Talk:Texans for Truth

Memos

The so-called "memos" which are behind part of this story are alleged to be forgeries. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 16:04, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rex whether these documents are forgeries are not has absolutely nothing to do with TfT. It belongs in the article about the controversy about George Bush's National Guard service. I'm removing it. --Nysus 16:17, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Please discuss before deleting

Nysus, I object to you making deletions without discussing them 1st. Please discuss and wait for answer. Thank you. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 17:03, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK, Rex, now please respond to my concern that the information you wish to insert into the language is not relevant to TfT. I will give you an entire 24 hours to justify why you think the data you wish to insert into the article has anything to do with TfT.

TfT isn't the group that produced the documents. The Pentagon actually uncovered them. So, as I stated above, your link and the claim that the documents are forgeries has nothing to do with TfT and belongs in the article about George Bush's national guard service.
Your citation is to an obscure blog that cites a discussion board on another web site. It simply is not a credible source of information. So, to display my infinite amount of patience with you again and the great lengths I will go through to compromise with you, I'm willing to let stand an unsubstantiated charge from a severley biased and unreputable source that will be in the article for at least 24 hours. --Nysus 17:13, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also, Rex, can you please explain why you think your version is superior to mine? I don't see that you added anything (except biased and unsubstantiated claims). My version is below, which is also more concise and to the point. Please explain what problems you have with it.

The Bush-Cheney campaign dismissed TfT as "a smear group launching baseless attacks on behalf of John Kerry's campaign that will be rejected by the American people."[1] Questions about his National Guard record have dogged Bush since 2000 when he first ran for President. Newly uncovered documents and news stories coinciding with the TfT ads fanned the controversy over his National Guard service two months before the election. The White House maintains that "the president served honorably in the National Guard, fulfilled his duties and was honorably discharged."[2] --Nysus 17:59, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Not to cause further strife, but I removed it myself for two reasons. One is that this is not the proper forum for discussing the details of this controversy, the proper forum is George W. Bush military service controversy. Also, a blog entry is not a proper, reliable source for encyclopedic information. We could find blogs which deny the Holocaust, promote creationism and a flat earth, and discuss the 27 shooters in the JFK assassination, but we shouldn’t be sourcing them here. In any case, if I thought this was the proper forum, I would add this blog posting from Andrew Sullivan: “If the docs are forgeries, why would the White House have released two identical copies that it had in its possession after the CBS broadcast? Did the White House forge them as well?” [3] [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 18:01, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for chipping in Gamaliel. As you see, we both agree for the same reasons. --Nysus 18:03, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm reverting Rex's revert back to my version as he has provided no justification for his changes other than "I have no time to talk". Rex should return to make those changes and discuss them here when he does have time to talk instead of reverting now. And for the record, the first revert was made by Rex, despite what his edit summary claims. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 18:27, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I just removed several links from the page. None of these are from reputable sources, nor do they provide information to the group. They are also inherantly partisan. Lyellin 03:00, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Attempt to seed article with bogus news stories

I just reverted an addition to the links section for the following reason: This supposed "related news" item is not related to TfT and is not from an established reputable news source; cnsnews is a division of "Media Research Center," a right-wing propaganda house. Adding this link would be akin to linking to moveon.org for a news story. --Nysus 19:19, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This is merely a disagreement of our editor's perspectives. Please desist form removing my links. Thank you. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404

]] 20:01, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The link has no relevance to this article and belongs in George W. Bush military service controversy. Feel free to add it there, but it does not belong here and I am removing it on that basis. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel File:Watchmensmiley20.gif]] 20:13, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I disagree with your assessment. And I am restoring the link on that basis. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404

]] 20:53, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Links

This was on my talk page:

Reverted your links. Nysus and Gamaliel have both given good reasons for the links not being included. You have given no reasons for them being included. Before reverting them for the umpteenth time please give your reasons. AlistairMcMillan 02:11, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In reply to the above, the links I am posting are equally germane as the current link from WAPO [4]. I am restoring my (2) links. Reason: Relevance. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 02:29, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rex

Three independent people, now, have reverted Rex's change. Yet, he continues to make his change without any reasoned justification whatsoever.

I'm not going to hold my tongue about Rex anymore: this fucking bullshit needs to stop. Please sign below if you wish to file a complaint against Rex and agree with the statement below. --Nysus 02:44, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Statement: I have read the history and discussion of this article. It is clear to me that Rex is going out of his way to be disruptive. I desire an administrator review his work on this article to determine if it merits a ban of Rex's further contributions to it.

