Talk:Criticism of Islam

• Archive 1 (New Article - Stoning Imagess)
• Archive 2

Contradiction

Some non-Muslim critics, in explaining the beliefs of these scholars, say that their conscience pushes them away from the alleged instructions of God as revealed in the Qur’an. However, these Muslim scholars believe that their understanding is properly based on Qur'anic verses and Hadiths.

Islamic scholars claim that there are several verses of the Qur'an and several quotes attributed to Muhammad (Hadith) that bide believers to act kindly towards women and not to beat them . However, many critics of Islam believe that this Qur'anic verse is responsible for poor treatment of some Muslim women in Islamic countries and even in Western immigrant populations. They also claim that "the command to beat disobedient wives" that they believe to exist within the Qur'an "is founded upon a woman’s subservient / secondary status in Islam."

--Aminz 23:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Some non-Muslim critics, in explaining the beliefs of these scholars, say that their conscience pushes them away from the alleged instructions of God as revealed in the Qur’an.

is an absurdity: Ibn Khatir in his commentary says: "However, the beating should be dharbun ghayru nubrah, i.e. light, according to the Hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim, on the authority of Jabir,"

I'll remove the whole thing. --Aminz 00:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad sub-article work

Instead of working on the Muhammad sub-article in isolation, I've decided to integrate the work piece-by-piece into the main article, and only move it into the sub-article when it's all done. This will prevent my work from 'going stale' in isolation and will also allow it to be immediately improved by others. I started by consolidating the Muhammad 'Satanic connection' criticisms and responses. I'm going by the rule-of-thumb to try to keep the amount of space dedicated to the criticisms equal to the amount given for the responses (and I think this is a good rule for others to follow as well). I'm also strictly sourcing everything. - Merzbow 03:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Merzbow,

re: "I'm going by the rule-of-thumb to try to keep the amount of space dedicated to the criticisms equal to the amount given for the responses (and I think this is a good rule for others to follow as well)."

In some cases it is not possible to do this. For example, how can one answer to the 'Satanic connection' response in one sentence (noting that the criticism is just a sentence).

Now, my idea is to prepare two versions of the responses/criticisms : a short one and a more detailed one. The short one can remain here but the detailed one can be moved to the sub-articles. --Aminz 03:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that when we create the sub-article we still need to keep a shorter version of the most important criticisms/responses in the main article. Certainly in some cases the shorter versions may have to give a bit of extra space to either the criticism or the response section to do justice to the arguments. - Merzbow 05:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Merzbow, I am surprised how the source you provided supports: "he was, at various times, inspired by Satan himself."

The text uses harsher words: "Satan is everywhere in Islam. He's in the Qur'an, in the prophet, in the bodies of believers, in their homes, in Muhammad's harem, and in his booty."

The context of your text is clear:

Some critics attempt to discredit Muhammad as a divine messenger by claiming that he was, at various times, inspired by Satan himself.[36] As evidence, they point to early Islamic histories that recount how Satan fooled Muhammad into adding two lines to Sura 53 of the Qur'an, lines that implore followers to hope for intercession by three pagan goddesses. The histories then say that these so-called 'Satanic Verses' were shortly afterward repudiated by Muhammad at the behest of the angel Gabriel.

I can not see how source 36 supports this text. Can you please explain?

I think there are two distinct groups of critics: 1. Those who believe Qur'an is the literal word of Satan (i.e. Muhammad was possessed by Satan) 2. Criticisms starting from the Satanic verses.

Source for 1) --> source 36

Source for 2) --> James Arlandson, a Christian critic of Islam, holds that these supposed Satanic influences cast doubt on the divine origin of Muhammad's revelations as a whole. He thinks that if Satan had inspired Muhammad to reveal a few tainted verses, he could also have inspired him to reveal many more.

--Aminz 04:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll make a change to distinguish the type of criticism made by source 36. - Merzbow 05:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Merzbow, it seems you have done a lot of research! I appreciate it! --Aminz 05:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate your hard work digging up some of these difficult-to-find references also.- Merzbow 05:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Slavery

Lets have this section in the talk page until the entire section is properly referenced. Merzbow you can add it once you are finished with you research. Thanks.

Islam has come under criticism for permitting slavery, a practice that was a common feature of pre-Islamic pagan Arabia.

