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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Zanoni666 (talk | contribs) at 20:03, 13 June 2006 (→Discussion of addition of inappropriate material + survey). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

"Autobiographical" articles

Just a quick note about WP policies as they apply to this article. An article about an organization or website may use that's organization's website or other self-published sources only as a source for information about itself. All other references must be reliable published sources per WP:RS (e.g. published books). In particular, information about any other organization must have such a reliable published (book) reference, and information from the website of a competing organization may not used for citations in this article. For details, see Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources in articles about themselves. -999 21:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Correcting article with a verifiable and accurate version.

Here are my verifiable sources for the revisions that I’ve made for the HOGD Inc. article.


The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc.

Section 1: “The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn Inc., a non-profit religious foundation established in Florida, USA, by Charles 'Chic' and Tabitha Cicero and Adam Forrest, holds the United States trademark rights for "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn", and are the foremost proponents of the traditional Stella Matutina system.”

Comment on section 1: There are no immediate defamatory, disingenuous, P.O.V. violations in section 1. It is factual up to date information and is common knowledge in the Golden Dawn community, which has never been a matter of dispute. This information can be clearly obtained and verified by consulting both Cicero’s HOGD Inc. web-site, and in a number of Cicero’s books. Therefore, I consider section 1 an accurate assessment of the HOGD Inc., and its founder members.

Verifiable source for section one is: www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/

Section 2: “Cicero and his first wife, Eva, started as an O.T.O. camp, as Cicero was duly initiated into the Minerval grade of the O.T.O. in August of 1978. It was after being given Regardie’s contact details by the former Caliph of the O.T.O., Grady McMurtry, who was friendly with Regardie, that Cicero was introduced to Regardie by Patricia Behman; who was Regardie’s student in 1982. It was from this initial meeting in 1982 that Cicero helped Regardie establish a branch of the Golden Dawn in the United States in the early 1980’s, and it was from this initial meeting that Cicero was in contact with Regardie until his death in 1985.”

Comment on section 2: It is written in print by the Ciceros themselves, that Cicero was directly involved in O.T.O. practises from as early as August 1978 as an initiate of the O.T.O.

In the Ciceros introduction to the third edition of the Middle Pillar by Regardie: ISBN 1-56718-140-6. It is stated in the Endnotes on page XXIV. That Charles “Chic” Cicero was initiated as a “Minerval into the O.T.O. in August of 1978”. This clearly and comprehensively states that Cicero was not only just involved with O.T.O. practises, but initiated into the O.T.O., which is to be a fully operative member, which further implies heavy involvement and commitment to that sole aforementioned organisation. I will reiterate for clarity, that the introduction and endnotes were indeed written by the Ciceros themselves, and states August 1978 as the date of Cicero’s initiation into the O.T.O., at the Minerval degree.

Therein the aforementioned footnote it also explains that a house was bought with the intentions of producing a working Golden Dawn temple, however, although this house had been bought with the sole intentions of it existing as a Golden Dawn temple, and I quote directly from the footnote: “But it also became the site of our O.T.O. temple.” The endnote further states at the time of Cicero’s “Minerval” initiation into the O.T.O., Grady McMurtry, the former Caliph of the O.T.O., walked through the framework of Cicero’s intended site for his Golden Dawn temple. This then establishes through verifiable means that Cicero did start as an O.T.O. temple, camp and initiate before he instigated, and finished the construction of his Golden Dawn temple site. Cicero had already received a “Minerval” initiation of the O.T.O., while evidently the Golden Dawn site was barely under construction as Grady McMurtry, as documented by the Ciceros in the footnote on page XXIV, only witnessed the framework of the Golden Dawn temple.

This information found therein the footnotes of this aforementioned book -contradicts- the points made by the Ciceros in the main body of text in the introduction.

Taken from the cover notes made by the esteemed and highly reputable Llewellyn publications, furthermore a neutral source. A short biography of the Ciceros includes the following information: “Chic was a close friend of Israel Regardie, and helped Regardie resurrect a legitimate branch of the Golden Dawn in the United States in the early 1980’s.” There is no mention here of Cicero’s Golden Dawn temple, or any other for that matter dating to 1977 or even the late 1970’s in any Golden Dawn context whatsoever. The mediator should note that Llewellyn publications were responsible for that direct quote and not Cicero himself, thus it constitutes as a neutral, verifiable, book source.