--Nysus 02:44, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I endorse this statement.

Kevin Baas | talk 03:42, 2004 Sep 10 (UTC) Rex's conduct on this page is completely opposite of his conduct on Swift Boaters for Truth, which caused him to be banned from editing three articles. His purported judgements are clearly hypocritical, and strongly biased.
JamesMLane 04:21, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC) In principle, Rex's conduct certainly merits a ban. I endorse the statement but with two caveats. First, I'm not completely clear on the extent to which current Wikipedia rules allow a single administrator to block a problem user from editing a particular article. It may be that the rules allow such a block for only a limited time, but I endorse the maximum block permitted. Second, I'm aware that Rex hasn't been editing this article for very long (although he's already managed to violate the three-reverts limit). My judgment is based in part on my knowledge of his conduct on numerous other articles, which demonstrates that his actions here were not a temporary aberration.

Comments and discussion

I disagree, if you bothered to read the links I am posting, you will see that they are equally germane as the WAPO link you are not complaining about. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404

]] 02:53, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Validity of links

On the front page of the "Texans for truth" web site, is says this "In other words, Bush failed to fulfill his military duty while others were dying in Vietnam.". Claims along these lines are the central focus of TfT and for that reason, links which tend to illustrate Bush's side of the story regarding National Guard service are indeed germane. Simply because some of these links may also be relevant elsehwere on this Wiki, does not make them automatically prohibited here. The larger disputes regarding Bush are the "set" of all the complaints about him. Tft and their allegations are a "subset" and as such, links that well serve this TfT page may also be worthwhile elsewhere - they are not mutually exclusive. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 02:59, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rex, first your quote there is taken way out of context. Here is the full paragraph the quote is in: "Texans for Truth, established by the 20,000-member Texas online activist group, DriveDemocracy.org, has produced a 0:30 second television advertisement, "AWOL." The ad features Robert Mintz, one of many who served in Alabama's 187th Air National Guard -- when Bush claims to have been there -- who have no memory of Bush on the base. In other words, Bush failed to fulfill his military duty while others were dying in Vietnam." TfT is alleging Bush is AWOL only on the fact that the Mintz did not see Bush, not based on the genuineness of any documents.

The Washington Post article mentions TfT. That is why the Washington Post article is included in the list of links. Your cnsnews.com link, however, mentions nothing about TfT. Nor does it mention anything about any of TfT's specific allegations (that involved Mintz). Also, the article is about "forged" documents. TfT had nothing to do with these documents. Therefore, it is not "Related News." In addition, as has been pointed out several times, it is not a reputable source of information (see above). Until you address each of these points, I strongly recommend the CNSNews should go away. --Nysus 03:21, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rex, this is your fourth revert against 4 independent people and is more evidence of your disruptive editing techniques. We are watching you now, very closely. You won't get away with your antics for much longer. --Nysus 03:20, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't respond well to threats. Nor do I appreciate mass deletions of multiple links. The cabal of link deleters here has deleted multiple links which I have posted. You have addressed only one. What about the others? And also, your complaints do not address the topical connection which is National Guard and documented service. Nor does it address the set/subset issue I raised. No harm is being done by my links - there are only four of them at this point -and no benefit acrues to the article from your effort to force a very narrow vision of the topic on the reader. The links are valid and I think they should stay. Even so, if you can make a clear argument against each of the four links as to how they actually harm the article, I might be inclined to agree on a link by link basis. Bear in mind though, the story only broke today. Therefore, as links to other sources which you are unable to denigrate show up on the web, your argument will lose that (weak) leg. Therefore, you would be well advised to think long and hard before trying to send me back the the drawing board as my inclination would be to find two links for eveyone one you bump - so as to have some still standing when you are done shredding them. Are you sure that is the course you want to take? Please advise [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404

]] 03:37, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

TfT is a group that has so far placed one ad with one allegation. All the other editors involved in this article have simply asked that the links you place in the article should have relevance either to TfT or their one allegation. Is this really unreasonable to you? As TfT makes more allegations, you can place links relevant to those allegations in the links section. If a link doesn't have anything to do with TfT or their one allegation, we believe that placing them in George Bush controversy article about his National Guard service is more appropriate.

