Talk:Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact

An event mentioned in this article is a June 26 selected anniversary

I miss the pre-history of the Pact, but am not (at least not at the moment) sufficiently knowledgeable on the importance of USSR switching foreign minister Maxim Litvinov for Vyacheslav Molotov, or the long-lasting but slow and ultimately failed negotiations on a similar pact between London/Paris and Moscow.

I think a factual resumé of the driving forces/underlying needs would be of interest.
-- Ruhrjung 01:16 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Now added.
-- Ruhrjung 14:25 10 Jun 2003 (UTC)

It's simple, really. Litvinov was both a Jew and an advocate of an alliance with the western democracies against the Fascist powers. When Stalin became convinced that Britain and France wouldn't fight (although he was wrong about this), he fired Litvinov and replaced him with Molotov, whose foreign policy ideas were consistent with Stalin's--to buy time to get the USSR ready for war, even if it meant making a rotten deal with Hitler to do it. John

What about a paragraph worded:

Litvinov's line, as an advocate of an alliance with the Western democracies against the Fascist powers, seemed less feasible than Molotov's program of buying time to get the Soviet Union ready for war.

--Ruhrjung 10:12, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It's mostly accepted in Polish historiography that Stalin pretend to make deal with western allies only to make pressure at Hitler, when his initial offering to divide Poland were ignored. Waiting for discussion before i will change the article to reflect this opinions.

Also, there is something wrong with one paragraph which ends suddenly in mid of sentence.
szopen

Paragraphs ending in the midsth of sentences are unfortunately not quite uncommon on wikipedia.

If you clearly qualify that opinion as "widely agreed" or "held" or "believed" or... by Polish historians, I think it would be of great value. If you, on the other hand, aspires to claim the Polish view to be nearest to truth, then we are in for troubles and edit wars and more people giving up on wikipdia. I hope you realize this.
--Ruhrjung 09:57, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Of course. I am veteran of multiple edit wars, hardenet combatant, and combatants now that the best thing man can do with war is to avoid it :)
Szopen

I realized in retrospect that I'd commented on your comment from 26 Nov 2003. ;-))) Nevertheless, it seems as if we are in agreement on this point.
--Ruhrjung 15:59, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Stalin speach Aug 19 1939

http://home.swipnet.se/nordling/Stalinspeech.html

By then, Stalin instead possibly approved of Molotov's program to provoke a war between Germany and the Western countries.

This is highly speculative and lacks any proof, should be removed.

see for molotov's comment: http://www.wpunj.edu/~newpol/issue18/jacobs18.htm

Christopher Mahan 19:04, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Are you serious?

Do you really think it is suitable to create an edit-war over that quotation's location to the introduction? Couldn't you come up with some more cooperative solution than re-inserting it repeatedly?
--Ruhrjung 21:35, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

SOV-GER relations

The following excerpt caught my eye: Thereafter, Nazi–Soviet relations began to cool and the clash between the Wehrmacht and the Red Army seemed increasingly unavoidable.. What are the sources for such claim? AFAIK there were no visible signs of cooling, the relations seemed the best of the best. That's why the German attack was such a surprise.. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu tt]] 22:10, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

Well, maybe you are right. I must agree that it was no reciprocal cooling. What fluttered in my brain was a perception of a shift in German propaganda and rumour campaigns in Western countries, combining old anti-Bolshevist concerns, that the Nazis so to say shared with influential layers of the population in the occupied countries, with the own Lebensraum-rhetoric for Ukrainian wheat, etc, etc.

However, factually the relations began to cool in the autumn of 1940. But it might be argued that this was due to provocation from the German side, and that the Russians did what they could to appease and accommodate.

In my opinion (I can not support anything by sources right now) the clash between the Wehrmacht and the Red Army seemed increasingly unavoidable, although only the fewest believed Hitler would wilfully enter into a two-front-war, so the Western front had to be decided first, and peace reached with Britain.

The surprise was the "early launching" - while Germany seemingly still was in need of the Soviet friendship - not a Soviet-German war in principle.
--Ruhrjung 22:43, 2004 Sep 15 (UTC)

Yup, the matter is a bit tricky since the official propaganda on both sides still supported the everlasting friendship, the Border of Peace and such. However, objectively speaking the cooling was rather an overall post factum feeling than a decrease in bilateral relations. Since there were practically no cultural relations (not surprisingly, to say the least), we can only speak of economical cooperation - which lasted until the last minutes of the German-Soviet alliance. I guess everyone heard of the last supply trains crossing the border just minutes before the Wehrmacht started its march eastwards.

Those relations were never very cordial, but IMO they didn't deteriorate much between August 1939 and June 1941. Perhaps a post-war analisis of sources and speeches would suggest that but it was definitely not the case at the time it all happened. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu tt]] 23:24, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

"By early 1941, the Nazi and Soviet empires-in-being shared a common border running through what is now Lithuania and Poland."

