Talk:Transylvania

Irredentism run amok

This article is a waste of time and effort. Both the Hungarian and Romanian POV's are grossly irredentist. Has anyone considered looking at our history from a Transylvanian POV? Perhaps independence would solve a lot of these issues, but that will not happen in my lifetime. We've spent centuries defending "christian" Europe from the Turks only to get the shaft in the end. The rest of Europe is affraid of a strong power in middle Europe. If we spent less time arguing over who was here first maybe we could get on with more important issues.

A Suggestion

Gentlemen,

As I am sure that you are all aware our history is complicated and, in many cases, contensious. We can argue the "facts" ad nauseam, however, there will always be a compelling arguement from one camp or the other. May I suggest that the article be revised to include ALL sides from a completely NPOV and point out that certain parts of our history are uncertain at best? As it exists, the article and dialogue that accompanies it paints a less than pretty picture. Our history is very long and colourful. I would hate to see someone who is not familiar with our situation get the wrong impression. We might not always agree on some things, but we have all managed to co-exist for centuries, not always on the most friendly terms, but we survived non the less. Rik 06/23/06

Names in the lead

Two variants of Turkish names, including the one I've just removed, are listed at the link for "other languages". That link was put in place a few months back by consensus among the editors then active - the names that are historically the most relevant are already listed, we shouldn't clutter up the lead any more. K issL 13:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I'm not sure of the necessity of having the Romani name in the lead either. Olessi 19:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Transylvania has a large Roma population... —Khoikhoi 01:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to the 2002 census there are 3.4% Transylvanians who declared themselves Roma, figure that much understates the real percent, since many Roma declared themselves Romanians or Hungarians. The real figure might be 7-9%. Here are some external links about undeclared Roma: [1], [2], [3]. Desiphral देसीफ्राल 10:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe some persons might consider Roma from Transylvania a "quiet" community, not in the mainstream media, but this does not mean they don't exist. --Desiphral देसीफ्राल 10:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, defining "Roma" is difficult. Because the boundaries between Roma, on one side, and Romanian and Hungarian, on the other, is rather fuzzy. There are, of course, the "traditional Roma", which you can easily identify. But most of Romanian Romas are in fact sedentarized, and in fact Roma is often identified with the lower classes of the Romanian society. Thus, many Roma "become" Romanian when their social status increases, and many Romanians "become" Roma when their social status decreases.

In fact, the term Roma federates two notions: a classical ethnic group and a sort of "political nation". Dpotop 12:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Never heard of Romanians "becoming" Roma when their social status decreases. What you say is an example of the "quiet community" I wrote above. If Roma are not involved in the mainstream, the others presume their suppositions are true. In fact we are an ethnic group with a clear identity, which does nor dissapear when it is necessary to say to non-Roma that somebody is not Rom. The newspapers wrote that Roma were urged in censuses to declare Romanian or Hugarian ethnicity to reinforce a Transylvanian group or another. Desiphral देसीफ्राल 18:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So, if you say that it's clear-cut, is Stefan Banica jr. rom, or not? Or, are people called "tigani" on the streets rom, or not? My impression is that around a group that is preserving actual rom traditions and language, you have a lot of people that are considered rom for reasons that may be social. Dpotop 18:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see what you mean. I agree that are many (originally) Roma who don't consider themselves Roma. But there are many who have to conceal their identity for all kind of reasons. And in between these views there are all the possible variations. Desiphral देसीफ्राल 20:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, you're running in the same problems as all people that want to define nationality by "blood". It doesn't really work. In a free society, you really can count only what people say of themselves. Just like many Americans of Romanian ancestry are no more Romania, many Romanians/Hungarians/French/etc of Rom ancestry are no more Rom, and it's their choice. And my presumption is that there are people you call Roms that are of Romanian ancestry and were called "Tigani" by the other when their lifestyle degraded. Dpotop 20:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course there are lots of reasons for which a person would declares him/herself not Rom. For one, there is discrimination, indeed. My point is that discrimination, today, is not directed to Roms as an ethnic group, but at Roms as a socio-economic group. Which is as bad, of course, and may make the problem even more complex. Dpotop 20:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Map?

Is there a map of transylvania that can be used for this article?--Scott3 12:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why was this deleted?

Dahn deleted this: ==Transylvania in the future== - - In the hungarian community a lot of people is considering that the independency of Transylvnia would solve the hungarian-romanian conflict.(This disguised conflict, which is a shoal for the future, because the hungarian problems are not emerege.) Some of hungarians think that Transylvania need to be an autonom republic, because a lot of money is taken from Transylnia, but there are romanians too, who belives in autonomy of Transylvania. There are a lot of parties who have some plans about this. Example: Democratic Union of Hungarians in Romania(Uniunea Democrată Maghiară din România), Christian Democratic Party(Partidul Creştin Democrat), Hungarian Civic Alliance (Uniunii Civice a Maghiare).