This short biography by the neutral verifiable source can be found on: “The magicians craft: Creating Magical Tools”, by Chic Cicero and Sandra Tabatha Cicero. ISBN1-56718-142-2. The biography quote made by Llewellyn is on the back cover thereof.

In fact, there is no proof whatsoever that Charles Cicero ever operated a Golden Dawn temple of any sort prior to 1983.

Moreover, Cicero's credibility must be evaluated in light of the 1999 affidavit he gave in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York. While Charles Cicero claimed that he had not received a dishonourable discharge from the U.S. armed services, Ralph Fytton, a former "adept" of the Cicero organisation, provided this conflicting affidavit:

File:FyttonDeposition.pdf
Caption

Moreover, the 1999 affidavit EXECUTED BY CHARLES CICERO HIMSELF, provides further factual information on the credibility of Charles Cicero: it makes it quite clear, as does his web site at http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org that he is - whatever his representations elsewhere- in the business of marketing books and Tarot cards for a profit.

Cicero’s first wife is herein entered into the article so to distinguish between Cicero’s earlier partner Eva Cicero, and his present partner Sandra Tabatha Cicero that he has co-written several books with. This is contained in the article, and should remain so, purely to avoid any confusion between the two.

The references to Cicero’s former partner and to the O.T.O. are not herein arbitrarily entered into article to prejudice the reader. It is indeed, factual and completely verifiable information that Cicero was not only involved with the O.T.O. as early as August of 1978, but an initiate of the O.T.O., and that his present wife at that time was Eva Cicero. These are merely essential verifiable facts as to the history and establishment of Cicero’s Golden Dawn temple, which is relevant to the reader, as biographical background on Cicero. These points are not to be misconstrued though as a prejudice or P.O.V., but verifiable biographical material prior to Cicero’s establishment of a Golden Dawn temple; that is relevant to the article’s background on the Ciceros.

There can be found therein Regardie‘s publication: “The Original Account of the Teachings, Rites and Ceremonies of the Hermetic Order of: The Golden Dawn.” As revealed by Israel Regardie in the sixth edition. ISBN0-87542-663-8. There can be found on page XXII a statement by Behman in her introduction to the sixth edition: “Between 1981 and 1983, I studied magic under Regardie in his home and personal Temple in Sedona, Arizona. Hundreds of hours of personal instruction, stimulating conversation, practical ritual, magic drill, and warm companionship replaced his reticence of discussing magical topics ten years before!”

This is evidence from a verifiable source that Behman was a student of Regardie’s and had a long-standing close relationship with Regardie, at the time Cicero was attempting to get into contact with Regardie. It transpires as common knowledge that it was Behman that first introduced Cicero to Regardie, as she was the Praemonstratrix of the newly resurrected order by Regardie in the United States. Regardie was considered the last living Adept of the traditional Golden Dawn, and as Behman was Regardies’s student she rightfully inherited the sovereignty over the newly founded Golden Dawn temples.

Charles Cicero did not have any contact with any Golden Dawn leader until Behman introduced him to Regardie in 1982. His only "Golden Dawn" involvement if any, before then is that he might- along with tens of thousands of others- have purchased a copy of the Regardie book. Charles Cicero, though he disingenuously states that, he "worked closely" with Regardie, was never initiated into any grade of the Golden Dawn by Regardie (the only Cicero family member initiated by Regardie was his former wife, Eva, who was initiated into 0=0 by Regardie). Cicero has admitted that all his initiations were performed by Larry Epperson (a/k/a Adam Forrest). Regardie, of course, left all his papers to Alan Miller (a/k/a Christopher Hyatt)/Gary Ford's "Israel Regardie Foundation"; and gifted his magical tools to Behman (who gifted them to Griffin).

At the same time, Charles Cicero WAS initiated a Minerval in the O.T.O. by the late Major Grady McMurty.

