Talk:African Americans

I do not understand this sentence (really just the first clause):

Advocacy for its use has sometimes been criticized as due to political correctness; those who prefer it say it is a matter of respect and politeness

How is the terms political correctness in any way a "criticism" (and does this mean that it therefore is not a reason for using the term)? It seems to me that it doesn't matter whether it is good politics or just plain polite, either way is a good reason for using the term. SR

I wholeheartedly agree. In defense of the originator's phrasing, though, they may have meant that those who use terms like "political correctness" mean the term to be negative. There are some folk who want to defend their right to use whatever terms hey grew up with, and for NPOV sake, I guess they ought to be represented. I just don't agree with 'em, personally. -- April

I think the page should be retitled "Black American" since "African American" is ambiguous and not as recognized as some people want. And "political correctness" is bad because it suggests that calling black people "African Americans" will magically make them being an oppressed underclass go away. Who in their right mind gives a damn whether black people are called black or "African Americans"? And no, the fact that black people request this doesn't mean anything. What does "respect" gain them when they largely remain poor, uneducated and oppressed? "respect" isn't something you can eat. --Anon

I think that would be inadvisable, since the most common official usage is presently African-American. You'll never get a consensus, since a lot of what people call themselves is both based on generation and region, so we might as well stay with the official. And it does actually matter what people want to call themselves, by the way. In my family, the West Indian faction definitely want to be called West Indian, NOT black, and my neice and nephew prefer "mixed" to "mulatto". That said, I think of myself as mixed (specifically a mostly German-Scots mutt), and HATE to describe myself as a color, when everybody else gets to define themselves by ethnic heritage...JHK

Mega dittos JHK! BTW Anon, "Black American" is both an obvious misnomer and is far more ambiguous than the more informative "African American" -- a term that describes where someone's ancestors came from. Besides this issue, is the fact that JHK brought up -- "African American" is the term most often used. --maveric149

If you don't like describing yourself by a color, then complain about the fact that people care what color your skin is. This would be a perfectly legitimate complaint since it's possible to raise children to be color-blind. As for ethnicity, I HATE having to describe myself by an ethnicity; so how about that?

If you want to describe yourself by ethnicity for some weird ass reason then why don't you use an ethnic group? 'African' is not an ethnic group! 'European' isn't an ethnic group either, just a euphemism for 'white'. Or are we supposed to call them ethnic groups because the word 'race' is not PC anymore?

Let's empirically test whether 'african american' is supposed to be informative or if it's just supposed to be the PC gloss over a race term. The test is this: what would people call an australian aborigine who moves to the USA?

If you're so ignorant of your heritage that you don't even know what ethnic group you're from then you don't deserve to call yourself by one! -- ark

--- Now, there's a statement redolent with white arrogance and condescension! Your statements throughout this discussion show YOU to be the one who is abysmally ignorant of African American heritage and culture. You should just shut the hell up, because you obviously haven't a clue and clearly aren't qualified to make pronouncements on who knows what on this subject.deeceevoice 18:03, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

ark, perhaps you misunderstand the neature of an encyclopedia. There is a term, "African-American," that is in wide use, at least in the United States. It is reasonable to have an article describing how the phrase is used, its history, and its meaning(s). If there is public debate over the use of the term, a good article will also describe that debate. (It is my sense that there is little if any debate today over the use of this term). Whether I or you or anyone else personally does not like this term is irrelevant. And if you or I do not understand why people use this term -- well, isn't this the purpose of an encyclopedia, to help us understand? Perhaps it is time for you to re-read the NPOV policy, and otehr guidelines for Wikipedia. SR

Apparently, you don't understand the role reality plays in an encyclopedia entry. Just because Americans use the euphemism African American (whether or not at the request of the native black population) doesn't negate the fact that the USA is an incredibly racist country and is presently waging a race war against blacks which harkens back to the 60s.

When political correctness was first invented, it may or may not have been honest social engineering. To determine that, you'd have to look at the socio-political conditions when the PC movement started. You'd have to check whether black Americans were winning gains or losing them.

But nowadays, black Americans are steadily losing everything they gained in previous decades. So the continued use 'African American' is just a shallow and tragic (or shallow and cynical) attempt to deny reality.

An explanation of all these issues is relevant to an encyclopedia entry. The purpose of Wikipedia isn't to reinforce American delusions and myth-making (at least, I hope not). The notion that white Americans are any the less racist by using a transparent euphemism for race and blacks is just such a delusion.

The notion that conservative and liberal American attitudes to a political issue (such as PC) are the only ones that count is another American myth. Just because you've got "what the Republicans say" and "what the Democrats say" in the article doesn't mean you've covered all sides of the issue. Which is precisely why I am bringing up the sides of the issue the article never talks about. And in so doing I am helping in the construction of an NPOV article. What are you doing? (Other than being an arrogant ass.)

So let's recapitulate:

Describing someone by skin colour is just as legitimate as describing them by other physical characteristics like height, hair and eye color, weight, build, et cetera.
Most people (both white and black) go beyond that and take the illegitimate step of describing people's identity by their skin color. This involves a completely artificial concept called "race".
America is a very racist place (one who believes that "race" exists and is important) as is Brazil and pretty much the entire planet.
Yet only Americans have bizarre race politics in which acknowledging the fact that people are racist (or that people have visibly different skin color) is verbotten. Instead, one is supposed to use "ethnicity".

Have you spent any time in Latin America or talking to Hispanics? Talk about people in denial about virulent and pervasive racism -- all the while pretending that they're just one, big, happy family. deeceevoice 03:23, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In fact, terms like "African American" have little or no relation to ethnicity and are just euphemisms for race terms. Most people (even most liberals) do not know and do not care about the difference between a Nigerian and an Ethiopian. They're both supposed to be "African". (Which is especially absurd once one realizes that Africa is the most ethnically diverse place in the entire freaking world.)

