Talk:Heysel Stadium disaster

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This article is very slightly, but noticeably, biased towards Liverpool fans (the way the 2005 CL tie is described noticeably more so).

It did not mention the liverpool fans starting the surge were DRUNK, and the use of the term "italians" instead of Juventus supporters suggests nationalistic and xenophobic undertones.

Forgive me for being perhaps a tad ignorant, but when exactly did 'Italian' cease being a reasonable description of someone from Italy? I could see where you're coming from if they were referred to as 'Eyeties' or 'wops', but no. Sometimes it's 'Italians' (and sometimes it's 'Juventus fans'): but then, the supporters of the opposing club are sometimes referred to as 'English'. Does that make whoever put that in automagically an anti-English bigot?

Secondly, if drunkenness is to be mentioned in the article, shoudn't the possiblity that 'supporters' on both sides had been drinking before the game be mentioned? English people aren't the only ones who like a drink. Hig Hertenfleurst 17:50, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Okay, seeing as how it's been two weeks since this was flagged and nobody has appeared to support it (including the person responsible), I'm going to take the NPOV/factual flag down this evening, unless anyone's got an objection they can be arsed to follow up. Hig Hertenfleurst 10:00, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

why not edit it so that it is juventus fans then!?

juventus fans fans are well known as ultra right wing fans along with lazio and inter fans. to assume the disaster was a one sided affair without any provacation from any juventus fans is not only naive but also foolish. Video footage proves this. I also think that the Belgium FA should have been punished for failing to properly organise and police the game. I also think that if the wall had not collapsed that night the blame of any incidents taking place would have been split equally to liverpool fans and juventus fans.

some of the liverpool fans were drunk and rushed over to some juventus fans sitting in the neutral section of the ground. the article doesnt mention this, but talks of juve fans raining missiles?! where did that come from?

Raining Missiles - read some articles

Read Alan Hansen's account in the BBC Sport page (05th April) on his experience at Heysel. There's one source, for you. Personally , I remember seeing News footage of the event (BBC and ITV) - and there was a lot. Juve fan's were throwing bits of cement, and fireworks - yes I know it happens alot in Italian (can I say Italian?) football, but following a few days after the Bradford fire disaster.....a bit provocative. The Liverpool fans rushed the Juventus fans, yes there is no excuse for this behaviour- However -remember this is the '80's and rushing the opposition supporters was a common , and amazingly at the time regarded as a fairly harmless, practice. (Read Nick Hornby - Fever Pitch, and the other dozens of lesser books on Engish Football in this period). The events were horrible, no one was ever really punished - but following years of English Clubs doing this kind of thing,all over Europe, this was the final and most tragic straw. Before this, Liverpool fans were not known as hooligans quite the opposite; but that was by the standards of the day. No excuses should be made ; but at least a balanced view from recorded archives to understand why something happened. We should also not forget the legislation brought into the game following this, especially around barriers - created many of the problems which made Hillsborough such a tragedy.(Taylor Report).

I clearly remember watching BBC Breakfast Time the morning before the match where they were discussing the game. Frank Bough was talking to co-presenter Debbie Greenwood (a Liverpudlian) and I remember him saying something like "There will be no no trouble, because there are no Hooligans among the Liverpool supporters", and Debbie Greenwood nodding away. Liverpool fans were definitely not known as trouble makers before that match. Jooler 18:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The 2005 Champions League tie

I think the bit about the 2005 CL tie between the clubs could use some rewriting. If I didn't know better I'd get the impression that there were a lot more trouble than there actually was. At Anfield in Liverpool, all that happened was that some of the Juve fans turned their backs to the apologies to show they weren't quite ready to forgive yet. There were no physical confrontations between fans there at all. In Turin there were some minor confrontations between fans and Juve ultras quarreled with the police outside the stadium and yes, there were a few seats and bottles and things thrown inside the stadium but there were hardly more problems than what's par for the course in a game in Italy these days. Considering the worries people had before the games, everything went AMAZINGLY well.

Copyvio

I removed the first section which copied the h2g2 article pretty much word for word. [1] Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 14:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just a comment H2g2 is a peer review site written by the public, like wikipedia, so you cant really copyvio it can you? Philc _T^E_C^I 16:17, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

another comment, the whole article is a copyvio of the h2g2 article [2] --Philc _T^E_C^I 20:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

sorry, no its not just the background paragraph Philc _T^E_C^I 20:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Which events in Rome?

This article currently has the sentence:

After the events in Rome, club rivalries had been put aside: Juventus were to catch the full fury of the English hooligan elite.