The two contracts uploaded, which Cicero does not dispute signing, are: contract by David John Griffin and Patricia A. Behman, on behalf of The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (H.O.G.D.), a general partnership, as owners of the "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn" mark in the European Union, and Charles Cicero, on behalf of The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Inc. (H.O.G.D., Inc.), as the then applicant to the U.S. mark, agreeing to share the "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn" mark on a worldwide basis; and the Sale of Partnership Agreement from Behman to Griffin. The one affidavit provided was executed by Charles Cicero in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York in 1999. All three can be retrieved, as a matter of public record, from:

File:Document4-1.pdf
Caption
File:Document4-2.pdf
Caption
File:Document4-3.pdf
Caption

Please find infra: the ECF link at the United States District Court for the Northern District of California. You can find the original court affidavits I used supra in my posting with: The case number which is- C05-432 JSW, and the ruling court for this case is the San Francisco Courthouse. ""https://ecf.cand.uscourts.gov/cand/index.html"" Furthermore, please find again infra a message served to the Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn public forum, at Yahoo groups: ""http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/5095"" The message served to HOGD public forum contains clear and comprehensive instructions on how to download the original court affidavits, from the original public domain source, for people to be able to form their own opinions from the actual original court documents.

The fact that some Golden Dawn practitioners in the Golden Dawn community have a disliking for the O.T.O., or Thelemic practises doesn’t even enter the argument as its completely a point of view, non-verifiable opinion, based on prejudices. it

The verifiable evidence for the autonomous licensees diverging from the traditional curriculum is: “The Original Account of the Teachings, Rites and Ceremonies of the Hermetic Order of: The Golden Dawn.” As revealed by Israel Regardie, in the sixth edition. ISBN0-87542-663-8. There is no mention, whatsoever of “Thelema, Martinism, self-initiation, or astral initiation,” which comprise any part of the original teaching materials in the textbook aforementioned, that reveals the Golden Dawn tradition explicitly, whatsoever. Of most notable of these teachings are: “Z1, the enterer of the threshold” and the “Z3, the symbolism of the admission of the candidate.” Both of which deal explicitly with the subject of initiation on multitudinous levels, and neither mention or imply “astral” initiation or self-initiation in any form. In fact, such methods of self-initiation, and astral initiation are derived from the Golden Dawn tradition, and are subsequent embellishments of certain putatively licensed orders on the GD tradition, that have the approval of Cicero’s HOGD Inc.

Do not delete

Frater, it's poor form to undo the work of other editors. By all means, add to it. But cite as you add. It's extremely rude to remove another editors work like that. Please read WP:POINT, etc. about trying to make a point by taking a dispute with an editor to another article. It's frowned upon. Thought you might want to know... -999 (Talk) 03:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted him twice now. He still is not learning, sadly. Zos 03:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Also, it appears we may have to report Frater FiatLux soon, I've reverted him 3 times. Zos 04:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Will I have to tell him that two editors can gate a single editor? And gangs are certainly not within Wikiquette. Nobody can stop him from adding cited information, but two can stop him from a revert-revert approach to bear fruit. -999 (Talk) 04:04, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is Vandalism by maggot, I’ve reverted back to the verifiable accurate version, maggots cited version in incorrect. Discuss your changes in the talk page like I have. You will all have to prove your sources like I have. I will be reporting you all. You’re all obviously pro Cicero propagandists. Frater FiatLux 04:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Its not "my" version, but its the one that has citations. I'm not pro-anything either. Please report me, it will only prove you wrong. Thank you. Zos 04:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just remember, guys, no personal attacks. -999 (Talk) 04:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also like to ask where you discussed the need to delete cited material on this talk page Frater FiatLux? I'd also like to ask that you address me by the name I sign my comments, some might get confused as to who you are talking to. Thank you. Zos 04:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Your name is Synergistic Maggot and you and 999 have been trying to present a biased and Cicero POV page here showing Cicero's "legal superiority". It's obvious. Please discontinue in this line of editing. Kephera975 01:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We are allowed to present any cited information we wish. as long as it is cite, you should not remove it, but add to it. If you remove other editors material, you will be reverted. If you leave it in, then we can discuss the relevance of your additions. -999 (Talk) 02:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and if your remove this cited material, you will be reverted as well, and we can discuss the relevency of what you previously edited in in order to show HOGD, Inc.'s "legal superiority". Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's neutral point-of-view policy. Kephera975 02:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But if you remove our in the process of adding yours, we may revert. Try adding it without removing our, then we will discuss it's lack of pertinance to this article. -999 (Talk) 15:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