---

Not so at all. This is sheer ignorance. Ethnic designations have a great deal to do with culture: language, foodways, music, physical adornment/dress, shared history, etc. Taking on the name "African-American" -- "African" as a legitimate descriptor of important aspects of black ethnicity/culture (indeed as an asignation of source) is perfectly legitimate. Culturally, we are not simply dark Americans; there IS a difference. And, frankly, it's not our concern what "most liberals" (or bigots) think or don't think. The term "African-American" is, first and foremost, about what many of us have chosen to call ourselves -- for any number of perfectly valid reasons. And it really doesn't matter what others think of the term. I hear no such similar arrogant presumptions about why Italian-Americans, Chinese-Americans, or Irish-Americans refer to themselves as they do. deeceevoice 03:23, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

---

There is a widespread delusion that liberals are "less racist" because they use euphemisms for blunt race terms.

All of these things are important and relevant to an encyclopedia entry. As much as Americans like to live in denial, an entry that takes their own view of their country as unquestionable fact will be useless to non-Americans. Principally because it will be false. -- ark

There is nothing in the article that denies that "the USA is an incredibly racist country and is presently waging a race war against blacks which harkens back to the 60s." Moreover, there is nothing about the phrase "African-American" that denies that "the USA is an incredibly racist country and is presently waging a race war against blacks which harkens back to the 60s;" conversely, use of the phrase does not suggest that racism against Blacks does not exist. Nothing in the article suggests that merely by using this phrase, one has proven that one is not a racist.

Only technically. It is strongly implied though. How? Americans already believe it and the article doesn't dispute it in any way, but subtly validates their own worldview.

By the way, I observe that you use the term "Black." You know, there was a time when Blacks were called something else in this country (and there are still some people who call them something else). The fact that you call them "Blacks" does not change the fact that there continues to be a considerable amount of racism against African-Americans in this country, though. Indeed, there are many racists who call African-Americans "Black." Personally, I see no reason to assume that therefore anyone who calls an African American "Black" is necessarily a racist. But you never know! SR

When talking to racists, it is often needful to use their language. I wouldn't get very far if I just denied that such a thing as "race" exists. And while race should have no role in everyday or political life anymore than hair colour does, the fact that it has and continues to do so means it must be taken into account by anyone interested in sociology and psychology.

(I got African American and Political correctness confused when I ranted about liberals versus conservative views.) -- ark

ARK, The point is not to decide which term is the least racist -- it is to use the most accepted term. If we were working in the 1950s, we'd say Negro. And you are somewhat correct in that African is not an ethnicity -- clearly there are many ethnic groups and within those groups many different tribes in Africa. However, the reality in America is that most Africans brought over as slaves were deliberately separated from fellow tribesmen, and through the generations most African-Americans have become people whose African background is, well, pan-African, rather than from any particular African ethnic group.

As for your somewhat spurious inquiry about an Australian Aborigine who re-located to the US, he would most likely consider himself Aborigine or maybe Australian. Moreover, most of the people I deal with (generally my students or collegues) who come from parts of Africa WOULD NOT consider themselves African-American -- they are Somali-American, Ghanaian-American. Your insistence on using Black is somewhat offensive, not because it is not PC (something I generally question), but because it reduces people to skin color. Ethnic heritage is important and interesting. Learning about different peoples' backgrounds helps to build understanding and break down the barriers that seeing things in terms of color tends to create. JHK

Regarding pan-Africanism. I agree, I just wish it was explained that way.

Regarding skin color. There is nothing inherent in skin color that logically entails a tendency for people to reduce others to their skin color. Just because people note others are black, brown or white doesn't necessarily imply that they reduce them to their skin color. This is important because it means that noting skin color doesn't produce racist people. Rather, the reverse happens; racism causes people to note (obsess over) skin color. (Many people seem to have problems distinguishing between correlation, causation and reverse -causation. I don't and I consider such beneath me.)

By the way, when you implicitly refer to 'African American's' backgrounds, it's ironic to note that little to none of their background has anything to do with Africa. The pan-Africanism is a mythology which some American black leaders have deliberately constructed over the last few decades. So in my view, 'African American' is about as much of an ethnicity as 'Atheist American'. Doubly so since 'American' isn't even an ethnicity; sociologists recognize about a dozen different ethnicities in the continental US!

"... little to none of their background has anything to do with Africa." WTF? Someone seems sorely in need of a course in African-American Culture 101. lol deeceevoice 03:23, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You think that using black and brown is offensive? Well, I think the insistence on avoiding it is offensive. It's magical thinking. It's a cargo cult. It's rearranging the organizational charts. And I find all such things ridiculous at best and offensive when taken seriously. Now, if people could stop being so damned "offended" long enough to provide a reasonable argument (which you did with African, thank you) then that would be a Good Thing, don't you think?

Here's another argument for you to think about. The US has never recognized dual cultural heritage; this is the country where the Melting Pot is the official doctrine, remember? So there are Americans and then there are non-Americans. Black isn't an ethnicity so a black American is still an American. What do you think that makes an "African" American?

More faulty reasoning. There have ALWAYS been hyphenated Americans -- groups who recognize their dual identities as immigrants or the offspring of immigrants. This need to identify with countries of origin goes beyond identification with any particular nation-state, but has much to do, again, with ethnicity/culture -- foodways, language, customs, music, etc. The U.S. has never been a "melting pot." That is the great lie, the great myth. The nation remains segregated/polarized around issues of "race" and ethnicity. There are still ethnic neighborhoods and tightly knit circles of ethnically exclusive social and political groupings. And "black," when used to refer to a particular group of people with a common history and common culture, IS an ethnicity.deeceevoice 03:23, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

An interesting anecdote about Somali-Americans. It seems the US government has been deporting children of Somali-Americans born on US soil. To the gov, there's no such thing as 'Somali-Americans'.

