Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Ste4k

General Comments

This user is unimaginably annoying and frustrating to even think about. I really don't want to post here. They are combative, unable to fathom that other entities have their own minds and viewpoints, and highly emotionally unstable. Wikipedia is WP:NOT a place to get therapy for oppositional defiant disorder. --mboverload@ 00:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I would very much like to see a radical change in her behavior. I wish the best for everyone. I do have considerable doubt if this is even possible, however. A small part of my doubt comes from her response itself (the rest comes from her editing of articles). In her response she completely fails to see that she has a problem. Instead, she places the blame on everyone else. She seems to be in complete denial. This may simply be her personality. I cannot recall seeing anyone act like her before. This is not an attack or a diagnosis but I have wondered if she has some underlying personality disorder such as OCPD [[1]]. If this is the case then she may be able to alter her behavior for a short period of time now but then revert back after this process is over. I do not think this action should be decided by positive behavior changes either during this process or since she first learned that it was being prepared. If this is her core personality, then WP may not be the best place for her talents.--Who123 18:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The summary of Ste4k's actions, while generally quite fair, does omit the fact that certain users have been rather provocative towards Ste4k as well. Like I said earlier [2], for example, Andrew Parodi seemed to have a knack for knowing how to irritate Ste4k. But that being said, there are two rules for functioning smoothly in civilization: do not offend, and do not be easily offended. Unfortunately, Ste4k seems to be extremely quick to take offense, and seems to take the worst interpretation of any ambiguities in others' statements, rather than asking for clarification or assuming good faith. Kickaha Ota 01:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not think her behavior should be excused because of other's behavior. Her behavior is too widespread with too many different people. I have seen two types of behavior. One is described in the article. The other is to use flattery to manipulate people.--Who123 18:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Let me also say that I strongly object to the reference to WP:DICK in "Applicable policies and guidelines". First of all, it's neither a policy nor a guideline, as it very clearly says. Second, it implies that Ste4k's being intentionally provocative, and I'm not convinced that that's the case -- I think it may just be in Ste4k's nature to read the worst possible motive into people's written words and respond accordingly. Kickaha Ota 01:52, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Good points about the policy and guideline thing. However see the below section. Instead of just reverting and explaining why her talk page had to be unreadable to other editors (this was never referenced or explained), she went on a drama-rampage instead of just reverting it. It had an easy solution, but she had to be a WP:DICK --mboverload@ 01:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• "Don't be a dick" is the fundamental rule of all social spaces.

In some respects, WP:DICK is the most important rule we have. -Will Beback 03:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It may not be official policy and may not be PC but it certainly applies here, IMHO--Who123 18:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Like most of you, I have no personal problem with Ste4k, although I endorse the basis here. The best outcome for Ste4k would be for her to not take any of this as a personal attack. It is not, but she certainly won't move beyond this RfC so long as she thinks it is (and she seems to). I think right editing at Wikipedia is using common sense before applying policy. "Will the content I'm adding help Wikipedia's readers?", "Will the content I'm removing help Wikipedia's readers?", "Why?", "What for?". Don't stop at Policy. Question. Policy means nothing without asking these questions. More accurately, Policy means nothing but furthering an alienating POV without asking these questions, which then means nothing. —Antireconciler ◊ talk 04:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I do have a question. Why does Ste4k act the way she does? Where does and where has Ste4k lived (in general)? The reason I ask this is that I do not understand her behaviour. Is she from a country, a city, or a society where her behaviour is the norm?--Who123 18:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I come from an area where the word "Dick" means "penis". Feel free to look it up. For more information about what country I live in, please see: [3]. About where my behavior is norm, please review the "law of the land", particularly the part about Justice Louis Brandeis: [4]. Thanks. Ste4k 08:53, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Comments on Ste4k's Response

