolden1517 said that a definition being applied was "Person X is a monotheist if they believe in one god." As I have said, again and again, the definition is the belief that there is one God, not belief in on God. "Believe in" carries a stronger meaning than "believe that there is", as it can (though doesn't have to) imply a certain amount of faith and trust, which goes far beyond the simple "believe in the existence of". The Nicene Creed has "I believe in" when the object of the belief is the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit. But for other Christian beliefs (Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, baptism, forgiveness of sins, resurrection of the dead, and life everlasting), it doens't use "in".

Oh well, if I go to bed now, will I find when I wake up, that the debate carried on throughout the night as to whether Christians truly worship one God in their practice? AnnH ♫ 00:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Pfft, I got definition switched? Ah well..... Homestarmy 00:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

To to expand upon Jbolden's comments, henotheism is the belief that a pantheon of gods exist, but one worships only one among them; this is found in Hinduism today (it sure sounds like ancient Roman and Greek religious constructs). Modalism is the strict belief in one god; it is nontrinitarian. There was no three distinct persons in the Trinity, just God the Father. It is a bit complicated after that. Some might remember Sabellian who proffered this concept strongly. Monotheism is obviously more complicated than we may have thought. I do believe that we are so ingrained to believe that all Christians are monotheists that it is difficult to conceive of any other term applying to our personal beliefs than monotheism. Regardless, I am ready to see this ended. Are Christians monotheists? Yes, most definitely. Do other labels apply? Yes, it just depends on the person and the church discussed. Storm Rider ^(talk) 01:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Most version of Hinduism are actually monotheistic, rather than henotheistic, as all of the deities (as well as the universe and humans) are seen as expressions of the ultimate reality ("all is Brahman "), which is absolutely one. The diversity we perceive in anything is illusory (see Maya (Hinduism), Maya (illusion)), and to overcome it is salvation and realization of the absolute unity of all. The Greek pantheon, as the name implies (πᾶν = "all", Θεὸν = "deity"), was henotheistic. Like Modalism, the Trinitarianism is also monotheistic, it just has all of the persons manifest at the same time, rather than a single person taking on different roles at different times. » MonkeeSage « 02:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

To answer jbolden's original comment: It is absolutely ridiculous, or at the very least absurdist. There seem to be two factions with two different operational definitions of "monotheism." To wit:

1. Belief that there is only one God.
2. Belief in the absolute unity of God, who is the only God.

Now, has been noted, the second faction is debating not only other editors, but with dictionaries both English and Greek. The first faction is using the English language, as described by various dictionaries. The second faction has gone Through the Looking Glass and joined up with Humpty Dumpty:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.

No one is disputing that the Trinity is unique among Abrahamic monotheisitic relgions. There is no reason not to say so in the article. Does that mean that Christianity is not monotheistic? No, because the word "monotheism" has a more general meaning, the first definition given above. There are other, perfectly good English words that have the second definition, which is after all a subset of the first definition. Of course, if the second faction wishes to join Alice on her adventures, they are free to do so; just don't confuse Humpty Dumpty language with English. Remember, too, that all the King's horses and all the King's men are waiting for you to fall. On this side of the glass, "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument," and monotheism ("mono" one + "theos" god) simply means "Belief that there is only one God." Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 03:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yep your side is defending greek polytheism / Zeus worship, Wicca and Hinduism as monotheistic and our side is twisting language? The OED misdefines many math terms and English language mathematicians have no problems saying that the OED describes common usage of words not technical meanings of words. jbolden1517^Talk 04:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

jbolden1517: Please list the various ontologically separate gods who are allegedly worshipped by Christians. » MonkeeSage « 04:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I myself never said anything about the Greek pantheon or Hinduism. I don't think anybody said anything about Wicca until jbolden brought it up. It seems that different groups of Wiccans are either ditheist, monotheist or polytheist by their own profession: either two gods (Gaea and the horned god), one god (Dryghten) or many gods (the Celtic pantheon). "They may also be animists, pantheists, or indeed anywhere within the broad spectrum of Neopagan forms of worship." So, it depends on which Wiccans you are talking about.

Again, such professions are the only aspect of any belief that's empirically testable. You can't read my mind and say that my concept of God is really three gods, or whatever). Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 04:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. This is part of why sociologists of religion focus on the practice of religion -- of which the recitation of creeds is only one tiny part. Religion has vast social and experiential importance, but the details of a creed are chiefly of interest to theologians. (Consider how difficult it would be to explain to today's Christians the homoousion/homoiousion controversy of antiquity -- while issues of practice, such as whether to use rock music in services, or whether women may be ordained, are much more apt to excite people's interest.)

This isn't to say that the intricacies of religious belief are unimportant -- merely that because they are more subjective and more esoteric, they are always going to give rise to unsettleable controversies such as this one. By subjective I mean that Hasan and Wei-hua can always bicker about whether Sebastian and Mary believe x or y, and insist that Sebastian and Mary are wrong in their statements about what they believe. (As we have seen, all manner of people seem to be willing to tell Christians that they are wrong about what they claim that they, as Christians, believe.) By esoteric I mean that to most adherents, points of doctrine are usually something to memorize and recite rather than something to understand in great depth and historicity. People are taught, "We are good because we believe in a Trinity" or "We are good because we don't believe in the Trinity", and they are taught to recite prayers in one form or another; but in practice these are chiefly formulas.