On a tangential note, there are considerable cultural tensions (at least in Minneapolis) between Somali-Americans (i.e. "of Somali ancestry") and African-Americans (i.e., "descended from slaves brought forcibly to the USA"). I'm not an expert on such matters, but two aspects I've noted are: (1) Somali immigrants and their children, as was the case with previous waves of immigrants, are motivated to do well academically and acculturate to the economically successful strata of society. (2) Some groups of African-Americans resent the success of their Somali-American counterparts.

I've also heard stories of children from Africa being teased by their African-American classmates for "not being black enough". (!!) What bugs me is, if these people have their panties so up in a bunch about this, why don't they take it as a challenge to do better? <sarcasm on> Oh, wait, silly me, I'm speaking from the position of a middle-class European in America, a member of the above-mentioned "economically successful strata of society" and couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about. *whaps forehead*</sarcasm off>

Apologies for the mini-rant. Needless to say, US American notions of race, ethnicity, and cultural identity are intertwined and complex. The fact that we're able to talk about them in this manner is in itself a sign of progress. Let's not lose sight of that. Pgdudda

Au contraire. There are many of us who would take the fact that a discussion of the term "African-American" has degenerated into an opportunity for whites to indulge in admitted "rants" and pointless, backhanded random criticisms of the people so described as a sure sign of the persistent and virulent racism and self-righteousness of many white Americans. Apology NOT accepted.

And one other thing. There seems to be an assumption that "African-American" is a term that was imposed upon black folks by whites. No so. It's a term WE chose -- for any number of reasons, of which there seems to be precious little understanding or knowledge by the contributors in this section. Just amazing. deeceevoice 17:34, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that any ethnologist would class black Americans as belonging to whatever American geo-ethnic group they belong to, with no distinction between black and white. If this isn't so then I'm certain that the ethnic groups of black Americans are merely subgroups of the major recognized geo-ethnic groups. IOW, that there is no such thing as an "American black ethnicity". Tough cookies but this is a matter of fact for sociologists to debate, though the delusion that laypeople have a say in the matter should be duly recorded in an encyclopedia entry. -- ark

Quite the contrary. Any ethnologist worth his/her salt definitely would distinguish between black and white American citizens. To do otherwise would be to ignore obvious differences in African-American culture and that of other ethnic groups in American society.deeceevoice 03:23, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ed Poor changed:

African American (or African-American) is a term used to describe black Americans of African heritage. More broadly and less formally, it is sometimes used for any black person living in America.

to

African American (or African-American) is a term used to describe black Americans of African or Caribbean heritage.

Perhaps I'm misremembering my history, but isn't the black population of the Caribbean largely of the same origins as that of the US: descendants of Africans brought in and forced into slave labor during the colonial era? Ergo, Caribbean blacks are of African heritage? --Brion VIBBER

Exactly my point, Brion. But I couldn't figure out who to work that idea into the article. Would you please do that for me? --Ed Poor

Well, I'd have done it by not bothering to mention "Caribbean" in the first place. ;) --Brion VIBBER

I just edited some cut-and-paste garble out of the third paragraph and it struck me: Just what term do those who criticize "African-American" as "political correctness" propose to replace it? And what claim to the right to do so are they asserting? Is it those who disdain "colored people" and favor "people of color"? Or it those who . . . who what? Are racists, perhaps.

To me it is a matter of respect for the fact that African-Americans put up with a boatload of stupidity and worse every day of their lives. As Colin Powell says, "When you're black, you're black all day." So what possible objection can there be to respecting their wishes as to their preferred designation? Ortolan88 06:19 Aug 1, 2002 (PDT)

I'm not sure what's up with that, but it might be a resistance to any categorization. I've repeatedly heard complaints from various advocates that terminology denoting a certain group was demeaning in that it "labeled" them. These objections may stem from a desire to avoid unfavorable stereotyping. Anyway, as time goes by the usage of terms shifts, and it would be nice if the Wikipedia could chronicle these shifts. --Ed Poor

Precisely, Ortolan! It's not like we're asking for a white stamp of approval about what to call ourselves -- or that we recognize others' (especially white folks') reaction to it is of any importance or merit. It doesn't matter to us in the least. So, what's all this crap? A "boatload of stupidity," indeed! :-p deeceevoice 06:02, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Question: Would the term African American be used for Black American citizens coming from the West Indies? If a Black British person took US citizenship would they become an "African American"? I am interesed in how direct the link with America has to be. --Anonymous

In the early nineties I read an article in a linguistic journal. I think the title was "Self Reference Terms for Decendants of American Slaves". Published in the early 1990s or late 1980s. I'll see if I can find it. (Personally I don't like the term African American. I believe whites like to use it so they can put Black Americans in with the emigrant groups and forget about the middle passage and slavery.) Gbleem 20:42 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

I believe African American, like other positive terms before it, has become popular at the behest of African Americans, not whites. As for your other question, many leading members of the community have come from a West Indian background, including Marcus Garvey, Sidney Poitier, and Colin Powell, which pretty much covers the possible range, yet they are all known as American Negroes or African Americans. On the other hand, if Lenny Henry moved to this country, fascinating thought, I'm pretty sure we'd think he was English. Since race is a social classification, there isn't going to be a heck of a lot of logic about it.Ortolan88

I'm sorry. I'm Gbleem and I was trying to answer the West Indies question written by someone else. I took the liberty of adding an Anonymous signature to that question. The article I mentioned talks about the path of the term African-American. Sure Black people started it but it was introduced to most Whites by Jessie Jackson. The intention by Blacks may be to have a term that has the same status as Italian-American or Asian-American but the result is a loss of significant history in the minds of other ethnic groups.

