Talk:Antisemitism/Archive 20

Earlier discussions have been archived in (note capitalisation):

Danny, you slander me with ad homenin attacks, yet simultaneously claim that I am writing baseless comments about you? Sigh. I am sad to see that you are still trying to create flamewars, and still treating this entry as your own private domain. Also, I am saddened to see you still repeating base lies about me. As Wikipedia readers are well aware, I am both well read in this subject, and I also demonstrate intellectual humility by agreeing with mainstream research and scholarship on this topic. In fact, contrary to Danny's lie, I have notbeen disagreeing with Danny's scholarship on this entry. he simply is making things up, and raging about a debate which does not even exist. In fact, I have repeatedly stated that I found his recent additions to this article correct and useful. RK

I am disturbed by only two points: (A) In violation of standard Wikipedia protocol, he refuses to allow a summary of this long article to exist, and he rejects every definition of anti-Semitism, except for two out-of-context sentences, from one author. Ironically, that same author himself has defined anti-Semitism in other ways! As others here have also pointed out, Danny's academic description is of little use since it is just not clear. No one is attacking his description of historical events. We merely are saying that he doesn't always write clearly, and that the introduction needs something simpler and clearer. This is no reason to fly into a rage. RK

Do not project your anger at me either. That is not acceptable by any standards, Wikipedia or other. Most importantly, you have recently repeated again and again that you do not accept Chomsky's theories on the Middle East conflict because even though he has studied and written extensively on the topic, he is a linguist. I wonder, then, what basis you have for using Sartre as the starting point for an introduction to Jewish history. Was he, by chance, an authority in Jewish history? I don't think so. You don't think. Danny 03:11 Jan 30, 2003 (UTC)

Danny, your rage is clouding is your judgement. Further, it now seems that you simply are not as well read on this subject as you claim, because you obviously know nothing about this specific topic. (Either that, or you are feigning ignorance of other points of view because of your personal hatred topwards anything I write, no matter how factual, or much I agree with you.) Further, stop attacking statements that no one ever made. No one here claimed that Sartre is Jewish historian. Rather, as was obvious, a quote from him was used because it is a standard defintion of anti-Semitism that is easy to understand, instead of your proposal, which is hard to parse and easy to miscontrure. Calm down. As I have said before, I welcome your participation and scholarship, but it is hard to work with you when you fly into a rage so easily. Just chill out, man. RK

RK - I put in the disclaimer which you found distasteful, not Danny. I still think that's a good idea. Wiktionary is the correct place to debate definitions - wikipedia is not. This article doesn't need a hard and fast definition of anti-Semitism, any more than the definition article does. What it needs is a working definition, so that people understand that when we use the word anti-Semitism in this article, we're talking about whatever it is that we are talking about. That definition needs to be quick and snappy and, for NPOV, it needs to be made clear that it's a working definition rather than a statement of fact about the English language. Martin

I am not sure why you think we disagree. I totally agree with all of this, Martin! Please do not believe what Danny tells you about me. For whatever reason, he often puts words in mouth, and then attacks positions I do not have. (Remember his bizarre claims that I held that the Jews were some kind of "racially pure" people? How bizzare! Not only did I not say that, I repeatedly and explicitly stated the exact opposite.) RK

I was reading your words, not Danny's. From [1]

"RK (Removing a ridiculos and offensive disclaimer. Danny may think it wise to refuse to explain what anti-Semitism is, but the definition of this term MUST be in this article)"
"RK ((A) Removing polemical jab at me. There is still no excuse for refusing to offer a simple definition of the subject. ...)"

I'm slightly confused that you appear to agree with me here that the disclaimer is a good idea, but in recent changes you've removed that disclaimer twice. Could you clarify? Martin

From what Ive seen RK, you don't need any help with putting bodyparts in your own mouth....