So it seems to me that it is much more favorable to Wikipedia's purpose to let believers' claims of what they believe stand ... and to spend our time and energy working out good explanations of what believers do; that is, what is entailed in religious practice. --FOo 05:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Finally, some sanity. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 05:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and that is exactly what editors like myself want: "let believers claims of what they believe stand." No one knows what they believe. We only know what they say they believe. So, we can only say the fact: they claim to be monothesistic. That is factual. Saying they are in fact monotheistic is making the further claim that they are correct about their claims. That is not allowed (and we don't know that---its a POV). To do that would be to take sides and say all others who disagre are wrong. Again, not allowed. So, indeed, let believers' claims of what they believe stand as claims--not declared truth.Giovanni33 07:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

As Jews, Samaritans, Muslims, Bahaists, and Zoroastrians also claim to be monotheistic. Any monotheistic religion is defined by the claim to be monotheistic. By your standard, there are no monotheists, only those who claim to be. By the very same standard, there are no atheists, only those who claim to be. POV works both ways. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 08:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and if atheist said they are without a belief in God (a-theisit), but then worshiped some supernatural beings that look and act just like people would think of as a God, then I'm sure others would look at this and say, "no, they are still theists, since they worship these other god-like creatures while denying that they are gods, hence they are a form of theism not atheism." If such a POV existed about this hypothetical "atheist" groupd, would it be correct for Wikipedia to take sides and label this group as "Athesist," or simply report that adherents claim not to hold belief in God? I say the latter.Giovanni33 08:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Supernatural beings like the Invisible Pink Unicorn? Sure, they say it's a joke, but maybe they secretly believe? Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 11:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

According to Islam, as the article in Encyclopedia Britannica attests, Christians believe in three gods. Therefore, whether Christianity is monotheistic or not, is disputed. In matters that are disputed, Wikipedia articles cannot pick who is right. Therefore, it is wrong to state as a fact that Christians believe in one God. What they believe is a matter of who you ask, and should be presented as such in the article. Monotheism is indeed defined by the dictionary as believing in one God; whether Christians do believe this is disputed, with the core tenet of Islam saying that they do not believe this. Drogo Underburrow 07:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

And I have cited other sources that say that other Muslims believe that Christians worship one divided god (not three gods), and mistakenly associate Jesus with one of the divisions. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 08:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo, this statment can only support "some Muslims believe" - and even so it'd be better off more directly sourced. Unspecified Muslims are not reliable sources for Christianity.

We've still yet to see a reputable scholarly source, Christian, Muslim or otherwise, flatly state that Christianity is not monotheistic, which is what is needed to justify a hedge.Timothy Usher 07:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Not true. I provided a scholarly source that articulated an argument that exists which purports Christianity as a form of polytheism akin to other religions labeled as such. There is a grey area in what kind of believes deserve the label "monothesism," so in the case of disagreement we can not takes sides but only characterize the claim as a claim, which means providing attribution.Giovanni33 07:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Earlier, you also confused polytheism with a form of exclusive monotheism: that while there is only one God, there also exist lesser spiritual beings (angels, demons, daevas, djinn, &c) which are expressly not gods. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 08:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

But they are not human, either. So what are they? If they are supernatural creatures who can preform miracles, then why are they not demi-gods? A rose is still a rose by any other name, no? It smells and looks the same. Giovanni33 08:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Category error. A rose is a rose but a rose is not a tulip. You can't say that all supernatural creatures are gods, any more than you can say all natural creatures are humans. My pet cat is not a human being, even though that cat is indeed a natural creatue. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 11:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, as I indicated last night before I went to bed, I knew that when I got up, I'd find that people had shifted from the dictionary definition "the belief that there is one God" to something like "the worship of one God" or "the belief in one God", and would have completely ignored the distinction.

Let's look at it this way — many pro-life people say that pro-choice people "know deep down" that abortion is the murder of a baby. It would be very easy to find a published source for that. Would the people in favour of the "supposedly, so-called, self-styled monotheistic" wording find it appropriate to go to the pro-choice and abortion debate articles and mess around with the wording on what pro-choice people "believe"? I think not. AnnH ♫ 07:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The simple solution would the be same as is required here. We would report only what they claimed to believe. We would state it as a belief they held. That would be clear. We would not state it as a fact that they were infact "pro-life' or the other labels, "pro-birth" ,"anti-choice," "anti-women reproductive freedom," etc. There are many POV's that come with a label. We can not choose the label that is correct when there is disagreement over it applicability. What we can do is report who claims what. Christians claim adherence to a doctrine of monothesism, and hence assert belief in one true God. This is pefectly ok to state as a fact as it does not take sides but reports what they claim. That they claim it is a fact we can establish. We can never establish what people think and interpret their beliefs in only one way out of many ways and state that one way (what they claim) as the correct way (taking sides by reporting their stance as a fact--not as a stance they claim).

Your exmaple of using words like "supposedly, so-called, self-sytled" is not what anyone is proposing (straw man fallacy). Those words are "weasle words" which appear to be netural but really take a side. But the other exteme is taking a side saying that their claims is true and a matter of fact (when others disagree) Both extreme are not allowed under the NPOV guidelines.Giovanni33 07:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

How do I know that you really believe that "Both extreme [sic] are not allowed under the NPOV guidelines?" I can only say that you claim to believe it. Perhaps you really agree with Ann, but only believe that you disagree. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 08:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

You don't know for certain however my claim that I made has a non-stated premise (that I claim this belief), as its clear that its my POV. Infact, that I write it here is evidence that I alone claim it (as I sign it with my name). Note I am not making a statement about someone else's belief as a statmetn of fact. You are correct to say, "Gio claims that this is not allowed under the NPOV guildelines." Yes, I do. But, because I claim it does not make it a fact. Even if you did not say, "Gio claims..." it would still be clear that this is only a claim, a POV since you are talking about Gio's belief. When we say "Chirstianity is monotheisitc" we are making the claim in the article of fact, of a truth of the POV, since in this way we are reporting it as an objective fact of the religion. This is different than quoting a Christian claiming the fact. Giovanni33 08:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Which is beside the point. Monotheism is the belief or doctrine that there is only one God. Belief aside, Christianity is monotheistic by doctrine. That is an objective fact of the religion: just look at the doctrine. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 08:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Its not besides the point, its part of the point. You can not say "beliefs aside," since that is part of the definition: what are the beliefs of Christianity? According to some POV's they do believe in more than one god since they view and characterize Christian belief as belief in more than one God. Is their POV wrong? That does not matter, since its a POV. There is no wrong or right in these matters of belief, they are just different interpretations based on semantics and how one understands the body of beliefs that is Christianity. How Christians view of themselves is notewothy and should be central, but not the last word. Nor, more importantly what they say should not be stated as necessarily the truth. Its just their POV, and therefore should be reported as their POV. Otherwise we are taking sides.Giovanni33 08:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The definition is "belief or doctrine," not "belief and doctrine." With "or" you need only one, not both. Anyway, a doctrine is simply a statement of belief. Christian doctrine is that there is only one God, ergo Christianity is monotheistic. This is true regardless of your POV, my POV, or Papa Smurf's POV about that doctrine: the doctrine exists, objectively. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 09:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