The online database I found doesn't go back before 1995. I'll try to get by the UMKC Library next week and find that article. "Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together In the Cafeteria?" by Beverly Tatum might have some interesting insites. I read it a few years ago but I remember her saying she liked Black because she was in college when "Black is Beautiful" was a popular slogan. I most likely heard that slogan on T.V. when I was a kid. (I'm 34) Gbleem

I'm still reading this stuff, and it gets curiouser and curiouser. Dang, bwoi. You gotta go back nine years and dig up some article by a single individual who happens to be a writer for a black point of view?!! And you heard "black as beautiful" as a slogan on TV when you were a kid?!! lol If you're so isolated/segregated from black folks that this is all you have to draw on, perhaps you shouldn't be contributing to this particular article. Just a thought. deeceevoice

I didn't "dig up" the article. I first read it shortly after it was published and it seems to be a good source by someone much more qualified than myself. If you have a dispute with the content of the journal article purhaps you should contact its author or submit your own article. As for the term "Black is Beautiful" I would guess most blacks my age who live in the midwest first heard it on TV as well although I haven't taken a formal survey. Gbleem 14:34, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad you didn't bother. Not that I have a problem with it; I simply doubt its relevance. This article is already way off-point as it is. And, no. I needn't submit my own article -- thank you very much for the suggestion. I don't think there's a need to segregate black contribution -- just bomb the hell out of the garbage that's already been written and construct something useful and balanced. deeceevoice 15:15, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hi Gbleem, I took the further liberty of indenting our contributions to make it clear who's talking when. I really don't think anyone has ever forgotten that black people came here as slaves, regardless of the term used, from the most offensive to the most favored. And, if you've read memoirs by black Americans who have visited Africa, they almost always come back with a conviction that they are Americans, not Africans. Ortolan88

I hear that journalists are forced to use African American, and replace any use of black. One wonders how they will refer to Lennox Lewis. And anecdotally, I heard about a politician's office (Bay Area I think) which set up the word processor to automatically change the word. This led to the literal color black being replaced (...penguins are African-American and white)

"Forced" as in coercion? Ridiculous. Any publication of any merit has a style in matters such as this, so that there is consistency in format, spelling, word usage, etc. It's simply standard journalistic practice. YOu sign up with a publication, you follow the style manual.deeceevoice

"The African American race is the most punished race in North America. African American males are more likely to be imprisoned than any other demographic group, especially between the ages of 20 and 39. African American public school students are most likely to be assigned to special-education classes."

I find this statement very POV, coming as it does, under the rubric of "Slavery and Oppression". One could just as well say "the African American race is the most criminal race" or "the African American race is the most criminally victimised race". All these facts are true, and their significance can only be determined by a deeper analysis. According to a Federal Report [Sentencing in the Federal Courts: Does Race Matter?] "Mearly all of the aggregate differences among sentences for whites, blacks, and Hispanics during 1989-90 can be attributed to characteristics of offenses and offenders that current law and sentencing guidelines establish as legitimate considerations in sentencing decisions." -- Daran 00:22, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)

"...the most criminal race"?

WTF? And by whose twisted standards? (See my later comments about WHITE criminality.) When examined by true factors of what produces criminal behavior -- rather than by backwards notion of race (literacy/education level, socioeconomic background, rearing-family status, family history) -- one would see that rates of criminality are pretty much level across ethnicities. It is the disproportionate presence of factors that perpetuate social and economic disadvantage and militate towards criminal behavior, in addition to the racially skewed criminal justice system, that account for much of the imbalance.

And speaking of so-called "legitimate considerations in sentencing decisions" (that gave me a big laugh), let me offer for your consideration this, verbatim from the FAMM website:

Cocaine is a powder which in its "cooked" form is called crack cocaine.

The mandatory minimum sentencing laws established by Congress in 1986 reflect the belief that crack is more harmful than powder cocaine and penalize crack defendants more harshly than powder cocaine defendants. Defendants convicted of selling 500 grams of powder cocaine or five grams of crack cocaine receive five-year sentences. For five kilos of powder cocaine and 50 grams of crack, the penalty is 10 years. Thus there is a 100:1 ratio.

Simple possession of any quantity of powder cocaine by first-time offenders is considered a misdemeanor, punishable by no more than one year in prison. Simple possession of crack cocaine is a felony, carrying a five-year mandatory sentence. [Add the three-strikes law, and you've got a recipe for what we have now -- scores of black and brown youth locked up for outrageous periods of time and then trapped in an endless cycle of recidivism for offenses for which other, more well-heeled (read "white") folks get taps on the wrist.]

A 1995 report of the U.S. Sentencing Commission found little inherent difference between crack and powder cocaine and concluded that the 100:1 ratio was unfair. Congress rejected a subsequent amendment by the Sentencing Commission to eliminate the sentencing disparity between crack and powder. Other efforts to alter the ratio failed. Special Report to the Congress: Cocaine and Federal Sentencing Policy, February 1995.U. S. Sentencing Commission.

Blacks accounted for 84 percent of the drug offenders convicted of crack offenses in fiscal year 2000, Hispanics 9 percent and whites 6 percent. Of the powder cocaine offenses, Hispanics accounted for 50 percent, blacks 30 percent and whites 18 percent. 2000 Sourcebook of Federal Sentencing Statistics, U.S. Sentencing Commission.

No weapons were involved in 89 percent of the cocaine cases and 79 percent of the crack cases. 2000 Sourcebook of Federal Sentencing Statistics, U.S. Sentencing Commission.

The mean average sentence length for powder cocaine is 77 months, compared to 119.5 months for crack cocaine. The median average is 60 months for powder cocaine and 97 months for crack cocaine. 2000 Sourcebook of Federal Sentencing Statistics, U.S. Sentencing Commission.

Only offenders convicted of murder and kidnapping/hostage taking serve longer mean average sentences than crack offenders. Those convicted of robbery serve an average 108 months; arson, 68 months; sexual abuse, 65 months; and manslaughter, 25 months. 2000 Sourcebook of Federal Sentencing Statistics, U.S. Sentencing Commission.

