Talk:Administrative divisions of Ukraine

Ukraine Unassessed

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Page under construction! This article is based on existing Regions of Ukraine page and supposed to be its replace as soon as all necessary links transferred. So please DO NOT MAKE ANY OF THEM A REDIRECT TO OTHER AND DO NOT RENAME THEM until special notice from our team. Thanks everybody for understanding, AlexPU

P.S. HELP! Would someone please drop here a link to explanation how to make a table inside the page. AlexPU

Sure: m:Help:Table or Wikipedia:How to use tables

Could we change the name to "Subdivisions of Ukraine"? "Subdivision" could also be a verb, and sounds a bit like Partition of Poland. The equivalent Russian article is also called Subdivisions of Russia. Update: I did it. —Michael Z. 22:22, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)

"Oblast's" looks like a mistake every time I glance at it, even though I'm used to reading transliterated Ukrainian. Perhaps we should consider the transliteration of Ukrainian (oblast', pl. oblasti) to be a different entity from the English translation (oblast, pl. oblasts). —Michael Z. 21:35, 2004 Sep 17 (UTC)

Oblast names updated

I've finished updating the names of oblasti, and added Alex's tables to the article. Please proof-read the tables.

I think we're almost ready to eliminate Regions of Ukraine (or will it remain as a shortcut page: List of regions in Ukraine)?

What next? Historic regions of Ukraine? An authoritative List of cities in Ukraine (is there a formal definition of city)?

File:Oblasti-test.png

Here's a map I've been working on.

It will take more time to get it ready. I'd like to put a larger one with labels here, or on Regions of Ukraine, and smaller ones on each oblast' page, with the oblast' indicated.

—Michael Z. 21:11, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)

I've added some redirects to all the oblasti. Now e.g. you can get to (e.g.) Cherkas'ka oblast' if you type Cherkaska oblast or Cherkas'ka Oblast'. —Michael Z. 16:44, 2004 Sep 25 (UTC)

Wikiproject

Should we start a formal Wikiproject? There are links to similar projects at Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Footers. —Michael Z. 20:07, 2004 Sep 24 (UTC)

I've created WikiProject Ukrainian subdivisions. I'll move some of the in-progress discussion to the project's discussion page. —Michael Z. 04:00, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)

Oblast capital?

I've removed this sentence about the oblast' center as it made no sense to me: This, however, is not a rule of social or cultural development, environmental or crime issues.. Does "this" refer to the city, or to the way "most developed" is judged? Are economically most developed cities chosen? Or was it intended to mean that each capital does not administer its respective province's education, police and other internal affairs? -Wikibob | Talk 19:04, 2004 Nov 30 (UTC)

Writing Ukrainian

I've noticed that some Ukrainian words are written directly in Ukrainian while others show at Unicode entities. Which is the proper way for these characters to be entered into the article? Vivafelis 13:54, 23 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Current entries are to be written directly. Unicode ones are old, yet unconverted but anyone. Feel free to do that, though. Regards, --Irpen 14:29, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Drogobych and Izmail Oblasts; Moldavian ASSR

I have a few old atlases which say that in fact in the 1950's two more oblasts existed in UkSSR. From an excellent collection of topographical maps here is a 1940 atlas, which on Ukraine's map (don't worry its the site that has the permission) clearly shows the Drogobych Oblast and the Moldavian ASSR, as well as the original 1939 border. I have a few late 1940's atlases which show the Izmail oblast as well (basically the part of Odessa oblast that was annexed from Bessarabia in 1940). So how should we present this quite important information? Kuban kazak 00:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Naming of oblast articles

text moved here from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Subnational entities/Naming Tobias Conradi (Talk) 03:36, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(initially moved from User_talk:Tobias Conradi)

Would you stop renaming oblast' until you freaking hear the objections of other Wikipedians Please stop and revert your renamings, than go to the oblast' and WikiProject Ukrainian subdivisions, substantiate your opinion and wait for the whole discussion. Otherwise, you'll be considered a vandal with all consequences. AlexPU