AnnH, ask: but would we be likely to find any reputable scholarly source - say, an acknowledged expert on the abortion debate - flatly stating that pro-choicers know "deep down" etc.?Timothy Usher 07:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Are we reading minds again? Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 08:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

An acknowledged expert on the abortion debate? If by that, you mean a scholar who studies the debate but isn't actively involved, then no. You'd get many pro-life people, including very prominent ones, saying it — people like Fr Frank Pavone. But with regard to the Christians worship many Gods argument, you won't get a scholarly source that says that. You'll get some Moslems (who, like pro-lifers, have their own agenda) saying it. And Moslems are no more experts on what Christians believe than Fr Pavone is on what pro-choicers believe. But in any case, as I have said again and again, the question is not about how Christians are perceived to worship God. The question is whether or not Christians believe that there is one God. Every time I bring this up, someone just goes back to the old argument about Christians worshipping the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and how that kind of worship couldn't be monotheistic, and completely ignores the question of whether or not Christians believe that there is one God. At most, we have a few examples of Moslems denying that the Trinity could be One God. We don't have any sourced examples of people denying that Christians believe that there is one God. And it seems that the only people who want to deny that they belive that are two editors on this page who say that we can't know what they really believe. It's highly ironic that those same two editors inserted into the Hitler article that Hitler "received the sacraments devoutly" as a child, and that as an adult he "felt he was still a Catholic even if he didn't go to Mass." So we can know the inner mind and disposition of Adolf Hitler, but we can't know whether or not Christians actually believe in seventeen and a half gods while pretending to believe in one? AnnH ♫ 08:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Doctrine and belief

Let's look at the Oxford definition again:

Monotheism — The doctrine or belief that there is only one God (as opposed to many, as in polytheism)

We can debate the nature of belief until protons decay and never make any progress on the article, since we cannot read minds. But look at the other side of the definition: is it Christian doctrine that there is only one God? Absolutely. That, by definition, is monotheism. Chrisitianity teaches the doctrine that there is only one God. Therefore, Christianity is a form of monotheism. Therefore, Christianity is monotheistic.

If anyone doubts this statement, I can easily show you the doctrine. Remember, too, that the definition is "doctrine or belief," not "doctrine and belief." The long debates over the nature of belief are essentially meaningless. Christianity is monotheism by doctrine. That is sufficient.Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 08:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

True, the dictionary defines it as, "The doctrine or belief that there is only one God." If it was only the doctrine that there is one God, then the question would be easy to answer, however the word means, also, --Giovanni33

"It's "doctrine or belief," not "doctrine, also belief." This is where your argument breaks down. Doctrine alone satisfies "doctrine or belief." Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 10:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

an objective belief in only one God. --Giovanni33

"Objective belief" is an oxymoron. Belief is subjective. What is objective is that the doctrine exists, the doctrine is taught by Christianity, and therefore Christianity is monotheistic. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 10:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The question, therefore is a question of describing and interpreting what Christians believe in totality, based on what they say they believe. This must include not only what Christians say about the issue, but others, too. Do all outside observers agree that its an accurate description of the beleifs? Does anyone else look at these self-professed believes in their totality, as a body of religious beliefs, and conclude that depite what Christians say, they do in practice worship and believe in more than one supernatural entity, and hence are really a form of polytheisism (polytheism in denial)? In that case its a matter of being monotheisitic in name only---or just a matter of POV/interpretation. It is is just what they claim, therefore, the language should be, "regarded by...', or "according to...". When many people look at the many God-like creatures that Christians worship, its clear there are more than one god, however one tries to tie them all together in one. Its a matter of interpretation, of POV. I agree its regarded by most as monotheistic, and self-defined as such, but I do acknowledge is not a universal POV, and other POV's assert that its a form of polytheism, as the source I gave earlier in the Oxford Journal of Theology stated. The real point is: Is there another POV that interprets the self-professed beliefs of the religion in a way that allows them to conclude that its not monotheisitc? The answer is yes. Therefore, we should not take sides but have language to reflect that its not a fact but a POV, hence: "widely regarded," "self-defined," "held to be by adherents," etc There are many wordings. Something as simple as "Christians hold to the doctrine of monothesism," an assertion of belief in one god." Giovanni33 08:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Which is all meaningless because you've confused "or" with "also." Christians hold to the doctrine of monotheism, ergo Christians are monotheistic. The definition is "doctrine or belief," not "doctrine, also belief."Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 10:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

According to Islamic doctrine the Christian dogma of a trinitarian god is a form of tritheism—of a three-god belief. - the Encyclopedia Britannica

The EB is a reputable, scholarly source. If this is not accepted as a case of a source stating that according to Muslim belief Christianity is not monotheistic, then I'm afraid that people simply refuse to see what they do not want to see. It is quite clear that there is a religious dispute here, and that stating the Christian version, that Christianity IS monotheistic, (as opposed to the Muslim version, that Christianity is tritheistic) as fact is unacceptable on Wikipedia, not even in an article about Christianity. There is a dispute here, and its disgraceful how editors deny that anything is being disputed, and that therefore the article is not required to adhere to NPOV and state: Christians assert that Christianity is monotheistic. Drogo Underburrow 08:30, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