I don't now why did you delete all this section? There are a lot of true things... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.146.75.26 (talk)

I'm not Dahn, so I won't be able to tell you why he have done this but I can tell you my problems. I think this section was:

A bit POV: "In the hungarian community a lot of people is considering that the independency of Transylvnia would solve the hungarian-romanian conflict." Wikipedia:Avoid weasel terms, Wikipedia:Cite your sources: Who are these "lots of people"? Name them and cite your sources, please.
Poorly written: (I'm not a native speaker myself, but even I could spot several misspellings (eg. "autonom" [autonomous] , "emerege" [emerge], "independency" [independence], Transylnia), ungrammatical sentences (Romanians who belives), etc.)
Too detailed: It would be OK in an article about (say) the Politics of Transylvania, but in this article mentioning that "Autonomy for the counties /w Hungarian majority is the main political goal of the ethnic Hungarian political parties in Transylvania." would be enough. (I may be a bit biased 'coz I hate politics in general, but IMHO detailed description of these political goals and "the reasons behind them" should be "dealt with" in the articles about these parties.) --194.152.154.2 03:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Native speaker or not, I agree wholeheartedly. It is probably beyond the rules of Wikipedia but an independent Transylvania is something that a lot of ex patriots (like me) would like see. Perhaps a serperate article? There has been quite a bit of news about this WRT the Szeklers recently. 07/04/06

What the hell is this about? A separate article about your imaginary world? What does "ex patriots" even mean? What does "a lot" mean? How does local autonomy come to mean the same as independence, and why should it even be a matter for debate on wikipedia when such a thing is not even debated over there? Of all the "political forces" cited above, only one (the Civic Alliance) has arguably pushed for a high level of autonomy (and not "for Transylvania", but for regions inside "Transylvania"), and it's currently appealing to some hundreds of people. The other Hungarian Party is (whoa, surprise!) in government in Bucharest. And I don't even know what the Christian Democratic Party is: the former PNŢ? Dahn 07:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't always agree with Dahn but now I think the deleted paragraph was not accurate and was POW. --KIDB 08:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Given the lack of proof of notability (not to mention the poor English), Dahn was absolutely right to delete the paragraph. I've never heard of efforts towards the autonomy of Transylvania as a whole; I've only heard of this (which is in the right place, clear, and perfectly sufficient, in my opinion). K issL 09:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ex patriot from the verb, expatriate: etymology: Medieval Latin expatriatus, past participle of expatriare to leave one's own country, from Latin ex- + patria native country, from feminine of patrius of a father, from patr-, pater father...

Since the Unification many people of all the major ethnicities have left Transylvania for economic and political reasons. Believe or not, there is now and has always been a lot of discussion about what the future may hold. Reunification is more than unlikely. After what Germany has gone through I don't think Budapest would even be remotely interested in having Transylvania dropped on its doorstep. I agree with this section being deleted from the article because I don't think this is the appropriate forum for it, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss autonomy or independence as fantasy. 07//05/06

The map

The text of the map with light yellow/dark yellow needs to be clearer. I saw that KIDB almost fully deleted the text I added. But where did those regions came from? Didn they come from the Austrian Empire?

And isn't the light yellow part the hystorical principality of Transylvania? Dpotop 12:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, not from the Austrian Empire. The Transylvania Region is a bit older than the Habsburgs and older than the Principality of Transylvania. You know: the part of the medieval Kingdom of Hungary that was behind the forests :-)

You may be right, the text can be simplified, but you were the one who started to write the long explanation. --KIDB 12:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

establishing a convention about Transylvania

i would like to edit the article Transylvania in an objective way. I will express my POV hoping to establish a convention that will allow consequent changes on every article where Transylvania is reffered to. these are my POVs about Transylvania:

1.)Transylvania was a principality and a province. Criztu 16:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Only for a short period in history. --fz22 08:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

thx for comment, refined for precision Criztu 13:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

2.)Today, Transylvania as a legal entity (administrative division) doesnt exist.. Criztu 16:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, not, but geographicaly is still widely used. (even on road-maps) Therefore I think it is needless to do this. --fz22 08:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

refined points 1) and 2) for precision. thx for comment Criztu 12:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

3.)Romanians, Magyars, Germans, Czechs and Slovaks and others citizens of Romania dont have Transylvania written in their ID paper as an identifyiable address, but Counties of Romania (eg. "citizen X lives in city Ploiesti, Prahova County, Romania", not "citizen X lives in city Ploiesti, in Wallachia, Romania" nor "citizen X lives in city Ploiesti, Prahova county, Wallachia, Romania". In historical context, a population lived in Transylvania (eg "Michael the Brave was born in Wallachia") Criztu 16:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

see my comment above --fz22 08:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

refined point 3) for precision, thx for comment Criztu 12:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