But I digress. This isnt about you, or I, and I apologise if you feel singled out. In trying to sort out some of these issues, we often make the mistake of stepping on each other's toes, flying off the handle, and resorting to rudeness (a sample of which you just read above) - Most arguments are based on some "misunderstanding - Ive found. And defensiveness is something I quickly pick up on as a symptom of a deeper, more innate miscommunication, I think you may be right to point out that you and Danny arent really arguing over much, it looks like splitting hairs to me. By the way, everyone please read Wikipedia:Abundance and redundancy - an informal write-up, concocted last night in my frustration... -Stevert

1. While proofreading, I made a potentially sensitive change: added "they hold that" in front of "the conceptual denial of the right of Jews for a state is indicative of considering Jews inferior", since the latter sentence looks dubious to me. There might be other reasons to "conceptually" deny Jews the right to a state. Perhaps some were even brought front by jewish antizionists, for religious reasons. After all, a few prophets stood against the (old) state(s) of Israel-Juda, if I remember well. --FvdP 23:16 Jan 30, 2003 (UTC)

I'll agree with that. Another possible reason to deny the Jews this is because one denies the very existance of a generalised "right for a state", whether it be claimed by Jews, gypsies, micronationalists, or indeed wikipedians. That's not anti-Semitic, that's a certain perspective of statehood. Martin

2. I fail to see a reason for the disclaimer about the definition. What's the difference between an encyclopedic definition and a dictionary definition, apart that details of language use may be omitted from the encyclopedic one ? What's un-dictionaryish in the current definition ? BTW, the Wiktionary significantly reproduces the Wikipedia definition to start its own article. --FvdP 23:16 Jan 30, 2003 (UTC)

I agree. the disclaimer is somewhat concocted and completely illogical "reasoning" for not explaing Anti-semitism clearly, as a dictionary might. "Wikipedia not being a dictionary:" means something else entirely; dont make articles for words that can be explained simply, or are better incorporated else where. This isnt such an article, and to start with a definition is not only valid, its the standard. -Stevert

The problem, for me, is that a definition of anti-Semitism appears (based on this talk page, etc) to be highly controversial. The book I've just finished reading (Semites and Anti-Semites) defines anti-Semitism as Jew-hatred that goes beyond "normal" racial and religious prejudice and aims at Jewish extermination. That's a very much more narrow definition than this entry uses. I'm sure others would press for a wider definition than this entry gives.

Starting with a definition is absolutely a good idea, but I'm nervous of the potential for bias unless we make it clear that this is a definition, not the definition. I'm also nervous of the potential for the definition section of the article expanding so much that it becomes unhelpful. If you're not convinced those are good reasons, then I'll happilly make way. :)Martin

The real problem is specialysis - specialization + paralysis (quote me). Like Danny and I discussed above, the danger in allowing concepts to become too specialized is that no one else can discuss them. Of course, this might be ok with some Jews, who might (out of defensiveness) say: "We define all aspects of our identity, including the terms, and those to whom those terms apply."

I dont buy it. Its just Enronomics, of a sort - applied to ethnic theory. Some people are unclear on ethnicity and just how broad it is; Wikipedians might form an ethnic group of a particularly informed, contentious group of people. Usually though, it has something to do with geography, and culture, and aspects of culture such as religion, language - anything that creates deliniations between people. Color - ironically has only recently been an aspect of ethnic distinctions, as justification for slavery and all. It deeper than that, but...

I particularly dislike RK's notion that anti-Semitism is an "invention" - that is to say it cant possibly mean anything else other than what the 'coiner' of the phrase originally said. It disavows the logical reading of the term, which is to effectively load up the term (loaded terminology ) with extra, irrelevant, over-specialized garbage... not that it cant be explained, in the background... but the term means something... and that something is what it means. -Stevert

You misunderstand. That is not my view. It is a historical fact that the word was coined for this sole purpose. Further, the term does mean something. It means "hatred of Jews". It always has meant this, and still does. You can't suddenly rewrite the dictionary, and now claim that it means "hatred of Arabs", or "hatred of Persians", or hatred of "Akkadians". The term has never meant "hatred of people who speak Semitic derived languages". That's just illegitimate historical revisionism. RK

RK is precisely right in this point. This is an interesting case in which, while Semitism historically referred to all those languages, Anti-Semitism is, curiously, not an antonym, and never referred to anything but hatred for Jews, latter-day revisionism notwithstanding. Anti-protestantism does not denote opposition to protest, nor does Anti-catholicism denote opposition to universalism. Ortolan88 18:00 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)

What purpose is the term "anti-Semitism" used for? Clue me in. Maybe we can look at how its used. Lets look at recent press - "anti-semitism this ... anti-semitism that..." excuse me for being skeptical of your "purpose". Harrassment, you say? Perhaps my disagreement with you, on the subject of what you might call anti-Semitism, is itself anti-Semitic..? Is anyone going to staple their tongues to that tennis ball?