Germany controlled millitary and politically, not just Lithuania and Poland, but also Finland, Hungary and Romania, all three countries in war with USSR from June 1941, even in the South and North, the German army was not exactly on the Soviet borders on June 22, 1941. In fact, the Soviet and Nazi empires shared a very long border. It could be possibly that Soviet Union didn't realize (or didn't want to believe) this fact. --Vasile 23:56, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"German allies"

I am not happy with the following sentences:

By early 1941, the Nazi and Soviet empires-in-being shared a common border running through what is now Lithuania, Poland, on the German side being brought Finland, Hungary and Romania.

- Romania had lost Bessarabia, and Finland had lost Karelia, due to unprovoked Soviet aggression. By early 1941, there was definitely nothing like Finland, Hungary and Romania "being brought to" the side of Germany, except the highly realistic fear for new Soviet attacks, which in the case of Finland had led to Germany effectively revoking Soviet's requests for support in case of a new invasion in 1941, and thereby made clear the limits of German interpretations of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact — which of course might be more rightfully viewed as a changed German position. However, this can not rightfully be described by the terms "ally" and "military alliance".

Later, all the Baltic states became Nazi-policy states, under German protection.

- The term "Nazi-policy states" seems obscure to me. A more mainstream view, and probably more correct view, is that Balticum was occupied by Nazi Germany until the Wehrmacht's retreat in 1944.

/Tuomas 08:19, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

At least Lithuania, the greatest state in the region, had a local government, under Germany protection. For clarification, see History of Lithuania. --Vasile 01:45, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, not necessarily so. One can surely say that - for instance Lithuania - was occupied by Germany - with all consequences of this fact. However, one can also say that Lithuania was allied to Germany (or at least large part of the society was). In Poland and Belarus the memory of the Szauliu Sajunga is still present. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu tt]] 09:21, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)

Romania and Hungary had fascist governments and were definitely allied to Germany. The most appropriate term for Finland is "cobelligerent". AndyL 14:14, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Finland allowed Germany to attack the Soviet Union from Finnish territory, starting from June 22, 1941. Finland fought alongside Germany from June 25, 1941 until September 1944. What reasons make you think the appropriate term is "cobelligerant" not "allied"? --Vasile 01:23, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It's simply the term I've heard used to describe Finland. See [1] AndyL 01:32, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Technically", Finland was not an ally of Germany, in sense that they didn'have any piece of paper signed. In 1941, Germany was so powerfull in Europe, it couldn't had partners. Maybe "satellites" is a better word to describe the situation. --Vasile 01:52, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I believe that the reason for the word "cobelligerent" being better than "allied" is the fact that Finland did certainly not share all of Germanys values or objectives. For example, Finland did not send her Jewish citizens to Germany (At least not on a large scale - some individuals may have been sent there). --Kooo 01:37, 2004 Sep 17 (UTC)

Every of these countries had its own objectives in the war. In 1939 the Jewish population of Finland numbered 1,700. Finland have not sent its Jews in Germany, because probably Germany didn't ask that. There is no connection. --Vasile 01:52, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Actually, Germany did ask Finland to deport its Jews and Finland refused. AndyL 02:18, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In 1941, Germany needed Finnish and Romanian military not ideological support. Both of these allies refused to deport their Jews to Germany. For Germany it was more important that these countries were in territorial conflict with Soviet Union, and they had important millitary contribution on the Eastern front. --Vasile 03:16, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Romania was somewhat different than Finland. For one thing 50% of Romanian Jews died in the Holocaust, a large number were deported to "the east" and were sent to concentration camps in the Transnestria region (such as my father and grandfather) - some (my great grandmother for instance) were deported to Auschwitz. While it is true that a lower percentage of Romania's Jews were killed than in states allied with Germany the figure is still significant, particularly when compared to the 0% of Finnish Jews who were killed. It's true that in 1944 the Romanian government refused to continue cooperating with the Holocaust but this was after the tide of the war had changed and because Romania's dictator had been threatened by the Allies who told him if he handed Jews over to the Nazis he'd be held responsible. Romania had had various fascist governments since the mid 1930s which cooperated with the Nazis to various degrees. This was never the case with Finland and while the Romanian policy towards the Jews was opportunistic and depended largely on self-interest (as well, to be fair, the King was opposed to the anti-Jewish policy and apparently did what he could to interfere with it) the Finns never cooperated even when it was in their "interest" to do so and did not have a fascist government or implement any Nazi policies domestically, whether they had to do with the Jews or not. The Continuation War was a resumption of the Winter War which had been fought when the non-aggression pact between the USSR and Germany was still in effect ie it was an attempt to regain lost Finnish territory regardless of who was on whose side in the larger European theatre. I think that's why generally the Finns are regarded as "cobelligerent" rather than Allies of Germany. AndyL 14:02, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Is not here the subject Romanian history, but just to correct few confusions: a) The "figure" is not accurate. For Auschwitz deportation of Romanian Jews, Hungarian government was responsible, after Romanian government ceded a part of Transylvania. b) The first pro-fascist and pro-German Romanian government was installed after the France defeat and Soviet ultimatum, in July 1940. c) It is difficult to credit the King for "opposition" to Romanian official policy until August 23, 1944. There are more few things I disagree, but my suggestion is to move this part to "History of Romania".

