Talk:Princess Olga of Greece and Denmark
Ow. Whoever wrote this, you broke my brain. How did you possibly write all that? @_x; --Eequor 21:23, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
This article is claiming a title for that "princess" that simply cannot apply; Greece has been a Presidential Democracy for years now and all nobility titles have been rendered invalid. Calling that person a "princess" is mere royalist propaganda, and its against the law and the will of the Greek people. Etz Haim 04:57, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I removed the notable tag because the notable tag has been deleted. Snowspinner 02:30, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)
- The fact is that she was born a princess of Greece and Denmark, and your objection that calling her by a title she actually had and was referred to when when alive is propaganda is ridiculous. The monarchy was abolished in 1974/5, when she was 72 years old! - Nunh-huh 03:39, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Well, that makes her former princess, doesn't it? By the Greek Constitution, nobility titles just don't exist. And she did lose her title when she was alive. Attributing someone with an inexistent title openly defies the Constitution, and it is indeed propaganda, extreme royalist, anti-democratic, illegal and against public consensus. If that person still has a valid Danish nobility title (I honestly don't know much about Danish titles), then this article should be named "Olga, princess of Denmark", and mention that she was a member of the former Greek royal family. Etz Haim 08:28, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- The Greek constitution has nothing to do with it. Its full text relating to nobility is "Titles of nobility or distinction shall neither be conferred upon, nor recognized in Greek citizens." She was born a princess of Greece and Denmark; that's essentially her birthname; it wasn't conferred upon her after the constition. Lack of recognition is not abolition. And in 1975 at the time of the adoption of the constitution she was not a Greek citizen, having married Prince Paul of Yugoslavia. She's listed here because of Wikipedia's convention that "maiden" names rather than married names are used. When titles are abolished, it doesn't erase them from history, and you're being quite silly. You're confusing a title with an office, or with a claim to power. Someone being "Lord Mountbatten of Burma" doesn't mean he claims to rule Burma, and when Burma becomes Myanmar, he doesn't become "Lord Mountbatten of Myanmar". And Wikipedia doesn't need to start applying titles that people never had: Olga was not a "Princess of Denmark"; she was a "Princess of Greece and Denmark". In the same way that say, William, the Prince of Wales' son, is a "Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" but not a "Prince of Northern Ireland". - Nunh-huh 20:29, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It is completely standard to refer to members of former royal families by their titles of pretense. This is not to give credence to their claims - it is just how these people are referred to. In the case of Olga, this argument is particularly ridiculous - when she married, she was, indeed, a princess of Greece and Denmark (she presumably continued to be a princess of Denmark after 1975). After that, she was Princess Paul of Yugoslavia. The standard is to use maiden name - that was her maiden name. Similarly, we have Princess Alice of Battenberg for the Duke of Edinburgh's mother. Her family ceased to be known as Battenberg in 1917, but since she was already married, that doesn't apply to her. As far as it goes, the Greeks generally seem to utterly detest their royal family, and particularly the fact that they still claim to be the royal family of Greece. This should be discussed somewhere, perhaps in an article on Greek royal family, or some such. john k 20:44, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- We try to give people the names they were born with, and she was born a princess. Furthermore, even if we accepted she were an ex-princess, it would still be the highest title she ever had and would therefore apply. Deb 21:32, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Is it considered OK to name it, "Olga of Greece and Denmark"? Refer to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). In particular:
- Former or deposed monarchs should be referred to by their previous monarchical title; for example, Constantine II of Greece not ex-King Constantine II or Constantine Gluckberg, Edward VIII of the United Kingdom not the Duke of Windsor, Juliana of the Netherlands not ex-Queen Juliana or Princess Juliana.
[[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk)]] 21:52, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)
- She was never a monarch, and thus is not a deposed or former monarch -- though the point of the cited policy is that deposed and non-deposed, former and current monarchs receive identical treatment. Monarchs don't get "King" or "Queen" in their article titles. - Nunh-huh 22:23, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The current practice in Greece is that people who died having a nobility title, their title is valid post-mortem. This applies for Constantine's father who is still refered as "King Paul". This is not however the case with Constantine himself, who was stripped of his title while alive. Also, Constantine's family name is not "of Greece"; it's the "Glucksberg" that he unfortunately considers offensive. The Greek state offered him an alternative and he had to choose a valid name (by Greek legal standards) after his dethronement; however he chose not to. Last time he entered Greece with a danish passport calling him "Constantine Dellagrecia".
Some of the comments above express total disregard of the Greek law, constitution, and public consensus in favor of their interpretation of Wikipedia's policies. This is very sad. I don't think there's anything wrong with the policies themselves, but every policy is of limited scope and applies to certain cases only. Wikipedia's naming policies simply cannot impose names that aren't there in the real world. Etz Haim 00:23, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Lovely. However, this is not Greece. For clarity, we use the standard practice in the Western world (well, the US / UK / France / Germany / Spain / &c.; call it what you will), not the specific practices as used at any one point in the country of origin of the person, institution, or otherwise - these are policies for the entire globe. Thus, the correct name by Wikipedia standard policies is, indeed, "Princess Olga of Greece and Denmark".