These "events in Rome" are not referred to earlier in the article. It would be helpful if either (a) they were previously mentioned or (b) a hyperlink is added to "events in Rome" to refer to an alternate wikpedia article about these events.

There was a documentary on the BBC called "Reds in Europe" I think. In it, Phil Thompson and some supporters at the final in Rome in 1984 described how Liverpool fans were attacked when they were leaving the stadium. I don't know any more than that really. I'll have a look for any further info I can find. --MackORell 12:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was surprised there's no mention of those events in detail to be honest. It's the reason various English FC firms turned up. Basically LFC scarfies were set upon in Rome, none of the English firms liked it and arranged to go to Heysel together to claim revenge. There's a mention of it at http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A713909 and also at http://family.maltanet.net/hawk/html/Heysel.html PhilipPage 21:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I found this page with Kenny Dalglish's opinion on what happened at Heysel - http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/dalglish-heysel.shtm He mentions the trouble in Rome. If you look at footage of Heysel, before the trouble started, you can see people on the Liverpool side of the fence standing "facing off" towards the Juve side (although there were a fair few Liverpool supporters in the "neutral section" too). There's a guy actually waving a Union Jack at them.--MackORell 05:15, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The events in Rome were in this article but someone, after others said this article was biased towards Liverpool, took it out and replaced it with that one sentence. But to understand it, the background section needs to be there, not alluded to. So I put back the original Background section.

Other fans

Are you going to cite any sources for the Millwall and other fans being there? Strikes me as bullshit to make Liverpool fans seem less responsible by dilution. Not that I'd be surprised from a scouse apologist Pear 11:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's some articles that mention other clubs' fans being there and intent on causing trouble. But it was only Liverpool fans who were charged for it, so any other "firms" who were there obviously didn't cause enough trouble to warrant being arrested. It sounds very dubious.

When was the stadium built?

The article cites the stadium as having been built in 'the twenties' and in '1930'. Can someone who knows correct whichever of these is wrong?

A. Consensus elsewhere on the web seems to suggest 1930 - some sites say 1920s but these are very much in the minority. On that basis I changed "in the 1920s" to "1930". 147.188.192.41 13:49, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Book

This article looks like its been written as novel, It has so many requirements of citation and unverified statements and POV, that it looks to me like a tear down and start again job. Philc _T^E_C^I 17:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to try and find sources for the article, but I agree that probably half of it will eventually have to be removed. The sources I have been finding are generally eyewitness reports from Liverpool fans and hearsay from Liverpool players, which is hardly NPoV. A few that seem uncontroversial I'm putting in though or we'd end up with no article! aLii 01:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

List of the victims

Before putting it into the article I thought that perhaps we should talk about it. I personally think that it should be included as a mark of respect, and it is informative after all. The list is:

Rocco Acerra; Bruno Balli; Alfons Bos; Giancarlo Bruschera; Andrea Casula; Giovanni Casula; Nino Cerrullo; Willy Chielens; Giuseppina Conto; Dirk Daenicky; Dionisio Fabbro; Jaques Francois; Eugenio Gagliano; Francesco Galli; Giancarlo Gonnelli; Alberto Guarini; Giavacchino Landinni; Roberto Lorenzini; Barbara Lusci; Franco Martelli; Loris Massore; Gianni Mastroiaca; Sergio Bastino Mazzino; Luciano Rocco Papaluca; Benito Pistolato; Patrick Radcliffe; Demenico Ragazzi; Antonio Ragnanese; Claude Robert; Mario Ronchi; Domencio Russo; Tarcisio Salvi; Gianfranco Sarto; Mario Spanu; Amedeo Giuseppe Spolaore; Tarcisio Venturin; Jean Michel Walla; Claudio Zavaroni.

I got the list from football365.com - it is not mentioned in most news articles. aLii 01:10, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also where did "32 Italians, 4 Belgians, two Frenchmen and an Irishman" come from? I've found two sources that state it was 38 Italians and 1 Belgian. Admittedly Patrick Radcliffe sounds Irish, and a good few sound more Belgian than Italian to me, but we should strive to get this stuff correct, or at least not wrong. "39 dead, mostly Italian" is what I decided upon for the abstract. aLii 02:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The London Juventus supporters club website also lists the victims [3]. The BBC website mentions Italian and Belgian victims, no French or Irish [4], and I have found other sources that state 38 Italians and 1 Belgian. k m s 09:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To do

Here's a timeline of the aftermath for someone to use, i'm going to bed... http://football.guardian.co.uk/championsleague200405/story/0,15008,1450635,00.html aLii 03:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]