Talk:USS Liberty incident

An event mentioned in this article is a June 8 selected anniversary

Perhaps the last section could undergo a renaming to (something like) "Statement by Joe Meadors of USSLVA" just to make it known that it is not something natively included by the wikipedians, and is something with a definate perspective. Maybe? Ich 22:11, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I added some major points for the non-conspiracy theory arguments, as well as a link to the web site belonging to some of the survivors of USS Liberty. I recognize that I am biased, to some extent, due to my being an Israeli. However, when (and if) points are added to the pro-conspiracy theory arguments, I'd like them to be based on facts (mentioned in the body of the article), or refer to a reliable source (that is a source which takes into account the structure of the Israeli army, wittness accounts etc.) -- Uriyan.

Hoo boy! This page needs some NPOV lovin'. I can tell this is going to as contentious as some of our other fun topics like abortion and who shot JFK. -- ansible

(Abortion and JFK? child's play. Try writing up the Nurse Nayirah hoax, or pointing out that fluoride is not a good thing to drink, not even for your teeth. But I guess there will always be those who bleeve anything their gummint tells 'em. -- Driven Underground by Profluoridationists)

Prepared and submitted by:

Joe Meadors

Vice President

USS Liberty Veterans Association

email: [email protected]

March 26, 2002

All right, sir, several things. First of all, I have nothing against you trying to issue your view. But in Wikipedia we don't do this at the expense of deleting other people's opinions, no matter how inane they seem to you. Indeed, among us it is popular to try to get into other people's argument. I will try to be considerate of your argument - but I will not be silenced. --Uriyan

My apologies. I didn't intend for my changes to become contentious. I saw some incorrect information in the posting that I changed and corrected. I thought the easiest thing was to recreate it from scratch.

I also included some information that you left out -- like the actions of the Israelis during the attack.

Feel free to add or modify it as long as your changes reflect the facts and not merely conjecture.

I'd be interested in learning your background as it involves the USS Liberty attack and where you acquired your interest and expertise in USS Liberty research. As for me, I am a USS Liberty survivor and have been on the Board of Directors of the USS Liberty Veterans Association for most of the past 20 years since the organization was formed. --Jmeadors

Hello,

First of all I'd like to thank you for stopping this flamewar and deciding to talk, as I see this as a first step in making the article better (i.e. equally representative of the two main points of view). Generally, in Wikipedia it is considered extremely impolite to delete someone else's individual comments (as you did with my criticism of Ennes), and it is even more impolite to replace an existing point of view with your own entirely. See neutral point of view and Wikipetiquette for more details about that.

I added my points to the article and changed their order to chronological. I also described the attack according to the Navy Court transcripts and moved some of your points to "controversy". You should note that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - that is, as editors we're not supposed to have opinions. In order to state the opinions that every man obviously has, we state the appropriate fact (e.g. "no markings were seen on the Israeli aircraft") and then the particular opinions, mentioning their bearers ("The survivors of the ship claim that the attacking aircraft were unmarked").

My personal background is not as big as I could hope - which does not, however, invalidate my claims. I am an Israeli student fond of history; I've come across several mentioning of the USS Liberty incident in articles and books during the years. Several months ago, I saw a discussion at kuro5hin, and read some more. What I do have is some familiarity with the Israeli and Middle Eastern politics and history, and an Israeli perspective on things. --Uriyan

Would it be possible for me to "take advantage" of your interest in the Liberty? I'd like you to do some research for me. If you don't have any problem with it please email me at [email protected]. --Jmeadors

Unfortunately, I can't, since I'm a very amateurish historian with very little time to do serious research. If I do get some free time or if I come across something interesting, I can surely notify you.

In addition, I wanted to thank you for contributing to this article, and invite you to update it if you feel that my factual information is incomplete or you think that your point is misrepresented.

On a related note, while as far as I see, you've become interested with Wikipedia because of this particular article, I ask you to consider editing additional articles as well, because of your expertise as a Navy man and a researcher. --Uriyan

Let me post my request here in the event that some lurkers may be able to help.

For about 25 years we have had a copy of the IDF Preliminary Report 1/67 prepared in September, 1967 by a gentleman named Yerushalmi. It has come to be known as the Yerushalmi Report.

Since the account related by that report is so at odds with our recollections and in places defy the laws of physics we have been attempting to obtain a copy of the evidence and testimony that support the report. Unsuccessfully, I'm afraid.

If anyone has been able to obtain a copy of that evidence and testimony we'd appreciate it if you could provide us with a copy.

By the same token, if someone could pursue a course that would result in its being released and then provided to us we would be most appreciative. --Jmeadors

After having come back to this page after a couple days, I see that it is much improved! Kudos to everyone involved. -- ansible

I expanded the article some more trying to write what I'd figured out so far about who said what, perhaps more could be added. --Uriyan

As you add to your article could you also provide some footnote references to direct readers to the supporting documents? For example, where you say "the Israelis claim" or "the Americans claim" I'm sure readers will be interested in knowing exactly where your information is coming from. --Jmeadors

I restored the Israeli claims from memory (I remember reading quite a thorough discussion of the case from an old Army Encyclopedia, which I cannot, unfortunately, find anymore, and from an Army Lexicon which is quite brief), while most of the American claims are based on the statements you've made. If you feel that your opinion is misrepresented, feel free to change it. --Uriyan

With apologies in advance, it might be doing a disservice to readers of your synopsis not to let them know your account is being written from your recollections of the Army Encyclopedia and from a brief mention in an Army Lexicon.

I won't touch your wording and will adjust mine as appropriate.

You might want to see if you can get a copy of the "Preliminary Inquiry 1/67" (the Yerushalmi Report) prepared in September, 1967 and a copy of the IDF History Department Report of the attack published in 1982 as a direct result of the publication of Jim Ennes' book Assault on the Liberty. Both of those are "straight from the horse's mouth" so you won't have to depend upon the interpretation of intermediaries.

Different subject: In the history page that tells the modifications that have been made to the page it includes your screen name and a brief notation of the change you have made. I spent some time trying to find out how to do that but couldn't find the page telling me how. Could you direct me to it or tell me how? --Jmeadors

You need to special:UserLogin log in so the system knows who to assign your edits to. You need cookies enabled for this. (If you have trouble logging in, please give us details of the problem on the bug reports page.) Brion VIBBER, Thursday, March 28, 2002

Well, I'll add references when I get to the library (the Lexicon is easy but the encyclopedia might take some time). As to the two reports, I currently have neither the time nor the knowledge to locate them, but if I come across them accidentially, I'll probably study them. --Uriyan

"Don't have the time nor the knowledge" on how to conduct some basic research? I don't mean to be harsh, but perhaps you should have waited until you do have time to research the attack prior to writing an article about it. That would prevent your having to write one from your recollections of something you read some time ago.

A simple call to the IDF would be a logical first step.

I did a search of my computer files and came across an ASCII text of the Yerushalmi Report that was prepared many years ago.

I've taken the liberty of putting it up as an autoresponder. You or anyone else is free to obtain a copy of it by emailing [email protected] --Jmeadors

The reasons that I ever started seriously contributing to this article is (a) because it concerned Israel and (b) it presented the USS Liberty incident, which is ambiguous to say the very least, in a way that unambiguously threw all the blame unto Israel.

As to myself, I am only a student who is fond of history, not a historian. I have my studies, pending works, assignments (that make the Passover vacation more busy than most of the days during the rest of the year). USS Liberty is certainly an interesting area for serious researching (and when I get some spare time I will consider looking into it), but at this particular moment I can't do that.