Ste4k doesn't have any claim about "distruptive edits to the talk page". She could have easily reverted and explained why instead of making it into a drama-thon. --mboverload@ 01:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I could have. But at the time in question I was under the impression that you were acting as an administrator. In essence your message to me was, "Look lady, this is the way it's going to be whether you like it or not". And keep in mind how many "revert wars" on talk pages are mentioned on the main page. That you would suggest that I revert an admin's edit, when others are suggesting that I revert warred with people who were clearly told to "leave me alone" is very confusing. You didn't even introduce yourself. Until yesterday, as far as I was concerned, the matter between you and I was a thing of the past, forgiven and forgotten. But your statements throughout this RfC appear to be contradictory in regard to your own self-description as one whom forgives and forgets. Do you honestly believe that the dispute between you and me has anything to do with Articles for Deletion? with religious views on A Course in Miracles? with whether or not a merge was reverted or orphaned? When you are makiing edits on the main page of this RfC, clearly inside of sections that have instructions not to edit, are you making a point about your RfA? And about your RfA, don't you think you might have warned me where you and others were having a conversation? Do you really think that it's fair to blame me for searching around pages trying to find out where that was? How do you think I felt when I saw for the first time, while still under the impression that you were acting as an admin and "laying down the law" that you were not even an admin? About the purpose of this RfC to change my behavior for the better, and in regards to forgive and forget, in my opinion, and after reading your opinions, the effect is exactly the opposite. Had you actually forgiven and forgotten, you would probably have simply declined to comment. But instead of that, your statements are confrontational. I am answering you here directly to your confrontation in that regard. Ignoring your statements is a way of trying to forget. But you have persisted in a need for answers, instead. Ste4k 09:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

These are my reaction's to Ste4k's response.

• As has been noted, this was improperly addressed to "Will".

• In the first paragraph she states that

"...you should actually have tried to resolve a dispute using discussion before writing up an RfC."

My personal experience in trying to resolve disputes with her is 'like trying to talk to a brick wall'. She seems to think that her opinions represent absolute truth. Instead of trying to actually discuss issues she uses every tactic she can come up with to "prove" that she is right. These include:

Illogical or meaningless responses.

Deflection and tangential responses.

Obsessive and sometimes misleading partial quotes of WP Policy, Guidelines and other articles.

Personal attack.

Edit wars

I will supply diffs as evidence for your questions below. Please include diffs for your listed grievances above. Thanks Ste4k 15:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• Later she states "Looking over your comments, in the evidence section about "strongly contested edits", I don't really see any edits of mine that have been strongly contested..."

I have had multiple "strongly contested edits" with Ste4k over the ACIM and EA articles. Because she had a notice on her talk page not to put comments there, these took place at the articles themselves. Even now she has this notice at the top of her talk page: "To discuss articles, please use the appropriate Discussion page of that article."

Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#What_talk_pages_may_be_used_for Ste4k 15:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• Ste4k states: "If you sincerely believe that belittling a person simply because their glasses are as thick as coke bottles (as is pointed out to me quite often) is in the general good spirit of Wikipedia...". Where is this said?

IRL. Ste4k 15:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• "When Andrew Parodi first contacted me, he was already on the verge of leaving." I would like to see evidence for that. It appears Ste4k drove the user off. In regards to Scottperry, I do not know his reason for no longer posting. He did say it was because of his upcoming wedding. I notice that there were constant disputes between Ste4k and Scottperry. She was one by one going through the process of destroying or deleting his multiple ACIM articles as well as other ACIM articles. I suspect that Scottperry stopped posting because of Ste4k. He should be involved in this and this entire RfC. Is there any way to contact him such as email? In regards to myself leaving WP, I have considered leaving WP several times because of Ste4k's behavior, that it seemed to be tolerated on WP, and some even seemed to encourage it. She then points out an example of my "interesting edits" at the ACIM article. I removed a concordance as a reference. A concordance is not a reference source. I removed "A Supplement to A Course in Miracles" as it seemed to not have any relevance to the article and was not acting as a reference. I added a reference that I found on the internet that I thought might be useful. I do not find these to be particularly "interesting edits". She then states that I have made "disparaging remarks" toward her. In her one reference, there is no mention of "Ste4k". It was a general question that was never followed up on.