(interrupting... ):This word was invented to express hatred of Jews. Stop lying, and pretending that means something else. RK

continued:And If RK is "precisely right" this time, is he otherwise right all the rest of the time? you make my point, Ortolan, in your precision. There is no precision, only inclusion'. Like God, - that thing which we can point to without being able to comprehend how inclusive it is in the least.., He who transcends all concepts is the superior being. So it is for all classification. The more general, more inclusive meaning for the term is the most valid. Forget the history. Only bookworms deal with history as a static set of details. How stagnant. How letter of the law. You perhaps think, like Antonin Scalia, that the letter of the law is strong. Nonsense. words reveal flaw. And the exploit of such is what I object to: as long at anti-Semitism remains a mere political code-word, it can be used as ad hominem for ad infinitum. perhaps this is what you mean by purpose.

And Finally, this might be a cheap shot but...

"You can't suddenly rewrite the dictionary" -Rk again...

Wikipedia is not a dictionary. -Stevert

No, it is not a dictionary, but that does not mean that there cannot be articles about words, or that there cannot be definitions of words in articles. That prohibition is aimed at stubs that do no more than define their topics, and is not, so far as I know, intended to keep definitions and etymologies out of encyclopedia articles, which often include them as a normal part of the discussion. I haven't been involved with RK pro or con, but the history of the word, which is surely germane to an article on the topic, is as he states it. Ortolan88

Hmm, I think I will dispute that anti-Semitism has always and solely referred to hatred of Jews rather than other "Semitic races". Official Nazi philosophy was to oppose all the so-called "Semitic races", both Jews and Arabs, because both threatened the "purity" of the Aryan race. The Nazis themselves called this philosophy "anti-Semitic". Of course, this Nazi philosophy was riddled with contradictions, and in practical terms the Nazis killed vastly more Jews than any other "Semitic" people.

I'm not entirely clear what my point might be here... ;-) Martin

Hi, Martin. Actually, that's not exactly accurate. Hitler did meet with the Mufti of Jerusalem and together they drew up plans for concentration camps in the Middle East. In Germany, the policy of anti-Semitism was centered on Jews. In North Africa (which was, in part under Nazi control for a time) no discriminatory measures were taken against the Arab population (apart from the normal measures taken against any occupied people), while Jews from Libya were deported to Auschwitz. Danny 16:12 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)

Like I say, the Nazi philosophy was riddled with contradictions, and that was one of them. But in theory at least, as it was laid down in Mein Kampf, all the Semitic peoples were bad news. Martin

For what it's worth -- Adolf Hitler did not coin the term "anti-Semitism". Wilhelm Marr did. He was a proto-Nazi political agitator in Germany in the 1870s, who founded a racialist group called the "League for Anti-Semitism". He wrote specifically that the term was intended as a replacement for the older word Judenhass (Jew-hating). He wasn't talking about Arabs. --FOo

That's very true. However, Wilhelm Marr doesn't have a monopoly on the meaning of any word, even one that he coined. It is a fact that Hitler and others used the term in this broader sense over 50 years ago. Hence I'm disputing the idea that this usage is just "latter-day revisionism", as has been claimed. Martin

Hi, Martin. Myself and two historians specializing in the field have spent a while trying to find the source of your claim that Hitler used the term anti-Semitism in a much wider sense to inlcude people other than Jews. We can't find it. What is your source? Admittedly, Nazi "racial science" was complex and convoluted, but we can't seem to find any reference to what you say. On the other hand, we know of about thirty volunteer units of Muslims in the Wehrmacht and SS. They were mostly Tatars, Uzbeks, and Chechens, but there was also a Muslim Legion in the SS. For an easy to find websource, try http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/austria/673/armshields/armshields.htm You will notice if you scroll down the page there is an arm patch for a Frieden Arabien unit. There would not be such a thing if they were not deemed Aryan or relatd peoples. Danny 15:30 Feb 4, 2003 (UTC)

That's irritating. It was second source - via a book which had seemed (perhaps I was mislead) fairly impartial. I'll retrieve the book this weekend, find the exact sections, and see what I can discover to back it up, if anything. Plus, of course, check that I didn't manage to misread entire sections! In the meantime, I'll move the relevant section to user:MyRedDice/Scratch. Martin 15:39 Feb 4, 2003 (UTC)

Poor thinking and discourse about anti-semetism serve to fuel anti-semites in their beliefs. Only a rigorous NPOV article can serve to reduce prejudice. Anything less is unacceptable to this community. The city I live in, Toronto Canada, dealt with its white supremists (most often Jew Haters, besides anti-Islamic and homophobic) by fighting them eye for eye in pitched battles on the streets. A.R.A. like them, or loath them, chased the racist fringeout of Canada's largest city. White Supremists are still in the hinterlands where they have moved to regroup. Anti-semetism is not acceptable to voice in T.O.