"A simple call to the IDF": I don't call the army, I call a particular office in the army. What is its number? Where is it located? It is Passover now and most offices are closed. I did the homework I could do from the Internet; in the meanwhile, I can't do more than that.

I would gladly pass the editing to someone neutral and more knowledgeable than me now who could carry on editing impartially - but currently, I see no such person. Until one arrives (or I become one), I try to keep the article as fair as possible to both sides, considering their arguments.

By the way, could you please position the Yerushalmi report at a web server so that the article could link to it (considering copyright issues)? --Uriyan

I am endeavouring to obtain the name and phone number of someone you can contact in your efforts to initiate your research for the article you wrote. If I am successful I will post that information here.

The Yerushalmi Report (along with a lot of other information regarding the attack on our ship and subsequent cover-up) is available through our website at http://www.ussliberty.com -- Jmeadors

Well, first of all thank you for putting the material on your web site, could you say in what section exactly it can be found?

Secondly, it seems to me that it's better to discuss this article starting with what it is missing (as it is now) and then repairing/complementing it with research, not the other way around. Which parts, do you think, is the article missing? --Uriyan

The url for the Yerushalmi Report is http://www.ussliberty.org/excuse.txt

In that file there is a reference to a US State Department Legal Advisor's report. The url of that report is http://www.ussliberty.org/salans.txt

As to what to do with your article, I would recommend putting any further changes to the report on hiatus pending further research. You might even make a note on the article to that effect.

Once you have accumulated and closely scrutinized/analyzed a sufficient number of source documents, writing the article would be quite easy since your review of the documents would render you conversant in the various accounts that are floating around.

I have been in occasional email contact with Michael Oren (author of the New Republic article you include in your "See Also" section). I have asked Michael if he could provide the name(s) of people in the IDF you could contact to pursue your research.

Another contact you might make is with the newspaper correspondents or other media who report on IDF activities. They undoubtedly have their contacts/sources as well.

Clearly this will take time -- perhaps months -- to complete.

Please don't get overwhelmed.

After your initial contacts, most of your time will be spent on waiting for things to unfold. Then on following-up on questions you have as a result of your analysis of what has been provided.

I want to make it clear from the outset that should you decide to undertake the research I am describing that it helps us (Liberty survivors) in our efforts to ensure the actions before, during and after the attack are investigated, researched and reported as completely and as objectively as possible. -- Jmeadors

Just received email from Michael Oren with info on whom to contact at the IDF to pursue research on the USS Liberty.

He tells me, "contact Capt. Michal Yizraeli at 03-6942022. She's the officer in charge of such things at the Air Force History Branch. At the IDF History Department, there's Col. Shaul Shai at 03-569-3227." -- Jmeadors

and most Arabs

Tell me, why should anyone care what the Arabs think about the attack? It is not known of any Arab observers on the scene; in any other respect, the attack is solely a bilateral affair of Israel and the United States. Moreover, during the years the Arab media has supported a number of rather incredible theories (e.g. Protocols of the Elders of Zion), with the sole purpose of upsetting Israel. In fact, their vehement support of the "deliberate attack" theory only decreases its authenticity. --Uriyan

To Hefaistos: the USS Liberty was attacked only several hundred meters inside international waters (the Naval Court hearing states, for instance, that the Liberty had a clear view of the El-Arish mosque minarette). Moreover, the absence of ID marks on Israeli aircraft was never proven. As these aircraft were jets (moving quickly and having a large turn radius), I find it quite doubtful that either the presence or the absence of marks could be verified by anyone staying on board. Finally, I'm not sure that most crew members of the USS Liberty support the "deliberate attack" theory - I don't have much info so far, but all I managed to find so far is a site run by J. Meadors and J. Ennes, which does not even contain a guestbook. --Uriyan

Been spending a few minutes reading the Liberty article.

Notice it claims there were only two torpedoes fired from the Israeli torpedo boats.

The Israelis tell us they fired five. I believe it was in their 1982 History Department report that was prepared as a direct result of the publication of Jim Ennes' book Assault on the Liberty.

To address one point Uriyan raised in his post immediately preceeding this, every known USS Liberty survivor supports the position of the USS Liberty Veterans Association regarding the deliberateness of the attack (indeed, as voting members of the LVA they are the source of the position).

Perhaps he should modify his version of the account to reflect those facts. -- Jmeadors

First of all, my name is Uri.

Secondly, as far as I understand, the Liberty had only one hole shown here. If you claim five torpedos were fired then you've got to conclude that either the Israeli Navy was horrendously incompetent or that it didn't want them to hit the Liberty - and both points contradict what you're trying to prove.

Thirdly, while I've not seen a list of members or a guestbook at the site, I'll take your word for it and update the page accordingly.

Finally, I didn't quite understand what you meant by "let's not forget their use of helo-borne assault troops". --Uri

Shortly after the air attack helicopters appeared on the scene. One hovered very close to the port wing of the bridge where I was standing at the time. I clearly saw troops in the door in battle dress with what appeared to be automatic weapons at the ready. Talking to other Liberty survivors over the years reveals that others witnessed the same.

I am not the one claiming 5 torpedoes were fired. That claim is made in the IDF 1982 History Department Report. How that fact reflects upon the professionalism of the MTB personnel is for the reader to decide.

Since you are interested in researching the USS Liberty could you contact the IDF and ask that they release to you a complete set of the gunsight photos their aircraft took? In their 1982 version they included a couple of photos clearly selected to support their position. A review of all of the photos may reveal something else.

Warmest regards,

Joe Meadors [email protected] -- Jmeadors

Uri,

I notice you posted the dimensions and other specifics of the Liberty.

Could you post the same information for the el Quseir as well? I'm sure readers would find that information interesting and useful.

Also, for those of us who live in countries that have not yet moved to the metric system could you post the statistics in feet and inches as well?

Warmest regards,

Joe Meadors
[email protected]
Jmeadors 14:51 Oct 29, 2002 (UTC)

Joe,

First of all I'd like to remark that I do not currently engage in research regarding the USS Liberty, nor do I plan it for the nearest future. I do not fully dismiss that opportunity in the long run, however.

As to the subject:

As to the number of torpedos: it does sound very odd to me - the fact that only 1 out of 5 hit can't be explained by plain incompetence, particularly considering the ship's speed. So I can only persume that the report is wrong in that point. By the way, I couldn't locate in the Internet any info regarding the type of the boats or the torpedos.
This is the first time I've heard about the claim about helicopters. Judging by what you write, these are not the helicopters that brought the American attaché to the scene, and are mentioned in the Navy Court hearing. In what direction have they flown? At what time? (by the way, I'm yet to see a coherent chronology of the event). Is it the same helicopter as seen here? Also, it seems to me that most units that could have been landed from helicopters at the time have been verifiably engaged elsewhere. As I'm not an expert in IDF's order of battle in 1967, I can't be more specific.
It was not me who posted the details about USS Liberty's size. If you think the information about El-Quseir is relevant, feel free to add it. However, in that case one will also have to discuss to what extent the pilots could have measured that size. This seems to me like a very moot point, which would only lengthen the article without actually providing data in either way.

--Uri

Will whoever wrote the claim that "It is accepted by the majority of historians world-wide that these claims constitute a conspiracy theory" please cite your source.

Warmest regards,

Joe Meadors
[email protected]
Jmeadors 23:00 Oct 30, 2002 (UTC)

Would the person who posted the following please provide your source authority to support what was posted?

"Call for ID: Israel claims to have called the ship on radio several times without receiving an answer while the Americans deny ever receiving a call for identification."