• Regarding Andrew Parodi: [5] Ste4k 15:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
• Regarding Scottperry: If he said that he was having a wedding, I find no reason to doubt it. Ste4k 15:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• As noted in the RfC, it is suggested by WP that new editors work with what they know. She states that she knew nothing about ACIM until a few weeks ago. Although I prefer to accept what people say on good faith, my discussions with her and her comments make me doubt that good faith (e.g., see ACIM discussion here).

• Ste4k then accuses me of being the one deleting and destroying on WP. I think this is just a weak attempt to deflect her problems onto me. She give two examples.

In the first example I deleted the image (as explained in talk) that there was a copyright question, it added bias to the article for FACIM (see my comments here about FACIM), and added no content to the article. I removed the Foundation for A Course in Miracles reference because the article had been deleted. I deleted the facimoutreach external link as it was just more advertising for FACIM. I deleted "*facim.org/ The FACIM website" as it was a duplicate of the one above. I do find it particularly interesting that it was mainly deletions related to FACIM that Ste4k is concerned about (see ACIM section).

The second example was my second edit after I happened to stop by the ACIM article and was shocked by the dramatic changes of this long standing stable article. (see section on ACIM here). This was reverted and I did not contest the revert. I agreed that my editing of the introduction was poor. I did remove the FACIM material as it added such a huge bias that the article now read like an ad for FACIM. I added factual information about the FACIM/EA lawsuit. One again I find it interesting that Ste4k's main complaints are about the removal of FACIM material (see ACIM section here).

I think you should trust me and I don't think that you want to have this discussion about an article in a behavioral RfC, seriously. Ste4k 15:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

She then accuses multiple users of "collusion". I cannot speak for the other users but in the first example I was simply responding to the request of an Administrator for assistance. This seems to be another attempt to deflect the problems of her behavior away from the user and onto other users.

• "Many of your other remarks are very biased, and opinionated...". I do not find the remarks biased or opinionated. Once again, this is deflection.

• IMHO, the last paragraph is nonsense. This RfC is very much related to this user's behavior in regards to editing article content. Ste4k refuses to "address the section about "A Course in Miracles" at all...".

• To date, Ste4k is the only user endorsing her summary.

• In summary, Ste4k does not appear to have the slightest awareness that she even has a problem with her behavior. Ste4k's summary is simply denial and projection of her problems onto other users. Ste4k's summary itself is a good example of the problem.--Who123 14:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Article disputes and behavioral disputes are two different things. Ste4k 15:09, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Note on authorship

In her response Ste4k repeatedly addresses me directly as the author of this RfC. However four other editors also contributed. The edit history may be found at User:Will Beback/Sandbox. To some extent it is the expression of everyone who has signed on as a certifier. It would be wrong to view this as the perspective of only one person. -Will Beback 01:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Definitely. Her comments on the "Description" section, for example, reference several statements added by me. I agree that this RfC represents the views of all who've endorsed it. --Nscheffey^(T/C) 02:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. Although Will Beback should be thanked for putting much hard work into this, it should be considered to come from all those who endorsed it.--Who123 20:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The only preperatory notice that I was given was in regard to this URL and the index to this Page on another. At the time when I first read the RfC, there was one signature. Will sent me the message. I asked him in what category. He told me. And I read it. He told me a few days ago that he was going to do it. Ste4k 09:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I alerted you on the 19th that an RfC was being drafted (if I may say so, that is an uncommon courtesy)[6], When the RfC was filed I notified you promptly. I believe you've been warned previously that your behavior may lead to an RfC. Going forward, as Kickaha Ota has said, continued disruption may require binding arbitration. The choice is yours. Please take the option of collaborating with the Wikipedia community in a positive spirit. Please do not prove yourselves to be Internet trolls, or other disruptive influences. -Will Beback 09:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I was not contesting the facts, Will, I was supplying them. The question was in regard to why I addressed your name. Ste4k 15:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this RfC formatted appropriately?

