Talk:Iraq War

	Pending tasks for Iraq War:
	Use <s > and </s > (aka. strikeout) when each of these are done: Remove POV Clean up the multiple wiliking in the article a little bit. Add more references. Remove (or at least simplify) the multiple references to the same external article.

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Consensus - "War on Terrorism"

After discussing the relationship between the Iraq War and the War on Terrorism, we have reached a consensus over how do deal with this at Wikipedia. As the "War on Terrorism" is a specific, defined campaign, waged by the USA and its allies, they have full ability to define it, and carry it out as they choose. The campaign is a campaign being waged by them against those they have labeled terrorist groups and state sponsors of terror. As Iraq was labeled a state sponsor of terror [1], and as the Iraq War has always been stated as a part of the War on Terrorism [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7], it is a factual statement to say that it is a part of this campaign. The main objection to this was that it allegedly allows the United States and allies determine for the world who is, and who is not a terrorist/state sponsor. This is untrue - this specific campaign is against those they see as terrorists/state sponsors, thus avoiding any issue of NPOV. Another problem arose in discussion, however, dealing with how to represent this fact in the related articles. Some raised concerns that were we to merely state it as part of the War on Terrorism, it might not be clear to people that it is stating it as part of the specificly defined conflict. To address this, we have come to a compromise in which quotations are used in the infobox, ex. Part of the "War on Terrorism." We beleive that this removes any doubt that it is referring to the specific campaign, described at the article's namespace. We came to both of these conclusions through an extensive discussion, and beleive it to be a valid consensus based on the strength of the arguments. If anyone has any objections that are relevant to this decision, please raise them here. Rangeley 01:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd just like to try to rephrase that and see if I get it right. The US isn't the world arbiter of who is and is not really a terrorist or a sponsor of terrorism. Nevertheless, the US sets up campaigns and whatnot, and it gives them proper names, e.g. "Operation Enduring Freedom", etc. They've named one of their campaigns "The War on Terrorism", and although it is argued that this is a prejudicial misnomer, it is the name they chose. Recognizing that the Iraq War is part of that particular campaign, as classified by those carrying it out, is not really a problem. It's just that the name of the campaign exploits the ambiguity between proper and common nouns to make it appear that any action in the campaign is actually carried out for the purpose of fighting terrorism, defined in whatever way people think of it intuitively. To avoid this prejudicial aspect of the name, we're putting it in quotes, to highlight the fact that it's being used as a proper noun, and that we aren't making any claim as to the appropriateness of the words "War" "on" "Terrorism" to describe what's going on in Iraq.

Meanwhile, the article will be sure to address the controversy over the causes of the war, and their putative relation to terrorism, which is what this naming issue is really about.

Is that just about right? If so, I support the solution described by Rangeley and myself. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct. Rangeley 01:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I support this decision, please read here for a further rationale as to why quotations should be used. --kizzle 02:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

So does this mean we can finally remove the NPOV and US-centric tag in the template? --Edward Sandstig 06:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure why the NPOV tag was ever there, once the US Centric tag went up the other should have come down. As for removing both, as long as its represented by the quotation marks it seems it would be ok to remove both tags. I will start to write up something on the controvery over the inclusion of Iraq War. As per the agreement. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 10:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I still have a problem with putting this in the title. I do understand though that this is a US-defined term--so if we have to use this Republican rhetorical device, can we at least label it "Part of the U.S. War on Terrorism" since that a better descriptor of the conflict.Publicus 13:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

No, we determined that to label it "Bush's" or "United States" then it would not represent all of the players involved, because many of the operations have no US involvement whatsoever. The quotes do enough to show it is a proper noun, not a description. The article makes it clear what this proper noun is. Rangeley 13:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

However, the Iraqi front in the WOT is solely defined by the U.S.--other nations are fighting terrorism, but it's really the U.S. that has defined the Iraqi conflict most recently as part of the WOT. Sorry to rehash this argument, I must have missed part of the discussion earlier.Publicus 13:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Every part of the WoT is solely defined by the US/allies. We decided that, however, stating that it is the US War on Terror implies they are the only player, something that is incorrect. Thus we compromised on quotes to make it clear that it is a proper noun. We have talked about this exact topic here [8]Rangeley 13:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good, I just wanted to know if the "US" label had been discussed. The quotes on WOT work for me. Nice job on a very small but very difficult piece.Publicus 16:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

This works for me - whether you consider GWOT a real & valid thing or a US fantasy/excuse, it 'exists' and is part of the rhetoric - the quotes appear to do it justice in both interpretations yet does not automatically lend legitimacy; nicely NPOV IMHO. I do have another quibble though...Bridesmill 14:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, I was beginning to think I was crazy. --kizzle 15:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Casualty Figures

