Talk:Lazar Kaganovich

Famine-Genocide Deniers

On the Internet, there exists Famine-Genocide Deniers Web Pages. It appears the goal of these Famine-Genocide Deniers Web Pages is to downplay and minimize the significance of this tragic event in Ukrainian History. They also glorify Joseph Stalin as a hero of the people. These pages also state how Joseph Stalin's reputation is allegedly malligned by anti-communist Ukrainians who allegedly have pro-Nazi leanings.

The purpose of this post is to expose people to this re-writing of Ukrainian History. Rastishka

As for revisionist attempts to portray genocidal "famine" as a "mistake" or whatever- http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/comfaq.htm#part5 I cant believe such a despicable agitprop -or, its loudspeakers, have the temerity to spew their bile here by distorting the truth. Mir Harven 15:21, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

On "Stalin (or Hitler) thought well, but.."

There is no need to pretend that Dallin (accomplished Soviet propagandist, as seen in his story on Russia in WW2) oe Alec Nove (a minor figure) are motivated by anything else than a cover-up of Stalin and his policies. As for Lewin, his motives spring principally from Jewish concerns (rather than ideological), because forced collectivization is not infrequently portrayed as some sort of Jewish genocide over Ukrainians (by the way- there is no reason this discussion is going here, on the page on Kaganovich, since he was only Stalin's lapdog. The entire thing was decided and organized by Stalin, and not any of his puppets (Molotov, Kaganovich, Kalinin, ..). As far as one can see- all authorities on Soviet history and Communism (Pipes, Conquest, Medvedev, Kolakowski, Landauer, ...) agree on the following points: a) the collectivization was an act aimed at eradication of the entire class ("kulaks", but it was essentially peasants). If not confined completely to one ethnic group or nation, is is neverthless, upon examining its course, a democide (better word than just a genocide). b) its crucial element (and not a side effect) was genocidal policy towards Ukrainians, since Russian-populated rural areas were not nearly hit as those inhabited by other nations, especially Ukrainians and Kazakhs. More, Russians had been settled in various countries cleansed form Kazakhs and Ukrainians by famine (villages and hamlets whose Ukrainian inhabitants were starved to death), therefore changing ethnic structure in the way that benefitted Russian ethno-territorial expansion. Many formerly Ukrainian districts and counties became ethnically Russian-a not a single distric or strip of the land changed its ethnic composition the other way around (Russian to Ukrainian).

The role of Jewish party members is a matter of dispute. While they did not engineer the policy, their zeal in pursuing it, complete absence of dissent during the event and later efforts of cover-up beg some unpleasant questions on the degree of Russian Jewish complicity in this affair (although the champions who fought for truth later included prominent figures of Jewish extraction, like Vassily Grossman and Pipes). As it is now, complex question of the scope and profile of Russian (and Ukrainian, Lithuanian,..) Jewish involvement in Communist terrorist activities is still not resolved.

Be as it may, the issue of Holodomor is downplayed mostly by Soviet apologists and, interestingly enough, a part of Jewish political analysts who try, somehow, to minimize ethnic/national dimension of the mass murder. Therefore incessant drumming about Ukrainian participation in the Holocaust- and simultneous efforts that aim both at downplaying the scope and horror of the Holodomor, as well as the scope of Jewish participation in it- which can be interpreted as Jewish chauvinist quasi-revenge attack on Ukrainians (historically, one can go as far back as the 17th century and Bogdan Khmelnitzky massacres). The "doubt" about collectivization aims is virtually the same as the revisionist questioning of Hitler's genocidal plans agains Jews and various Slavs. Some Jewish chauvinists (of various affiliations- they include not only Communist sympathizers but also media moguls who are bound with Holodomor deniers in anti-Ukrainian bias) are shamefully involved in this nefarious propagandist warfare. The tactic is simple- portray others as exclusive perpertators and yourself as pure and untainted victim. Well- life is, unfortuantely, a more complex affair.

Anyway- it's better to put the Holodomor issue at Stalin's doorstep since Kaganovich was only a zealous executor. Mir Harven 08:52, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, your personal views on the matter notwithstanding, differing opinions on historically controversial matters such as this must be represented. Everyking 11:32, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK, but with "appropriate" statistical weight, so to speak. Mir Harven 13:53, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Bunch of crap, Everyking. Try expressing a differing opinion on aspartame or fluoridation — even if it's a prevalent opinion in Europe. Try pointing out the embarassing parts of Nazi history, like backing by well-known Americans. Try pointing out the lack of evidence of a Serb-run genocide in Kosovo. Try pointing out an instance of how the US fakes crimes by l'ennemi du jour. Look at the treatment Germany Must Perish! got.

