Talk:Crime

US-specific stuff, structure, etc.

My first impression when reading this page was that it was a disorganized mix of US-specific facts, general discussions, and very particular facts. It really needs some attention. David.Monniaux 10:43, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

__________________________________________ This is why I removed what I did:

“psychiatric sentences bypass most rights like due process” – Maybe where you are at, but in my state you have a right to appointed counsel, the highest burden of proof, and a full jury trial just for asking, plus you must be reevaluated periodically.

Sections "institutional immunity, terrorism, drugs, and money laundering."

These sections show little or no knowledge of actual facts or law and rather consist of political rants posted without reference or substantiation. If the information they contained was relevant to anything, it would be only in specific crimes, not in the definition of “crime.”

User:Mneumisi

OK, what do you consider the worst part of the contribution? Let's start from there. FET 04:36, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

The Article - User:Graius

Deterrent to Crime

I found the novel, Deterrent, now on Amazon, gave us the idealic system to deter crime after 9-11.

"The ruling class"

Whoever wrote the first paragraph of this article really has to be joking. Paul 17:48, 22 October 2005 (UTC) PS note that I edited it, removing the stuff that was out of place in the first few sentences of an article on a topic so broad. Paul 17:51, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

The cleanup tag

Overall, the academic standard is very poor. The "General rules" section is not conceptual and therefore is overly U.S.-centric. The section on "Trial" is clearly NPOV (although I did not tag it as such). A benign interpretation of it might consider it one side of a semiotic analysis which examines the narrative content of a trial, but as it stands, it is quite clearly a political attack on the system. What purports to be a classification of crimes is an ad hoc listing of random crimes (some of which are not actually crimes) and not a classification at all. The list that follows under the heading "Reasons" does not list reasons. The "History" section is a hopeless mishmash of material without actually demonstrating how the concept of crime emerged from delicts. etc. I could go on but the whole page needs to be completely rewritten. As soon as I have finished the other work I am doing on the substantive law, I will return to do it. If others wish to pick from this list and start putting things right, feel free to pitch in. David91 02:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

What?

1. Wikipedia strives for NPOV.
2. Explain Jargon. You're speaking in almost unintelligible jargon/gibberish: 'Semiotic analysis,' 'is not conceptual' (what is?), 'etc. If you plan on encoding the article with this language, rendering it unreadable, prepare to face conflict from others.
3. You're coming across very confrontational and arrogant, some consider that to be uncivil. I will try to assume good faith, but you'll have to stop acting like you hold a monopoly on what crime is or isn't.
4. I hope you can correct some of the things you see that are listed as examples of crime, but really aren't, that would be very helpful.
5. I'm removing the clean up tag, I think it's unwarranted.

(Bjorn Tipling 03:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC))

Thank you for trying so hard to assume good faith. Opinion is a most personal part of the human experience. I and the others who have commented above seem to hold different opinions but they are equally valid opinions and deserving of respect. There is no point in a debate at this stage. I will return when I have the time and make the changes I think are necessary. David91 04:07, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

This article has really gone downhill. Unfortunatly I don't have time these days for a major overhual, but it does need it. For example, not only are claims western-centric, but they are geographically biased. Also, what is going on with the "trial" section? It doesn't even make sense. I prefer not to do massive reverts, but I think almost every section of this needs work. Take this as my vote for doing so, and if I get some time I will try to do it myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mneumisi (talk • contribs)

This article really has improved.

Good job! (Bjorn Tipling 20:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)) I think it needs sources though. I see a lot of facts without any verification as to how authoritative those facts are. (Bjorn Tipling 20:10, 25 February 2006 (UTC))

If you identify the facts, I will do my best to provide the sources. I know I tend to take a lot of background information for granted (the penalty for knowing too much). Thank you in advance for your help. David91 03:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Well I think the Mesopotamian law history could use a few sources. I could go in and add a 'need source' tag if you want. I could also help you find sources, I'm a librarian (student). (Bjorn Tipling 16:10, 26 February 2006 (UTC))