All of which means nothing more than that Christianity is not Islam. Also, Christian doctrine is what makes Christianity monothestic, just as Islamic doctrine is what makes Islam monothestic. This is true regardless of what Christians or Muslims or anyone else assert. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 10:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

And pro-choice people assert that pro-choice people believe that abortion should be legal. And feminists assert that feminists believe that women should be allowed to vote. But — Hitler "felt he was still a Catholic."[4] Drogo, since you declined to explain on the Hitler talk page how stating as a fact what Hitler believed could be justified, perhaps you might like to explain here why it's okay to state as a fact what Hitler believed but "disgraceful" to state what Christians believe? AnnH ♫ 08:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Its perfectly fine to report what people believe, which can be stated as a fact--as long as its a claim of their belief that is stated as a fact. Thus, we report what Hitler claimed, (and that is the language that is used). But by the same token we must attribute the lable of "monothesism" to those who claim it and not state that belief as a fact that is true, objective, and correct. This is the big difference. To simply say "Christianity is monotheistic" is the latter, to state "Christianity is considers itself monotheistic" is the former.Giovanni33 09:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not Christianity claming that it is monotheistic; rather, it is Christianity claiming that there is only one God. Christianity is monotheistic by definition because it is a Christian doctrine that there is only one God. This is true, objective, and correct regardless of how anyone considers Christianity. Remember, the definition is not "also," the definition is "or." Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 10:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

As I'm sure you're aware, Giovanni, Drogo did not insert that Hitler stated he was still a Catholic, or that a particular writer says that Hitler felt he was still a Catholic. He inserted, as a fact without qualification, that Hitler "felt" he was still a Catholic. Check the diff again. He even inserted that Hitler "maintained to the end of his life that he was a Catholic", and ignored my request for an example of Hitler maintaining that towards the end of his life. And what about your completely unsourced, POV, original-research insertion of "Hitler received the sacraments devoutly" as a child? How can you justify that while protesting about the simple fact that since Christianity teaches that there is one God, it is by definition monotheistic? (By the way, people are still twisting the "belief that there is one God" definition into "belief in one God".) Of course, Hitler arguments would be a bit off topic here, if they didn't show that the same editors will insist on policy (their interpretation of it) when they it serves their purpose and ignore it when it doesn't. AnnH ♫ 09:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Or, all this means is that we are all only human and prone to make errors. We also all have our own bias. I think we should assume good faith and not interpret this simply as editors conciously using policy only when it serves their POV. In anycase, this making a point is not helpful here but distracts from the article.Giovanni33 09:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

So assume good faith. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 10:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

AnnH, what you say is not true, but I'm not going to discuss what should be discussed on the Hitler talk page here, nor am I going to reply to your ad hominem arguments. Muslims believe, according to the EB that Christianity is not monotheistic, but tritheistic, therefore it is not a fact that Christianity is monotheistic, but a matter under dispute. Therefore this article is guilty of taking a matter under dispute and asserting it as fact when it says "Christianity is a monotheistic religion...." Drogo Underburrow 09:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you say it should be discussed at the Hitler talk page. My understanding was that you refused. AnnH ♫ 10:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo: "The EB is a reputable, scholarly source. If this is not accepted as a case of a source stating that according to Muslim belief Christianity is not monotheistic, then I'm afraid that people simply refuse to see what they do not want to see." - yes, it is a reputable source. But what does it say? It says Muslims believe so-and-so. So (although I am quite certain this is a misrepresentation of the most learned Muslim belief) it can be cited as a source for Muslim belief, as in the controversies section.

What it doesn't say is that Christianity isn't monotheistic. It says that a generic third party doesn't believe it to be. And what you need to meet WP:V isn't a source that says someone else believes it's not - as that doesn't establish that second-hand someone as a reliable source, even when the reporting source (EB) is - but a reputable source that says so itself. Compare the pro sources - they don't say, so-and-so believes Christianity to be monotheistic, but rather, on their own authority that it is monotheistic.Timothy Usher 10:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll say again that the definition of monotheism is "The doctrine or belief that there is only one God (as opposed to many, as in polytheism)." Notice it's "doctrine or belief," not "doctrine, also belief" as Giovanni took it. The word "also" never appears in the definition.

There are two kinds of "or." Exclusive or is satistified by either of the following:

• Doctine, not belief
• Belief, not doctrine

Inclusive or is satisified by any of the following:

• Doctrine, not belief
• Belief, not doctrine
• Both doctrine and belief.

It can be the last one, but it doesn't have to be. By either definition, doctrine is enough to satisfy "doctrine or belief." What makes any religion monothestic—whether that religion is Judaism, Samaritanism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai, Zoroastrianism or any other—is the doctrine that there is only one God. We cannot read beliefs, which exist in the mind. We can read doctrines. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 10:39, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

How about this for those who want to qualify the statement that Christianity is monotheistic. Let's also qualify the same phrase in Islam, on these grounds: many Christians claim that Islam worships the wrong God (very easy to document) and that there is only one true God, the Trinity (also very easy to document) — that means Islam is atheistic; only one God, they don't believe in that God, therefore they are atheistic. Short of qualifying the phrase in that article based on Christian belief, I remain adamantly against qualifying the expression here based on the alleged Muslim belief. » MonkeeSage « 11:11, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

We're digressing here (or we were, before edit conflict)

Let's get back to Giovanni's point. I have a few questions for him:

• As I mentioned above, the article on Islam describes the religion, without qualification, in the introduction as monotheistic. Do you believe that this phrasing should be changed?
• If no, and if, as I take it from what you have already written, your objection is on the basis that "some people" dispute Christianity's description as monotheistic, what/where is that source (and no, I'm not paying attention to Brittanica here, since I believe that's an indadequate, secondary attribution)? Going on from this, how should this source be used in reformulating the introduction?
• Finally, how then do we resolve the dichotomy that we now put an introductory hedge into the article on Christianity but not on e.g. Sikhism? Slac speak up! 10:33, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

All good points. As I've been saying, religions are defined by their doctrines. The doctrine that there is only one God is enough to define any religion as monotheistic, by definition. Despite Giovanni's gambit, the word "also" does not appear in the definition, which is "doctrine or belief." We've been led into a rhetorical trap by debating beliefs, which we cannot verify without telepathy. We can, however, easily read a doctrine that has been printed in English.