POV Bias

The conflict caused by pro-Cicero users 999, Zos, and Cicero Lisencee JMax555 on the Golden Dawn Tradition, then on the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (Rosicrucian Order of A+O) page has spilled over to this page as well as onto the Heremetic Order of the Golden Dawn main page as well. 999, Zos, and JMax555 are unrelenting in their agenda of promoting a pro-Cicero POV and edit out anything that does not fit in their POV agenda. They refuse to discuss and compromise. Some of us will no longer allow their bullying, however--Zanoni666 01:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What we have here is a miunderstanding. A large one. All we would like, is for you to ADD info to the article, not delete cited material. This is not how you edit articles. Zos 03:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You mean as long as we all toe the JMax-999-Cicero party line and promote only their revisionist vision of GD history, right? Just because material is cited does not make it true. Just because it is verifiable does not make it free of revisionist POV either, as in the scewed revisionist vision of Golden Dawn history being rammed down everyones throats by JMax555, 999, and Zos with their guerrilla edit warfare tactics!--Zanoni666 07:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia does not allow you to remove cited information! Don't you get it? Please see WP:V: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." By verifiable, it means that one can cite a reference and the material is included in the cited reference. It doesn't matter whether you think the infomation is true or not - you MAY NOT REMOVE IT. So STOP. -999 (Talk) 13:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


999, you may not publish shameless advertising for fundraising campaigns on Wikipedia. Pleaes stop immediately. Reference your POV biased version includes: [1] --Zanoni666 14:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So let me get this straight. Zanoni666, you're HermeticScholar? I just checked the history on this talk page and it appears you are using two user names. Im not sure if this is going to help your argument at all but we need to come to a compromise here. Please allow cited material to remain, and if it conflicts, then we can remove the sources that dont add up, and maybe place a few statments in a controversy section in the article. Sound fair? Zos 15:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We can, and have to, cite any page from which we obtained information. We can even add to the article about the lawsuit and directly mention the fundraising campaign - it's information provided by the org on its website. -999 (Talk) 15:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We shall see if this is true. I am presently discussing this with Admin. I would suggest that you guys quit your gang tactics and work together to gain consensus. Be advised that Wikipedia administration is presently considering the possibility of deleting everything about the HOGD due to the way this is presently coming down. Please stop the ramrod tactics and begin to compromise and collaborate instead.--Zanoni666 15:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I quote:

"I'm not sure any of this material is encyclopedic anyway. I'm still thinking about just recommending the whole lot for deletion. Tom Harrison Talk 15:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)"

Still want to keep trying to bring in more people to out-revert us instead of workijng for compromise. Go ahead then and get everything deleted. Is this not warning enough from Admin? Wake up and smell the coffee guys before it is too late. They are aware of all of the pages involved in this as well. --Zanoni666 15:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We've always been willing to compromise. Just don't remove our material when you add yours. Get it? -999 (Talk) 15:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I also have been willing to compromise. And I'm not a member of a gang. I'd like you to stop accusing others of being members of golden dawn also. Thank you. Zos 16:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Tom Harrison would be shot-down in any AFD if he tried nominate this article for deleation. Don't be silly. I think you misunderstand the roll of administrators on wikipedia... they don't have any more say in policy then we (non-admins) have. ---J.S (t|c) 23:17, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion of addition of inappropriate material + survey

In 1978, Chic Cicero was initiated into the Ordo Templi Orientis and began to operate an OTO camp in Columbus, Georgia.[2]

Mr. Cicero has subsequently claimed that he instead operated a temple of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn at that time, although there exists no verifiable evidence of this except Mr. Cicero’s unsubstantiated autobiographical claims (and hearsay based on the repetition of these claims by other authors).

Contrary to popular misunderstanding, Chic Cicero was never initiated by Israel Regardie, but rather by HOGD, Inc. board member, Adam Forrest, and there exists no verifiable evidence that Chic Cicero ever even met Israel Regardie in person on more than two occasions.