- James F. (talk) 00:37, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Names that aren't there in the real world? That's ridiculous. The members of the former Greek royal family themselves continue to use their titles (even those who have been born since the end of the monarchy). In general, we call people by the names they call themselves, whether or not the government of the country they were born in recognizes their right to use those names. john k 03:31, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This is the third time I spot the word "ridiculus" on the comments above me, and I've had enough of it. Should I have mentioned how ridiculus "Princess of Greece" sounds to me, 30 years after the constitutional reform that abolished monarchy in my country? It is ridiculus indeed. However, I didn't use this word so far, knowing that I was addressing people living outside of Greece that do not know the situation here in Greece as well as I do. I used extreme courtesy and patience trying to make my point, and I would expect some courtesy in return.
Now, some people have mentioned a naming "protocol" or a "standard practice" in the "Western world". The particular point involving the "Western world" cliched rhetory is self-centered and offensive, and it's part of the broader, discriminative idealogy of the "White man's burden". It's an insult with racial characteristicts to the people of the Orient, or those who have historical/cultural bonds with it.
And what is this "protocol" after all? Is it something that applies universally and undisputedly, much like the gravitational constant? It's a set of rules that may have some form of formal recognition, by law or by Constitution, in a country that has an established monarchy. It's part of that country's royalist folklore. I don't think that France has a royalist folkore; two words for you: French Revolution. So does Greece.
So far, summarizing from the above, there are three sets of standards that could help as decide whether Olga is a "Princess of Greece":
- Irrelevant misinterpretations of Wikipedia's naming policy,
- "Western world" bigotry, that refuses a sovereign country its right to define its form of state,
- The Greek law.
Why is this a difficult choice? Etz Haim 09:21, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I sympathise with the annoyance that Etz Haim and most Greeks feel at foreign countries which ignore their democratic decision to become a republic and abolish all titles of nobility. For ex-king Constantine to be invited to state functions in Britain as "King of the Hellenes," for example, is an insult which Greeks rightly get very angry at. However Wikipedia is not a country and does not have diplomatic relations with Greece. It is an encyclopaedia, and its policy is to refer to all people by the names by which they are or were most commonly known, without taking into account any political factors, no matter how valid those factors might be in other contexts. The fact is that Olga was, rightly or wrongly, legally or illegally, known as Princess Olga all her life, and that is the decisive fact here. The alternatives are presumably to call her either Olga Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg (her maiden name) or Olga Karageorgevic (her married name), both of which would be absurd since no-one has ever heard of those names. Etz Haim, zito singnomi alla den boro na sou stiriso me afto to zitima. Adam 10:01, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Adam, thanks for your comment. My wish is to resolve this dispute in a constructive manner rather than be consumed in arguing with someone advocating the "Western world" bias. Your opinion means much to me. I wouldn't want the Greek objections on this crucial issue to be disregarded. I would expect from Wikipedia to at least provide a disclaimer saying that this article title (or titles) does not suggest a position on this particular issue of Greek politics, and it is the names these people have been using for themselves. In such a case, I would remove the NPOV tag myself. Etz Haim 10:29, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- For what it's worth here is my opinion. Bits of it sound trite but they aren't meant to be. Other bits will sound like total non-sequiturs - and they probably are:-
- Firstly, names, titles and styles are merely labels - they don't have to be accurate to be used - I, for instance, have no connection with Armagh per se (apart from a similar-looking tartan), and the astronaut Scott Carpenter was not of that profession.
- Again, Sargon I of Akkad styled himself King of the Four Quarters of the World - now I reckon that three of the quarters of the world would have disputed this, and King Hammurabi of Babylon could have had no comprehension of the Universe of which he styled himself king.
- Conversely England and Scotland, constitutionally kingdoms within the UK, don't even get a mention in the full style of the head of state, whereas the Province of Northern Ireland does.