The Qur’an explicitly allows and regulates slavery. Muhammad is documented as having kept many slaves. Qur'anic regulation made prisoners of war the source of slaves. Prisoners of war included not only captured enemy soldiers but also captured civilians. For instance, it allows Muslims to take civilian women of enemy tribes or nations as slaves , and furthermore to consider any marriage bond dissolved by their enslavement.

While the Qur’an encourages the liberation of slaves under certain circumstances, it does not require it except as expiation for certain sins. Both the Qur'an and hadith enjoin kindness to slaves (^{[Quran 4:36]}). The Qur'an in general commands uncompromised justice (^{[Quran 4:135]}), enjoins restraining anger and the pardoning of men (^{[Quran 3:134]}). According to the Qur'an, amends for serious crimes could be made in part by freeing a slave (^{[Quran 4:92]}). According to the hadiths, the emancipation of a slave is a recommended act that would gain the person freeing the slave some measure of forgiveness for past sins. The Qur'an encourages Muslims to give slaves the opportunity to buy (back) their freedom if they so demand (^{[Quran 24:33]}). The former text also allows marriage between a master and their slave, if the latter is considered to be religiously pious in nature (^{[Quran 24:32]}). Slaves could also earn their freedom by teaching 10 illiterate Muslims how to read and write.

Slaves were not considered inferiors to their masters in theological terms. There is a hadith which claims that Muhammad said: Your slaves are your brothers and God has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them (Bukhari Template:Bukhari-usc). Masters were commanded to address their slaves by "My young man" or "My young woman" rather than "My slave" or "My slave-woman" and slaves were commanded to address their masters by "My master" or "My mistress" rather than "My lord" (Abu-Dawud Template:Abudawud-usc). Muslims argue that the concept of equality of all men is expressed in the Qur'an ^{[Quran 49:13]}.

The Qur’an permits sexual intercourse with female slaves. Critics of Islam argue that the Qur'anic text, in verses ^{[Quran 23:1]}, actually permits the rape of female slaves. Verses ^{[Quran 23:1]} state that: The believers … who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or whom their right hands possess ... are free from blame. Verses ^{[Quran 70:29]} repeat the same idea. "Those whom their right hands possess" has always been understood to refer to slaves and captives. Some critics of traditional Islamic scholars claim that “they also approved that every male master had the right to force any of his female slaves to have sex with him.” According to some critics, Qur'anic ambiguity on such a matter is itself evidence of human origins for the Qur’an. It is claimed by them that if these verses are not considered to justify rape of slaves, they still appear to justify having sex with slaves.

On the other hand, the following verse seems to contradict at least one of the former viewpoints: Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful (^{[Quran 24:33]}). However, some critics interpret this verse as a condemnation solely of slave-owners who forced their slaves into prostitution for profit. In addition, they point out that it promises forgiveness for Muslims who do it.

See Religion and slavery for more information about slavery in Islam.

 «₪Mÿš†íc₪»  ^(T) 05:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to press the issue, if only because I have time to work on this tomorrow. This actually shouldn't be that hard to fix since the other article can be mined for the proper sources to the standard Muslim responses; a bit more detail is needed on the criticism, but sources for that are readily available. - Merzbow 06:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll finish this section tomorrow. I'm using only good, published sources on this; I'm even going to the library tomorrow to verify some pages numbers in one of Maududi's commentaries. Merzbow 04:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Wonderful! --Aminz 04:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

James Arlandson

Merzbow, James Arlandson seems to self interpret the Qur'an. He is not giving any reference to any Muslim commentary. I have read his article and think he holds some unorthodox Islamic views. His interpretation of verse 22:52 just seemed too strange to me. It seemed to me that he is putting words in the mouth of Qur'an. I may be wrong but I expect him to either be an Islamic scholar (which he is not) or quotes Islamic scholars. That article has no cites. It is just an "email" response to someone. Do you think it is reliable? --Aminz 08:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Gary Miller is no more qualified and his article also doesn't have references. I don't think we can expect to find sources for criticisms and responses that will ever be as 'good' as we would like, simply because professors in universities rarely engage in this sort of debate. As long as we present both sides of the argument using the best sources we can find at the time I think we're doing well. - Merzbow 16:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