Warmest regards,

Joe Meadors
[email protected]
Jmeadors 15:06 Oct 31, 2002 (UTC)

This is an open request to the person who wrote:

"ten reports by the United States, have studied the incident"

or to anyone who subscribes to that position.

Were any of the above referenced reports prepared as a result of an investigation of the attack itself?

Were any of the reports based upon original evidence or just a rehash of already existing evidence?

Which USS Liberty survivors testified before the groups or organizations who collected evidence and testimony during the collection and investigation phase of their inquiry?

Lastly, have you actually read the reports themselves or are you relying upon what others have claimed was the subject matter of and included in the reports?

Warmest regards,

Joe Meadors
[email protected]
Jmeadors 18:08 Oct 31, 2002 (UTC)

Joe,

You could save space by asking all questions at once. Also, I must wonder why you write "open requests". We're not having a debate here. We're writing an article. If you have opinions you feel you could add, do so, just make sure you prefix it with "USS Liberty's survivors claim that...".

As to the historians: most (serious) historical books devoted to the Six-Days War safely list the attack on the USS Liberty as an accident, and elaborate no further. There are only several books that dispute this position; of them, most are not proffessional research-grade. I think this would qualify as a majority.
Call for ID: It is listed in numerous sources, e.g. the Yerushalmi Report.
Ten reports: your opinion that they're were not thorough, partial, politically dictated etc. is presented. If you feel the information is sufficiently important, add it to the article - but also remember that the article gets harder to read as it grows in size.

As to your editing

If you have something to add, add it. Don't write "comments".
The phrase "although there can be no certainty even as to that." meant the aircraft ID, not the napalm.
The question of the markings is disputed. Please be so kind as to treat it like that. The same goes to the rest of the disputed incidents.
The article provides the reader with ample clues to figure out the undisputed fact that Liberty was a horrible place to be in in the afternoon hours of June 8th. However, this is not the main subject of the article.
The existence of 3 Israeli reports is not under doubt, I hope.
I integrated some of your comments into the text.

Sincerely yours, Uri

[Clarification: I never sent "AA" to the torpedo boats as they approached the ship. A number of Israeli reports claim that "AA" means "identify yourself." It does not. Quite the contrary, the ship initiating the signal would be required to transmit her visual call sign first once visual communications had been established. Jmeadors 15:01 Oct 31, 2002 (UTC)]

[Clarification: In their 1982 Report the IDF History Department claims the attacking aircraft performed a series of low and slow identification runs over the Liberty immediately prior to commencing their attack. They claim that some of those flights were directly over the ship at an altitude of 500 feet. Proffered testimony of USS Liberty crewmen who were topside at the time (including myself) claim that no such identification runs were made at any time by the attacking aircraft. Indeed, should the US government ever deem it appropriate to actually investigate the attack their testimony will be that when the attacking aircraft arrived on the scene they flew very low up the starboard side of the Liberty and turned left to travel across the bow of the ship. When the aircraft arrived almost dead ahead of the ship they turned sharply left and commenced their straffing runs. I was on the Signal Bridge at the time this was happening. Jmeadors 17:23 Oct 31, 2002 (UTC)]

[Clarification: According to the Office of the US Navy Judge Advocate General the USNavy's Court of Inquiry did not investigate the attack so inclusion of the report of that inquiry in a list of reports allegedly into the attack is inappropriate. Jmeadors 17:42 Oct 31, 2002 (UTC)]

[Clarification: It is not "some" who claim that Lloyd Painter's testimony has been removed from the official record -- it is Lloyd himself. He has told the story many times and has asked the USNavy why his testimony was removed. No reason has been forthcoming. Jmeadors 17:51 Oct 31, 2002 (UTC)]

[Clarification: The paragraph above implies the Liberty had been steaming west from Israel for the 24 hours immediately preceding the attack. Not so. We had been steaming in a southwesterly direction since about 9am and had not gotten closer than about 25 miles to the coast of Israel. When attacked we were some 77 miles from Ashdod. Jmeadors 20:46 Oct 31, 2002 (UTC)]

Joe, please be so kind as not to take over the article. In particular, you could separate the existence of 13 documents and your criticism regarding them. Both are legitimate within the article, but not within the same paragraph.

Also, I remove this:

"There is a rare extract from a radio exchange between air control and Israeli pilots on the fourth day of the Six Day War, showing that the Israelis did realize that the ship they were bombing was the American USS Liberty, but still went on to attack it."

That's simply hearsay, which can't be included in a reasonable article. If anyone with a copy of the book could type in the intercept (in the article, with a discussion following and not post scriptum), that would be appreciated.

Why is there controversy in the first place: Number one on the list of things controversal about the USS Liberty is why is the attack controversial in the first place? If the attack has been the subject of some 10 US investigations why are there any questions remaining outstanding at all? Surely all of the items listed here are very basic and would be included in even a rudimentary investigation. Do you think, perhaps, if someone were to actually read the reports they claim were of the attack would find out that they weren't investigations of the attack at all?

That's a very flawed argument. There are numerous heavily disputed issues known to humanity: the existence of aliens, who killed JFK, why in general history went this way and not other. The existence of contradicting evidence does not indicate malice. --Uri

Uri,

While I'm not acknowledging for a minute that you are in a position to make any rules or demands as to what is or is not posted in the article (because you're not) I took the liberty of applying your "no heresay" rule and deleted all references to the unsubstanted and unprovable claim that there were 10 US government investigations of the attack on the USS Liberty.

Warmest regards,

Joe

Joe,

I'm less than delighted that this discussion has developed into a personal vendetta. If anything, it testifies to your own disadvantage. Is silencing your opponents your way of proving your case? Are you omniscient? Has it ever occured to you that your anger prevents you from seeing some things? Do you understand that this forum is not your personal soapbox?

As to the 10 committees of investigation: you yourself have named them. Denying their existence is ludicrous and childish. Does your universe exist only from the thing that you approve of? Do things that you don't like disappear magically?

Joe,

What you did stands against community standards. It was not what you wrote, but how. I think it cannot persist. Someone has to keep the article balanced.

I call upon all administrators visiting this page to lock the it from being edited, until a more comprehensive solution is reached. I would appreciate it being reverted to the version before Joe's last batch of "edits" which amount to vandalizm, although it could wait. I'm waiting to hear your opinion about this situation.

Sincerely yours,

--Uri

Uri,

No one is disputing the existence of the reports to which you refer.

What is in dispute is the subject of the investigations that support those reports.

Some claim they were investigations of the attack on the USS Liberty yet when asked to prove their position they are unable or unwilling to do so.

You are apparently a member of that camp.

You have obviously not taken the time to read the testimony and evidence that supports those reports. I -- and many others -- have. They are not investigations of the attack on the USS Liberty. The United States Navy Judge Advocate General has even gone to the extent of publicly stating that the USNavy Court of Inquiry that they conducted did not include an investigation of the attack in their inquiry.

I posted a note in the article to that effect and you removed it. For whatever reason you don't want readers of the article to know that fact.

It is even our position that the Yerushalmi Report is merely a work of fiction which is not supported by any testimony or evidence. Have you had occasion to read the evidence and testimony that supports the Yerushalmi Report. I think not. Same with the IDF History Department's 1982 Report. Show us the evidence and testimony that report is based upon. I think you will find there is none.

You admit you know very little about the attack on the USS Liberty yet you continue to present the Israeli side as fact while anything I attempt to post is changed to state that I am the only one claiming it or that what I post is merely "allegations" or are things that I claim to be true.

I've been researching the USS Liberty attack for over 20 years. I'm in daily contact with other survivors who have done more research than I.

Yet, rather than take advantage of the massive amounts of first hand accounts and first hand research at your disposal, you take issue with anything I do in an attempt to more clearly and correctly reflect what happened to us on that day.