Re:Islam and Sikhism. Careful. I made much the same point earlier, only I referred to Zoroastrianism rather than Sikhism. Some people misunderstood this as an invitation to attack Zoroastrianism. Why the hedge on Christianity and not those other religions? It's simply an asymmetric controversy, made even more asymmetric by invoking hypothetical Muslims. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 10:51, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

*Whistle* Everybody out ot the Pool!

Folks, all of this is beside the point. What do the sources say?

Second, this is a passionate discussion because, for Christians, monotheism is a central doctrine, upom which Christians base much of their doctrine. If you question that, you are challenging their faith. Consider how Muslims would feel if the critique of some Christians that Sufis are panthesist or that the observation that the Angel of the Lord speaks as if he were God in Exodus 3 makes them bitheists.

I'm not sure why this is a big deal for non-Christians, however, but it must be for some reason, or we would not have this debate. I don't understand why they care what Christians believe.

So, back to what we have. We have several sources that point blank call Christianity monotheistic, one that says some Muslims question this. How do we do this, practically speaking? Can we start with new proposals to these facts on the ground? --CTSWyneken 11:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Say that some Muslims question this, cite it and put it into the Christianity#Controversies section. I've already done this myself. We can also say something in the article about how the Christian, and especially Trinitarian Christian, concept of God differs from that of other monotheistic and Abrahamic religions. I doubt anyone disagrees with this. The real dispute is whether or not to refer to Christianity as monotheistic in the intro. I see no reason not to, especially since Christianity meets the dictionary definition of monotheism: its doctrine is that there is only one God. Obviously, others disagree. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 12:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

We have two sides. Therefore, its very clear that we use NPOV language to describe that Christians think Christianity is monotheistic while Muslims think its tritheistic. There's no need to state in the introduction that Christianity is monotheistic, so simply leave that word out. In the body of the article, describe the doctrine of the Trinity and how Christians believe that makes their religion monotheistic, and how Muslims believe that Christians profess monotheism but actually believe in three gods. It is really simple. Drogo Underburrow 12:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Except that not all Muslims think that it's tritheistic. Some Muslims would say (as I have cited) that "Tritheism" is a Christian or secular misunderstanding of Muslims' real objection: that God is not divided and that Jesus is not God. Has anybody else even read A Concise Reply to Christianity? Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 12:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Drogo, we have two sides: the Oxford English Dictionary side, which says that monotheism is the belief or doctrine that there is one God (regardless of how that belief is shown by the form of worship) and the Humpty Dumpty side, which says that monotheism can mean whatever we want it to mean. Personally, I'd rather go for the dictionary definition. AnnH ♫ 12:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If we take monotheism out of the intro here, be sure we remove it in Islam as well, so we don't appear to favor any group. But since it is a defining doctrine of both systems, it should probably be in the intro to both. » MonkeeSage « 13:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I am really appalled at the rhetoric being used here. I will repeat for those who may not see it in the mass of verbiage on this page:

According to Islamic doctrine the Christian dogma of a trinitarian god is a form of tritheism—of a three-god belief. - from the Encyclopedia Britannica

So AnnH, you called Islamic doctrine "the Humpty-Dumpty" side? You called the Encyclopedia Britannica "the Humpty-Dumpty" side? How interesting.

Now, on the issue of having the word "monotheism" in the intro, there is no special reason to have it there. The Encyclopedia Britannica does not have the word in the intro to its article. Here is the intro from the EB article:

Christianity - major religion, stemming from the life, teachings, and death of Jesus of Nazareth (the Christ, or the Anointed One of God) in the 1st century AD. It has become the largest of the world's religions. Geographically the most widely diffused of all faiths, it has a constituency of some 2 billion believers. Its largest groups are the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the Protestant churches; in addition to these churches there are several independent churches of Eastern Christianity as well as numerous sects throughout the world. See also Eastern Orthodoxy; Roman Catholicism; and Protestantism.

This article first considers the nature and development of the Christian religion, its ideas, and its institutions. This is followed by an examination of several intellectual manifestations of Christianity. Finally, the position of Christianity in the world, the relations among its divisions and denominations, its missionary outreach to other peoples, and its relations with other world religions are discussed. For supporting material on various topics, see biblical literature; doctrine and dogma; Jesus Christ; sacred; worship; prayer; creed; sacrament; religious dress; monasticism; and priesthood.

No one is saying that all Muslims believe anything. But we have an authoritative source that says what Muslim doctrine is; and it is very clear that we are discussing a central doctrine of that religion. We can either change the intro to make it clear who is speaking, or we can eliminate the word "monotheism" from the intro. But it is a NPOV violation to state the Christian version of things as a fact in the intro. Drogo Underburrow 13:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo, I don't know if you are just not following the discussion or you don't understand: Stating Christianity is monotheistic is not establishing ANYTHING as fact except the belief of Christians. The definition of monotheism is simply the dogma or belief that there exists one God. Saying "Christianity is monotheistic" simply states "Christians believe there is one God." This is not even disputable (see the monotheism section.) Now, if Christians BELIEVE there is one God, they are by definition monotheistic. This does not establish anything as fact. It doesn't attempt to prove there is a God nor does it attempt to prove that the Trinity is even logically sound. No, it just states that Christians believe there exists one God. We are simply describing a belief, just like we describe the Christian belief in Jesus, nothing more. —Aiden 13:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Aiden, you are the one that isn't following the discussion, not I. It is Muslim doctrine, according to the EB, that Christians believe in three gods, not one; hence the statement "Christianity is monotheistic" is being challenged, and cannot be stated as fact. It is being disputed what Christians believe. Drogo Underburrow 14:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

