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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Duncharris (talk | contribs) at 23:36, 13 September 2004 (→List of favourite pages). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

In order to remain listed at Wikipedia:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute, not different disputes. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: {insert UTC timestamp with 11:03, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 13:40, 13 June 2025 (UTC).

Statement of the dispute

This user has been primarily pushing his own POV, has reacted aggressively to attempts to help him write better articles and systematically copyvioed.

Description

{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries}

POV edits

The user states that he is an officer in the Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League. He has repeatedly inserted POV language into the article on that group, and has reinstated his edits after reversions, with no edit summaries or comments until today. Today he posted comments on the article talk page which indicate that he still does not intend to follow NPOV guidelines.

The user has added POV text to other Vietnam-related articles including Vietnam and Bao Dai. Attempts by other users to explain NPOV policy have met with no success. (That is, until this Request for Comment page was posted. Tran Van Ba has now added some apologetic remarks on one article, referring to the POV issue but not addressing any of the other issues mentioned here. [1] [2]) ←Hob 05:08, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

Much of the content he has added comes from a V.C.M.L. website (http://users.panola.com/vietnam); Tran Van Ba claims to be the webmaster of this site, which appears to be true. However, that does not resolve the question of copyright on the text and images. The user's only response to that question has been to post numerous unverifiable claims that the images belong to various members of royal families on whose behalf he operates the website. When it was pointed out that a large portion of text was a verbatim (and POV) copy from the website, he claimed falsely that it was not.

Others of the user's newly added articles on Asian royalty were copied from two other websites, http://www.geocities.com/vietmonarchy/ and http://www.jaffnaroyalfamily.org/index2.htm -- Tran Van Ba did not author this content and it is not public domain. ←Hob 05:08, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

images

There is a need to establish that these images are public domain, GFDL, or fair use

Anonymous POV edits by this user

Tran Van Ba and 198.26.120.13 appear to be the same (as evidenced by the history of this very page, where 198.26.120.13 posted Tran Van Ba's response to the charges against him [3]). This IP address had a long history of similar behavior in Vietnam-related articles (POV edits, and linkspamming to the V.C.M.L. website) before Tran Van Ba began editing under his own name. This indicates a pattern of willful disregard for Wikipedia guidelines. ←Hob 05:31, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

(And that may not be the half of it. See Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Tran Van Ba.) ←Hob 07:33, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)

Evidence of disputed behavior

(provide diffs and links)

  1. Cut factual text from Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League with no explanation, and added POV text to intro. When these edits were reverted by Hob, Tran Van Ba repeated them three times - again with no explanation in edit summaries or talk page. [4] [5] [6]
  2. Inserted a large amount of POV text copied verbatim from the website of the V.C.M.L. (http://users.panola.com/vietnam) without acknowledging its source. [7]
  3. Added POV references to V.C.M.L. in Vietnam. [8] [9] [10]
  4. Added POV material to Bao Dai ("the infamous Ho Chi Minh", etc.) after article had been edited for NPOV numerous times. This edit was identical to a previously reverted one by 198.26.120.13. [11] [12]
  5. Posted images of unknown origin which appear on his own website and other sites, and used edit summaries to claim with no evidence that the photos "may be used for free use... given by Prince Nguyen... authorized by His advisor", etc. [13] [14] [15]
  6. Verbatim copying from http://www.geocities.com/vietmonarchy/gialongtribute.html into Gia Long. [16]
  7. Verbatim copying from http://www.geocities.com/vietmonarchy/minhmangtribute.html into Minh Mang.
  8. Verbatim copying from http://www.jaffnaroyalfamily.org/index2.htm to Jerry Remigius Kanagarajah. Copyvio message added to article by User:Cyrius; Tran Van Ba deletes copyvio message! [17] [18]
  9. Examples of POV edits and linkspamming by anonymous IP 198.26.120.13 who is apparently the same as Tran Van Ba (see Description). [19] [20] [21] [22] [23]

List of favourite pages

This is a list of pages primarily contributed by this chap. Other edits to other pages have usually been reverted.

I think that's all of those that need attention. Dunc_Harris|☺ 23:36, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Applicable policies

{list the policies that apply to the disputed conduct}

  1. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
  2. Wikipedia:Copyright
  3. Wikipedia:Image use policy#Copyright (images)
  4. Wikipedia:Don't create articles about yourself

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(provide diffs and links)

  1. Hob left messages on user's talk page and article talk page about POV edits to Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League. No response. [24] [25] [26] [27] [28]
  2. After POV text was removed, added it again with the only change being to insert "The Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League believes..." before each paragraph. Edit summary says "this edite was done to speak in neutral terms to explain what this organization in detail of Vietnamese History." [29]
  3. User:Cyrius gives initial warning about verbatim copying. [30]
  4. Tran Van Ba responds to allegation of verbatim copying by changing the subject: he says "the statement above is incorrect" because the text is not from the website's main page. In fact it is a verbatim copy of another page on the site. [31] [32]
  5. Tran Van Ba attempts to justify verbatim copying of Jerry Remigius Kanagarajah by saying that the content is from Kanagarajah's website - true, but irrelevant. [33]
  6. User:Mihnea Tudoreanu attempts to explain POV issues on Vietnam and Vietnamese Constitutional Monarchist League. Tran Van Ba responds that the text is not POV because "[the VCML] have chapters in Saigon" etc., and "I went back to correct all the statement that said WE and first person". [34] [35]

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

(sign with ~~~~)

  1. ←Hob 05:08, 2004 Sep 13 (UTC)
  2. Dunc_Harris|☺ 09:39, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC) (well done on the report, my first attempt was awful)

Other users who endorse this summary

(sign with ~~~~)

Improv 20:35, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Response

This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete.