A 1996 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association finds similar physiological and psychoactive affects for crack and powder cocaine and challenges the basis of harsher crack sentences. Crack Cocaine and Cocaine Hydrochloride: Are the Differences Myth or Reality?," by Dorothy K. Hatsukami, Ph.D., and Marian W. Fischman, Ph.D. Journal of American Medical Association, November 20, 1996.

An analysis of 36 studies on "crack babies" published in the Journal of the American Medical Association shows that poverty and the use of cigarettes, alcohol and other drugs during pregnancy are just as likely as cocaine to cause developmental problems in children. "Growth, Development and Behavior in Early Childhood Following Prenatal Cocaine Exposure," by Deborah A. Frank, M.D.; Marilyn Augustyn, M.D.; Wanda Grant Knight Ph.D.; Tripler Pell, M.Sc.; and Barry Zuckerman, M.D. Journal of the American Medical Association, March 28, 2001.

This is not an invitation to carry this discussion further. I find it irrelevant and distasteful.

I am of the opinion, however, that ranking oppression and disadvantage is not a terribly productive exercise. After all, such things are highly personal and subjective to those so affected, and there is no objective metric, no Richter scale for human suffering. I find the sentence -- and, frankly, much of this discussion (and, as a result, portions of the article itself) -- abysmally ham-handed, arrogant, inept and wrong-headed. And I mean that in a nice way. :-p deeceevoice 19:09, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Removed Since then it has become a definition accepted by the Western World.

This is clearly not the case in the UK. I find it very strange when US people say "I didn't know he was black", when seeing a picture of someone's grand-parents. -- Chris Q 09:36, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The latest edit made (by Karukera) was changing this:

or even a European nation

to this:

or even an European nation

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't go around saying "an Errr-uh-pe-an". Should not the /j/ sound take the word "a"? I don't say "an yam" or "an year" or "an Yugoslavian", do you? And we don't say "an unicorn" or "an uniform" or "an urinal" either, with what sound like they begin with Y. So, forget the "E" at the beginning for a moment . . . what about "(a|an) European" or "(a|an) eucalyptus"? Should we leave this spelling correction in, or revert it? Thoughts? Wiwaxia 02:13, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Someone removed the fact that Af-Ams have lower average IQ (~80) than white or asian (~100). This is not in itself a racist comment. It seems to be politically correct to say that all races have equal intelligence, but this is simply not true. Consider dogs, for instance. There are many "races" of dogs, but some races are smarter than others. There is debate that IQ does not measure intelligence. Given this valid contention, it should be stated in the article that "Although African Americans have a lower average IQ compared to whites and Asians, it should also be mentioned that IQ tests have been criticized as being invalid measures of intelligence". Acornlord 10:28, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Acornlord, you're an ass. The fact that such a discussion ever even made it into print in this context is blatantly racist. That crap should have been deleted.deeceevoice 09:47, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Black" vs "black"

I've just replaced some instances of "Black" and "White" with "black" and "white", since the previous version had a hodge-podge of case usage.

I know that many groups favor capitalizing the terms "black" and "white", but to be encyclopedic the article should pick one and be consistent throughout, as mixing the two together serves only to confuse. And for completeness, whether or not the term should be capitalized should be addressed in the "Term Criticism and Alternative Names" or "Terms No Longer in Current Use" sections.

Similarly, "Negro" vs "negro" should be resolved, although in this case there seems to be a stronger precedent for the former.

Kaszeta 18:55, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Negro" versus "negro" was resolved decades ago. The use of "negro," with a small "n," long has been considered disrespectful/racist -- much in the same way a white person calling an unrelated black man "uncle" is insulting and condescending. I haven't seen it in print (except in racist publications or by people who simply don't know any better) since the 1940's. No reputable, literate publication these days uses "negro" -- at least not in the United States.

And as for black, most black folks I know don't capitalize either "black" or "white." In fact, the lower-case use of the preferred term (preferred to "Negro") was one of the many reasons black folks adopted the term African-American. "Negro" had acquired Uncle Tommish connotations and was too easily "mispronounced" (the way redneck southerners were so fond of doing) to approximate "nigra"/"nigger," and it was felt that our people deserved an upper-case designation on par that of other "hyphenated Americans," that expresses our pride in our African heritage -- and, for some of us, one that expresses a pan-Africanist worldview. deeceevoice 17:19, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I thought propernouns were always capitalized. --Atticus 08:36, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

Afro American

Doesn't the term Afro American (Afro-American) refer to people of direct or indirect African decent? (e.g. an American whose parents are Cuban and Jamican would be an Afro American as would someone straight from Africa) Dustin Asby 15:30, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

AN OBJECTIVE, COMMONSENSE EXPLANATION OF THE TERM

Raising children to be "color-blind"? WHAT?!!! If you suspect your child is color-blind, a visit to the ophthalmologist is in order.

"... though it is sometimes (incorrectly) used to refer to black Americans whether of African descent or not." WHAT?!!! Name me ONE black person who isn't African in origin? There isn't ONE. Even Australian aboriginies, folks from New Guinea (even East Indians) are black because their ancestors came straight out of Africa. They are part of the African diaspora. (But you can leave out India, if you want. That's a rather lengthy discussion.) This statement GOES when I have a moment. It makes no sense.

Deleted: "... , though it is sometimes (incorrectly) used to refer to all black Americans, whether of African descent or not." (Couldn't bear for it to remain a minute longer.) deeceevoice 16:43, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Also deleted -- that stuff about it being considered offensive, because such attitudes stem from ignorance and, possibly, racism. Also, because the initial definition reads more cleanly stated as simple fact. The nuances surrounding the term, as well as the contentions, are described amply enough later in the article. Besides, I found the wording offensive. deeceevoice 16:55, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It shouldn't be necessary, but, given the depths to which the discussion has degenerated, I feel I must state the obvious. There is a natural human need to define oneself in terms of one's ethnicity and all that entails: shared/common history, physical appearance, food, language, history, customs, etc. In a nation so diverse as ours, it has not been sufficient simply to call oneself an "American." Ethnically, it means little in a nation of immigrants. The universe of compatriots is simply too large, too diverse, to be meaningful on a level that imparts a sense of personal or group identity.