You're given a 24 hour term to fulfill my denamd until you'll be posted in vandalism in progress and banned users pages. AlexPU

As I told you, I cannot revert. Tobias Conradi 07:32, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I will. And you'll be regarded vandal (and your ass watched) for all your freaking Wikilife. Asshole... AlexPU

Tobias, das war keine gute Idee von dir. Hier haben sich Leute Monate Gedanken über den Namen der Artikel gemacht, ein Projekt aufgelegt, die Oblast-Seiten einheitlich gestaltet (auch in Zusammenarbeit mit der deutschen WP) und dann kommst du und meinst hier umsortieren zu müssen. Die Verwaltungseinheiten der Ukraine (und anderer ehemaliger UdSSR-Staaten) heißen Oblast und nicht Provinz. Ich hoffe, du wirst bei weiteren Aktionen vorher erst mal versuchen, einen Konsens zu finden mit den Leuten, die wesentlich am Aufbau der Artikel beteiligt waren. --Steschke 07:34, 2005 Mar 5 (UTC)

You do not have to tell me whether it was a good idea or not. Or do you have the whople wisdom of the world? Even if some wikipedians thougth about it for several month ... maybe they did not think about it enough? I do not know whether my idea was really good, but I saw a lot of different writings for subnational entities, something what is really annoying. Even in Ukraine you did not standardize all, because sometimes you were speaking of regions. Furthermore this is english wikipedia, for thai or japanese provinces nobody uses the local name. It is really nice to have the name. Maybe it would alos be a good idea to standardize on local names. But than - do it for all. (my opinion.) I will not always look for consensus if I think there is something to improve. We would not have wikipedia here if we would allways make consensus. So you can hope for this, but it will be in vain. Tobias Conradi 17:33, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted the changed articles from the form Kirovohrad Province to Kirovohrads'ka oblast'. What a big waste of time for all of us! Please folks: if you're going to change a body of work that a group of wikipedians has discussed and executed, whether you are right or wrong, talk to them first.

If you want to change this, I suggest you first get consensus from the participants in both Wikipedia:WikiProject Ukrainian subdivisions and Wikipedia:WikiProject Russian federal subjects. —Michael Z. 2005-03-6 01:19 Z

...and with the Ukraine-Mafia on de:WP too. --Steschke 13:19, 2005 Mar 6 (UTC)

thx for pointing this out :-) Tobias Conradi 18:20, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Raion names

I can't find what, if anything, was decided about naming Ukrainian Raions on WP. Should I follow the oblast naming convention and name the raion after the central city, e.g. Chernihiv Raion as opposed to Chernihivs'kyi Raion? Or do we transliterate the raion name, e.g. Chernihivs'kyi Raion? I'm not arguing either way, just want to start building some templates. This particularly affects templates, where cities are sometimes listed along with raions and the 2 lists would be indistinguishable without the suffix on the raion names. So far, the completed templates I've seen indicate that we do not imitate the oblast naming convention when naming raions. Correct?--tufkaa 18:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer to go with the raion's seat location name as more telling to the reader what this is all about. But I don't feel too strong about it. Also, I am not sure whether there are Raions with non-city names, like in cases of Oblasts the Volhynian, Transcarpathian and (former) Crimean ones. If we adopt the convention, we should be consistent. --Irpen 19:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, compare Template:Cherkasy Oblast with Template:Donetsk_Oblast. The Donets'k version seems to make more sense to me. I belive that for the most part, people have been entering empty raion links into the body of WP articles with the suffix, but I may be wrong.--tufkaa 19:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More: Template:Donetsk Oblast spells raions ending in yi (apparently this is more prevalent on Google), while Template:Kherson Oblast finishes them with y. Also, no template so far has a Міста обласного значення section. In reading the Kyiv article, it mentions that Kyiv is a municipality. Is this similar? Lastly, some templates include a Towns section. Is this for CMTs?
I know, I know, "be bold". But I would like to here other's thoughts. I'm playing with the Chernihiv Oblast at User:Tufkaa/Sandbox.--tufkaa 15:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking about the raion names, the Ukrainian Cabinet of Ministers site uses y. I don't really know why I used yi on the Donetsk Oblast template, but it doesn't matter to me which ending we should use for the raion names. About using either Uman Raion or Umansky Raion, if we use the first way then that might confuse some because there are two of the same names on the temp, which is why AlexPU recently changed the Ukraine template, to create disambiguity. But we could list the raions as Zhytomyr Raion instead of Zhytomyr which links to the same article, but that might make the template look too big.

