Talk:Anti-Zionism

The quote I added to this article does not represent my own opinion; I added it only so that readers can see how anti-Zionists, particularly Arabs, view Zionism. It is likely that the author of the quoted remark misunderstands Zionism or is deliberately slandering it for ulterior motives, but that is hard to judge.

For example, Hassan Tahsin writes: "Thus, Nazism in Germany, Imperial Japan (until 1945) the Ku Klux Klan in the US, apartheid in South Africa and Zionism in Palestine are considered the worst types of racism in modern history. Zionism, in fact, is 'a racist, religious and occupational movement connected from its inception by international colonialism'." [1]

--Ed Poor

Here is another view from The Department for Jewish Zionist Education:

Among the most harmful UN anti-Israel resolutions was the notorious General Assembly #3379 resolution equating Zionism with racism, passed in November 1975 by 72 to 35. It stated that Zionism "is a form of racism and racial discrimination... [and] is a threat to world peace and security." [2]

The article says:

This issue is made more confusing by differing uses of the terms "racism" and "racial discrimination". Formally, racism is the belief that one race is superior to another; but many people use it as a synonym for racial discrimination. Furthermore, many people use "racial discrimination" broadly, to include discrimination on the basis of both ethnicity and race. Many Zionists have interpreted anti-Zionists who call Zionism racist or racially discriminatory as believing that Jews are a distinct race from non-Jews -- some may do so (particularly those inspired by racial anti-semitism) -- but others may merely be using sloppy terminology, and are really talking about ethnicity.

It seems that "race" and "ethnicity" are being equated, at least informally, here -- possibly as part of an argument:

premise: ethnic discrimination is equivalent to racial discrimination
premise: racial discrimination is racism
Hence, ethnic discrimination is racism
premise: Israel practices ethnic discrimination
Hence, Israel practices racial discrimination
And thus, Israel practices racism

Some advocates further add:

premise: countries which practice racism should be condemned.
Hence, Israel should be condemned

I myself neither agree nor disagree with the above reasoning: I am just trying to figure out how various people see things, so I can describe their points of view in the articles. --Ed Poor 16:14 Sep 6, 2002 (UCT)

Ed: My point is that, correctly or not, a lot of people do equate "race" and "ethnicity", and some people equate "racism" and "racial discrimination"; and hence at least some people who call Israel or Zionism "racist" are actually talking about discrimination on the basis of ethnicity. I think its important to point this out, since Zionists will say they are mistakenly viewing Jews as a race, or point out that Jews are racially diverse (e.g. the Falashas)--some anti-Zionists may well be making this mistake, and for them this criticism of the Zionists would be correct, but for others they may just be using sloppy language, and really mean the different claim that "Zionism, in practice, inevitably involves ethnic discrimination". I think we should try to describe what people really mean (when this can be discovered), not just take everything they say literally to the point of creating a strawman argument against them. -- SJK, 2002-09-07, 0033 UTC.

Thanks for inserting words like "claim", "argue" & "consider". Such words help the article attribute a point of view to its advocate. --Ed Poor

Thanks Ed for the compliment. At the moment the article contains the following sentence (which I have changed from a statement to a claim, but kept the same point):

In addition, they claim that anti-Zionists fail to distinguish between Israel the state, and Israelis and Jews as individuals, and argue this is a form of anti-Semitic demonization and hatred.

I would like to ask whoever was originally responsible for this comment, what exactly are they talking about? Can we have a specific example of where they claim an anti-Zionist fails to make this distinction? (I agree that maybe some or even many anti-Zionists might fail to make this distinction, but I can't see any necessary logical connection between anti-Zionism and the failure) -- SJK

Also, whoever wrote the following, could they explain what they mean by it: "The consensus that emerged from the following public debate was that since Judaism is not seen by Jews exclusively as a religion (see above), once one rejects one's nationality, one can no longer simultaneously demand membership in it." How can not viewing Judaism as exclusively a religion justify consider a convert to another religion a non-Jew? I would have thought the opposite--if you think Judaism is exclusively a religion, then you would not accept a convert to another religion as still being a Jew; on the other hand, if you do not consider Judaism to be exclusively a religion, then you might be willing to consider a convert from Judaism to another faith as still being Jewish. -- SJK

I wrote that part (months ago), I think I meant it to read "exclusively as a nationality". I'll rephrease it. --~~

Zionists do not claim that anti-Zionism in and of itself is anti-Semitic, since at one time the majority of Jews were anti-Zionist -- but those who view anti-Zionism as inevitably antisemitic believe that in today's situation it is inherently so, even if theory or in different historical circumstances it might not be.