The term "American" has currency/meaning, perhaps not only, but certainly primarily, in the sphere of politics and international relations, when "American" is intended to evoke some sort of esprit des corps to accomplish a political objective, or sets the group apart from citizens of the rest of the world and their nation-states, with their different histories, systems of government and interests and policies, both domestically and internationally. For this very reason, "American" has increased resonance in times of national crisis or war.

But in day-to-day matters, there is the long-standing practice in the U.S. that the nation's many and disparate ethnic groups name themselves for their geographic points of origin -- or those of their ancestors -- as "hyphenated Americans": "Italian-American," "Irish-American," "Polish-American," "Chinese-American," "Cuban-American." In fact, it remains a practice -- most notably in Italian families -- to refer to themselves as "Italians," regardless of how many generations they may be removed from Italy.

The label "African-Amercan" is in keeping with this tradition. Folks who have a problem with it are simply employing a double standard. Doubtless, few, if any, of them would presume to take any other ethnic group to task for their misguided, "ignorant" approach to self-identification.

"African-American" refers to the relatively few black Africans who arrived in the original 13 colonies as free men and women or indentured servants in the days of the U.S.'s earliest settlement by non "native peoples," and primarily those who survived the Middle Passage as human chattel and their descendants. Because of the circumstances of our capture, confinement and deculturation, most of us cannot trace our ancestry back to specific nations as can those early Europeans who came to this country, or as the many waves of immigrants thereafter. We cannot claim a specific nation, so we claim our continent of origin, Africa.

Who else legitimately can use the label is up for debate. I generally do not use the term to refer to black Caribbean-Americans as African-American. While their ancestors, indeed, survived the Middle Passage, it is far more useful to refer to them as "Jamaican-American," etc. The general rule in the matter of ethnic self-identification is "the more specific, the better." Again, "African-American" is nonspecific by necessity, not by choice. Nor are immigrants from the African continent generally referred to as "African-Amercans" -- for the same reason. Likewise, they are "Ethiopian-Americans," "Nigerian-Americans," etc. Again, the more specific, the better. Because most people naturally have a sense of pride in their homelands (nations of origin), the issue of African immigrants calling themselves African-Americans doesn't usually arise -- unless it is a matter of filling out government forms, which generally do not provide nation-of-origin choices on forms. Perhaps because of the concept of race and race relations in this nation's history, and because of the social, economic and political dynamics of race and racism, it is deemed sufficient to determine who is black and who isn't (except for Hispanic black folks, who may choose "Latino" on Census forms.)

Non-black "Africans," like Teresa Heinz Kerry, do not qualify as African-Americans in any case. They can be Mozambiquan-American, South African-American, even Portuguese-American, but most certainly NOT African-American. Like all other immigrants to this nation, they can be identified by their countries of origin.

There are other, more political and ideological reasons for the use of the term, but this explanation should suffice for now. deeceevoice 16:22, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Also deleted:

"African Americans are seen as the most oppressed and disadvantaged racial group in North America, along with Native Americans and Hispanics. African-American males are more likely to be imprisoned or sentenced to death than any other demographic group, especially between the ages of 20 and 39. In addition, African American public school students are most likely to be assigned to special-education classes or get suspended or expelled from school. Female African-American public school students make the lowest SAT scores of any demographic group."

Where the hell does this fit into a definition of the term? I checked "Italian American." There's only a passing reference to the stereotype of this group and their connections with organized crime. Native Americans -- there's no reference to their I.Q. scores or high alcoholism (or Irish-Americans either, for that matter, with regard to highly disproportionate rates of alcoholism) or poverty. We get this crap and a sidebar reference to notable African-Americans. Italian-Americans get a pass on the Mafia, drug running, mob violence/hitmen and racketeering and a listing of prominent Italian-Americans on the same page. This is absolute crap. So, out it goes. Period. deeceevoice 18:07, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

---

Further, that this article focuses primarily on attacking the term "African- American" by uncritically advancing every ignorant opinion on it under the sun, with very little substantive explanation of the validity of the reasons the term exists, or its context in American culture and history; and that it takes great pains to describe African-Americans as semiliterate, criminal, and abysmally disadvantaged -- in terms of failure and NOTHING ELSE -- speaks volumes about the skewed perceptions of blacks held by whites, the pervasiveness of racism, the condescension of the ongoing negative stereotyping of African-Americans, the cluelessness of well-meaning and not-so-well-meaning whites, the power of world techno-media -- and the chasm between black and white in this nation. In this manner, the article is more informative of the mind-set of its contributors than of its intended subject matter.

When contrasted with the Wikipedia treatment of equivalent topics dealing with other ethnic groups, the ham-handed approach and sometimes clearly racist viewpoints (in the discussion, particularly) in evidence herein are outrageous on their face. Where is the lengthy examination of the debate about the use of "Indian" or "Native American," the trashing of Indians as "ignorant" of their heritage because they accept the term "Indian" -- because, after all, it is purely a misnomer by some clueless, lost WHITE guy in a boat? Where is the endless, ad nauseam debate over "Latino," "Hispanic" and "Spanish," citing every stupid misconception, every ignorant, irrelevant opinion on the matter? Where's the part where THOSE terms are held up to scrutiny and ridicule? Where's the examination of the criminality, violence, alcoholism and educational failure of members of other ethnic groups as though it DEFINES them and the entirety of their accomplishment (or lack thereof)? Where is the examination of the massive criminality of white folks? Let's see: the slave trade; lynchings and race riots; Native American genocide; reservations and internment camps; land theft on a massive, worldwide scale; imperialism; Hiroshima; Nagasaki; widespread discrimination/racism/white supremacy/terrorism/oppression directed against people of color around the globe; "pacification" in Vietnam/My Lai; silence/cooperation/support of any number of ruthless, fascist, racist violent regimes to shore up Western, white hegemony and protect multinational corporations? Gee. I must have missed that part! Perhaps someone can direct me to the relevant passages under the respective ethnic listings on Wikipedia. (And, no, this is not a "rant." I'm dead serious. Somebody, SHOW me.)