It is obvious you are biased toward telling the Israeli version of events. I don't have a problem with that as long as you clearly identify it as such. What I do have a problem with is your demanding that we, survivors, tacitly agree with what you claim happened to us on that day when in many instances it bears no resemblance to the truth.

And please don't for a minute think that I am writing out of anger or rage. That went by the board many many years ago. I simply want an article in Wikipedia to reflect what happened to us on June 8, 1967. Not some biased, whitewashed article that it appears you are interested in producing.

And, yes. If you continue to present biased, slanted information I will do everything I can do to ensure the information presented is changed in such a way to more clearly reflect the truth of what happened.

Warmest regards,

Joe

Joe,

I've copied your mesage so I might answer it point-by-point.

No one is disputing the existence of the reports to which you refer.

It was actually you that mentioned them first

What is in dispute is the subject of the investigations that support those reports.

Some claim they were investigations of the attack on the USS Liberty yet when asked to prove their position they are unable or unwilling to do so.

Again, it was you who claimed those were reports about the USS Liberty. Or were they discussing the implications of the Vietnam war? If I was misled, I was misled by you.

You are apparently a member of that camp.

The reports that I've read clearly amount to investigations. No, not full investigations. Yes, they provide important facts and quotes to reach a certain conclusion.

You have obviously not taken the time to read the testimony and evidence that supports those reports. I -- and many others -- have. They are not investigations of the attack on the USS Liberty. The United States Navy Judge Advocate General has even gone to the extent of publicly stating that the USNavy Court of Inquiry that they conducted did not include an investigation of the attack in their inquiry.

The Navy Court went to great length to investigate the actions of the ship, and of the Israeli forces, as observed by the ship. Whether it was all true or a coverup is a separate debate. It certainly does have a very clear bottom line.

I posted a note in the article to that effect and you removed it. For whatever reason you don't want readers of the article to know that fact.

I actually did place a note that specifies what the Court was about. Have you not noticed it?

It is even our position that the Yerushalmi Report is merely a work of fiction which is not supported by any testimony or evidence. Have you had occasion to read the evidence and testimony that supports the Yerushalmi Report. I think not. Same with the IDF History Department's 1982 Report. Show us the evidence and testimony that report is based upon. I think you will find there is none.

I have read the Yerushalmi report (which contains statements by participants), as well as other pieces of evidence (yes, evidence. As you might imagine IDF veterans leave notes from time to time, which mention, inter alia, the Liberty incident).

You admit you know very little about the attack on the USS Liberty yet you continue to present the Israeli side as fact while anything I attempt to post is changed to state that I am the only one claiming it or that what I post is merely "allegations" or are things that I claim to be true.

I do not present the Israeli side as fact. If you notice, most points of controversy have clear Israel/US separation; the rest is grounded to (relatively) undisputed facts.

I've been researching the USS Liberty attack for over 20 years. I'm in daily contact with other survivors who have done more research than I.

I find one thing queer in the line you're trying to pass along: how come you haven't bothered to look up the Israeli side of things? Obviously if you were so concerned with the truth (as opposed to your perception of it), you would have bothered to find some information about the IDF's part (beyond the reports! serious investigation begins, rather than ends, with them). Why didn't you put together the information that is available through open sources. For instance, it is definitely within your grasp to name the unit that could have been landed on the Liberty via helicopters. Yet you have not done it, to this date.

Yet, rather than take advantage of the massive amounts of first hand accounts and first hand research at your disposal, you take issue with anything I do in an attempt to more clearly and correctly reflect what happened to us on that day.

Your writing has never been a coherent historical text. Had it occured to you that quoting from the cover of a book (regarding the airplane communications) is not good evidence? Had it occured to you that your evidence is at times contradictory (example: you spoke of international frequency jamming, but the site of another survivor claims that people in Italy have heard the radio broadcasts of the Liberty)? Did you even mention the standard armament of an Israeli torpedo boat - which is a crucial piece of knowledge, yet nobody on the Internet has bothered to display it? Why do you insist upon claiming that the existence of controversy is anyhow a proof of the Israeli malice?

It is obvious you are biased toward telling the Israeli version of events. I don't have a problem with that as long as you clearly identify it as such. What I do have a problem with is your demanding that we, survivors, tacitly agree with what you claim happened to us on that day when in many instances it bears no resemblance to the truth.

Of course I am biased, to a certain extent, but I have made no such demand. I ask for only two things, and two things alone: that you don't declare your interpretation of the events as the only possible view, and that you don't use fallacious arguments.

And please don't for a minute think that I am writing out of anger or rage. That went by the board many many years ago. I simply want an article in Wikipedia to reflect what happened to us on June 8, 1967. Not some biased, whitewashed article that it appears you are interested in producing.

And what happened on June 8, 1967? The ship of "you, survivors" - as you yourself write! - was burnt and cannon-strafed and torpedoed and machine-gunned but can you honestly say that you know the whole truth? Was it written on the bullets that they were sent in malice? Do you really allow for the benefit of doubt?

And, yes. If you continue to present biased, slanted information I will do everything I can do to ensure the information presented is changed in such a way to more clearly reflect the truth of what happened.

Are you sure you know that truth? --Uri

Uri,

It was actually you that mentioned them first

Again, it was you who claimed those were reports about the USS Liberty.

When I arrived on the scene I noted that in the USS Liberty article reference was made to the reports but there wasn't a list provided. Since I had a list of the Reports being discussed I provided them. To NOT provide the list when I had access to it would have been improper since this is an article in an Encyclopedia.

It is not necessary for me to agree with the information I provide else I would not have provided the hyperlinks to Capt. A. Jay Cristol's book which gives people the opportunity of purchasing a copy of his work for themselves. NOT to provide that link when I had it readily available would be doing a disservice to the readers of the article.

The reports that I've read clearly amount to investigations.

Nobody is disputing the fact that they amount to investigations. What they are NOT is investigations of the attack on the USS Liberty. Merely mentioning the attack on the USS Liberty in passing does not make them investigations of the attack itself.

The Navy Court went to great length to investigate the actions of the ship, and of the Israeli forces, as observed by the ship.

Perhaps you are unaware of a letter from the Office of the USNavy Judge Advocate General which states quite clearly that that is not the case.

That letter (dated September 1, 1989 to Senator Alan Cranston stated, "The Navy Court of Inquiry's investigation focused on the U.S. military communication problems prior to the attack and the heroic efforts of LIBERTY's crew in controlling damage during the aftermath."

They did NOT investigate the attack.

I have read the Yerushalmi report

As have I.

What I have NOT been able to read is the evidence and testimony used in the preparation of that report.

Have you?

I have also read the IDF History Department's 1982 Report which was prepared as a direct result of the publication of "Assault on the Liberty" which takes the very same evidence and testimony that is allegedly the basis for the Yerushalmi Report and comes up with a different result.

how come you haven't bothered to look up the Israeli side of things?

I haven't? I posted the name and phone number of an IDF spokesperson with a request that you call the lady and ask for information from the IDF. If you will look above this message in the TALK section of the USS Liberty article you will find the message to which I refer.

For instance, it is definitely within your grasp to name the unit that could have been landed on the Liberty via helicopters.

I haven't provided that information because I don't know it. Perhaps a call by you to the IDF spokesperson would result in their providing that information to you.

While you have them on the phone could you ask that they provide to you a copy of the evidence and testimony that support the Yerushalmi Report and the 1982 IDF History Department Report?

Would you also ask that they provide you with a complete set of gunsight photos? In the 1982 version they included a couple of photos that were apparently carefully selected to support their position.