And if I may add, this is not the Encyclopedia Brittanica, and im fairly certain the Muslim objection is in the article already anyway. Does the EB even say which part of "Islamic doctrine" specifically states tritheism anyway? Because there's more than one part, some Muslims follow only the Qu'ran, some follow both it and the Hadiths, there must be some more specific information. Homestarmy 14:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo, again, according to the definition of monotheism: all it takes to be monotheist is for someone to believe there exists one God. Please refer to ANY Christian statement of faith or any Christian for that matter. All will tell you there is one God. Now, of course Islam has a differing opinion over the Trinity, but that has no bearing on what Christians believe (this article is after all about Christians). And since Christians believe they serve one God, or one God exists at all, they are monotheistic. What an outsider believes about their belief has no bearing on the definition. I don't see why you're still repeating the same argument that has been disproven by more dictionaries than I can shake a stick at. —Aiden 14:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

All this is well and good. But let's move to the exit. RUN! HIDE! A V-V-VOTE PROPOSAL! --CTSWyneken 14:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Vote on How to Describe the Monontheism in Christianity Issue

How we mention that Christianity is a monotheistic religion in paragraph One?

Not at all

1. Not at all If we do, we have to mention both sides. This would be awkward to do. --CTSWyneken 14:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
2. Agree per CTSWyneken and other arguments mentioned earlier on this talk page. AvB ÷ talk 15:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
3. CTS is so right. Avoid any problems in the intro line and address in the monotheism section. Sophia 15:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, according to dictionary

1. —Aiden 14:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, with qualification

This "poll" is inherantly biased, stating that the dictionary agrees with one of the choices. It doesn't, but stating that it does makes the poll results invalid. Furthermore, this issue involves NPOV, which is not subject to voting. Editors cannot vote that an article violate NPOV. Drogo Underburrow 15:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd like a comment as well, personally, I like the dictionary definition standard like we have now, but I am not too opposed to something like KV's old suggestion, or even the one I tried (Though it was more a bit of taking brutal advantage of the wide array of references than anything), which did have qualification. There should be an even/or thing for a good poll i'd think. Homestarmy 16:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Quick recap (i.e. I'm Lazy)

Can somebody fill me in briefly what the main dispute is here? From what I can see it is over the inclusion of monotheism in the lead, right? With some saying that since some people say it isn't monotheism, it shouldn't be included, right? As of this timestamp, what is wrong with the issue? It seems like it is handled appropriately. Thanks. --You Know Who ^{(Dark Mark)} 14:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's pretty much it. Several editors began removing the word 'monotheist' from the intro or changing the sentence to 'Christianity is a religion, considered monotheist by its followers..." Several other editors brought in dictionary references, all of which defined monotheism as The dogma or belief that there is one God and thus had a problem with saying basically "Christianity is a religion, believed to believe that there is one God by its followers". In relation to Christian dogma, nearly all statements of faith state belief in one God. Some editors claimed that Muslims (although I don't believe anyone provided a source) claim Christian belief in Trinitarianism amounts to tritheism (and thus isn't monotheism.) But those who followed the dictionary simply stated outside opinions have no bearing on the dogma or belief of Christians, and since they think they serve one God (even if they're not right), that belief alone qualifies them as monotheists, since the definition is after all just a belief that there is one God. Thus, the definition really doesn't require anyone to prove anything, nor does it convey anything as fact. It simply states the belief of Christians, nothing more. And that's where we are: round and round in circles. —Aiden 14:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I provided a source that showed that Muslim doctrine contests the claim that Christians believe in one God. Monotheism is the belief in one God. Christians say they are monotheistic. Muslims say that they are not. Christians do not believe in one god, but believe in three is the Muslim claim. Outside opinion does matter, as they are saying that Christians do not believe as they claim to. It doesn't matter who is right in this dispute. NPOV says that in issues like this, the article stays neutral. Right now the article is not neutral, it says that the Christians are right and the Muslims are wrong, by stating as a fact, that Christianity is monotheistic. Drogo Underburrow 14:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

So you're telling me that if I am a Christian and I believe there exists one God, a Muslim can tell me, "No you don't. You believe there are three" and I now have to qualify my belief according to what a Muslim says about... my belief? Strange. According to dictionaries, whatever I believe is what constitutes whether I am monotheistic or not. I don't see anything in there about how my views are perceived by others. Drogo, do you deny that Christians believe they serve one God? —Aiden 14:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