Also, while I was working on the templates, I included the Міста обласного значення into the cities section like in the Donetsk Oblast Template. Am I correct? —DDima ^(talk) 17:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Other than eating up a little more space in the template by including the word "Raion" after each Raion name, it makes sense to do it with Raionsbut since we do it with Oblasts already. Also, using AlexPU's precendent in the Ukraine template, we can include Міста обласного значення in the raions section, like he did for Kyiv (Kyiv City and Kyiv Oblast). So I'll construct the Chernihiv template like that, and then move on by fixing old templates, or creating ones for oblasts which just have "Cities in..." templates.

Any thoughts on CMTs? --tufkaa 17:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that will work out nicely:))). —DDima ^(talk) 17:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I share the view that in any template each item sould be stated once. Therefore, I don't think it's a good idea to dublicate information, like first listing "Raions: Cherkasy City", and then listing "Cities: Cherkasy", with both directing to the same page (as it's in Cherkasy Oblast template). Also, take a note that at the Verhovna Rada website "mista oblastnogo znachennya" are grouped with "mista rajonnogo znachennya" into "mista". I think this is the preferred way, rather than listing "mista oblastnogo znachennya" twice, first as raions, and then as cities. To avoid misunderstanding "Raions" may be listed as "Agriculture Raions" or "Rural Raions", or just "Raions" with explanation provided at the linked page. MapLover 00:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Possible templates

With the goal of standardization, should we create an Infobox template for Ukrainian Oblasts and/or Raions based on the following?

Let me know what you think!--tufkaa 19:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like a resonable idea. Because now they only contain basic info, no governors or whatever they call them, year of oblast formation, geographic details, time zones, etc.... —dima/// 19:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What about Template:Infobox oblast? From the constitution it seems that there are "Oblast Councils" with the councils picking their respective "Council Chairmen" from amoungst their members. (I should probably change it to "Chairperson", now that I'm reading it over...) So I've incorporated this information into the Info box and removed and added what I think worked. Let me know what you think!--tufkaa 20:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ukraine is all one time zone, so I don't know if it counts as vital information as in the North American templates.--tufkaa 20:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like the looks of it and am trying it out right now. But I feel it needs more work, maybe adding licence plate codes (we can get from RU wiki) and other corrections... —dima/// 21:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I tried it at Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast (which was just a stub). We can definitely improve it. I've palced the syntax in the template's talk page. Have fun!--tufkaa 22:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that maybe we should rm the oblast detail map, just put it into the article by itself., because the article looks too bulky. What do you think?? Also, what about GDP...where are we going to get the information? —dima/// 23:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nice template, guys! Few remarks:

Oblast map is needed in addition of the oblast being mapped on Ukrainian map. Ideally, it should be a small map with borders of raions, and cities of oblast subordinance.
"Council seats" is something that nobody cares of.
I would add "Governor" in addition to "Council Chairmen". As of now, governors are less important, so Council Chairmen goes first, and Governor name in the second line.
There are no data for GDP per Oblast in Ukraine. Also, such data, if available, should be called Gross Oblast Product (GOP), similarly to Gross State Product (GSP) for each state in the U.S. But give that it's not available, instead I would use average monthly wage income. Average salary can be given for each year, then the rank of the regions according to the index, and also the salary growth rate compare to the previous year.
For population it would be nice to add annual population growth rate.
I'm not aware of ISO3166-2 and FIPS10-4 abbreviations for Ukrainian regions. I would put there postal code, phone area prefix(es), and regional internet prefix (like "dn.ua" for Donetsk, "dp.ua" for Dnipropetrovsk, etc)