One of the best general books to get an overview is Oppenheim's, edited postumously by Erica Reiner; Kramer also useful. I have added the reference. Next reference required? I am tiring so either leave a list or, as suggested above, use the 'need source' tag and I will attend to it as and when strength permits. David91 16:50, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a lot of time today to work on it... but in the next day or two, can go through and review the article and determine what needs more referencing. I can also expand the crime classification portion of the article. The section on "reasons" also is lacking, in my opinion. What do we mean by "reasons"? Instead, I think we need a brief blurb on general causes of crime, what makes people commit crimes... I'm willing to work on that. Also, the "Types of crimes" in one of the infoboxes is helpful. But, I'd like to add a table or infobox that defines some of they key crimes (e.g. robbery vs. burglary, terms that the general public often confuses when they call the police). Some of the other sections, such as trials may need to be summarized more and split into a separate article. I'll do more to review and work on this in the next day or two. -Aude (talk | contribs) 17:21, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the "reasons" section is eliptical and should probably be rewritten. We already have templates for , Template:EngCrimLaw which list the offences but making a new infobox global rather than jurisdiction-centric is problematic. As it stands with the criminology templates, lay readers are referred to reasonably generic material. Are you proposing to discriminate between English and U.S. terminmology for the criminal law? I hesitated whether to remove the links to crimes because of this problem and, in the end, left it because readers would expect to be referred to something on burglary and robbery, as you say. But the majority of the existing pages are specific either to the U.S. or English law. . . I do not think that including thumbnail definitions or explanations on this page is sensible as an alternative for the same reason. Although some of the concepts overlap between the jurisdictions, oversimplied explanations are usually misleading to lay readers depending on their cultural expectations. There is already a page on trials so I have no problem with you editing the "crime" entry down so long as you ensure that the existing trial page is enhanced where appropriate. I have responded to the criminologist removal on the relevant talk page. I have a long list of things to do and I am reluctant to spend too much time here because it delays my progress. I therefore now hand the continuing responsibility on to those sufficiently interested. I will respond to requests for references to the material I have written and will, of course, watch what happens with interest. But, for now, I am off to fill in gaps elsewhere. David91 03:35, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm undecided as to how to deal with the "crime classification" aspect of the article. It definitely needs to be generalized and/or explain the key differences across jurisdictions (including U.S., U.K., but also other parts of the world). As for the trials section, the Trial (law) article is very lacking now. I'll look into if/how to merge the material from here, into there. And finally, please stick around to help with the crime, criminology, and criminal justice topics, as you wish. I think a good goal would be to get this article to featured status. You've already brought it much the way there. Though, I understand if you wish to spend time contributing on other topics, and sure your contributions will be excellent. -Aude (talk | contribs) 05:13, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

As the edit timeline on this talk page shows, I tagged this page for a rewrite back in December and I have only just worked through the cycle to get to it. I have more than a hundred other pages/topics on my list with certain very definite promises made to others to fulfil before I can devote anything more than token time to this page. The problem with this place is that everywhere you look you find error and deficiency and there are only so many hours in the day. So much to do, so little time to do it. David91 05:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Definitely understandable. Not only do I need to work on Portal:Criminal justice, but Portal:Geography needs serious attention, as do its related topics. And many requests for maps... But, criminal justice and criminology need to be my main priorities. -Aude (talk | contribs) 05:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the way to handle making all the discrete articles more coherent is through use of a Portal. Just in the last few minutes, I have started Portal:Criminal justice. My first consideration was whether to call the portal this, or Portal:Criminology. While I don't necessarily consider criminology to be a subtopic of criminal justice, I have gone with the term criminal justice. Understanding of causes of crime, criminal behavior, etc. is all ultimately key for criminal justice policy, crime control, and prevention. Whereas, I can't quite see criminal justice as a subtopic of criminology. Maybe, we can have both as portals. Need to think more how to handle this... -Aude (talk | contribs) 04:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The portal idea is interesting. I have tinkered with your links, picking the most relevant between policy, public policy, and public policy (law). David91 04:36, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Please do tinker. I'm sure you can give valuable input into organizing the topics, as you have a different perspective than mine and can ensure that criminology, criminal justice, etc. are presented in neutral way. My bias is towards and expertise with policing, crime statistics, crime prevention, etc., and as you mentioned on my talk page, Chicago school, environmental criminology, rational choice, etc. And, I also have an American-bias, but am familiar with the U.K. (Home Office), Netherlands, Australia, and Canada. It's definitely important to recognize and explain differences in criminal law and definition of crimes, across jurisdictions. -Aude (talk | contribs) 05:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, with the first infobox, where it lists a few criminologists. I think that needs to go. Listing Michael Maltz there troubles me. I know that Michael wrote the article himself, (a practice strongly discouraged by Wikipedia, as it's difficult for one to be NPOV when writing about oneself). I've gone in after him to cleanup the article and try make in more NPOV. And, I recognize he has contributed a lot to criminology, so won't call for deleting the article (as tends to be done with autobiographical articles). But, there are many other important criminologists that ought to have articles, which I could write. Once that happens, the list of criminologists will be too much for an infobox. Of the ones listed now, it's a *select* list and not necessarily representative. -Aude (talk | contribs) 17:32, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I just copied this comment to Template_talk:Crimin#Criminologists, where this should be discussed. -Aude (talk | contribs) 17:35, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Revert of recent major changes

I just reverted some major changes to the intro and parts of the article by a new user, User:Gregzeng. I was reading the article as part of the review for the Version 0.5 nomination, and was considering rejecting it based on the intro. It seems to me (not a legal expert!) that this user is not adhering to the neutral point of view policy. I think the user could perhaps make the same point by judicious insertion of a few words in the main body of the article (not the intro), and the user should cite the source of the assertion. That would ensure that this view is represented, without it taking over large parts of the article. As I said, I'm not an expert on crime, so others who watch this page can feel free to undo my revert (and my copyedits). We'll hold off at WP:V0.5N until things settle down. Walkerma 06:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)