And, would you ask that they provide you with a complete set of audio tapes of the pilots conversations?

We've been trying to get copies of all of this information literally for decades but for reasons as yet unexplained the Israeli Defense Forces are unwilling to release it to us.

Since I provided the name and phone number of the IDF spokesperson to which to make the request some time ago I was hoping that someone (you?) would have had the time to give her a call. Apparently not.

you spoke of international frequency jamming, but the site of another survivor claims that people in Italy have heard the radio broadcasts of the Liberty

Actually the jamming was on both USNavy tactical and international maritime distress frequencies. (I'll let readers opine for themselves why you left out the part about USNavy Tactical Frequencies).

That jamming was witnessed by USS Liberty radiomen including Rocky Sturman.

If you were familiar with the Liberty story you would know that we got through to the Sixth Fleet by using an antenna that had been taken out of service prior to the attack and on a frequency that was little used.

I understand the radio broadcasts you refer to might have been the conversations between the pilots and their base which we understand were heard by US listening posts in Germany and Morrocco. Not sure about any stations in Italy but I'll check.

but can you honestly say that you know the whole truth

Heavens No!

But one would think that had the attack been investated so many times that all of the questions would have been answered.

But it wasn't.

And they haven't

That's why we're actively advocating for a complete and comprehensive public Congressional investigation of the attack.

Was it written on the bullets that they were sent in malice?

Well, they sure weren't sent as a love token.

Thanks for taking the time to write.

Hopefully someone's curiousity will be tweaked enough to make that call to the IDF spokesperson.

Warmest regards,

Joe

Joe,

When I arrived on the scene I noted that in the USS Liberty article reference was made to the reports but there wasn't a list provided. Since I had a list of the Reports being discussed I provided them. To NOT provide the list when I had access to it would have been improper since this is an article in an Encyclopedia.

What I'm saying is that you were the person to name them as reports regarding the USS Liberty. The wording was basically yours, from day one.

It is not necessary for me to agree with the information I provide else I would not have provided the hyperlinks to Capt. A. Jay Cristol's book which gives people the opportunity of purchasing a copy of his work for themselves. NOT to provide that link when I had it readily available would be doing a disservice to the readers of the article.

It was me who had added the link to the article.

Nobody is disputing the fact that they amount to investigations. What they are NOT is investigations of the attack on the USS Liberty. Merely mentioning the attack on the USS Liberty in passing does not make them investigations of the attack itself.

They reach a bottom line or do they not? If they mention USS Liberty in passing (as many books about the Six-Day War at large do) they're not about it. If they devote pages to bringing up or reconsidering evidence, they can and should be considered investigation.

They did NOT investigate the attack.

We've been trying to get copies of all of this information literally for decades but for reasons as yet unexplained the Israeli Defense Forces are unwilling to release it to us.

I find it peculiar that you have been looking this information, and yet haven't bothered to look up the open sources that have been piling up for years now. Let's persume you don't have access to the American recordings of communications between the Israeli jets and their bases (why don't they release it as well? And also, ask them for some Vietnam war air photos - they can't hurt anyone now!). Fine. But it was definitely within your grasp to look up myriads of other details, and build a solid theory. But in fact, your additions to the article (and your site, I might add) barely speak about the circumstances of the case. They focus so exclusively on the attack that a casual reader might notice think wasn't a war going on around that place.

Actually the jamming was on both USNavy tactical and international maritime distress frequencies. (I'll let readers opine for themselves why you left out the part about USNavy Tactical Frequencies).

I didn't specify which frequencies were jammed. But did they, or did they not, hear it in Italy?

That jamming was witnessed by USS Liberty radiomen including Rocky Sturman.

If you were familiar with the Liberty story you would know that we got through to the Sixth Fleet by using an antenna that had been taken out of service prior to the attack and on a frequency that was little used.

I understand the radio broadcasts you refer to might have been the conversations between the pilots and their base which we understand were heard by US listening posts in Germany and Morrocco. Not sure about any stations in Italy but I'll check.

I believe I find this info on a crewman's site, possibly belonging to Rocky Sturman himself. And the site said that it was USS Liberty calling the boats, not the request for assistance.

but can you honestly say that you know the whole truth

Heavens No!

Yet you sound as if you had reached a conclusion. And yet, you have not - admittedly! - looked for (and accordingly, found) much significant evidence about the most important part of your accusation - the Israeli authorities' alleged premeditation of the strike. Looking at ussliberty.com - you certainly speak a lot about statesman A's reaction, statesman B's complicity, participant C's "excuse" - but it fails to discuss almost completely the events themselves. It doesn't include a chronology, with various witness testimonies, vessel profiles; it doesn't mention logs of meetings between Israeli officials - information open for decades now.

But one would think that had the attack been investated so many times that all of the questions would have been answered.

Has JFK's death been deciphered of late? You have as many versions of a historical event as the number of people participating in it.

Well, they sure weren't sent as a love token.

Friendly bullets hurt as much as hostile ones.

Joe,

I am not presently going to call the IDF History department. I have neither the time nor the skills to do so currently. As I wrote above, I do not reject this opportunity entirely for the future. If I come accross any relevant information (and considering the fact that Middle Eastern history is a hobby of mine, this is quite possible), I will post it to the article.

Could you please answer my points of criticism in my previous letter? They're important for continuing work on the article. In particular, I can find no imaginable way to treat a book's cover as worthwhile historical evidence.

Finally, I wanted to ask you: are you not upset by the fact that the memory of USS Liberty is so often abused in anti-Semitic circles? --Uri

Uri,

Let me know if I understand the situation and your position correctly.

You either originated the USS Liberty article on Wikipedia or were modifying it within about 90 minutes of its appearance in the Wikipedia Encyclopedia knowing full well that the preparation of such an article that would be in concert with Wikipedia guidelines would require a considerable amount of time and effort to properly research and document the article.

You live virtually -- perhaps literally -- in the shadow of what could very well be the largest and best repository of USS Liberty information in the world.

The information at that source could very well prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Israeli version is correct.

That source could be willing to release to you copies of all of the audiotapes of the pilots conversations proving that they WERE confused as to the correct identification of the ship they were attacking and that the attacking aircraft conducted a series of low and slow circuits of the ship with the specific purpose of identification immediately prior to their commencing the attack.

That source could be willing to release to you copies of all of the gunsight photos confirming their claim that no flag was flying.

That source could be willing to release to you audiotapes of the conversations of the MTB personnel proving that they did not deliberately machine gun our life rafts in the water and that they offered assistance immediately upon termination of hostilities rather than leaving the scene and returning some 90 minutes later with an offer of assistance.

That source could be willing to release to you the evidence and testimony that supports the claims made in the Preliminary Inquiry 1/67 (Yerushalmi Report) as well as the IDF History Department's 1982 Report.

But you aren't going to call them because in the past year since you've been working on the article you haven't found the time to do so or you haven't had a chance to find out how to do it?

It's actually very simple.

All you have to do is call the spokesperson whose name and number I provided and tell them what information you are seeking. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to let you know what form that request must be in.

What's that take? Five minutes if you speak slowly.

What's the upside?

You get to be the one who proves to the world once and for all that we're just a bunch of liars.

What's the downside?

You get to be the one who proves to the world that the IDF is.

Willing to take that chance?

We are.

Have been from the beginning.

Are you?

Warmest regards,

Joe Meadors
Vice President
USS Liberty Veterans Association
[email protected]
Jmeadors 17:25 Nov 5, 2002 (UTC)

Joe,

I think you have a severe misunderstanding of my part in the process of editing the article. Much of my work on it was aimed at providing counter-points to your statements, so to prevent the article from becoming the horrendously biased thing that you have wanted to install from day one.