That such an unbalanced portrayal/characterization of African-Americans could be considered even remotely appropriate outside of Stormfront is -- even for a cynic such as me -- utterly astonishing. And these very same contributors would swear to high heaven they're not racist; they're "color-blind," and become self-righteously indignant and downright hostile if the suggestion were made that the entry under "African-American" was at any time insulting and outrageously, blatantly, unabashedly RACIST. KMBA!deeceevoice 09:15, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Should we mention that similar terms are not used to describe racial groups in countries where dual nationality is permitted? In Britain African-British would mean someone with citizenship of both an African country and Britain, just as French-British would mean someone with citizenship of France and Britain. -- Chris Q 11:46, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No. IMO, it is irrelevant. What is under discussion is a label describing African-Americans -- not the British. Their naming patterns are not at all relevant to this discussion. What IS relevant, however, are the points I've raised about the American custom of "hyphenated Americans." When I have an opportunity, I intend to restate what I've written in "Discussion" about that and other matters. I seem to be the only African-American particpating in this discussion, and I appear to have a better grasp of the rationales behind the name in the first place. There is a lot of discussion in the article why folks think the term is silly -- and in this discussion, for example, the astoundingly idiotic charge (from someone who has demonstrated a profound absence of knowledge of African-American culture) that African-Americans are too "ignorant" of our own heritage to know what ethnic group to claim correctly. Therefore we don't "deserve" to use the term "African." But there is precious little in explication of the appellation. But rest assured I will do so after I dispense with a couple of very pressing deadlines. deeceevoice 13:47, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough, though this does affect non-American's perception of the term. To people from countries where hyphenated nationalities represent dual citizenships (which I think might be most English-speaking countries outside the USA) it sounds as if it means "not completely American", which is obviously not what it means in the USA at all. -- Chris Q 15:41, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

And that is precisely why some INTELLIGENT discussion of the phenomenon of hyphenated Americans, as I've already pointed out, is a glaring omission from this piece. It seems clear many of this article's authors are more preoccupied with stating in pseudo-objective language their varied and several objections to the term and "ranting" about black folks, rather than explaining why the term "African-Amercan" exists. Which is fine. The intellectual dishonesty, hostility and and outright ignorance with which these "contributors" have approached the subject under discussion do Wikipedia a disservice. I'll simply explain it myself employing the wording I've already used to explain the phenomenon in this "discussion." That should clear up any confusion on the part of non-Americans -- and shut up some of the obviously mentally challenged "contributors" to and commentators on this article. deeceevoice 16:11, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The right approach, especially on such an incendiary topic as this, would be to excise unsourced statements of opinion (which would currently seem to be nearly all of them, from a quick glance at the article). i.e. everything of the form "some people feel," "some proponents say," and so on. For any widely held opinion, or argument put forth by a prominent entity, it should not be difficult to find a specific source to cite. See also Wikipedia:Cite sources. (For example, according to bartleby.com, Jesse Jackson was a major proponent of the term in the 1980s; it would be good to quote his arguments from that time.) —Steven G. Johnson 21:03, Sep 2, 2004 (UTC)

It's completely unnecessary to dig up some moldy, old quote from Jesse Jackson as gospel. After all, is there some white overseer whose word is law we should consult on matters related to white folks? Some head honcho to whose superior wisdom we should bow on all matters Latino? No. That tack is old and played out. We don't need it. As with any other Wikipedia article, balanced treatment, impartiality and informed contribution are what is needed. But agreed, Steven, on the obliteration of the "he said, she said" garbage. Like I said, blow this mutha up and start from square one -- well, maybe square two. :-p deeceevoice 10:06, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I never suggested that Jesse Jackson was "gospel", and your response is offensive. When discussing history, it's always appropriate to quote original sources when possible, and Jackson was a prominent proponent of the term in the 80's and was reportedly a key figure in popularizing it — quoting the arguments of a prominent figure from that time is helpful to describe its history. Moreover, any thorough discussion of this term should describe people's opinions on it...not anonymous opinions like we have now, but rather quoted commentary by prominent figures involved in public debate over the term. Jackson is unarguably one such figure, whom I gave as an example. —Steven G. Johnson 15:20, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

Anybody got any C4?

No, folks. "negro" -- with a small "n" was NEVER a term of respect -- which is why it's been capitalized since the 1940s. Virtually every time I open up this article, I discover something off-the-wall I either overlooked or that has been added. This entire article is a mess. There's so much wrong with it -- misinformation, outright stupidity. It's hard to know where to begin. Somebody should just blow the damned thing up and start over again. Terrible. Ugh! And I wouldn't have said so before reading this article, but there are just some things most white folks shouldn't attempt. Rapping is one. Authoring a credible entry on "African-American" certainly appears to be a second. E.g., "negro" is an abbreviation of "negroid"? Gimme a break. The purported abbreviation appeared 300 years before what has been explained as its root word. Please, people. If you don't KNOW, don't write anything. After all, there are plenty of credible sources with scholarly information on any number of subjects. NOTHING is preferable to blatantly racist, or incorrect "information."deeceevoice 23:28, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC) ---