But Gary Miller is not self-interpreting the Qur'an. There is a big difference. But anyway, my position is that yes, we should get rid of Gray Miller quotes as well in the revised version. --Aminz 18:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I am either removing or replacing quotes from Gary Miller with better ones. Please remove or replace the criticisms made by James Arlandson. --Aminz 19:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, so far, Arlandson's article is the best I've found that outlines this criticism explicitly. Watt's writings simply argue for the historicity of the Satanic Verses story; as a historian he doesn't judge the likelihood of actual Satanic influence on Muhammad. If I find a better source I'll replace Arlandson, but to be complete, we need this particular criticism represented in the article by somebody, because it is very widely made by Christian opponents of Islam. Merzbow 20:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

True, I agree that it is widely made, but not via "satanic verses" argument. They simply derive it from Jesus's warnings about the "false prophets", that the false prophets can even do miracles and so on. They argue that since Muhammad has deprived too many people from getting saved by the blood of Jesus, he must have been inspired by satan. Among all these critics, I honestly doubt, one percentage of them have ever heard of the "satanic verses" argument. I am willing to give up all the Gary Miller quotes at the expense of avoiding critic’s "self-interpretations" of the Qur'an.

Please take your time in replacing the Arlandson's arguments, but please do it as soon as possible. --Aminz 20:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, I took out almost all the Arlandson stuff and reference him just in a single sentence now that makes it clear that his view is only one among many. This section in general was too long before related to its importance, I think it's the right size now. - Merzbow 21:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Merzbow. --Aminz 04:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I found a source by noted scholar William Montgomery Watt that backs up some of this; I'll add him in. - Merzbow 17:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. --Aminz 18:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Merzbow, Do you think Arlandson states some parts of Qur'an are inspired by God and the rest are inspired by Satan, or that some parts are written by himself and the rest are inspired by Satan? --Aminz 05:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I reworded that sentence to better reflect Arlandson's argument. - Merzbow 22:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Noted Islamic scholar

I think "Noted Islamic scholar William Montgomery Watt " is better to be changed to "William Montgomery Watt". He is a noted scholar, but it is not common to provide such backgrounds, I think. --Aminz 05:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

OK. Merzbow 21:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticism from the Biblical point of view

The section is badly written. "The obvious response from Muslims would be.."? An encyclopedia doesn't attempt to predict a response. Also, the Bible is not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an. Muslims believe that a piece of scripture (Injil) was revealed to Jesus, as the Torah was to Moses. Muslims do NOT hold St. Peter or Paul or the unknown authors of the other books as having any religious authority. His Excellency... 19:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that section needs to be re-written. --Aminz 19:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, Muslims do not acknowlege the gospels as rendered by Mark, Matthew, Luke or John. They believe there was such a thing as the "Gospel of Jesus". The Quran doesn't acknowlege the notion that third parties were 'inspired' to write scripture after Jesus' death. His Excellency... 19:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

NOTICE "His excellency" is Amibidhrohi's new username.Timothy Usher 22:43, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The "some" , "all" question

I have a question in general. How can we prove that "Islam" says something? I would like to somehow prove that according to Islam "slaves were not considered inferior to their masters in theological terms."

There is a wealth of material on this (here is a few):

049.013 YUSUFALI: O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

some Quotes attributed:

People from the time of Adam onwards are as equal as the teeth of a comb. Arabs are not superior to non Arabs, nor are Redskinned people better than Blacks. No superiority or virture exists except in terms of Piety.

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: None of you must say: "My slave" (abdi) and "My slave-woman" (amati), and a slave must not say: "My lord" (rabbi or rabbati). The master (of a slave) should say: "My young man" (fataya) and "My young woman" (fatati), and a slave should say "My master" (sayyidi) and "My mistress" (sayyidati), for you are all (Allah's slave and the Lord is Allah, Most High.