WP enforces as much fashionable bias on the hard stuff as everyplace place. Kwantus 03:43, 2005 Jan 17 (UTC)

"The role of Jewish party members is a matter of dispute. While they did not engineer the policy, their zeal in pursuing it, complete absence of dissent during the event and later efforts of cover-up beg some unpleasant questions on the degree of Russian Jewish complicity in this affair "

Take this POV nonsense elsewhere, please. This is not a place to promote the "Jewish communists killed Ukrainian peasants" propaganda now prevalent in Russia and Ukraine. The zeal of Jewish Communist party members was neither greater nor less than the zeal of Russian Communists like Voroshilov or Molotov, Georgians like Stalin, Ordzhonikidze or Beria, or Ukrainians like Khrushev. They all gave up their ethnic identity and religious backgrounds in order to become "true communists". And the actions leading to the famine were carried out by thousands of smaller party members, officers, soldiers etc. vast majority if whom were Russians and Ukrainians. It's time to stop using Wikipedia as a mean to promote one's own bigoted views.

Kaganovich and Holodomor

Kaganovich was the first secretary of Communist Party of Ukraine in 1925-1928. Since 1928 he was the first secretary of Moscow Obcom.

The collectivization started in 1929, Holodomor was in 1930-1932. Kaganovich at that time was busy with the Moscow problems and have no day-to-day control over Ukraine. For one week in 1930 he went to Kiev (together with Molotov) and participated in the All-Ukrainian conference of the Communist Party. They made their speeches encouraging the murderous politics of collectivization (who did not). He is certainly guilty (as all these Polibyuro members), but I do not see why he should be singled out as the person engineering the Holodomor. Stalin is certainly qualified, Kosyor and Postyshev probably too. I do not see why Kaganovich qualifies. In all the long Conquest's book (Russian text on http://www.fictionbook.ru/author/konkvest_robert/jatva_skorbi/konkvest_jatva_skorbi.html) Kaganovich is mentioned 7 times. If he was the person responsible he would be mentioned much more.

The number of victims of Holodomor was discussed on Holodomor article. The demographic data show 4-6.5 mlns of population loss (including unborn children), the official registration of deaths data show 1.5 mln excess deaths but the data is certainly under-reported. All data is for the whole Soviet Union (including Kazakhstan, Cuban, Volga region, then Russian Crimea). Thus, we can safely say millions of victims. It is a colossal tragedy by itself, no need to exaggerate it. If you have other sources showing other info please argue it o Holodomor first, no need to argue it in mutiple places. abakharev 00:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Once again the exact numbers for the Holodomor victims are hotly debated, but 7-10 millions in the Ukraine seems to be on a higher side. All the info before the Soviet archives were opened (i.e. 1990ies) is a wild guess. Estimations of serious people give the following:

• Stephen Wheatcroft and R.W Davies, The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933 6..6.5 mln over the whole Soviet Union,
• Stanislav Kulchytsky, "How many of us perished in Holodomor in 1933" 5..6 mln on Ukraine
• "Demographic catastrophes of the 20th century", a chapter from Demographic Modernization in Russia 1900–2000, ed. A. G. Vishnevsky, 2006 4..5 mln over whole SU

etc.

Neither of these researchers are stalinist apologists. The stalinists of course deny the catastrophical famine entirely or put the numbers in thousands, not millions, explaining it by natural weather conditions, etc. If you have better and more reliable references, please put them and argue them on the Holodomor article. So far I propose to just say millions without stating the concrete number as a fact.

The same way intentions to kill the self-sufficient peasantry is not a fact but a speculation. The self-sufficiency was broken by the collectivization. Stalin did not need to kill his own serfs and if he wanted he had an elaborate system of labor camps to do the job for him. abakharev 04:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the image, Rastishka. It nicely settles our dispute. Please check that the correct copyright tag is provided (if in doubt please contact me, I will try to invent something). abakharev 07:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Rastishka, stop changing the article to that silly biased version. Again, these claims are debatable and are not facts:

• The famine killed 7-10 million Ukrainians.
• The famine was an intentional act of genocide.
• That Kaganovich was personally responsible for intentionally killing millions and so "was one of the worst mass murderers in history" (this quote is directly copy and pasted from such anti-Semetic sites as jewwatch.com).

You have to be neutral here and if you continue changing it, I will report you. YMB29

Everybody, especially Rastishka. Please do not create a WP:POVFORK here of the Holodomor article. If you argue the factual information about this catastrophe there, not here. Here we only discuss the biography of a second-rate (after 1939 a third-rate and after 1956 - nobody) Soviet politician. abakharev 01:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Alex Bakharev my communist friend, you would not dare say these things on the holocaust page, you would be banished in seconds... yet you feel free here to spew your genocide denial on the little known Ukrainian holocaust, yet there is more proof of it happening than any other holocausts in history.

Yours,

Rastishka

This comment kind of proves my earlier opinion on Rastishka. YMB29

I'm reverting the edits made by User:Rastishka. The way it was before is a more neutral interpretation. These edits seem to be based more on a personal grievance and bitterness than a desire to educate. Greg 22:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"[B]ordering with the genocide"?

Can someone explain the meaning of the following passage:

Where he was one of the leaders of fighting against the local Muslim rebels (basmaches) and the following punitive expeditions bordering with the genocide of the local populations.

It seems to be recent. Thanks. --TJive 04:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)