The RfC instructions seem to say that the people who certify an RfC must have tried to resolve the same dispute, not multiple disputes involving the same user. This RfC involves a number of distinct grievances, and it's not clear which dispute(s) each certifier is claiming involvement with. Kickaha Ota 02:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It's more about the patern of behaviour and attitude, with multiple large examples of evidence. I think that's what it is anyway. --mboverload@ 02:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Should I annotate my endorsement with reference to my specific interaction? --MichaelZimmer (talk) 02:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that since this is about her overall behavior it is appropriate to cite multiple examples of same. --Nscheffey^(T/C) 02:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the RfC is over Ste4k's behavior across the project. -Will Beback 03:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It is improper for the following reason regarding your explanation as a combination. According to the official policy "Resolving disputes, the best way to resolve a dispute is Avoidance. Collusion of several several people to put together an overwhelming mix of material cannot be described as "avoidance. However, be that as it may...

The First step in resolving a dispute is Discussion. As an overall combined problem across the project, there has been no discussion before until this time. There are even issues stated in this RfC that have never been discussed with me at all.

The Second step in resolving a dispute is Informal Mediation. An RfC is not informal mediation. Have all of you gotten together and attempted to informally mediate my "cross project behavior" before? No.

The Third step is to discuss with Third Parties. As a group of nine people (last time I checked), have all of you gotten together along with myself, and third parties to discuss my cross-project behavior? No.

It has already been stated elsewhere that conducting a survey would have been inappropriate.

The Fourth step is Mediation. Have all of you gotten together before this time in one place and attempted to mediate my cross project behavior? No.

The Fifth step is Requesting an Advocate. I doubt that the nine of you require an advocate in this case, however, I was never advised to even consult one in this regard. I did however consult whom I considered to be a neutral party with a lot of experience, privately, over e-mail.

The Sixth step is Disengage for awhile. There are some among the nine that have done this, however, there is more evidence of preperatory collusion to confront me on a continuing basis then any disengagement whatsoever.

If you want to combine this all into one large dispute, then you should at least treat it like a dispute instead of masquerading it as a "request for comments". In that regard, as a dispute, it is not a single dispute, and it has never been treated like one until now. An RfC is not the appropriate venue. Ste4k 09:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Gender

I finally got a chance to read this. The RfC says that Ste4k is a male, Rross, on the basis of the two names sharing an IP address, Rross's pattern of edits on Usenet, the reverts on Curse and other unspecified evidence. Ste4k claims this is her husband or teenage son. This would seem a reasonable explanation. Is there any evidence to contradict her explanation? If so, it should be provided. The RfC implies that Ste4k's identity as a male is well-established. JChap (talk • contribs) 02:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't say that Ste4k is a male. It states that Rrock is referred to as a male and has a masculine first name, and that Ste4k identifies as female. I don't think the point here is whether Ste4k is being forthright about her gender, but rather her reaction when other editors use a universal male pronoun. --MichaelZimmer (talk) 02:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I take that back. The RFC does make a claim as to Ste4k's gender:"To assume a different gender and then complain when mistaken for the actual gender is drama-queen behavior" Well, IMO the issue still should only be an editor's reaction to a good-faith usage of a universal pronoun. --MichaelZimmer (talk) 03:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

But the statement is still an accusation: either Ste4k is transgendered or is trying to perpetuate a hoax. (Or in the words of the RfC, "it seems unlikely that this is a good faith gender re-assignment. Combined with the edit warring over fraudulent material, it calls the user's good faith into question and appears to be another case of trolling.") This should either be proven or withdrawn. JChap (talk • contribs) 03:14, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

"Rrock" has a male name and uses 72.128.30.205. Ste4k identifies as a female and uses 72.128.30.205. Ste4k claims that Rrock is her husband. Even if that is all true, Ste4k has still perpetrated a fraud on Wikipedia, by edit warring over inappropriate material created by someone using her computer. The time difference between the Ste4k posting the info and Rrock announcing the material was 6 minutes.