FURTHERMORE, it is a pointless and arrogant exercise for any outsider to criticize any group's self-referential terminology; what outsiders think of such terms is largely, if not wholly, irrelevant to the group so self-identified. Further, the contributors to this "discussion" and to this piece of crap of an article should be well aware of the obvious -- that the purpose of the term "African-American" is to identify a group of individuals who share a very particular common heritage, common history, and common experience; whose very presence in this nation is a result of the venality and depravity of whites and, in part, the WHITE fabrication of the notion of "race"; and whose many and various members -- regardless of their socioeconomic status -- in some way see and/or feel the weight of that shared history as an everpresent reality on a daily basis. It is further equally silly and mind-numbingly presumptuous for any outsider -- and most especially the descendants of the people who brought that group here on the basis of "race"in the first place, whose near ancestors and, likely, who themselves have participated in and benefited from a system of oppression and exploitation of the self-identified group, again on the basis of "race"-- to criticize any self-referential term of the group because it is "'race'-based" and therefore doesn't fit in with their ridiculously false/hollow, utopian notions of "color-blind" nomenclature that have no relevant precedent in any Amercan context, let alone in human history. Time for a reality check, folks.deeceevoice 09:58, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The Fuse is Lit

Deleted as NPOV: "Some critics contend that its widespread acceptance by many whites is due to their desire to see blacks like other ethnic groups who came to the United States by choice and ignore the implications of slavery and the Middle Passage."deeceevoice 18:34, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Deleted until all this tiresome "he said, she said" can be straightened out:

==Term criticism and alternative names==

Early proponents of the term African American believed it increased the status of black Americans because of its parallels with terms for other ethnic groups, e.g. Irish American and Asian American.

The use of the term African American has often been criticized as unreasonable political correctness. Today, using the word black is accepted by most, and some actually object to African American. One objection is that it incorrectly implies that all Africans are black. A white immigrant from Africa (for example a South African of european decent; prominent examples include musician Dave Matthews and actress Charlize Theron) could technically be considered an "African American," but because of the term's existing racial context, would find it hard to seriously use the title. In addition, even if some of one's remote ancestors descend from Africa, a dark-skinned immigrant from, for example Haiti or Cuba (or even a European nation) might prefer not to be identified as African, and some dark skinned imigrants to the United States from Africa believe the term should be reserved for them to provide a separate identity from black Americans who are descendants from slaves. The situation is further complicated in that some believe that black immigrants should be referenced by their country of origin (for example, "Haitian-American" or "Ethiopian-American") and that the term "African American" should be reserved for descendants of slaves.

Another criticism of the term African American has been that the term European American has not been widely used to replace the term white when referring to Caucasians, leading to inequity of terminology. In addition, African American assumes that the person referred to is a US citizen. Yet at any given time a substantial number of black people in the United States are foreigners. It is obvious that these individuals are not African Americans.deeceevoice 18:41, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

--- Also deleted:

The word "méamelouc" became the standard label for someone whose ancestry was one-sixteenth sub-Saharan African, while a one-thirty-second mix was a "demi-méamelouc". The word "sang-melé" covered someone who had at least one known ancestor from Africa, but was less than one-thirty-second Black. Someone who has three-fourths black (the progeny of a mulatto and a pure African, ideally) was traditionally called a "griffe".

These terms were never used commonly in the U.S. -- if at all -- to refer to black folks. They, therefore, are irrelevant to a discussion of the term "African-American" and its evolution.deeceevoice 18:58, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rewrite?

Just a suggestion, but some people have previously re-written "messy" articles by creating a /New sub-topic, writing the article there and then overwriting the current version when the rewrite is complete. Other authors may then re-add things that they felt should not have been omitted, but in general they respect the new structure and integrity of the article. [User:LordSuryaofShropshire] did this for the [Hinduism] page -- Chris Q 10:28, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That's precisely what I've already suggested. Blow it up and start over again.deeceevoice 12:33, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've made some changes. I think they're subtle, but they seemed important at the time. --Atticus 02:32, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

It would be nice if you had a talk page deecee. Sorry, didn't know you were editing at the same time.

I completely disagree with your editing of this sentence "Because indigenous Africans tend to have very dark skin pigmentation, the term typically is not used to apply to Africans with lighter skin pigments, such as Semitic peoples from northern Africa or white immigrants to the African continent and their descendants." The concept behind any of these race related terms is skin pigmentation, and at least some mention of the fact that Africans are not only not black but share a wide variety of pigmentations is warrented. --Atticus 08:55, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

SubSaharan Africans frequently identify themselves as "Nations" based on tribal, clan, or family name. I thought it would be appropriate to allude to the fact. --Atticus 09:07, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

Another Suggestion

I've browsed the discussion and can actually see both points of view. Please forgive me for not defending or denigrating either. My suggestion is that those involved in the discussion look at other encyclopedic entries under the term African American.

I've browsed similar entries on Wikipedia itself and inserted comments in the discussion about how those ethnic groups have been treated. There clearly are glaring disparities, both in the article and in the discussion, in their treatment.deeceevoice 16:50, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I thought I signed the above comment, but apparently not. I've read the article once, but I'll read it again. I don't see any disparities as particularly glaring. It reads as awkward, and considering this discussion page its not surprising.

I'd like to offer a little insite. I call myself a Black Man and perfer to refer to "African Americans" as Blacks. My preference is based on the fact that White Americans are refered to as White and rarely ever British/German/Dutch/Spanish/French/Italian Americans unless they are recent imigrants. In an ideal world I'd like to be called an American on site and not have that qualified in any way, which is a liberty White Americans currently enjoy, but that will not happen today and probably not tomorrow. I never correct people who use the term African American, and other than making it a point to refer to myself and other Blacks as Blacks, I never address the issue.

I don't identify with the term African American, but I don't find it derogatory so I consider this article to be a discussion of a term that has been used as a device in the "Race Issue" in America, which is itself a device in the "Labor Issue" in America, which is a key device in the "Class Issue" in America.

From a writers point of view the article could use some smoothing over. It doesn't seem to flow. I'll read it again and look for glaring disparities. Atticus 12:41, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)