I consider the question of whether I'll carry out independent research regarding the USS Liberty to be separate from the editing Wikipedia article. Furthermore, it not correlated in any way with my numerous complaints regarding what you were doing to the article. By the way, would you mind address them?

There's a text regarding the Liberty in the IDF Encyclopedia: Navy (it is perhaps based on the 1982 History Department work, although I'm not sure). It also provides a list of features by which the Liberty could have been confused with the El-Quseir, as well a narrative by Micha Limor (with which, I suspect you might be acquainted). I intend to include these details in the article.

Sincerely yours,

--Uri

Well, I read a bit and added a brief summary. I tried hard not to take sides but just say that A said X, B said Y, and C said Z. However, I might be biased because I read the statement by Admiral Moorer [1] which sides with the position of Joe Meadors. Moorer has links to my own church, the Unification Church -- which inspired or indirectly sponsored some conservative or right-wing organizations Moorer was in -- and if I were a judge I would probably have to recuse myself. --Ed Poor 21:25 Nov 5, 2002 (UTC)

The most common explanation for the attack was a desire to prevent the U.S. to gain information about Israel's attack on the Golan Heights, which President Johnson opposed. It is accepted by the majority of historians world-wide that this is an open issue. A more detailed discussion follows.

First of all, the majority of historians world-wide agree that the USS Liberty attack was an accident. Secondly, it has been resolved in 1997 (opening of archive documents) that Israel notified the United States about its plans prior to the attack, not even mentioning the impossibility of covering up such an event from the enormous effort the American intelligence must have invested into studying the war. I reverted the old version. --Uri

the majority of historians world-wide agree that the USS Liberty attack was an accident

Quite a sweeping statement.

Can you substantiate that?

FYI, I have emailed Michael Oren to find out if he has someone in his circle of friends who would be willing to contact the IDF on our behalf.

Warmest regards,

Joe Meadors
Jmeadors 18:11 Nov 16, 2002 (UTC)

Joe,

You could find an explanation to this statement above on this discussion page.

You still haven't addressed my remarks, and the article makes statements (or omissions) which, in my opinion, sound very strange to the impartial reader. Do you consider book covers a legitimate historical source? Also, I find the article lacking in the sense that it doesn't even discuss the 10 American reports, several of which have "the attack was accidential" written in their "conclusions" section. I'd like to discuss this issue before I make any changes to the article.

Sincerely yours,

Uri

Uri,

Do you consider book covers a legitimate historical source?

Depending upon its content perhaps a reflection of a legitimate historical source but not the source itself.

I'd like to discuss this issue before I make any changes to the article.

Do you have a copy of or have you read the reports?

I'd like to discuss the contents of the Yerushalmi Report (Preliminary Inquiry 1/67) but feel I cannot since to date I have been unable to obtain the documents and testimony upon which that report is based. All I can do is discuss the Report based upon facts I know to be true.

I'd like to make yet another open plea to anyone reading this message to contact the IDF with a request that they release the information that supports the Yerushalmi Report.

Warmest regards,

Joe
Jmeadors 14:28 Nov 22, 2002 (UTC)

What with the renewed interest in the attack on the USS Liberty as a result of Jay Cristol's recent presentations at the US Navy Museum and the Middle East Institute in Washington, DC, coupled with a settling down of my professional life I've decided to reactivate the USS Liberty email discussion list being hosted by the folks at St. John's University in New York.

To read the archives, subscribe or modify your subscription you can visit http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/uss_liberty.html

You can also subscribe via email by sending an email message to [email protected] with SUBSCRIBE USS_LIBERTY <Your Name> as the text of the message.

If you have any problems, please don't hesitate to email me at [email protected]

Warmest regards,

Joe Meadors
Jmeadors 15:37 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC)

Request to Split the Page

What objections would y'all have to my splitting this page into two separate articles -- USS Liberty (AGTR-5), which would have the facts about the vessel herself (7725 tons, originally the cargo ship Simmons Victory, and so on), and Israeli Attack on USS Liberty, which would contain all the discussion and controversy regarding the events of June 8, 1967? I promise I won't alter the contents of that latter article -- I'm not qualified to have an opinion. It's currently the afternoon of February 21, 2003 -- if I don't see any vehement protests by March 1, I'll go ahead and split it. --the Epopt

It's a few days after that and it's still not split. I thought about the same thing, though, when I saw the page. The USS Pueblo article raised the same question for me, but there, the capture is more a defining event in the life of the ship, and the article is not that unweildy.

Piling on third thoughts now ... there is a standard format for describing aircraft specs. That might be a better way to tidy up technical information about the ship while keeping it in the context of the ships sea life.

Actually, something about the GER class would be very interesting.

If you do the split, you might want to look at the Navy photo site and find some images of the ship during better days. If you don't maybe I will. These tell the story of the attack well, but there were some of her before the attack that would be better suited for a general article on the ship. Of course that article should have a reference to the attack, which must navigate the same viewpoint controversies as plague this one.

This one at least needs the leads merged - they are practically the same words, and where the words are different, those differences can be described in a separate sentence in the merged lead paragraphs. JRT7 09:41, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

On second thought, Epopt, after having read the entire talk page and page history then having checked in on those active in the debate, I think things are stable enough here to condense what product came from the debate into an article that is readable, is not redundant, is fair to all sides and represents the Liberty as any other ship would be represented. I'm not sure it is the best approach to remove the story of a famous vessel's most famous moment to a side-bar. This was the Liberty's defining moment and, when viewed along with the capture of the Pueblo, a defining incident in the activities of the GES vessels of that era.

In a few days, I plan to work through this and make something readable, coherent and accurate, if you want to wait and see what comes of it.

JRT7 10:31, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I understand that currently there will be no change on the article due to it being disputed. I however, would like to voice my opinion on the chapter "contoversy". I find there is a strong bias in this chapter.

QUOTE:

Several books and a BBC documentary try to prove that USS Liberty was attacked on purpose. They are allegedly backed in this position by at representatives of the US intelligence community. Critics claim that many of them include incorrect assumptions and a fuzzy system of conslusion making. As examples, they bring the claim that the ship was attacked to prevent the U.S. from knowing about the forthcoming attack in the Golan Heights (information already dispatched to the Americans), and applying a quote describing the execution of 5 Palestinian guerillas wearing Egyptian uniforms (an act allowed under rules of war) to "prove" the mass murder of 150 Egyptians.

COMMENT:

The picture until some years back of official reports and publications in general was, as i perceive it, that the Liberty was attacked by accident. Now, some years ago there emerged several books / documentations which concluded otherwise. Alright. What i have to criticise here is, that in the paragraph above this fact ist mentioned in 2.5 lines, the relativisation however takes 6 lines. Another problem i do have: while the books and documentation which present their view, are BOOKS and implying this, someone has worked on them a year or two, and compiled considerable material and spent working time on them, the belittlement of the books is based on claims, which means basically someone has at most written a short article on it. Given the already mentioned line ratio between the two positions, the different weight of the statements simply due to their elaboration makes the already more than unequal ratio even worse.

QUOTE:

Israeli officials and Jewish organizations world-wide have complained that these materials are often used as a pretext for anti-Semitic declarations and acts. They claim that these reviews often do not give Israel the benefit of the doubt, turning this extremely ambiguous history into a circus for Israel-bashing. Meadors and Ennes have denied an anti-Semitic pretext in their work, and express sharp disapproval at the use of the USS Liberty incident in anti-Semitic contexts.