As for the identity of Rrock/Ste4k, both people claim to have had 30-year careers in systems administration, both specializing in VMS. All of this adds up to a set of coincidences which exceed my credulity. On the other side, all we have is Ste4k's assertion, with no evidence. If there is any evidence to the contrary I'd be happy to review the situation. -Will Beback 03:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you about the insertion of material. As to identity, you are right that this is quite a string of coincidences (and let me emphasize that I have no way of knowing what happened) but to be fair to Ste4k, each of these is explainable. The diff on the first edit listed the IP address as the editor, not Ste4k, so it is possible that it was Rrock who made that edit. (This of course doesn't excuse/explain her subsequent edit-warring over the fraudulent material.) As for she and Rrock having 30-year careers in the same field: it is common for husband and wife to be about the same age and to work in the same field (although not necessarily in the same subspeciality). She did send me an e-mail a few days ago; her signature and her Road Runner e-mail address each contain the same female name. JChap (talk • contribs) 04:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Normally a user's real life identity would not be a concern, but Ste4k has discussed her gender, her profession, and her ailments, and antagonized other users over them. But the insertion of fraud, whether the source is herself or himself, is the most important issue, and one which she hasn't addressed. -Will Beback 05:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this could be streamlined. I agree that her over-reaction to people referring to her as "he" is evidence of trollish behavior, and that her edit war over Curse was unacceptable. Maybe we should move the over-reaction diffs to "Takes offense easily" under General problems, leave the Curse issue to the Curse section, and remove the gender section. Would this make things more straightforward? --Nscheffey^(T/C) 06:17, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Good suggestion. I've gone ahead and made those changes. The issue is not so much the gender of either Rrock or Ste4k, but whether they are the same person. The bigger issue is still why they would add the self-sourced material to Curse, regardless of whether they are one person or two. -Will Beback 09:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I was unaware of this. Is the question being raised that he/she is a Sockpuppet [[7]]? I have found it odd how he/she is so familiar with WP policies and procedures for a new user.--Who123 22:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think there's any sign that she is using a sock, or is one, herself. The assertion is that she is the same as Rrock, an energetic poster on the Usenet.[8][9][10]. Rrock is the source for the Curse hoax, has long been engaged in flame-wars on the Usenet, and has written strong (if unusual) opinions on religious matters. Ste4k inserted the curse hoax material, has engaged in edit wars, and has claimed to have no opinions at all on ACIM. -Will Beback 23:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

So, there is no other user name on WP with the same IP address? Rrock is not a user here?--Who123 02:34, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Not until now. user:Rrock. -Will Beback 05:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The change does a good job of focussing the RfC on the hoaxing issue without unnecessarily invoking an irrelevant and potentially embarrassing matter. JChap (talk • contribs) 15:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll clear this up real easy for you all. I am a woman, my husband is a man, and neither of us has any comment on any political interpretations of the same. I did vote to delete, rather than redirect a recent neologism, though, if you want to look that up and make some sort of political issue out of it. Ste4k 09:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Broken wikilinks

It appears that a lot of the wikilinks in the "Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute" (and maybe in other sections) that currently start with "http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Ste4k/Prepolicy_Discussion" need to be changed to start with "http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ste4k/Archives_of_first_three_weeks" to reflect the moving/renaming/archiving of Ste4k's user talk page. I've fixed a few links that had to do with my own comments, but won't have time today to fix the others. Kickaha Ota 16:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing that. I think I've fixed the rest. -Will Beback 18:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Commenting in Article

I do not understand where we can and where we cannot place comments. For example, can we comment on Ste4k's response or outside views in the article itself or just here?--Who123 18:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