You say you believe in one God. Muslim doctrine says you don't. You say you are monotheistic. Muslim doctrine says you are tritheistic. It is not true that the dictionary proves you believe in one god. The dictionary has no idea what you believe. You say you believe in one God, and Muslim doctrine says that you don't. I don't deny that Christians believe they serve one God; but Muslim doctrine says that Christians do not believe in one God. If you insist on saying that Christianity is monotheistic, when Muslim doctrine explicitly says it is tritheistic, then you are violating NPOV. Drogo Underburrow 15:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey! No campaigning within 20 meters of the polls! ;-) --CTSWyneken 14:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo, I'm telling you now, I believe there is one God. You are seriously contending that someone else can tell me what I believe? —Aiden 15:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Bingo! "I don't deny that Christians believe they serve one God." There you said it. Now please crossreference this with the definition of monotheistic (Dogma or believe that there is one God) and explain how you reconcile the previous sentence and your insistence that Christians are monotheistic only according to themselves. "According to me, I believe I serve one God, but according to Muslims, I believe I serve three." You are making a lot of sense. —Aiden 15:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Your poll is biased, CTS. It begs the question, saying "according to the dictionary"; Besides, its not 'according to the dictionary'. The dictionary does not prove what Christians believe. The dictionary states that monotheism is the belief in one God. Muslims say that means them, and not Christians, who believe in three gods. Aiden, I said I didn't deny it. Muslims do. They say you believe in three gods, and you can claim all you want that you believe in one god, and they say you don't. Drogo Underburrow 15:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo, the way I see it is thus: If I were to find some source by some fundamentalist Christians that said Muslims believe their god was fake and Muhammad was a fire-breathing lizard, we should go to that article and remove any reference to Allah, change the Muhammad article to include this belief, and remove anything else that contradicts what this source said? Monotheism is the belief in one god. Christians believe in one god. They believe in a three-in-one god, the Trinity. Just because some Muslim source you provided (did you?) doesn't understand the full concept and mystery of the Trinity (and who can fully?) doesn't mean that Christians are not monotheistic. We don't label Opus Dei a cult, just because Dan Brown says it is. We may include that "critics hold that...", but that doesn't mean we remove the label of "international prelature" just because one author states something. We don't write that the Nation of Israel is the spawn of Satan just because some extremist Muslims believe that. Our job around here is to give the best explanation of and description of any particular topic. The best description we have of Christianity is that since they unceasingly believe in one god (monotheism), they are monotheists. But it would only be right and NPOV to, later in the article, include the fact that some criticize this belief by stating that "the belief in the trinity means they aren't..." (which this article does). As I can see it, this article handles the matter very well. --You Know Who ^{(Dark Mark)} 15:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Which is already included in the controversies section, mind you. —Aiden 15:25, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Lord Voldemort writes, "Christians believe in one god." No, they don't, says Muslim doctrine. That is the issue. Will the article say this as a fact? It can't, as that would be saying that Christians are right on this issue. It doesn't matter if Muslims misunderstand. It doesn't matter if they are wrong. They dispute this fact, and therefore its not a fact, for Wikipedia purposes. That is what NPOV says. Drogo Underburrow 15:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo, I don't doubt that Muslims think Christians serve three Gods. But do they doubt that Christians believe they serve one? No. And according to every dictionary we've seen, all it takes to be monotheistic is to believe there is one God. Heck, Muslims could be right! Christians could really serve three Gods! That doesn't matter. If Christians (personally and dogmatically) believe there is only one God, that's all it takes to qualify them as monotheists. Some Christians consider Islam a pagan religion, does that mean we have to qualify the word 'monotheist' in the Islam article? No. Why? Because Muslims believe they serve one God. Now, we can of course say that in the controversies section, but by definition Muslims are monotheist because of what they believe about God and themselves. —Aiden 15:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I used to believe as you do. But then I saw that Muslims say that Christianity is not monotheistic. So, even if I believe that it is, because it fits the dictionary definition, that doesn't matter. Muslims say its not monotheistic. Maybe Muslims don't know what the dictionary says. It doesn't matter. They say its not monotheistic, and that is all that counts. Its not up to us to decide that the Muslim view is unreasonable or wrong, or misguided or misinformed. Drogo Underburrow 15:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

No, Drogo, you have a flawed interpretation of WP:NPOV. It doesn't really matter what an outside source says. Do we disregard it totally, of course not. But the fact remains, we don't use outside opinion to influence our best description of a topic. Like I said before, Just because some Muslim source you provided doesn't understand the full concept and mystery of the Trinity doesn't mean that Christians are not monotheistic. We don't insert that God hates fags just because Jim Phelps says God does. "But guys, Jim Phelps said so!" It doesn't really matter. We don't just disregard the beliefs of millions to suit one source (which, if you could provide again would be very helpful). Some Fundamentalists believe that Islam is Satan worship. So do we now remove reference to Allah from the Muslim article? No. We don't disregard the beliefs of millions to suit a fringe belief. You must understand this. --You Know Who ^{(Dark Mark)} 15:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Just a comment as I've seen this pop up a few times here: It's absolutely possible for someone to understand the concept and "mystery" of the Trinity and yet disagree 100% with very solid, real, justifiable reasons. Disagreement is not equivalent to just 'not understanding', as if in the moment someone understands they will agree. --Oscillate 15:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

(edit clash 3 times!)Wikipedia can state a POV as long as it's attributed to someone. Quotes say Christianity is monotheistic and other quotes say Musilims do not accept this. All anyone has been saying is that we must say Christians think they are monotheistic rather than write the article as if Wikipedia says this. Simple as that. Sophia 15:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

But AGAIN, monotheism is a BELIEF, not a FACT. Saying "Christians believe they are monotheistic" is exactly like saying "Christians believe that they believe that there is one God." That makes absolutely no sense. —Aiden 15:50, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't even know how to repond to that in a way that you will not find insulting but all I will say is yes- that is exactly how things are. Christians believe they worship one God via the a concept of a trinity that many (even believers) do not understand or accept as valid. Sophia 15:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

But that's irrelevent to the fact that they nonetheless believe there exists one God which is of course the definition of monotheism. —Aiden 15:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Lord Voldemort, no one is saying to put in the article that Christianity IS NOT monotheistic. What I object to is saying that it IS monotheistic. We have to stay neutral, saying neither one. Instead, we state that Christians believe that their religion is monotheistic, and other religions, such as Islam, disagree. Drogo Underburrow 16:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, well I believe that Christians don't believe Jesus was divine. They believe he didn't actually die on the cross. He didn't actually exist. Therefore, we must re-write the entire article because stating these things is POV in your opinion. I think I got it now. --You Know Who ^{(Dark Mark)} 16:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I want to know something, does the EB even specify what this un-named doctrine of Islamic people is? Because my Muslim friend at school was looking over my shoulder at this argument and he didn't say a word about "Yea, that Drogo Underburrow, smart guy, your such a polytheist man....". Homestarmy 16:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Scroll up on the page, I copied the entire section from the EB. I assure your Muslim friend I am not a polytheist, and ask him not to insult me, as coming from a Muslim that is being very insulting, Muslims consider polytheists to be grave sinners and think its ok to do all sorts of bad things to them, like kill them. Drogo Underburrow 16:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstood him, Drogo. His friend was mocking you, not calling you a polytheist. —Aiden 16:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I meant that if hypothetically he were to say that, it would of been in the context of him calling you a smart guy, (non-mockingly), and in the context of proceding to call me a polytheist, since I am a Christian :/. But your EB article didn't seem to specify the doctrine, it just said "Islamic doctrine says" without seeming to be more specific. Homestarmy 16:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Truth is most people don't understand it all and don't care either way. Let's leave it alone for a week and all go do lots of other article edits then come back when we've all had time to think it over some more. Sophia 16:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Lord Voldemort, the article cannot state it as a fact that Jesus was divine. The article must simply state that Christians believe he was divine. The article cannot state as a fact that Jesus existed. It can only state that the vast majority of scholars assume he existed in some form. The article cannot state as a fact that he died on the cross; it can only state that the Gospels say he did. etc, etc. Drogo Underburrow 16:16, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Technically speaking it could say all those things, but it would probably violate policy :D. Homestarmy