Your statement above is quite revealing of your true intentions, by the way. You said "you would be well advised to think long and hard before trying to send me back the the drawing board as my inclination would be to find two links for eveyone one you bump." That shows real good faith there, Rex. --Nysus 04:10, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rex, how do you consider holding multiple articles basically hostage, over the objections of a large amount of editors editing in good faith? Lyellin 03:46, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

How is it a "hostage" situation when plain as day, I have explained my views and am waiting for a reply? You can answer on behalf of Nysus if you so choose (see my detailed concerns above above). [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 03:56, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Because you threaten to put up a NPOV tag unless people agree with you. Because you insist that others must dialouge with you, but you can make any changes you want without dialouge. because you insist that since you believe something, we must include it, and you threaten to have two links for every one removed, etc, etc, etc. basically, it's like 'If you don't agree with me, I'll do everything possible to freeze progress on this page'. Hostage, and not good faith. Lyellin 04:40, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

My take on the disputed links:

American Spectator: no information about TfT except that MoveOn is behind it, which is already in the article; delete
mlive: additional detail about TfT funding, at a level of detail not appropriate for the article; keep
HillNews: not even a passing mention of TfT; belongs in George W. Bush military service controversy article if anywhere; delete
CNSNews: not even a passing mention of TfT; belongs in George W. Bush military service controversy article if anywhere; delete

As I read the talk and page history, this means I agree with Rex on one of the four and agree with everyone else on three of the four.

I also point out that, before getting into the external links controversy, I made two edits that didn't relate to the links at all. I would appreciate it if anyone tempted to make a knee-jerk revert would first do me (and our readers) the courtesy of actually reading those edits before reverting them. Thank you. JamesMLane 04:12, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

For what its worth: I agree with JML on the four links. The mlive funding article is fine. The others, if they belong anywhere on Wikipedia, do not belong here. AlistairMcMillan 04:43, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The focus of TfT is GWB's Guard service. that being hte case, a succinct recap from Byron York is helpful to the readers.
Even if there is some information redendancy by includeing American Spectator, it is topical and german and does not detract from the article.
I have however, yielded on the CNS link as I can appreciate that other editors (though not readers) may see a straw dog element to it. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 04:20, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rex, I agree that a succinct recap is helpful to the readers. The succinct recap here is that the Bush campaign says "the president served honorably in the National Guard, fulfilled his duties and was honorably discharged." There's then a link to the Wikipedia article that provides more information. Internal links are generally preferred to external ones. Although a columnist for a right-wing magazine is obviously not a neutral source, the York column has enough informational content that I wouldn't object to its being an external link in the George W. Bush military service controversy article. JamesMLane 04:32, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We are making progress with Rex

Good job! I feel that Rex is finally beginning to recognize that he must justify his reverts with more than an implicit "I'm right" attitude. He is now actually trying to justify his edits, something he has never done before. I applaud Rex for coming around. We need to still be diligent with Rex, however. Thanks to everyone who has contributed. Keep up the good work. --Nysus 04:22, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

False documents

Everyone, please read this ABC News link. Personally, I feel this is germane to this article as TfT is attacking GWB on Guard service. The common aim (defeat GWB) and context (via guard attacks) of his attackers, does I feel, create a sufficiently strong nexus and justification for inclusion. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 04:29, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So, documents that were irrevelant to TfT's ad are possibly faked. The nexus isn't anything Rex. If TfT were using these documents as their source, alright... but it was my understanding that the ad came out unrelated to the docs that were released. Besides, it worries me a bit that the Bush administration is releasing faked docs... *shrugs* Correct me if I'm wrong on the TfT and memo link. Lyellin 04:32, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

Rex, it seems that by your logic, I could collect several external links that are hostile to Bush on this issue, like the AWOL Bush website, and add them to the external links on the George W. Bush article. After all, they're germane to that article, as they're directly about Bush. That's a pretty clear nexus, I'd say.

Lyellin, having dailogged with you in the past, I know you are an intelleigent young man. Therefore, I ask; please reconsider the premise of this: "Besides, it worries me a bit that the Bush administration is releasing faked docs... ". It totally mistates the chain of custody for those documents. Certainly you are not suggesting that the chain of custody actually passed through administraion hands, are you? [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 ]] 04:45, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So, how about this as a compromise: The external links you're trying to insert in the Texans for Truth article will go in, and in return the anti-Bush links from the George W. Bush military service controversy article will go into the "External links" section of the George W. Bush article. How does that sound?

My answer, of course, is that both sets of additions would be a bad idea. We've tried to make life easier for the reader by putting the TANG controversy stuff all in one place. Short references in related articles are sometimes appropriate, but not a full blow-by-blow rehash. The point is that the argument for limiting the level of detail and of linking in the GWB article is also the argument for doing the same thing here. JamesMLane 04:43, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)