Reply Tran Van Ba

Duncharris has mistated facts presented here at this hearing. If you mistate facts at a hearing please throw this case out of court. He has no standing and his evidence is flawed. In the above paragraph he states " Royal families in Asia, who hold no power but appear to pretend to thrones." The Southeast Asia Imperial & Royal League are not made of pretenders.

  1. I checked H.R.M. King Norodom Sihanouk of Cambodia is NOT a PRETENDER, he is the head of state.
  2. Prince Nguyen Phuc Buu Chanh is the Regent of the Imperial Nguyen Dynasty of Vientam.
  3. Prince Mangkra Souvannaphouma of Laos has been involved with this country poltics for over 60 years and 30 of those years were in exile, HE IS NOT THE CROWN PRINCE, who lives in exile in France.
  4. Prince Hso Khan Pha of Yawnghwe is the religious leader for his people the Shan similar to the Dali Lama.
  5. Prince Shwebomin of Burma has been involved with Madame Marie de Roland-Peel, General Secretary of the British Committee for Free Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia & Burma for over 10 years, while living in exile in the United Kingdom to assist his country to honor the elections that Aung San Suu Kyi, who was elected Prime Minister in 1990 and freedom human rights for his people.
  6. Rajah (Prince) Jerry Remigius Kanagarajah of Jaffna (Sri Lanka) has been involved in religious ceremonies and also advocating peaceful plans for his nation of Sri Lanka that has been at War with the Tamil Minorities for over 30 years.
  • Is this fair that you do not look at the facts.

Please see links and re-evaluate thank you.


7. Prince Norodom Ranariddh of Cambodia has been involved in politics once the Kingdom of Cambodia was established in 1993, for over 10 years which excludes him from taking the throne since

In closing, NONE OF THESE ROYALTY are pretenders, they are involved in politics within their country and also have aligned themselves within the Southeast Asia Imperial & Royal League to gather strength and support to work for human rights and freedom of speech, religion and liberty and rights for their countries.

There is no, statement that they want to be King, Where does the "Duncharris" get the idea that they are "PRETENDERS" ?

Sir, if these is not your concentration of knowledge please do some research before you present your case because you are not only wasting my time but others too. But if you want to learn more I have offered to bring some insightful knowlege to you, and offered you my email address so that I can recommend some reading material that can back up the factual basis.

Again, this is not factual statement like that above which he disrespect to Upstanding Gentlement that are working to serve their nations as Ambassadors of Peace and to fullfill their right to bring happiness to their people.

In Closing, I state that the other users that "Duncharris" refers to do not have a understanding of Asian Royalty I have served the Late Emperor Bao Dai and was his Colonel-in-Chief of his Imperial Guard and I not only have knowledge of many Royal Houses in Southeast Asia by first hand experiance I am also have been studying Southeast Asian Royalty for over the past 40 years.

I am just here to spread knowledge of all Southeast Asian culture and the people and the Royal Families play a pivotal role in their country lives to the broader world that do not have knowledge of it.

I wonder if I was writing about European Royality exiles that are seeking thrones or political peaceful agendas for their country such as King of Greece, King of Albania, Ramonov family, Duke of Paris, Italian Royalty, Romanian Royal Family, would this be a issue ?

Tran_van_ba 11:00, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Outside view

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries}

Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):

  1. In my view, there is plenty of room for descendents of Royalty having pages. For example, Crown Prince Alexander II of Serbia and Yugoslavia, or Grand Duchess Olga of Russia or the various women claiming to be Anastacia Romanov. If the infighting of the Romanov Clan could be said to be encyclopedic, I fail to see why a group working against the current governments of Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam is not. I agree that they are not notable in any other regard, but the fact that those people are descendents of a royal line seems good enough for me. Given that,
    1. I wish to point out that there is a distinct bias on wikipedia against Asian royal families.
    2. Tran Van Ba did write an article about himself, which is a definite no-no in wikipedia, see Wikipedia:Auto-biography.
    3. Both Tran Van Ba and Duncl Harris comes across pretty strongly, they should Wikipedia:Assume good faith
    4. Mr. Tran and his cohorts may not be aware of the consequences of their original writing to Wikipedia, they should evaluate Wikipedia:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License
    5. Mr. Tran should also be encouraged to participate in the community. Recreating pages that have been through the VfD process with the exact same text, for example, is a violation of the process, and he should (at least) have a discussion in the Village pump and make the article different or at least address the reason that the original document was deleted.

-Vina 23:20, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I endorse these statements by User:Vina. Everyone involved here, on both sides, needs to cool off a little. Tran Van Ba made an article about himself -- big deal, move it to the user space, let's move on from there. Other articles by him can be handled one at a time. Wile E. Heresiarch 00:27, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Jimmyvanthach I have received a forward email from Tran Van Ba and will be looking over the discussion to see what was the issue of the articles that I submitted to him. I will go over the guidlines of Wikipedia and fix his submissions asap, Additionally thanks you for the concernJimmyvanthach

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to a vote or endorsement, should be directed to this page's discussion page.



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