Any feedback? --Aminz 00:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, we can't prove it, all we can do is say that this is a certain POV and give the most notable arguments that have been made supporting this POV. I think the Bukhari hadith the article is quoting now is good support. That latter quote you list looks like a hadith also, if you can find a source that mentions that hadith then it could be quoted in the article. I don't think 049.013 is as useful as the other quotes since it doesn't explicitly mention slaves. In the end, I think we should be careful to only quote verses and hadiths if we can also cite a commentator who says that this particular verse or hadith is relevant to the subject (like Qutb). - Merzbow 01:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I used the latter hadith in the rewrite of the Muhammad 'Slaves' section, it fits in well there. Thanks for pointing me to it. - Merzbow 04:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I may apply some minor edits later. --Aminz 05:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Merzbow, the quote you found from "Rodney Stark" is an excellent criticism by itself. Thanks! I wish the critics of Islam were bright like you to know how they should criticize something. Please keep working on the article, we need you here. --Aminz 05:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. It's actually pretty fun doing this research. The one thing I'm having a hard time with is finding decent commentaries on the hadith. For the Quran, I have Yusuf Ali and now Maududi (among others). Do you know of a good source of scholarly hadith commentary? - Merzbow 06:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I exactly have the same problem with Hadiths and wanted to ask someone! BTW, Do you have online access to Yusuf Ali (or Maududi)? I have only online access to the commentary of Grand Ayatollah Makarim Shirazi, a shia jurist. That's almost all I have. --Aminz 06:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, I don't have access to the Shia collection of Hadiths. It differs from Bukhari, etc. That's my other problem. --Aminz 06:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You can get access to Yusuf Ali's commentary via the Amazon 'view inside this book' feature. Maududi not online, the only way I can read his stuff is at the local library. I think I'll go to one of the Islamic message boards and ask.- Merzbow 17:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

proposed section merge

I think the Muhammad Muslim response section 'Response to the claim that Muhammad copied the Qur'an from the Bible' should be merged into the 'The origins of the Qur'an/Claim of Divine Origin' subsection, since it's talking about exactly the same subject. Agree/disagree? - Merzbow 01:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking it could be merged into the uncreated "sources of Qur'an" section.... Which one do you think is better? --Aminz 01:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, I forgot about that proposal. That sounds like a good idea. - Merzbow 01:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

New section proposal :Intolerance of other faiths

In regions that are dominated by Muslims , the houses of worship of other faiths are often targetted and destroyed [8][9][10]:

• Video of Albanian Muslim mob destroying and burning a Christian Church

--CltFn 05:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Christians used to lynch black people in the United States. Alleged 'witches' were burned in Europe and in the US as well. Should they be listed on the "Criticisms of Christianity" page? His Excellency... 06:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

CltFn, if you can back up your argument using traditional Muslim commentaries and western academics, your addition will be a good one. --Aminz 05:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, please note that the criticism should be directed to *Islam* and not particular *Muslims* Thanks --Aminz 05:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Something like this, if relevant, would probably go into the 'Alleged discrimination' section, which needs some work. (It should probably split into two sub-sections, one focusing on women, another on religious minorities with a focus on dhimmi.) But because this article is about criticism of Islam, the incident you mention would only be relevant if you could find some scholarly authority that ties it directly to the religion somehow. - Merzbow 06:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Merzbow, we already have a criticism article focused on dhimmi. I think you can simply refernce it to that article. --Aminz 06:40, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

We should at least give it a couple paragraphs in this article, then direct the user to Dhimmi for more info. Currently we only mention it in passing. It constitutes a large part of the criticism directed towards Islam. - Merzbow 17:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Muslims have protected other houses of worship as well. [11] BhaiSaab ^talk 18:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

My "new section proposal" - Criticism of "critics of Islam"

Filled with material like this:

In a seminal essay on "Islam Through Western Eyes," Professor Edward Said of Columbia University wrote, "I have not been able to discover any period in European or American history since the Middle Ages in which Islam was generally discussed or thought about outside a framework created by passion, prejudice and political interests.

Also,

Said is best known for describing and critiquing "Orientalism," which he perceived as a constellation of false assumptions underlying Western attitudes toward the East.

Any feedback? --Aminz 06:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

For the record, Edward Said was professor of English literature. Pecher ^Talk 09:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It sounds more like a criticism of an approach to criticism. We could create a section after 'history of criticism of Islam' called 'modern approaches to criticism of Islam' that summarizes the general approach critics like Spencer, Warraq, Lewis (in parts) and others are taking, and the response could quote Said, Armstrong, and others who disagree with that approach. - Merzbow 17:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

As you pointed out, Edward Said's quote only deserves a paragraph (or a couple of sentences) at most and not a section. We can subdivide the "history of criticism of islam" into two sub-section: "pre-modern" and "modern". Then I suggest the following to be added to the "modern" section.