4.)The address of a locality in Romanian documents is given by county not by historical region (eg. "city Ploiesti, Prahova county, Romania" not "city Ploiesti, Prahova county, Wallachia, Romania" nor "city Ploiesti, Wallachia, Romania"). In historical or touristical or additional information paragraphs, a locality is, or was situated in Transylvania. (eg, "city Ploiesti is situated in Wallachia, and it was founded during the reign of Michael the Brave"), but not in the lead paragraph Criztu 16:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How can a locality "not be situated in Transylvania"? Does Transylvania not exist? It's perfectly factual to say that Ploieşti is situated in Prahova County AND Wallachia. Whether Wallachia is particularly relevant as a division is another issue.

Ronline ✉ 13:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

through these points i try to be laconic. i refined point 4) for precision. i am trying to make it understood that lead paragraph about a contemporary place of Romania must contain information about contemporary realities. Transylvania as an address on legal documents of Romania does not exists as Duchy of Milan does not exist anymore. we dont see a leading paragraph in the Milan article stating "Milan is a city in the Duchy of Milan, in Italia" (i could find a better example perhaps, but thats the idea) Criztu 22:12, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

now wouldnt it be laughable to have "city Ploiesti is situated in Prahova county, in Muntenia, in Wallachia, in Romania" ? nobody can deny Muntenia is a historical subdivision of Wallachia. i hope i make myself understood Criztu 22:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is why we should use common sense when we decide what divisions to include and what not to include. In fact, I actually disagreed with the idea of placing regions in articles about communes and villages simply because they made the lead sentence very long and hard to read "locality XYZ is located in County Y, Transylvania, Northwestern Romania" is quite clunky. However, there is a big difference between the Duchy of Milan and Transylvania. The Duchy of Milan fails to exist today - it was a political division only. Transylvania, on the other hand, very much continues to constitute an informal region of Romania, that is not officially an administrative unit, but that culturally is still important. In the same way that smaller regions such as the "Oaş region" and "Ţara Moţilor" all exist, and are in no way historical. There would be nothing wrong, for example, in saying that a certain commune is in Ţara Moţilor. As I said before, Wikipedia is not an official geographical/statistical almanac, but a more complete encyclopedia, and cultural divisions can hence also be included, alongside political-administrative divisions. Finally, in my opinion we should stop being so tight about the political implications of everything and use common sense to formulate a lead paragrpah that gives the most information but is not too clunky or tangled.

Ronline ✉ 02:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My common sense tells me that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia built by the model of Britannica. Conventions established in Britannica are to be discussed and evolved in order to make Wikipedia better. one can not say "since wikipedia is not official, we dont have to meet the standards of Britannica. i will paste here the model i presented on my talkpage

Targu Mures is the capital of Mures County, in central Romania

Geography

The city lies in the valley of Mures river in the Transylvanian Plateau at the base of the Eastern Carpathians etc.

History

First mentioned in historic documents as Marosvasarhely by the magyars [...] a city of Transylvania, a city of Habsburg empire [...] a city of Hungarian kingdom

Population

Mures county has a population ... etc. Ehnic Hungarians reffer to it as Maros. etc.

the following convention exists in Britannica about river Mures

Mures (in romanian; Maros in hungarian;) is a river in south-central Europe, rising in Romania (etc.) and flowing into Tisza in Hungary. this means Romania and Hungary share authority over Mures river.

Targu Mures (romanian; Marosvasarhely in hungarian) is a city in Mures county in central Romania. i am not entirely sure about the convention in this case, i supose it is "Marosvasarhely appears in documents of recent history, and is kept as legacy name

Mures county is situated in north-central Romania, area ... capital Targu Mures. this means Mures county is solely administrated by Romania.

as u can see Britannica doesnt mention Transylvania region in the lead paragraph of not even one of the 3 articles. it gives information about Transylvania in the history section, or cultural section, if such "transylvanian culture" exists. Criztu 12:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

5.)A County of Romania has precedence/preemption over Transylvania in articles that refer to the teritory of today Romania, that was once the teritory of Transylvania. where the employment of a County of Romania is impossible Transylvania will be used (i cant find such situation to exemplify) Criztu 16:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Might I suggest confining the main reference to the historical region in the county infobox? I can see this alternative avoiding both info clutter and the impression that Romania is decentralized on a regional basis: add "historical region" or "informal region" to all counties and there you go. Btw, the county infobox also needs to leave some room for county heraldics. Dahn 20:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

6.)Romanians from Transylvania proclaimed Union of Transylvania with Romania in 1918

7.)Consult the definition of Annexation before connecting Annexation with Trianon and Transylvania

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