  • Again, who says this? Where is the reliable source that makes this claim in print? -999 (Talk) 16:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Omit - not verifiable. -999 (Talk) 16:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agree: Place this statment under a header called "awaiting sources" but only on the talk page. Zos 17:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agree: Who initiated Mr. Cicero should be in an article about Mr. Cicero. It is irrelevant to the nature of the HOGD Inc. - JMax555 22:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Disagree: Israel Regardie is relevent to the formation of the contemporary Golden Dawn, including HOGD, Inc., in a paramount way. There is no verifiable information that Cicero was initiated by Regardie, who is considered the link from the old Stella Matutina to the contemporary American orders. It is relevent historical information. Kephera975 04:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • There was no claim in the article that he was. You can't put criticism of a claim that has not been made. Again, you have to provide a book source - who says this? -999 (Talk) 04:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Omit - lack of verifiable evidence is not proof of anything. You can't just say things like "There is no proof that X has stopped beating his wife, therefore he must be a wifebeater." It's invalid logic. Now if somebody has said this in print, they could then be quoted. However, it would say more about their lack of logic than about the subject, so including it would still be questionable. -Baba Louis 18:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was Cris Monnastre, aka Patricia Behman, who was Israel Regardie’s primary student, having studied magic with him for hundreds of hours.[3] Under Regardie’s tutelage, Behman founded the Osiris Khenti Amenti temple of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn in Los Angeles in 1982, then travelled in with Regardie to Columbus, Georgia to be initiated into the Adeptus Minor grade in a Vault of the Adepti built by the Ciceros. This visit was the first time that the Chic Cicero met Israel Regardie. During the visit, Cris Monnastre and Adam Forrest were initiated by Regardie into the Adeptus Minor grade and Eva Cicero into the Neophyte grade.[4]

  • Again, this is immaterial to the article. Belongs in biographical articles about the subjects of the paragraph. -999 (Talk) 16:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Omit - not pertinent. -999 (Talk) 16:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agreed: How does this help the article in question? It could remain if it establishes actually history, yet its only proving a point (that someone was initiated and by who). It might need to be moved to a bio page such as Chris Monnastre, if this is the legal name. Zos 17:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agree: the information belongs in seperate articles - JMax555 22:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Disagree: The founders of institutions are highly relevent to those institutions.Kephera975 04:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • No opinion - but it appears to lack context. It needs an explanation about how and why this is significant to the organization. Perhaps a quote should be used. It's not clear to me that all the text is from the actual cited source. Is the sentence "This visit was the first time that the Chic Cicero met Israel Regardie" supportable, or is it actually an unsupported allegation introduced by the WP editor who wrote this. ---Baba Louis 18:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Disagree: We do not need 15,000 seprarate articles on the modern HOGD. Chic Cicero does not deserve one. The founders of institutions are however highly relevent to those institutions. Furthermore, it is relevant to put claims made on the website into perspective.--Zanoni666 19:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Following this meeting, Cris Monnastre, Chic Cicero, and Adam Forrest began working together in the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, later incorporated in 1988 as a non-profit organization in the State of Florida, with Chic Cicero listed as its registered agent.


Following a schism in 1994, Ms. Monnastre was summarily replaced on the HOGD, Inc board of directors by Tabatha Cicero. Ms. Monnastre continued to operate her original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, together with David Griffin, independently of the Ciceros.[5]

  • Immaterial to article, belongs in bio of Ms. Monnastre, perhaps? The article should be about the org itself based on the orgs website, not a criticism of the org based on the view of a competing order. -999 (Talk) 16:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Omit - immaterial. -999 (Talk) 16:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Undecided: This shows who is running the org right now and why. I'm inclined to say that the first sentence should stay in, while the second sentence is immaterial. Zos 17:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Omit - immaterial, and in dispute between the factions. On the HOGD Inc. website it states that Ms. Monnastre voluntarily resigned, rather than being "summarily replaced". But there is no verifiable documentation either way, so it should be omitted. - JMax555 22:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Include: Again, the founders and the history of prcedent founders is of essential importance to any institution or organization. Kephera975 04:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually, if anything is to be included, it should be from the HOGD, Inc. site - this article is about HOGD and what it says about itself. The opinions of others, unless they be printed in a reliable source, are not appropriate for this article. That's very clearly stated in WP:V, which is non-negotiable. -999 (Talk) 04:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Omit - What is the source for the phrase "summarily replace"? Who said it? Without a source, it should not be included. ---Baba Louis 18:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Include': Again, the founders and the history of prcedent founders is of essential importance to any institution or organization. Besides you guys already included the corporate record. Either these records are relevant or they are not. If so, then the board members are also relevant.

