Talk:History of Poland

BTW, i posted Dagome Iudex in latin. i will soon post article with discussion about Scandinavian beginnings of Mieszko. (first version) szopen

--- You're going to have to do better than: It was a wise political move to maintain sovereignty and remain independent from the German state. --MichaelTinkler

Re the tribes -- are they tribes or peoples? I'm not trying to be troublesome, but Baltic ethnicity has been a thorn in my side for a couple of months now. Personally, I would like to see only pertinent information, with links to each ethnic/cultural group involved...JHK

This article is *really* unNPOV and repeats lot of Polish nationalist propaganda. --Taw

...et tu Taw contra me ? ;-)) --Kpjas

yup, this Introduction really needed lot of NPOVification. --Taw

Old Introduction:

History of Poland is over 10 centuries long. It has been and to the present day is determined by Poland's geographical location. Poland has always been regarded as a bridge or barrier between the West and the (savage) East. From 966 AD Poland was included into the Latin Christian World and it was planned to make Poland as a forefront spreading Christianity eastward and defending the West at the same time. On numerous occasions Poland's existence was endangered by aggressive expansion of her neighbours that were greedy for new land - in 10 and 11th centuries the Czech and then Germans, Swedes, Russians and Austrians. There were times when once the grand and mighty Polish state was reduced to a small dukedom that was almost totally dependent on Russia. Worse still, Poland was altogether wiped out from the maps of Europe for many years until 1918 when after the World War I it regained independence. One of the features that best characterizes Polish people is that they stand strengthened in times of oppression and hardship. It is very well illustrated by the first line of the Polish national anthem : "Poland will not perish as long as we are alive..." Now, Poland is a proud nation of indisputable sovereignty, united with her allies in the NATO and aspiring to become a full member of the European Union.

Taw, I will be happy to copyedit for better English, sections, etc. In answer to your question about the use of the word 'duke', do you know what he was called in Latin documents of the time? I'm fairly familiar with those titles, and could probably come up with a correct translation in historical context. I am pretty sure that the title usually given is indeed Duke, but that meant something different in the 10th c. than in the 12th, and was also different for east and west...JHK

The problem is that in Polish we have only one word 'ksiaze' for many different concepts. In this case, Mieszko was just a crownless Christian ruler of a country. I'm not sure about his relation to the Emperor. It changed too often during early Polish history, and all crownless rulers are called 'ksiaze' anyway. Iirc he wasn't Emperor's vassal. --Taw

That's why I thought it would be good to see the Latin -- anybody know where to find it? JHK

Oldest Latin documentation ('Dagome iudex') calls him 'iudex', which is probably a translation of some tribal function. But such name isn't used by Polish historical terminology, so it's not very useful. --Taw

Given the iudex thing, does anyone know (or have a good dictionary) any other possible translations for iudex (besides judge) in this context? JHK

What kind of evidence is *this* depending on:

The masses did not identify with Poland until the advent of nationalism in the 18th-20th centuries.

I changed it to 'do not seem to have identified' pending further explanation.

BTW, Dagome Iudex is, IIRC, not the oldest document with reference to Poland. Is one of the oldest, but not _the_ oldest, unless i am mistaken. Widukind, Ibrahim Ibn Jakub etc wrote about Poland and Mieszko earlier.

And, in summary of Micheal Tinkler changes i saw "queation", but i can't find any his question here? szopen

Removed for the main page :
In 1985 the Sczeczin bishop Jan Galecki praised the Catholic clergy of Poland for the roll they played in the establishment of "Stabilisation of the Western Territories". This roll of getting rid of minoritieswas defined by the highest ranking church official of Poland Primate Cardinal August Hlond over many years.
This is more a rant to justify some sulky feelings of resentment against Poland than Polish history in its own right. It was Hitler and his politics that was detrimental to the prosperity of the German Volk than Polish nationalists etc.
Kpjas

Removed: Since the death of the Polish moderate leader Pilsudski in 1935, Poland's rulers have been openly nationalistic, lead by the highest authority in Poland the Primate of the Catholic Church of Poland, Cardinal August Hlond.

This just didn't make sense in context of where it was in the article, nor did it make sense in English. I also took out (again) this bit Kpjas objected to, because it didn't really fit.

Also, I revised much of the article to maintain chronological order and to introduce more NPOV. Then I noticed the bloody thing starts up again with the Middle Ages. I will try to incorporate the bottom section of the article, which has a lot of great information, into the upper portion and break it down into coherent chronological parts. J Hofmann Kemp

Removed from the article:
The Polish Roman Catholic Primate, Cardinal Hlond, returned to Poland from exile at the end of the war. One of his actions unpon arrival was to expel many ethnic German members of the clergy. There is still debate as to the reasons for Hlond's actions. Doubtless there were different motivations in different cases. Hlond was certainly a supporter of Polish nationalism, and this may have had something to do with the expulsions. But it should also be noted that some of the clergy had been seen as Nazi sympathizers, or even collaborators, and this may have had something to do with Hlond's actions. Finally, the expulsions, not only of German clergy, but also the majority of the ethnic German population, must be considered as part of the Soviet-supported reprisals against the Germans at the end of the war."
SC