In the modern era, European and American Orientalism examine the claims of Islam from a secular and academic perspective. However within academia, the underlying assmptions made in Orientalism is criticized. Edward Said, in an essay "Islam Through Western Eyes," states that the general basis of Orientalism thought forms a study structure in which Islam, as an object of study by west, is placed in an inferior status, and has been looked at with a very special hostility and fear due to many obvious religious, psychological and political reasons all deriving from a sense "that so far as the West is concerned, Islam represents not only a formidable competitor but also a late-coming challenge to Christianity." Said's academic critics such as such as Bernard Lewis , Albert Hourani, Kanan Makiya, Nikki Keddie and Robert Graham Irwin , argued that Said made no attempt to distinguish between the writings of poets such as Goethe (who never even travelled in the East), novelists such as Flaubert (who undertook a brief sojourn in Egypt), discredited mavericks such as Ernest Renan, and serious scholars such as Edward William Lane who were fluent in Arabic and produced work of considerable value.

Today, criticism of Islam and "Islamic" practices have increased markedly in the Western world.

How is this? --Aminz 20:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it may be focusing too much on Said and his critics. The way I see this section as being structured is first naming some modern critics of Islam and their general approach (which is mostly that Islam should be compared with the West by Western values), then it would mention Said and others who agree with his approach (which seems to be that we are wrong to judge Islam using a Western value structure). We probably don't need to mention Said's critics specifically. - Merzbow 20:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, your idea is the best. But I wonder how we can find the variety of different approaches within western academics. Have a look at Henri Lammens. It is universally acknowledged "that Lammens provided the study of the sira with a new basis". But I don't know what he exactly did. Sir William Muir, I think also brought new ideas. In the satanic verses, it says: "Since Muir the historicity of this episode (whether as an actual discrete event, or as a dramatization of a longer process of accommodation and then confrontation with Meccan polytheism) has been largely accepted by Western scholars of Islam." (BTW, if you can find references for the claim that the episode is largely accepted by Western scholars of Islam, please add it to the article). We don't need to be worry about the length. This section can have its own sub article. --Aminz 20:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You're right, length isn't so much of a worry, but we do need to keep it balanced and structured well at whatever length it is. For now, we may want to begin this section with just a paragraph touching on the general modern critical approach briefly (naming a few names), then after that a paragraph touching on the modern apologetic approach (naming Said and others). How about I try writing the first paragraph tonight and put it on the talk page so you see my general approach, then you can take a shot at doing the second paragraph? - Merzbow 22:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That sounds great! --Aminz 23:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is what I've written:

Modern criticism of Islam comes from people who can be grouped into three broad categories.

The first category consists of non-Muslim scholars raised in the West who publicly state that Islam falls short when judged by Western, and sometimes explicitly Christian, values and standards of conduct. Noted members of this group are Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, and Bat Ye'or. Robert Spencer is especially vocal, having written many books, one titled The Myth of Islamic Tolerance: How Islamic Law Treats Non-Muslims.

In the second category are former Muslims who believe that Islam is the primary cause for what they see as the mistreatment of minority groups in Muslim countries and communities. Almost all (if not all) of them now live in the West, many under assumed names because of a perceived danger to themselves. Such people include Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ibn Warraq, and Ali Sina. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has focused on the alleged plight of Muslim women, saying that "they aspire to live by their faith as best they can, but their faith robs them of their rights."

The third category consists of scholars who do not self-identify as critics of Islam but who are not afraid to criticize aspects of Islam which they imply are lacking in some regard. Bernard Lewis is perhaps the most well-known member of this group. For example, he holds that unbelievers, slaves, and women are considered fundamentally inferior to other groups of people under Islamic law..

Good people to put in your response would probably be Edward Said, Karen Armstrong, and John Esposito. Definitely some modern Islamic scholars should be mentioned, but I'm not as familiar with them. - Merzbow 03:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Wonderful! You did a great job Merzbow! I'll try to do my job ASAP. --Aminz 18:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Merzbow, could you please go ahead and add your text to the article. I am kind of busy and slow. I will do my turn whenever I can, but meanwhile, please post your paragraph. Thanks again for your great job! --Aminz 06:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I added it. I also added part of your paragraph on Edward Said at the end to serve as a starting point for a paragraph about those who respond to the critics. - Merzbow 07:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Merzbow. --Aminz 07:34, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Modern criticism of islam

Merzbow, just a quick question: Do you know if John Esposito is a Muslim? Thanks --Aminz 02:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I looked on Google for a while and nothing I found addressed the question of what his current religion is. His Wiki bio says that he was raised Catholic, so in the absence of any contrary information we should probably assume he's not a Muslim. - Merzbow 06:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is my draft:

