Talk:Hebrew calendar
Template:Featured article is only for Wikipedia:Featured articles.
An event mentioned in this article is an October 7 selected anniversary.
The Essenes were something like 4 or 500 years after the Babylonian captivity. That needs to be made clear - if they really were resisting a calendar, it was one that was VERY well established. I, for one, am suspicious of any categorical statements about who the Essenes were and what they believed without actual sources listed. --MichaelTinkler
I think the source is the Dead Sea Scrolls, which I suppose may or may not represent the Essenes, depending on exactly who the Qumran community were, which we don't know with a lot of certainty. Not sure what if anything other sources on Essenes (Philo? Josephus?) have to say about it. Unfortunately I can't give any references... I read it somewhere, I can't remember where (a modern secondary source, of course!).
Possible explanations of 500 year gap: maybe it did take that long for the calendar to be established, maybe some sections of society preferred different calendars, maybe Essenes have a very long history, maybe they wanted to ressurect the "purity" of the past...
I agree someone needs to research this properly. -- Simon J Kissane
Well, no one suggests they were a very old movement in anything that I've read. More likely they were cranks, which would run true to the course of ascetic movements in all religions! One of these days I'll get around to writing about Old Calendarist Orthodox, though it would help if there were already something at Eastern orthodox to branch off of. Your 'some sections' has a good possibility - the Palestinian and Babylonian traditions were never entirely unified (hence the 2 Targums, etc., etc.) --MichaelTinkler
The Hebrew for "month" is "chodesh" (most often) or "yerach". "Chadosh" means "new", and "yareach" means "moon". I think that's pretty clear: they went by new moons from the beginning. -phma
By the way, Is the hebrew year slow by 1 day every x years, or is the hebrew calendar slow every x years? If we were talking about a clock, we would refer to the clock itself, not the hours. I'm not sure which is correct. -D
Actually it is not correct to say that the Hebrew calendar is slow by one day every x years, because you are referring only to the year with respect to the seasons and not the month with respect to the moon phase. This too is slow, but much less slow.
I'd say The Hebrew calendar year is about one day slow every 220 years.
-KP
The references I've seen that claim that Israelites used a solar calendar are all based on:
- The reckoning of days used by Noah, who lived long before there were any Israelites;
- The Book of Enoch, which if Enoch wrote it was written long before there were any Israelites; or
- The Essenes, who lived several centuries after the Jews were taken to Babylon.
I am therefore changing it to reflect the use of a lunisolar calendar as deduced from Bible verses. See http://www.karaite-korner.org/new_moon.shtml for explanation. -phma
A question:
- Did the Hebrew calenday actually start in 3761 BC -- that is to say, someone said "this is now year 1" -- or was it backdated, in the same way as the Julian calendar -- for example, someone said "this is now the year 2164 (or whatever), based on our religious calculations"?
The Torah relates that Moses was told how the calendar was to be calculated soon after the Jews left Egypt. However, Noah's flood which was much earlier, seems to be calculated using the same calendar. It is possible that the Torah simply backdates the calendar until then. However, there is a dispute in the Talmud about which month the world was created in, which might indicate that the calendar was in use at the creation of the world. However, that could also be considered backdating.
The short answer is that the calendar was in use from year 1, because God was the author of the calendar and so he used it at the creation.
It is, however, curious how the calendar worked before it was given to the Jewish people, as the calendar allows and requires human intervention in setting its dates. Nowadays, human intervention is not required simply because all the dates have been set in advance through calculation, but that is only because the system for human intervention looked like it would break down. Sometime in the future, however, the old system will be reinstated. Ezra Wax
- Counting the number of years since Creation began about the time that the Talmud was written with three or four sequential epochs, whereas the modern epoch was effectively chosen by Maimonides in 1187. Before the Talmud, Jews used other counts of years such as the Seleucid Era, called the Era of Contracts, and a count since the destruction of the second temple. I'll be adding a History section soon, after I consult my sources again to iron out some disagreements.