This paragraph seems obscure and redundant to me.

This issue is made more confusing by differing uses of the terms "racism" and "racial discrimination". Formally, racism is the belief that one race is superior to another; but many people use it as a synonym for racial discrimination. Furthermore, many people use "racial discrimination" broadly, to include discrimination on the basis of both ethnicity and race. Many Zionists have interpreted anti-Zionists who call Zionism racist or racially discriminatory as believing that Jews are a distinct race from non-Jews -- some may do so (particularly those inspired by racial anti-semitism) -- but others may merely be using sloppy terminology, and may really be talking about ethnicity.

Regarding the semantic dispute about "racism": sure, the speakers might be using sloppy terminology. But they still do an emotional hijacking, and they do it consciously. I think that should be mentioned.

Opponents of Zionism argue that although Israel allows people of many different races to become Israeli citizens, it still nonetheless discriminates against non-Jews (in immigration and nationality laws, and access to government benefits), and that by defining itself as a "Jewish" state, it inevitably excludes other non-Jews, even if only on a psychological level.

This phrase needs review.

Immigration and nationality laws have a distinct status from internal laws and qualities of being racist or non-racist cannot usually be attributed to them. Thus, I've heard noone so far saying Germany was discriminating against non-Germans. Obviously if very few (if any) people world-wide claim Germany implements a racist policy, it is hypocritical to claim that Israel does, by doing the same.
Access to government benefits? Which exactly? Arabs receive the same social benefits as Jews; there's no de-jure discrimination. Of course, discrimination may exist de-facto - but this article is about discussing the conceptual problem.
"Only a psychological level": do Swiss Muslims experience a problem with having a cross as their flag? Do British Catholics protest the Queen's declared status as the leader of the one true church?

Many anti-Zionists are undoubtedly antisemitic, in the classical sense of the term; but many others are not, and find antisemitism abhorrent.

We have discussed this at length haven't we?

A decision in July 2002 that some housing areas were restricted for Jews became debated.

It never got submitted to the Knesset because it was a dead horse. Why beat it? --Uri

I have removed this very odd paragraph

An opposing view would note that inherent to this definition is the view that a state of Israel has existed since the Jewish Diaspora. The reformation of a Jewish state directly changed who owned the land, and who lived in the region, in some ways paralleling the original Roman army. This created a Palestinian diaspora. Some would indeed claim that the state of Israel is a colonial movement. The view that colonization happens in areas where the land is totally alien to the oppressors is also not substantiated. Before 1812, politically, and emotionally, the country of Canada did not exist. Ties across the border with the USA were much stronger than across the ocean with England. A single nation comprising the British colonies of Canada and the country of the United States was almost inevetable. It was the process of attempting to colonize Canada in 1812 which lead to the establishment of a Canadian identity, and a separate country. Similary, Britain colonized wales and scotland, areas that were hardly totally alien.

For the following reasons, mostly to do with the second half.

1. The country of Canada, in the form of the colony of Nova Scotia, existed long before 1812.

2. The inevitability of union between Canada and the US during the period from 1776 to 1812 was pretty low owing to the bad feeling created during the Revolutionary war between the Empire Loyalists and the rebels.

3. Wales was conquered but not colonized unlike Ireland which was conquered and colonised in the north although not in the south.

4. Scotland was neither conquered nor colonised. It entered into a treaty of with England covering currency union, free trade, taxation union and political union which is more thoroughgoing in practice but not dissimilar in principle to the one which the UK has more recently entered into with the European Community.

It seems to me that these flaws in the supporting part of the paragraph are too deep to fix, so the paragraph should be removed until better supporting evidence for its main point can be written. -- Derek Ross 10:55 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)

The linking of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism seems very controversial and not NPOV. Among prominent American anti-Zionists, for example, are several Jews (Noam Chomsky being probably the most famous); some claim they are in fact anti-Semites, but this is a controversial claim, not a neutral statement of fact. There are also several anti-Zionist Orthodox Jewish sects, most notably the Satmars, who oppose Zionism on religious rather than anti-Semitic grounds. In any case, it seems extremely objective to imply that nearly all anti-Zionists are anti-Semitic. The strongest claim that's justifiable is that perhaps "most" are, with an explicit proviso that there are some who are not (with a statement of a few of these exceptions, as I've just mentioned above). But this is a controversial enough article that I'll solicit some feedback before making edits. -- Delirium