- Also how many know that the bird known as 'turkey' is only called this because it was thought to be the same as another bird which originated in Turkey - it is now known that this was not the case, but it still bears the name. (One could also cite the case of the 'West Indies' in this respect also)
- Secondly, history is always written with a bias - and it is not the job of an encyclopaedia to introduce a clinical neutrality for fear of causing offence and thereby omitting information. Indeed, the fact that from some quarters offence may be caused is itself worthy of being recorded. Having said that, any such bias should not be covert or propogandist. --JohnArmagh 17:39, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Etz Haim - in most countries which have abolished their monarchy, their former royalties are generally still referred to by their titles of pretense. This is not, of course, to say that Constantine II, or Michael, or Simeon are actually still the Kings of the Hellenes, Romania, and Bulgaria respectively. It is merely how these people are known. The son of the last King of Yugoslavia is generally called "Crown Prince Alexander," even though the country of which he was crown prince (Yugoslavia) no longer exists. I think all the arguments as to why members of the Greek royal family should still be known by their royal titles have been rehearsed here. It has nothing to do with Greece's right to determine its own form of government. Of course it does. It has to do with Greece's right to determine the names of its former royal family, which seems a highly dubious proposition. At any rate, with Olga, this question seems to be clear - The article is at this location because this was her maiden name. She ceased to use that maiden name long before the Greek monarchy was abolished. As such, there is no other location to put her. The basic problem with what you are demanding is that these people have no other names than "Prince/ss N of Greece and Denmark". I suppose we might call them "Prince/ss N of Denmark" but this would simply be utterly confusing. To call her "Olga Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg" is simply ridiculous - it's astonishing to me that you are claiming that the current naming standard allows names "which are not actually used" when, in fact, these names, however offensive they might be to Greek people (and however horrible a king Constantine may have been), are the only names available to refer to these people. john k 18:58, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
People, thanks for spending some of your time to deal with this issue. And I admit I partially agree with some of your sayings. For instance, I would agree that this is not the place to discuss the impact monarchy had on Greece; this should be part of another discussion. And it's a good thing some of you are concearned about historical bias. At this point, I wouldn't want me (or anyone else) to be consumed in arguing about someone's perception of the so-called "Western world" or every potential naming paradox on Wikipedia or the outside world. It would be better to focus on this article alone and try to adopt a formula to make it less offensive. Adam Carr's recent changes on the article are a positive step, and I have already said something about a disclaimer. Suggestions addressing this particular matter will be largely appreciated. Etz Haim 15:58, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I just wanted to note that I've edited Adam's edits. I think calling her first by a name which she never used, and by which she was never known, is deeply problematic. She was "Princess Olga of Greece and Denmark" until she married. Thereafter she was "Princess Paul of Yugoslavia", or perhaps "Princess Olga of Yugoslavia". At any rate, there is no precedent for someone's maiden name being retroactively changed after they've married, at least that I'm aware of. I don't want to start an edit war about this, since we seem to be calming down, but using fictional constructs to name people is, I think, a terrible idea. It should also be noted that "Greece and Denmark" means just that - Greece and Denmark. All of the former Greek royal family remain Princes/ses of Denmark, even though they are no longer in the Danish line of succession. Thus, if you'd like, Constantine is "Prince Constantine of Denmark". He is certainly not "Constantine of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg" - that name was superceded in actual use when George I's father was made a Prince of Denmark in 1853. john k 22:26, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Is not Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg still the family name of the Danish and Greek royal families? If it is, then members of that family should be refered to by that name, as well as by whatever titles they use. To take an almost exact analogy, we have an article on the Duke of Bavaria, which begins: "Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria von Wittelsbach (born July 14, 1933), styled as Duke of Bavaria." How do we distinguish that case from this? Adam 00:54, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- The name of a Royal House is not a surname. Some royal houses have taken surnames, others have not, and in others it's not perfectly clear if they have or if so, what it is. In this case, I do not think you will find many documents that refer to "Olga Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg" or "Olga Slesvig-Holsten-Sønderborg-Lyksborg." We shouldn't assign people "surnames" because we feel they "should" have them; we should record the names they used, and were referred to by. - Nunh-huh 02:29, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I would also suggest that very clearly the article on the Duke of Bavaria is wrong. His name is Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria Herzog von Bayern. Wittelsbach is not in his name at all, and his surname is "Herzog von Bayern". john k 04:09, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Gah, that article was just a mess of improper names. To clarify, members of former German noble families took their former titles as surnames following 1918. Thus, the members of the Wittelsbach house have as their surname "Prinz von Bayern" (or in the case of the head of the house, "Herzog von Bayern", and of the members of the cadet branch, "Herzog in Bayern"). The Hohenzollerns have as their surnames "Prinz von Preußen". And so forth. The house names, whatever role they may have, are not the surnames of these individuals. Any article which states that their name is "Joe von Wittelsbach" or "Bill von Hohenzollern" is just wrong. The Habsburgs have a more complicated status, as their titles actually were revoked by the Austrian Republic, although most continued to use "Archduke Joe of Austria" rather than "Joe Habsburg-Lothringen"...Dr. Otto Habsburg being an exception, due to the fact that he had to renounce his claims to return to Austria. john k 04:17, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I see I will have to defer to your vast erudition on this subject :) However, I have read in several places that the Wittelsbach and Stuart titles, whatever they may be, will pass to Alois of Leichtenstein when Max of Bavaria dies. Is this not so? -?-
- Almost. When Franz of Bavaria dies, his heir is Max of Bavaria; when he dies, the claim to his titles would pass to his eldest daughter Sofie, who is married to Alois of Liechtenstein. If Sofie were to die, the heir would be her eldest child Joseph Wenzel Maximilian Maria von Liechteinstein.
- Now for the other alteration in the article: it's inaccurate to say the Greek Constitution "abolished" titles. The constitution actually says "Titles of nobility or distinction shall neither be conferred upon, nor recognized in Greek citizens." This could be paraphrases as "stopped granting titles to, and stopped recognizing titles of, Greek Citizens" but not "abolishing titles already in existence". It does not say "It is illegal to call yourself Princess Olga of Greece"; it says we do not recognize your title. - Nunh-huh 07:51, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)