Joe Kress
I removed these sentences:
Thus, there are up to 1080 parts per hour, 24 hours per day, and 7 days per week.
Since the Hebrew month depends on a lunar cycle, the average lunar month is
given the name "Molad" (for "birth" of the new moon), and is 29 days, 12 hours,
793 parts long.
The first part repeats what was just said and is confusing due to the "up to". The second part is now expanded into a new paragraph. The value of 0.6 sec at the end is my computation using a program of S. L. Moshier that implements the lunisolar model DE404 from JPL. Some sources make it 0.5 sec.
The article is looking good. One thing missing is a history. There is a tradition that the algorithmic calendar in its modern form was introduced by Hillel II in 359 CE, but there is no solid evidence of it until centuries later. Even towards the end of the 1st millenium CE there were disputes over details. I'll add a paragraph when I get a chance; or someone else can!
--- bdm
Is there a difference between the Hebrew calendar and Jewish calendar? I have seen both termed used. Is one more appropriate than the other? --Andrew
In my experience both terms are used interchangeably. Ezra Wax
Barleycorn
Can someone confirm the statement that a Hebrew 'part' is also known as a 'barleycorn'? I can find no corroboration that a 'barleycorn' is anything but a measurement of length (3 barleycorns = 1 inch). - KeithTyler 17:24, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
- This information comes from Otto Neugebauer. He discusses it in two places:
"The astronomy of Maimonides and its sources", Hebrew Union College Annual 22 (1949) 321-60, p. 325; and
"Astronomical commentary", The Code of Maimonides, book 3 treatise 8, Sanctification of the New Moon, tr. Solomon Gandz, Yale Judaica Series, volume XI (New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 1956) p. 117.
- He dismisses Maimonides' speculation that an hour had 1080 parts because all numbers from 1-10, except 7, are divisors, noting they are also divisors of 360. He states that the "barleycorn" is an Old Babylonian unit of time, called she (še) in Sumerian, originally equal to 1/180 shekel. He then diverges. In "Astronomy of Maimonides" he states 1 barleycorn = 1/180 cubit in Seleucid ephemerides. 1 cubit = 2 1/2°, thus 15° = 1080 barleycorns, noting that 15° = 1/24 day = 1 hour. In "Astronomical commentary" he states 1 barleycorn = 1/6 finger in late Babylonian texts. 1 finger = 1/12°, 1° = 72 barleycorns, 15° = 1080 barleycorns. Finally, he notes that 1 finger = 6 barleycorns is well known in Arabic, Syriac, and Sanskrit astronomy.
— Joe Kress 04:53, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
- How, again, does cubit, a unit of length, get transformed into a unit of angle? - KeithTyler 17:11, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
BCE vs BC
Because this is a featured article on 11th Oct 2004 several changes and reversions have been made to the date format. Arguably BC is not preferred in an article about the Hebrew calendar. However, since some reference to the western calendar has to be made in this article we should look to Wikipedia guidelines for some advice. As far as I can ascertain we should use the version chosen by the original author. Again, as far as I can ascertain, this would appear to be BC/AD. So let's stick with it. At least everyone knows what it means, which is not the case for BCE/CE. Arcturus 21:57, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I object. BC is not only not preferred in an article about the Hebrew calendar, but the use of BC is unacceptable by some Jews (Jewish historians use CE/BCE). Furthermore, Wikipedia guidelines state that CE/BCE is just as acceptable as AD/BC. The Manual of Style does not defer to the version chosen by the original author, instead it states that the original author can choose any version they like and it will eventually be made to conform with the Manual of Style by future copyeditors.
— Joe Kress 05:37, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
- Do Jews object to the term "Gregorian calendar"?141.6.204.14
- If there is no objection to 'Gregorian' why is there to BC - or maybe there isn't? After all, its use in this article is merely to refer to another (christian based) calendar. I'm sure an article on the western calendar which referred a date to its equivalent in the Hebrew calendar would use the Hebrew notation in such a reference and no one would be bothered, so why bother about BC/AD in this article?