Talk:Communist state

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Soviet culture

Regarding this edit and comment by User:172 deleting a paragraph with links to Soviet culture and Soviet popular culture [1]. The article Communist state was merged with the article Marxist-Leninist government on April 11, 2004 by User:Mikkalai, see [2]. Thus the article after the merger properly contains information regarding both the formal governmental structure of the Communist state but also the practical consequences of Marxist-Leninist rule. Thus the reason given for deleting the paragraph is inappropriate as it is not "off-topic". Fred Bauder 14:07, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

This is patently absurd. It would be equally off topic to make observations about, say, Swazi culture in the article on constitutional monarchy by virtue of the fact that the Kingdom of Swaziland is nominally a constitutional monarchy. 172 14:13, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The article after its merger with the article Marxist-Leninist government contains the following language:

"This article includes both an exposition of the formal and semi-formal mechanisms of government and constitutional workings in communist countries and a more general discussion of the practical consequences of communist rule." Fred Bauder 15:30, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

Influence of american culture is not unique to communist states. The whole world complains the american cultural aggression. Besides, the whole history of Russia is full of crazes with western culture: first it was German, then it was French (french was "first language" for elite in some historical periods). You say jeans craze. What about Beatles craze? Because of communism as well? Give us a break!

Soviet popular culture just was. For our purposes the idea is to describe it, not to prove anything by doing so. Fred Bauder 16:15, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

As for conformism, no country forces conformism unto you more than the USA, unless you have guts or money. But people with guts and/or money did pretty well in the USSR as well. Mikkalai 16:03, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That information perhaps belongs in an article on the US. The guts and money thing is true enough but would need explaining in any article on Soviet culture. Fred Bauder 16:15, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

To describe the Soviet culture, you better start a separate article, for a serious discussion. Otherwise occasional remarks in articles on other albeit related topics contribute to nothing more than to something similar by depth of analysis to "bear and balalaika" image. For example, why confomism? And is conformism proper enough term to describe life under a dictatorship, where confomism was a matter of survival for the majority? I hope you agree this article is not the place to go these and other issued in depth without exsessive bloating and diverging from the main topic. On the other hand, IMO no one will object to include here a summary from a serious article (say, Soviet culture), where one may find answer on possibly arising suspicions, e.g., in over-simplification. How about this "all eggs in one basket" thingy?Mikkalai 17:49, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Starting separate articles is the idea. The paragraph I put in this article were just brief introductions and links to those. During the 1960s through the 1980s there was a great deal of interest in the West in Soviet culture and Soviet popular culture and a number of books were written about it. For example, the book by Hedrick Smith, a New York Times corresponent who was posted in Moscow, The Russians, Quadrangle/The New York Times Book Co., 1975, hardcover, 527 pages, ISBN 0812905210. On page 105 the author makes the following generalization, "In their authoritarian environment, from childhood onward Russians acquire an acute sense of place and propriety, of what is accepted and what is not, of what they can get away with and what they had better not attempt. And they conform to their surroundings, playing the roles that are expected of them. With a kind of deliberate schizophrenia, they divide their existance into their public lives and their private lives, and distinquish between "official" relationships and personal relationships. This happens anywhere to some degree, of course, but Russians make this division more sharply than others because of political pressures for conformity. So they adopt two very different codes of behavior for their two lives - in one, they are taciturn, hypocritical, careful, cagey, passive; in the other, they are voluble, honest, direct, open, passionate. In one, thoughts and feelings are held in check. ("Our public life is a living lie," commented an experimental physicist) In the other, emotions flow warmly, without moderation." That is just one Western observer. For our purposes how would you briefly summarize such an observation? I had very little contact with Soviet citizens, but I remember some very distinctive behavior from the one group of traveling Soviets I did encounter. "taciturn, hypocritical, careful, cagey, passive" described them very well. (members of a Soviet orchestra). Fred Bauder 18:49, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)

The objections to the paragraph that you want added have nothing to do with the validity of any of the things articulated in that paragraph. Of course there was a great deal of interest in the West in Soviet culture in the 1980s. (BTW, I've actually written more content on Wikipedia about this than you have.) The objection pertains to the placement of the paragraph. Once again, this would be equally off topic to make observations about Swazi culture in the 1980s in the constitutional monarchy article by virtue of the fact that the Kingdom of Swaziland is nominally a constitutional monarchy.

By virtue of the title, this is still an article about a political science definition (like republic, confederation, monarchy, constitutional monarchy, etc.). Thus, the this article is still not a grab-bag of anything anyone can write about any country that has been under a Communist Party-led regime. 172 02:19, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Except this is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary and as noted above the two articles which previously existed have been merged. Unless you have more, that is some reason which serves an encyclopedic purpose I will restore the paragraph. Fred Bauder 11:40, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)

The merger that you mention is completely inconsequential. This is still an article about a Communist state (a constitutional structure in which the state and the Communist Party are embedded in each other), not an article about the history of the Soviet Union (where the paragraph can be reasonably be placed, incidentally). Jtdirl and I stopped you from adding irrelevant, POV content to this article last year, and I will do so again this year. 172 12:04, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Removed pieces

I commented out the following pieces that fell out of context or . If someone cares, may resore it properly. Mikkalai 15:19, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

(!-- ?which term? The term is also used to refer to historical instances of totalitarian socialism (as distinct from democratic socialism). --

(!-- There are various kinds of communism or socialism; some kinds of communism are varieties of ideology, while others are terms for practices or styles of governance.

Marxism holds--among other things--that human history has had and will have a developmental structure, alternating between slow development of technology/economy (and the according philosophy/religion) and a rapidly changing short period of technology/economy. --)

The whole article is a masterpiece of a writing in communist ideology: chaotic, repetitive, lacking overall logic and thus difucult to argue with. Mikkalai 15:19, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Leninism

One of the innovations Lenin introduced into Marxism was the notion of the vanguard party taking the lead, analyzing working class interests, voicing them effectively and on the behalf of the working class, seizing power. While these conclusions are arguably implicit in Marxism they were never part of the thought of Marx, or Engels. Fred Bauder 15:02, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)

I second that. "M-L" is more precise in context of actual states or governments. Mikkalai 18:43, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Reorganization

I'm trying to reorganize the entire lot of communism and related pages, with some others, into some series that makes a little more sense. This is one of the pages we've cited for editing. Details are available at Talk:Communism and Talk:Communist Ideology. This reorganization is still in a hypothetical stage, so no reorganization is likely to take place in the near future. I'd appreciate input from anyone who'd like to participate in a constructive way. -- Oceanhahn 22:58, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Apologists"

Referring to "apologists" for so-called communist states is inappropriate. The word has pejorative connotations. I have replaced this change with something more neutral.

As Oceanhahn mentioned, these pages are in the process of reorganisation. The section on deaths allegedly caused by socialist governments will be greatly expanded so that both sides of this issue can be presented adequately. Shorne 17:21, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)