Christian editors are being very unreasonable on this issue. Here's why: they want the article to state as the very first thing their POV as a fact, that they are monotheists, and shunt to the end of the article a statement that disagrees, expressed as only an opinion. Drogo Underburrow 16:29, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, we are monotheists, what do you expect us to do, say "Ah, who cares about that "Thou shalt not lie" business anyway, let's say that our monotheism isn't a fact just to appease our invisible muslim friends, weee!" I mean come on, surely there is something you believe strongly in (That doesn't include being NPOV) that you know would be entirely dishonest and deceptive to equivocate and downgrade meanings over? Homestarmy 16:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo, the article cannot state as fact that Jesus was divine, nor can it state as fact that there is one God. It can however state that according to Christianity, there is one God. That is exactly what stating "Christianity is a monotheistic religion" does. It says, "Christians believe there is one God," nothing more. —Aiden 16:43, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Drogo:

• The Encyclopedia Britannica is not Muslim doctrine.
• It in no way violates NPOV to identify the Christian POV as the Christian POV. However, let's not mischaracterize the Christian POV. The Christian POV is not "Christianity is monotheistic." Rather, the Christian POV is "there is only one God."
• It is an objective fact that Christian doctrine states that there is only one God. By definition (doctrine or belief), this is monotheism, regardless of anyone's POV.

But most important of all:

• Why is this argument being made by people who are neither Christian nor Muslim? As we should not mischaracterize the Christian POV, let us also not mischaracterize the Muslim POV. Let Muslims speak for themselves. Do not put words in their mouths! So, according to Encyclopedia Britannica, according to Islamic doctrine (which doctrine?) the Christian dogma is a form of tritheism. According to an actual Muslim, it is not Muslims who say that Christianity is tritheistic, but Christians who say that Muslims say that Christianity is tritheistic. Do you see the problem? Encyclopedia Britannica is not Muslim. Thetruereligion.org is explicitly Muslim :"An enlightened guide to Islamic beliefs, culture and civilization." If we are going to cite the Muslim POV, let's cite the Muslim POV. Let's not cite the Encyclopedia Britannica citing the Muslim POV is such a way that Muslims themselves call a mischaracterization!
• To put it another way, if you cite the EB, you are not citing Muslim doctrine or the Muslim POV; rather, you are simply citing the EB. Do not mischaracterize your sources. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 17:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Total rewrite

Okay, Drogo has a point. Let's rewrite this entire article. Here are some things that the article needs to change:

• That it is monotheistic. (obviously)
• That it is a religion. (what if it's really a cult or a sect of Judaism?)
• That it's centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. (There are some things he taught that aren't followed by Christians, and he may have not really existed anyway)
• That it's recounted in the New Testament. (We don't really know who wrote the books and how true they really are)
• That Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah. (some Christians just think he was a really groovy dude that wore sandals)
• That they refer to him as "Jesus Christ" (some call him JC, Jesus, Lord, Lamb of God, and many others)
• That there are an estimated 2.1 billion Christians and is the world's largest religion (it's only an estimate, and again, with that "religion" word. And what about all the people who believe in invisible beings that wander the world with us? What about their religion?)

Okay, so I've broken down the first three sentences... So perhaps they should read: Christianity is an alleged monotheistic so-called religion centered somewhat on the life and some of teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, if he really existed which may not be true, as recounted in the anonymously authored and highly specious New Testament. Some Christians believe "Jesus" to be the Messiah, if one exists, and thus refer to him sometimes as "Jesus Christ", as well as "guy", "dude", and "liberal". With an estimated 2.1 billion so-called adherents in the "Christian" calendar year of 2001, Christianity is the world's largest "religion" (not counting the invisible beings that are present at all times).

Sound good? Anyone else wanna help break down the rest? Yes, I'm trying to make a point (no, not a WP:POINT). This is an encyclopedia. We describe things. We give them the best possible description and explanation as possible. The best possible description of what Christians believe is "monotheism". We do give critics of this view some time in the article, but we don't change the entire thing just because some disagree with what Christians hold true. --You Know Who ^{(Dark Mark)} 16:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Haha. —Aiden 16:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

No one is recommending that the article be written from the POV of a skeptic, either. All we are suggesting is that one word be ommitted from the introduction, so that it would read:

Christianity is a religion centered on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recounted in the New Testament. Christians believe Jesus to be the Messiah, and thus refer to him as Jesus Christ. With an estimated 2.1 billion adherents in 2001, Christianity is the world's largest religion.

Then in the body of the article, the issue of monotheism can be dealt with neutrally, neither asserting that Christians are correct, nor that Islam is correct either, but simply both POV's described equally with neither being asserted as correct or incorrect. Drogo Underburrow 17:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Aiden, this commentary is becoming too personal & too unproductive --JimWae 17:04, 23 May 2006 (UTC) - Guess I did not know who "You Know Who" was. It is still becoming a personality clash --JimWae 17:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was I, and not Aiden who wrote this. And it is not unproductive, because it serves as an hyperbole of Drogo's argument. And Drogo, if not written by a skeptic, then why not have it say "Christianity is a thing" since all of the other aspects of those sentences have now been challenged as well. --You Know Who ^{(Dark Mark)} 17:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)