The solution to this ongoing problem lies in the correct use of the talk pages and in proper refactoring technique. For what its worth. Two16

I think we all agree on clarity as valid aspect of NPOV. Im not sure its in everyone's interests to attain this clarity with all terms. Granted, words are always changing and its impossible to nail them down, like with any symbol, without losing some parts of its meaning. Perhaps this is what some object to. This doesnt mean we dont strive for clarity, does it? -Stevert

You're a damned liar, Stevert. Words do have meanings. The problem is that you are systematically trying to cleanse Wikipedia of references to anti-Semitism, and trying to deny that it exists. That in of itself is an anti-Semitic act. RK

Robert, you'll get more support from others (like me) if you'll abstain from insulting people you disagree with. Take a lesson from what happened to me on the mailing list lately. I used the word disingenous loosely, and a dozen follow-up posts accused me of attacks (plural) on other contributors' character, or defended me -- all of which was a big waste of time. --Uncle Ed

Yes, Two16, your absolutely correct. And the developments Danny, and Foobar bring up are interesting too, although Im sure they dont appreciate being called "revisionists." "Wilhelm Marr doesn't have a monopoly on the meaning of any word, even one that he coined." This is the exact argument I used against someone with Dice's persuasion... and now, he brings it up to refute the so-called "revisionist" point of view (actually, the informed NPOV view). What strange bedfellows.... -Stevert

Just what exactly are you trying to say? I'm finding all of this hard to follow. --Uncle Ed

I think I misread Martin's statement. apologos, martin. -Stevert

Woo! :)

I'm very happy that Danny pulled me up on that fact, because it gives me a chance to check one of my sources for bias. Also, I suggest we split off talk about the etymology to talk:anti-Semitism (etymology) or talk:anti-Semitism (word). That should make it easier to follow, right? Martin

No it wouldnt. We 'anti-Semites' must make a stand here :)...-Stevert

I think we can take the stand better in a talk article that summarises:

All the different wikipedians who have come along and said what we're saying now
All the different sources they have used to demonstrate that this minority usage exists

Anyway, I'll create the page, but I'll summarise, not copy or move. If nothing else, it'll serve as a way for people like me to quickly review the past debate and avoid duplication... Martin

No. Splitting and going off somewhere else, effectively means you concede your points here. Its one thing to take notes. But this must be resolved. As it stands the article is deplorably biased, unclear, and based on very crude and politicized standards for its application. If you agree, then there must be work done here. -Stevert

I've created some notes.

I've also changed the article in response to some of the things said by Clutch. He was concerned that often no distinction is made between strong anti-Semitism, which is what Hitler had, weak anti-Semitism, which is what Wagner may have had, and rational opposition to some aspects of Jews or Jewish culture or Jewish religion or Jewish politics, which is what Clutch has. I've copied and reworded content from homophobia to try and make a start on this, since I think the issues are essentially parallel. Martin

Upon some reflection it occurs to me, that the term "anti-anything" means simply the inverse of that thing. Follow? You really only have to define the thing itself, and the meaning of "anti" is its polar opposite. Hence anti-gravity is the inverse of ... Gratned its not as clear cut as that, each develops an idependent history of its understanding - gravity was known long before antigravity. So there can be a history of this topic; I'm not saying that this article should only be an blip that says "the opposite of Semitism". Of course not. But it does follow naturally that Semitism should be defined - if only to help clarify the meaning of its inverse. I'll get started right away. :) -Stevert

I do not agree that "anti" x simply means the inverse of x -- maybe it would in a mathematical system, but not in languages like German and English, which have different rules of discourse. In any eent, "Anti-Semitism" does not mean "against 'semitism,'" it means "against Jews." Slrubenstein