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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Goatwarrior (talk | contribs) at 15:22, 6 July 2006 (→[[Bruce willis is a robot]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Bruce willis is a robot

Neologism, poor citations, lack of google hits, nonsense, NN --Tagishsimon (talk)

  • Delete - possibly even speedy? Artw 16:52, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Come on, forums for references? —EdGl 16:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The phrase is used enough online in the internet culture to warrant keeping the article. The phrase is by no means integrated into pop culture, therefore the lack of TV and movie references, hence the use of forums as references.goatwarrior
    • Note: This is goatwarrior's first and so far only contribution to wikipedia (contributions). We sure don't appreciate sock-puppets; nor would we like you to think we're fools. Au contrere. --Tagishsimon (talk)
      • Note: Let it be noted that I did not write the article, I simply added to the forum references.goatwarrior
  • Delete Fails WP:NEO and probably WP:NFTDavidHumphreys SPEAK TO MEABOUT WHAT I MESSED UP 17:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • It also might be worth noting that the 6th Sense debuted in 1999 and the forum references are from 7/02, 2/04, 2/04, and 2/05 so while it's not exactly crushing the internet it is certainly persisting. Whether you chose to delete the stub or not doesn't change the fact that is used. goatwarrior
  • Keep. Let me address the concerns that have been stated by the moderators.
    • 1. Neologism: Although it might be able to be classified as a neologism, it's more like a colloquialism. As stated by goatwarrior, the Sixth Sense was out in 1999 and it continues to be referenced throughout the years.
    • 2. Poor Citations: Yes, there are not very good citations, but I would argue that it's because of the nature of the phrase itself. It's used when in the middle of a conversation about a movie, you find out that someone hasn't seen it. That situation is very unlikely in even forums and would be totally inappropriate use of the phrase in any kind of website. It is not a net friendly phrase. However, wikipedia is not just about net friendly or written word friendly articles.
    • 3. Lack of google hits: please see number two.
    • 4. Nonsense: I may be biased because I'm the author, but I've tried to make the article as well written as I could. It was not written with any ulterior motive. I used the phrase in conversation with some people who didn't know what it mean - I said look it up on wikipedia, it's probably there. And lo and behold, it wasn't. So I wrote it hoping that others would contribute.
    • 5. As you can see by the forum post links, I did not make up the phrase, I'm simply reporting on it because it is a piece of history (ongoing).
    • 6. Keep in mind this is a colloquialism, so just because you may not have heard of it, doesn't mean it's not true or doesn't exist. How many of you use the term Ansible or have even heard that word before? I think that 'Bruce Willis is a robot' is used far more than that particular colloquialism. --Terevos 18:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I have added what to the best of my knowledge is the origin of the term to this article. (Disclaimer: I was not involved in the creation of the article, but my post was one of those cited as a reference to the term.) As for the "lack of search hits" on the term, that was actually a source of frustration to me as I tried to piece together where I'd read the thing in the first place, since the Old Man Murray article doesn't seem to be readily findable on a reasonable sort of "bruce willis robot" query. It was only by blind chance that a friend, who had heard my lament about how my Sixth Sense viewing experience was corrupted by this bizarre bluff spoiler, stumbled upon it and filled in that gap in my memory. So I would put to the "delete" crowd that the lack of ready explanations for the term is in fact a good reason to keep it available in WP. --Jason Compton — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.183.46.179 (talk)
    • You've come to Wikipedia with the wrong idea of what this project is. Wikipedia's goal is to be an encyclopaedia, not to be a repository of information that doesn't exist outside of Wikipedia. If there is a "lack of ready explanations" outside of Wikipedia, then Wikipedia may not have an article, since having "ready explanations" outside of Wikipedia is a fundamental requirement of everything here. The place to publish primary source material providing the original history of an idea is a scholarly journal, a magazine, or one's own web site, not Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a primary source. Uncle G 14:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - neologism, lack of sources other than forums. Wikipedia isn't designed to be a place to provide popularization for something like this. The proper route is: it becomes well known, it becomes documented, it gets a Wikipedia article. Tony Fox (speak) 20:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • A neologism is something that's 'new'. This phrase is over 6 years old. This isn't popularization, I'm not trying to increase the use of the term, simply to report on what it is. It is well known by the people that use it. It is well documented on many forums and it will never be used in anything but forums because of the nature of the term. I'm not sure what the problem with the use of forums for colloquialisms is. Where else are you going to find phrases that people say to each other in that kind of context? --Terevos 20:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, non-notable phrase (neologism/protologism). Let it catch on first; document it after major newspapers start using it in movie reviews. Not when a handful of people use it in a chat forum. Weregerbil 21:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Please note that Weregerbil does not seem to understand the proper usage of the term. Otherwise he would not have suggested to wait until newspapers start using it in movie reviews. The term is primarily a speech-only phrase. Proper usage of the term prohibits it from being used effectively in written form, which is why there is a small amount of net references to it. --Terevos 14:05, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Weregerbil--Nick Y. 21:35, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Weregerbil above Tom Harrison Talk 21:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete After six years you can describe it as a failed neologism, but it's still nn. Everything that gets used a few times in a forum does not deserve an article. Fan-1967 22:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Ansibles are a notable type of communication device used in a lot of fiction by credible SF writers (notably Card). This is an obscure and unverifiable phrase. Distinguish a coined word used widely to speak of a specific concept to a one-off phrase or inversion of an existing one, or merely adding a Latin root to an existing word. SM247My Talk 23:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, because if I, a total non-entity, were to post this phrase once to any old random forum anywhere on the internet, I would be increasing this phrase's entire verifiable global circulation by about 10%, and I would not be diluting the notability of its pool of adopters one iota either. Which makes it an obscure nothing, in my book. Sorry. --DaveG12345 00:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I never heard of it. And in the case of neologisms, that should be enough. Danny Lilithborne 00:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Earlier in this talk session, I was accused of being a Sock Puppet. If you follow the link to the wikipedia article refering to internet sock puppet, you'll find no references other than a single usenet that references the term. Other than that, the article has no other reference to the term. Having been on the usenet for many years, I have never heard this term before, but it is nonetheless used by a handful of people on the net. I'm not saying by any means that we should delete the Sock Puppet article at all, I'm simply wondering how it slipped through the sensors. After all, according to weregerbil, if it were an actual term, shouldn't it be documented in a major news paper? Anyways, it's just something to think about. (For the record, I am not a "sock puppet".) --Goatwarrior 00:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Sockpuppet is notable in that sense anyway because Wikipedia uses it. SM247My Talk 01:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I don't understand the point being made above per Goatwarrior. "Sock puppet" gets rather a lot of Google Group hits, and a glance at these shows these are most often in the internet sense of the phrase. "Bruce Willis is a robot" gets rather fewer hits. So the subject of the article under discussion is unnotable because, um, there's no evidence anyone's using it. There's lots of evidence that "sock puppet" is widely used in the internet sense, so it's notable. Even the LA Times has quoted the phrase in one of its stories. If the article doesn't reflect that fact with enough references, then feel free to clean it up. --DaveG12345 02:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment The LA times article doesn't use the term sock puppet in the same way defined by the wikipedia article. The LA Times article is not refering to a mull account or anything internet related. I do plan on doing the proper research to legitimize the sock puppet article, I just have yet to find what this forum refers to as a legitimate reference for this term. As to your claim that sock puppet gets more hits than 'Bruce Willis is a robot' is because the term sock puppet is a multi-purpose term for more than just a mull account. Whereas the phrase 'Bruce Willis is a robot' is not static and it's usage may vary. For example, you can say, 'So in the end, Bruce Willis turned out to be a robot', 'So, anyways, Bruce Willis ended up being a robot', 'So it turned out that Bruce Willis was a robot'. The phrase being a partial sentence is bound by English tense and a variety of circumstances. --Goatwarrior 13:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Put sockpuppet on AFD if you wish. This discussion is about BWIAR. --Tagishsimon (talk)
  • Keep. Weird, I came to wiki today to find out what the heck this even means - One of the guys at work used the phrase today and I didn't know what he was talking about. Now I know! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Meatsicle (talk • contribs)
  • The article comprises an explanation of the usage of a phrase, coupled with a list of external links to people using it. There are no sources cited, and there's no indication that this phrase has been documented in any secondary source material anywhere, either in the article or in this AFD discussion. Searching, I can find no such secondary sources. This is first-instance, primary source, documentation of something that hasn't been documented anywhere outside of Wikipedia, and is original research. Wikipedia is not a primary source. The place for this sort of work is elsewhere. Delete. Uncle G 13:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment If that is seriously Wikipedia's official policy, there are a whole lot of articles that are currently in Wikipedia that are 1. Primary source and 2. Neologism. Shall I start putting them all up for AfD? No, because people look to Wikipedia for all kinds of information. Is it hurting anyone to have Ansible or Badonkadonk or Sock_puppet_(internet) on Wikipedia? Should those entries be in Wikipedia even though they are Neologisms and/or primary source articles? I would argue they should be in Wikipedia. The primary source thing is to prevent falsification, not to prevent colloquialisms from being entered into Wiki. --Terevos 14:05, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • The "primary source thing" is part of the fundamental goal of this project: to be an encyclopaedia, a tertiary source. Editors who believe that Wikipedia should be a primary source have come to the wrong project, and should look elsewhere for a project whose goals match theirs. This project's goal is to be an encyclopaedia. You'll also find that, in stark contrast to this article, there is secondary source material describing the concept of an ansible. There is certainly plenty of source material describing puppets made from socks (not least shelves full of children's activity books in bookshops). Articles on either subject can be written from sources. Articles on this subject cannot. Articles on this subject are original research. Your comparison is wholly flawed. Uncle G 14:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've read the Wikipedia guidelines on primary source. It doesn't apply to articles like this one. It's primarily referring to actual research on scientific data. Ansible is not a primary source article, you're right, but it is a neologism. Badonkadonk is both primary source and a neologism. And you're looking at the wrong Sock_puppet_(internet) article. The one I referred to is about a pseudonym account. That article is both a primary source and neologism. --Terevos 15:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Obvious nn, WP:NEO. Batmanand | Talk 13:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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