The infobox shows 55K Insurgents dead or jailed - that would imply that it's good to get them off the street (true) but it also implies that somehow it doesn't matter whether you kill them or just lock them up (forever?? if you consider it equiv to dead??). It also implies that *everyone* locked up is a bad guy. There is pretty well unanimous agreement that this is not so (the debate ranges from 'possibility of a few erroneous arrests & a very small percentage' to 'most are illegally detained' - but in either case it makes the 55K a dubuious figure) This figure really needs to be broken out into separate Killed & Detained. The other quibble is that the civil casualties are all on the left side of the table; whihc implies that they were all caused by the right side of the table, which is patently not true - Saddam's folks and insurgents have been responsible for a lot of them too. Can the civ figure be placed across both columns somehow?Bridesmill 14:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed your second complaint, but I dont know how to deal with it really. How do we determine which civilians were killed by which side? Rangeley 14:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Its correct according to the Iraq Index. Since its obvious in a war torn country they do not have specific numbers of who is an insurgent and who is a terrorists, since they are almsot one and the same. They have included terrorists into the insurgent numbers. As for civilians killed, the number I provided by the Iraq Index includes only those killed by combat related incidents, not crimes, this excludes war crimes. What this means is that Iraqi's killing Iraqi's for their TV is not included in this number. There is a seperate number for those killed by combat operations and crime, also in the source. As for what it implies ... they are just numbers its not implying anything. Its almost like if you had a statistic of murders in prisons and then went on about how they may be innocent. They are guilty to the effect that they have been arrested as insurgents or terrorists, thats all I can really offer you. The number is about jailed/killed, and so its quotes as such. As for who is illegally detained, this is not the forum for political belief discussion on legallities of detention of insurgents or "freedom fighters". --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 14:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not mind if people provide alternate sources, however they have to be based on a reasonably sized study, one more larger and respected then the Iraq Index. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 14:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree that 55 is bogus, just looked at the cited ref & this figure is a most interesting extrapolation from what the doc already says are questionable figures. The civ stats are not much different - a range 18K-34K would prob be more in keeping with what Brookings says; the 33,334 lends a false air of accuracy and reliability. Absolutely - we don't know who killed who re. civs (yes, early on in war it was heavily Coalition 'collateral', but not since then) Which is why I'm thinking have the civ figures stretch across both collumns so it doesn't specify or 'assume who the perpetrator of civ deaths was - would do this, but my box-format-edit skills are abysmal ... Nor am I suggesting that Brookings is bad; it's what I use day to day - just that in this case the use of it is somewhat misleading - the cell that the 33,334 came from says '18,961-33,334' - an honest use of those figures would be to quote the range or the median, not to use the upper limit. Bridesmill 14:53, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I have no issue with this, I used the top half number because the previous number cited over 100,000 which was just civilians dead, not differentiating if they died of anything related to combat even, it was also done on shakey methods of taking the total dead in one town, where heavy fighting had gone on, then using that % with the total population and assuming that % of dead was in every city. So I kept the higher number to prevent a fight over such a low number basically. I have no personal preference as to using the whole range. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 15:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I dont know how to split the cell either. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 15:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks; I tried but with grotesque results - I've posed the question at Template talk:Infobox Military Conflict.Bridesmill 15:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point Bridesmill, I would also like to see the Iraqi civilian number put more in the middle--however, we also have to keep in mind that some of the Iraqi civilian dead might also be counted as insurgents, or terrorists, or militia, etc. The same problem can also be seen in the "Iraqi Security Forces" number--some of those might also fall into the insurgent category (those who have infiltrated the ISF for example) so how do we count them? Personally, I have no idea.Publicus 16:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The source I am using has seperate number for Security Forces killed, so its already stated they are not. As for the whole "what if" thing, we have to assume they are not. For any poll or statistic you can then say, how do you know you counted the right ones, that person may really be an alien ... as an extreme example. But since the poll does differentiate, civilians are non combatants, meaning they are also not security forces, terrorists, insurgents etc. Yes I do know he may have seemed like a civilian but really been a terrorist, its the same with any stat, you in the end can never really tell. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 16:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

user:Kirill Lokshin over at the Infobox home has kindly activated the 'Casualties3' field, I just did it on the article; not totally sure if it's the final answer but I think a step in the right direction.Bridesmill 16:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm thinking contractor dead is a valid figure, but perhaps blended in as part of total Coalition dead (in interest of keeping infobox concise). THey are different form 'pure' civs, in that most of them are simply employees (often ex-military) of the military - technicians without uniforms. Bridesmill 16:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I just felt they should not get their own group. If you want to add that total, to the other total and maybe put a footnote and at the end of the page state this is what happened, that seems fair. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 17:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I think there is a misunderstanding, contractors should be moved to civilian dead if anything. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 19:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)