Kephera, the citations of the date are published in Wikipedia-acceptable sources, so they can be used. Which, if you think about it, also means if Mr. Cicero is going to wave something around in court to prove his contention, it's going to be copies of those books, not a print-out of a Wikipeida article. This whole "legal advantage" argument is nonsensical. You know very well a judge isn't going to give a load of dingo's kidneys what Wikipedia says about anything. It's notoriously unreliable and carries zero weight in a court case.
But, I'm sorry to say, what's in books published under a major imprint are the trump card in the Wikipedia sourcing game. If something's in a book like that, it can be used in Wikipedia, period. Even if you think it's a lie, even if there's legal wrangling going on over it. - JMax555 07:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Website references

Kephera et al. has a point that the link to the "Feather of Ma'at" page on the HOGD Inc. website has material in it that is negative toward the HOGD/A+O.

If the link to the HOGD Inc. website that describes it's own history is so objectionable, how about using their front page, which states, "The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn is a non-profit Florida organization whose goal is the continued preservation of that body of knowledge known as Hermeticism or the Western Esoteric Tradition. This organization promotes the teachings of the original Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, a magical fraternity founded in London in 1888 by Dr. William Wynn Westcott and Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers", and "The Golden Dawn was designed by its founders to be an Hermetic Society dedicated to the philosophical, spiritual, and psychic evolution of humanity." Their front page contains nothing about court cases or fundraising. Would that be acceptable? I've placed an edit in the page to this effect. - JMax555 15:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I could agree with this. What would the problem with this be? Why get controversial on purpose? I'm noticing in the text below that 999 does not even answer this question and encourages perpetuating the conflict. Why? Kephera975 16:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, it should not be changed. I got a piece of information from that page, which is completely acceptable practice. I mean, the A+O page links to the Agreement between HOGD, Inc. and A+O, which they think is supportive of their case. Why should they get to link to material about the case and the HOGD, Inc. article not be allowed to? -999 (Talk) 15:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think NEITHER of them should get to do so. They should keep their legal dispute out of the pages of Wikipedia. But if the article on HOGD/A+O remains locked down, then you might be right. Put the info back in then. I was just trying to make peace. (See how terribly biased I am?) - JMax555 15:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and at the moment, the point is moot. Their webpage has been knocked out by a massive Denial-of-Service hacker attack. Someone out there thinks it's worth breaking federal law to silence them. Curious, that. - JMax555 15:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I noticed that. I hope the culprits get caught and imprisoned.
Actually, I think that the fact that there is a legal dispute is a valid topic for inclusion. As long as the articles do not attempt any legal analysis, it is completely valid to mention it and perfectly acceptable for each Order to link to their web page on their site that discusses it. -999 (Talk) 15:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

External input

Hello, I found this page listed on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Religion and philosophy. I'll be looking it over and then adding my independent opinion to the fray. ---Baba Louis 17:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ The Feather of Maat: 01. Retrieved June 3, 2006.
  2. ^ Cicero, Chic and Tabatha (2004). The Middle Pillar: The balance between mind and magic: Llewellyn Publications, p. xxiv. ISBN 1-56718-140-6
  3. ^ Regardie, Israel, et. al., eds., The Golden Dawn: A Complete Course in Practical Ceremonial Magic (Llewellyn, 1989), p. xxii ISBN 0875426638
  4. ^ Cicero, Chic and Tabatha (2004). The Essential Golden Dawn: An Introduction to high magic: Llewellyn Publications, p.255. ISBN: 0-7387-0310-9.
  5. ^ Florida Department of State, Division of Corporations, Document Number N25541. Retrieved June 3, 2006.
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