The state policy against Jews wasn't used to discriminate participants in war (for example, France). --Vasile 17:03, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also, I believe there was a difference from a military point of view. Romania allowed German troops to travel thorugh Romania in order to get to the Eastern Front and Romanian troops fought alongside German troops on the front in a high level of coordination. Possibly, I'd have to check this, Romanian units ultimately took orders from the Germans. Conversely, German troops were not allowed into Finland and, AFAIK, did not fight alongside or in close proximity to Finnish troops in the northern sector. Yes, Finland and Germany were at war with the USSR at the same time and I expect there was some common strategy involved but the level of coordination between the Finnish and German militaries was of a completely different order than that which occured between, say , the Germans and the Romanians. AndyL 14:10, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, Romanian army was (in fact) subordinated to German comandment, in the name of "coordination". As my knowledge, German troops used Finnish territory to launch the attack of June 22, 1941, and I suppose that for example, there was some amount of coordination on the siege of Leningrad, between Finnish and German armies. The peace treaty didn't make any diference, I am not able to see any kind of military reasons in distinguishing Romania by Finland. There could be political reasons, after the war Finland was kept outside of Soviet-led empire. --Vasile 17:03, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Finland's territory was used for blocading the Gulf of Finland by means of sea mines at the opening of Operation Barbarossa, which clairly wasn't the most appropriate thing to do at the same time as the government declared it's neutrality in the conflict between Germany and the Soviet Union. But in early 1941, which was the time frame for the quote I question, Germany was formally an ally of the Soviet Union which made it impossible for Finland to be an ally of Germany. For more details, and a rather npov-ish account of the political development with regard to Finland, see the article on the Continuation War.

Would you, by the way, like to be more specific about how Finland's territory was used for attacks (other than the sea mines) on the Soviet Union before the Soviet air strikes against towns in Finland on June 25th? There is much in the history of Finland that I've not yet learned about, and this seems to be one of these points. /Tuomas 22:00, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In early 1941, Germany wasn't an ally of Soviet Union. M-R Pact wasn't an alliance pact. I do not understand why it is so difficult to admit this Finish-German de facto alliance. Even the wikipedia article about Continuation War says: "On 21 June, Finland's chief of the General Staff, Erik Heinrichs, was finally informed by his German counterpart that the attack was to begin." What else could show more clear than that the alliance? There were formal members of Axis that learn about the attack from the news.

"In practice the Wehrmacht already held the northern half of the border to Russia." and so on, from the same article. --Vasile 22:37, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

First of all: "In early 1941" is not the same as "in June 1941".

Secondly: "informed" is not the same as "allied".

Thirdly: as far as I'm informed, German forces did not attack over the border before Finland was attacked by the Soviet Union. It can equally well be described as letting the Wehrmacht carry the burden of the defense of northern Finland in order to scare the Russians away from Finland. If the Soviet Union hadn't attacked on the 25th, or the following weeks, Finno-German relations would have been very complicated — this is nothing to conceal, and the attack was in that respect so to say welcome for those circles, both military and politic (including some in the cabinet), who hoped for a chance to re-conquer the Priozersk–Vyborg area, Finland's industrial heart and home of a tenth of the Finns.

I used the term ally deliberatly for the Soviet-German relation during the M-R Pact. Actually in the hope that you, or someone else, would protest. I'm only happy, as this raises the need for a more stringent use of the term. During and after the Winter War, Germany acted as a proxy for the Soviet Union to hinder help from other countries to arrive to Finland and also by putting diplomatic pressure on other countries as well as on Finland. Germany declared explecitely (i.e. the German ambassador to Helsinki and high officers in Auswärtiges Amt) that Germany's and Finland's relations impossibly could be too formalized since Germany must prioritize her obligations to the Soviet Union — and that, they said, ought Finland also do. (I.e. in Finland's case, the obligations spelled out in the Moscow Peace Treaty.)

There were no attacks from Finnish territory prior to the Russian air strike, were there?

/Tuomas 23:10, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)