Responses come from both Muslim and some Non-Muslim scholars and writers. Such Non-Muslim scholars and writers include William Montgomery Watt, John Esposito and Karen Armstrong. Watt, for example, in his book “Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman” addresses Muhammad’s alleged moral failures. He claims that “Of all the world's great men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad.” Karen Armstrong, tracing what she believes as West's long history of hostility toward Islam, finds in the Muhammad’s teachings a theology of peace and tolerance. Armstrong holds that the "holy war" urged by the Koran alludes to each Muslim's duty to fight for a just, decent society. John Esposito has written many introductory texts on Islam and the Islamic world. He has for example addressed issues like the rise of militant Islam, women veiling, and democracy.

Responses from Muslims has come from many Muslim writers, scholars and comparative religionists such as Ahmad Deedat, Osama Abdallah, Yusuf al-Qaradawi and Gary Miller. Within the academia, responses has come from scholars such as Michael Sells and notably Edward Said who sharply criticized Western scholarship of the East. In an essay Islam Through Western Eyes, he states that the general basis of Orientalist thought forms a study structure in which Islam is placed in an inferior position as an object of study. He claims existence of a very considerable bias in the Orientalist writings as part of the scholar's cultural make-up. He claims Islam has been looked at with a particular hostility and fear due to many obvious religious, psychological and political reasons all deriving from a sense "that so far as the West is concerned, Islam represents not only a formidable competitor but also a late-coming challenge to Christianity."

Any feedback? I have also provided the sources(they are online).--Aminz 02:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That looks great, feel free to add it. Just a few minor nitpicks (Koran -> Qur'an, you should probably make the references conform to the format of others in the article (i.e. include ISBN, italicize titles, etc.)) - Merzbow

people we can quote

Merzbow, Just wondering if we can quote "Ayaan Hirsi Ali", "Ibn Ishaq" and perhaps "Robert Spencer"? On the other side, we had "Islamonline.net", Gary Miller, ...

I believe "Islamonline.net" is reliable since the director of the site is a famous sunni scholar; so his ideas are an example of a modern Muslim scholar. "Ayaan Hirsi Ali", "Ibn Ishaq" and "Robert Spencer" are outspoken critics. Gary Miller is an outspoken apologist but he is not an Islamic scholar. Merzbow, I am fine with quoting critics as long as they do not self interpret Qur’an or Hadith. Assume we find a critic who interprets a verse from Qur’an in a way that nobody among Muslims has ever interpreted. The answer to this critic is clear. But adding that criticism and the Muslim response is doing junk work. We need to be sure that a criticism is worthy enough to answer. For example, Ali Sina claimed that the golden rule is not mentioned in any hadith. I found a Hadith later. And then I asked myself so what? Even before finding the hadith, I knew that this particular criticism is absurd at least at this level. His other criticism that there is discrimination among Muslims and Non-Muslims was worthy though. But I knew that golden rule is widely “known” among Muslims. I am sure he knew the famous quote from Ali ibn abi taleb that “…people are either your brothers in religion or equal with you in creation” because he was raised in Iran.

That’s why I am concerned with the claims the critics make. The same goes with Muslim responses to those critics. Some people just invent answers to critics out of other self interpretations of Qur'an or Hadith. --Aminz 18:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

We do have to tread a fine line here, but since the article is specifically about criticism of Islam, it's our obligation to present the views of the most notable critics of Islam, whether we think they are right or even qualified. Sometimes scholars are also critics, but there are a lot of areas of criticism that professors in the West can't engage in for professional reasons. (You'd never find Bernard Lewis critcising Muhammad for marrying Aisha at a young age). I would never quote Ibn Warraq in any article that's not about criticism - for example, in the main Islam or Aisha articles. But because he's written many books critical of Islam and is very widely published and quoted as a critic, his views need to be represented in this article specifically.

We also have an obligation to present the most notable Muslim responses to the criticisms. And there are many great responses out there (although sometimes they are harder to find since so little Islamic writing is currently being published in the West, which is why we have to rely so heavily on some of these web sites). I am overjoyed to find good Muslim responses to these criticisms, and am willing to look very hard to find them, because one-sided arguments benefit nobody. But in the end, the decision whether or not to believe the criticisms, or the responses, or a little of each, can only be in the mind of the reader. - Merzbow 20:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, fine. --Aminz 23:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)