COMMENT:

First of all, lets notice again the ration between the positions which is 4:2.

Now, concerning the accusation of anti-semitism: after 6 million jews died due to a policy of antisemitism fulfilled to its ultimate extent, i would recommend to everyone to use the accusation of anti-semitism only with utmost care. This is not to be taken lightly at all. The mentioning of anti-semitism is very much likely to put the accused in a defensive position, as we all know what anti-semitism resulted in, some 60 years ago. For this is such an heavy accusation, i have to condemn even the mentioning of this accusation here in this article. This holds true even more, as Ennes and Meadors are not even accused of anti-semitism directly - the allegation made towards them is that OTHERS are using the material in an antisemitic way. If so, it is certainly not to account to them, what others are doing with material (and experiences !) they collected.

To put it in the NRA-way: It's not guns who are killing, people do kill.

Finally i would like to bring to you attention, that in the positions depicted here, "Israeli officials" and "Jewish organizations world-wide" are standing against [only] "Meadors and Ennes" - not really a depiction of the reality, as i do believe, that it is certainly not only "Meadors and Ennnes" who take this view.

CHris

Strong objection to the article's statement that Various theories are presented at times as to why they claim that Israel carried out this action; one theory was that Israel was trying to get the U.S. involved in the conflict on Israel's side, by convincing the U.S. that Egypt was the aggressor. It is accepted by the majority of historians world-wide that these claims are unsubstantiated.. The second statement is an opinion masqerading as a fact: no survey of 'historians worldwide' is offered to substantiate the claim that most of them believe that the attack was not deliberate.

(Also, it might be useful to examine the Lavon Affair as a precedent for exactly this sort of attack on US interests by Israel, in order to taint the Egyptians.)

The article should present claims pro and con, with little or no editorialising. The pro and con claims should come from different people to prevent bias.

Jon

As noted above, I'm eyeing this article with some reorganization in mind. I'm refreshing my recollection of sources on the incident. It comes to mind that the allegations that Israel intentionally attacked the ship to block the ships involvement in the war was advanced by at least one author who was documenting US actions that were adverse to Israeli interests.

By the reasoning offered in Secret War Against the Jews, the author suggests NSA employees in the Liberty's radio room were providing specific real time order of battle data to Britian, who was in turn supplying it to Egypt. The book asserts it was not to block American knowledge of taking of the Golan Heights, nor to cover up atrocities, but to stop intelligence leaks that could have cost Israel the war.

The author says Israeli and Egyptian tanks were matched across a line in the Sanai that Israel could hold but could not reinforce. If Egypt could locate and exploit a weakness in that line, they could gain tactical advantage and perhaps advance into Israel.

The author says that the Nixon administration was divided in its support for Israel during the war, and that after Israel stopped radio transmissions from the Liberty, pro-Israel factions led by Henry Kissenger secured some 4,000 TOW missles for Israel that let generals use infantry to reinforce their tank line. Israel's army prevailed. The author asserts machine guns were used to drive sailors below deck before napalm was used to destroy antenna arrays. He suggested the torpedo struck in the vicinity of a radio room.

The Pueblo and Liberty were apparently GES ships shared by the Navy and the NSA. NSA radio operators had boarded the ship a few days or hours before the attack - whether their presence was part of the routine change of command or was a unique response to the war is one of the more salient questions arising from the matter.

The other poorly represented arguments might be those explaining the reaction within Israel. My recollection is the internal investigation came down to who was in the war room mainting boards detailing who was where in proximity to the battle field. There ended up being some debate over a shift change and some exchange of information between shifts, per my recollection.

These notes are posted here in the event anyone else can add more detail.

JRT7 22:28, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I can add more detail. Johnson was President when Liberty and later Pueblo were attacked. I believe Kissinger was still teaching at Havard. The author you quoted was confusing the Yom Kippur War and the Six Day War.

More likely that I have confused the matter in my recollection. That would be from "Secret War Against the Jews" JRT7 07:04, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Pueblo had also been at sea for about a month before the attack. Joe can tell you more, but the NSA radio operators had been on the Liberty the entire time as I understand it. Pueblo as well. Stargoat 17:42, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This is easy enough to research. It was reported omewhere - I thought it was from Joe's book - that two radio operators boarded the ship before the attack. Body of Secrets says both of the ships were shared Navy/NSA assets, operated by each organization alternately from month to month. I've never heard the crews response to either "Body of Secrets" or "Secret War Against..." so maybe it is about time for somebody to flag Joe or some of his colleagues back to this page for some more updates, especially in regard to those sources. JRT7!~

I don't know anything about anything about what's going on here, but I just added Former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff: Israel Deliberately Attacked US Ship to the external links. jengod 21:43, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)

This page should be moved to USS Liberty incident

"Attack" is very much POV. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 16:42, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wow. I've never heard of a ship being incidented before. Stargoat 16:44, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Heh. But in all seriousness, "attack" implies it was deliberate, which is very much in dispute. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 16:47, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That the ship was attacked is beyond doubt. That it was attacked by the Israelis is also beyond doubt. Please move the article back. Mintguy (T) 18:05, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That it was attacked by Israelis is not questioned, but that doesn't make the terminology neutral. "USS Liberty Incident" is how it is commonly referred to. "Israeli attack on USS Liberty" is inflammatory. The new name is more NPOV. Jayjg 18:09, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, so it appears, I just checked before you posted the above. I withdraw the request. Mintguy (T)

The terminology is neutral. The ship was attacked. It's called an attack. What's adding a POV is calling the article an incident. Now put it back. Stargoat 18:51, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Actually, the term for this incident, is, in fact, the "USS Liberty Incident". That is the way it is referred to by historians and in most serious sources. Referring to it as the "Israeli attack on USS Liberty" is inflammatory; one doesn't refer to the Mayagüez incident as the Korean attack on the SS Mayagüez, or the General Sherman Incident as the Korean attack on the General Sherman or the Mukden Incident as the Japanese attack on the Mukden railroad or the Gulf of Sidra incident (1981) as the Libyan attack on US F-14 Tomcats though they are factual as well. Jayjg 19:34, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

How long before we'll have to rename articles to "Iraq incident" and "Vietnam incident" ? - pir 23:14, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Excellent point; Iraq and Vietnam were wars that lasted months or years. Incidents are generally of much briefer duration, usually less than a day. In any event, common usage is and always has been "USS Liberty Incident"; if the common usage for the Vietnam war ever becomes "Vietnam incident" your question might become more relevant. Jayjg 03:01, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Attack" is perfectly NPOV. That the ship was attacked is not in dispute. If one wants to claim the motive for the attack was misguided or accidental, that's an entirely different matter, but the word owes to the objective fact an attack was made, with intent to injure or sink. Nobody pulled any triggers accidentally here. 65.247.35.18 08:29, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

USS Liberty Survivors letter

Why is this letter here? What does it add that is not already in the article? Jayjg 17:00, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Because Meadows was involved in a NPOV with apologists like yourself. Now put the article back. Stargoat 18:48, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps you didn't notice the question I asked. I'll repeat: Why is this letter here? What does it add that is not already in the article?

P.S. I haven't moved anything. Jayjg 19:36, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, regardless of whether it adds anything or not, the actual letter belongs on the talk page, like anything else written in response to an article. If it constitutes a valuable external source, then it could also be added to the list of external links. I do not recall ever seeing a Wikiedia article containing anything like that letter. 217.132.173.201 20:55, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That makes sense to me as well; I also haven't seen anything like it in other articles. The Liberty survivors organization is already linked to in the article, and the head of the organization actually created a fair bit of the information in the article itself. Jayjg 03:03, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Is there anyone who can put forward any valid reason to include this letter in the article? Jayjg 02:52, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Removing it will lead to an edit war. It was also the solution of a previous such problem. It stays. Stargoat 04:23, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Why will removing it lead to an edit war? What previous problem did it solve? I'm looking for a legitimate rationale, not bald assertions. Jayjg 04:27, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read the archives. Stargoat 14:14, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to know the answer to this, too, and I don't know what archives you're talking about. Is there an archive of older items which have been removed from this Talk page? The letter duplicates some information above it in the article, and it does not befit an article to include questions such as "One has to ask why is there controversy in the first place?", so I feel the letter must be removed and any facts from it be integrated into the rest of the article if they're not already present. It would be far better if the veterans association would put this letter on their site so the article could link to it. - Brian Kendig 19:17, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree with every point you have made here, Brian. It appears to have first been inserted on 16:08, 26 Mar 2002 by the anonymous editor 67.209.122.99, who is probably Joe Meadors, and was subsequently expanded by Joe Meadors in October. In addition to not being able to find any Talk: archives for this article, I've read this entire Talk: page more than once and seen no discussion about the inclusion of a letter. As best as I can reconstruct events, Joe wasn't pleased with the articles NPOV presentation, and felt the need to include a special section outlining the "pure" POV of the Veteran's association (including a number of items discussed in the Talk: pages), unadulterated by any NPOV. Jayjg 21:27, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Two POVs, each using parallel structure, is NPOV

Surviving crew members, as well as several Western observers, assert that the attack was premeditated and deliberate: i.e., that Israel knew the ship was American.

Israel maintains, and the US government has formally and publicly accepted, that the incident was entirely due to error: i.e., Israeli forces misidentified the ship at various stages as a Russian intelligence ship providing information to the Arabs, or as an Egyptian freighter.

The structure of these two opening sentences is the same. They are clear and concise, and present both POVs on the incident. It is not NPOV to cast doubts on the Israeli and US government position, even as you are explaining it. This, in fact, was Stargoat's admitted and public intent when he reverted my edits. Jayjg 20:58, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I reverted your POV edits because you chose not understand the facts. There were members of the US government that had doubts as to Israel's intentions. Members of the United States government continue to hold doubts as to what really happened. Doubt should be cast because doubt exists, though Jayjg would like to deny that. Stargoat 04:12, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

My edits (unlike your actions and comments) were in no way POV. The fact that some people hold doubts about the Israeli and US government positions is abundantly clear. In fact, the opening section and indeed the whole article outlines the many doubts that have been cast upon the official version, at great length. To claim that by adding a phrase clarifying the official US government stance I am attempting to "deny" these doubts is a Straw man argument at best, and, quite frankly, ludicrous under the circumstances. Jayjg 04:59, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Context

It seems to me the big piece missing in this article is some kind of context to the whole scenario of sending these poorly armed ships into international waters to intercept electronic transmissions. How many ships were involved, what did they do, why were they necessary, where did they go, what happened to them, how long did the program last? How does this fit in with other sigint gathering programs via airplane or (later) satellite, etc.? What is the overall importance of gathering such data? (It must be awfully important, because a lot of countries spent a lot of time/money/effort/lives gathering it?)

It seems like just a paragraph or two near the beginning and maybe another near the end, perhaps with many links to other articles fleshing out the full picture, would help a lot.

It seems to me that the big story here, very obscured by all the wrangling about various details, is that for a while the U.S. was sending very lightly armed ships to snuggle up as close as technically legal to various hot spots and war zones, and this practice turned out to be very, very dangerous in a variety of ways. And that brings up a couple of big questions: Are the crews of these ships going to get credit for performing what turned out to be the equivalent of dangerous wartime duty? (Certainly one of the things that rankles the crew members and helps to keep this issue alive is that the aftermath of the incident seems to devalue their service and their sacrifice . . . ). And, was the intelligence gathered by this and similar intelligence gathering operations, like intentional airspace violations and flyovers, worth the considerable risk?

The article hits a whole lot of details. How about some big picture?

(Not incidentally, it strikes me that in the big picture may lie a way towards the ultimate resolution of some of the hotly disputed points here. One can dispute whether the attack was deliberate or accidental, but no one can dispute that putting a ship in the situation the Liberty was in, opens it up to considerable possibility of attack, whether deliberate OR accidental. And regardless of what actually did happen, given the nature of the Liberty's assignment in that area, once there was an incident it is pretty much a given that there would be a coverup, cover stories, downplaying of the incident, and so on, on all sides.)

Bhugh 06:08, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fired with order or without?

The testimony says this:

1430 [LOG:] ONE ROUND FIRED BY MACHINE GUN 51. C.O. ORDERED HOLD FIRE. [CAPT. McGonagle:] At this time, I yelled to machine gun 51 to tell him to hold fire. I realized that there was a possibility of the aircraft having been Israeli and the attack had been conducted in error. I wanted to hold fire to see if we could read the signal from the torpedo boat and perhaps avoid additional damage and personnel injuries. The man on machine gun 51 fired a short burst at the boats before he was able to understand what I was attempting to have him do.

Is that what you were referring to? Jayjg 06:46, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

First with order, then order was reversed. Old version did not reflect this.

[CAPT. McGonagle:] It appeared that they were approaching the ship in a torpedo launch attitude, and since I did not have direct communication with gun control or the gun mounts, I told a man from the bridge, whose identity I do not recall, to proceed to mount 51 and take the boats under fire.

Initial version claimed that torpedo attack occurred after engagment by machine gun fire. Actually, Captain perceived torpedo attack, gave orders to defend, then ordered hold fire. Holdfire order was lost. Previous version left out initial apparent attack. Jonsmythe 07:07, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Is noting an appearance of a "torpedo launch attitude" the same thing as perceiving a torpedo attack? Jayjg 07:11, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Obviously, yes. That's why McGonagle gave the initial order to engage the boats with a machine gun. Unless the rules of engagement require him to wait until the torpedoes are in the water. Note very careful use of neutral words perceive and apparent, allowing for element of judgement and interpretation. Jonsmythe 07:19, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Counterpunch article

Why does the first section link to [2]? The article itself makes no attempt to provide a NPOV, and it is only peripherally related to the point it is proportedly proving; that is, that it is the "only attack on a US ship that has never been investigated by Congress." Jayjg 21:41, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Possible inaccuracies

I've removed the Veterans Association letter from the article, and attempted to bring some of the facts it asserts into the rest of the article. However, I've noticed that the article uses imprecise language in several important places, and it's not clear what the facts really are. Here are some of the specific issues I found. If someone could verify these, that'd be great.

The article states that the attacking planes were armed with napalm. The Veterans letter implies that napalm was used by the ships. Which is correct?
Are there any references which specify the number and type of attacking aircraft, or even make a guess at it? The article originally said "a pair of Mirage IIIs and Dassault Mysteres." The letter said "three Mirage aircraft then Mystere aircraft."
The article says that the captain ordered a machine gun to engage the torpedo boats, then he gave the order to hold fire, then the machine guns opened fire. Did they start firing as soon as he gave the first order, or did they wait until after he told them to hold fire?
The letter said "and, let's not forget their use of helo-borne assault troops." Aerial troops are not mentioned at all in the article.
The letter said "The legal counsel to the US Navy Court of Inquiry has said publicly that the Court of Inquiry was a sham." If true, this deserves a reference.
The article says, "As a result of US Florida Judge Jay Cristol lawsuit using the Freedom of Information Act..." Was Jay Cristol the judge in a state lawsuit? Who were the parties in the lawsuit, and what was the issue?