From what I've seen, the norm is to avoid back-and-forth commentary on the RfC page. That sort of discussion should be kept on this page or on user talk pages. -Will Beback 19:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. Is the "Response" section here for comments on Ste4k's response? If so, could it be retitled to something like: "Comments on Ste4k's Response"?--Who123 20:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that'd be fine. -Will Beback 20:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Response to User:JzG

User:JzG wrote:

• The "Curse" thing is, in my opinion, flogging a dead horse. If we're going to beat up every Wikipedian for silly things they did before they got properly involved in the project then we are going to lose some good editors. Even long-established editors have done some things they rather wish they hadn't in hindsight.

I disagree. A single addition of hoax material is a silly thing. Edit warring over it for three days, attacking other editors for removing it, and filing a mediation request to seeks its inclusion goes way beyond a little prank. Nor is it the distant past. Even so, Ste4k could put it behind her if she'd acknowledge it as a mistake. Instead, she has refused to comment on it here, and just last week complained about how poorly she was treated while trying to push the material intended to further another online dispute. She apparently does not recognize any problem with her behavior in that matter. -Will Beback 20:43, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

User:JzG wrote:

• The "Course in Miracles" business was an example of acting in good faith with a relatively low level of experience.

To me, exhibiting good faith requires being open and honest. After first trying to speedy delete every ACIM-related article, and then nominating every one for AfD she said:

• My interest is not to delete all ACIM related articles.[11]

If deleting the articles was not her intent, then why did she try to get them deleted twice? It is hard to see the good faith in someone who does one thing, then claims not to have done it. -Will Beback 21:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I still wonder if she had/has some hidden agenda or motive for wanting to delete the ACIM articles? Why would a user who supposedly knew nothing about the subject want to do that? It is also interesting that she has largely succeeded in this quest as the primary ACIM article is now destroyed and related articles have been deleted.--Who123 21:31, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm a bit worried about this "it looks likes she's changed" argument, primarily because there is no evidence of it. Furthermore, her discussions in regards to this RfC display many of the original problems. For example, in the discussion on her talk page with Will Beback regarding her edit war to add a hoax to Wikipedia she repeatedly skirts the question, flat out refusing to provide any justification or explanation for her actions. Towards the end she makes a vague threat that due to his "actions today" she will be contacting an "intermediary" and that he will "be advised." This is similar to comments made about me in the Response section of the RfC, namely "because there are other actions pending about that user, I will say no more about it at this time." I have no idea to what she could be referring. She has never explained her refusal to discuss the Greek Statue merge with me, nor her numerous allegations that I "stalked" her. In fact, in her recent conversation with Martinp23 she again asserts that I'm a "stalker", claims that I had "been advised" to stop stalking her, and even suggests that by calling for a third opinion I was using Martin to "game the system"! This all shows no remorse or even comprehension that this type of behavior is hostile and not conducive to progress. Clearly, she is making no effort to change the disputed behavior. --Nscheffey^(T/C) 21:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

She has recently called me a "Pawn" of yours, which I disagreed with her about :P (!). I've been asked to remove my endorsement of the RfC, which I also disagree with, as she wishes to take the RfC to arbitration. I'm not sure whether her comment was a threat, but Im going to AGF. Martinp23 22:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

She continues to call me a stalker. I am completely unsatisfied that any of the issues raised in the RfC have even been addressed, much less corrected. --Nscheffey^(T/C) 01:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

If I'd have had unlimited time I'd have catalogued the stalker charges too. I think that another editor has also been called a stalker by Ste4k. -Will Beback 06:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Ste4k#Outside_view_by_JD_UK

There is a comment that argues with JD_UK's statement in this section on the main page. Ste4k 00:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Statement about 0RR religiously

Between the 20th of June when I was introduced to the concept of WP:0RR, [12] and the 26th of June when I made that statement [13] is there any evidence to the contrary that what I said was untrue? The way this is phrased appears to be painting me as a liar. Ste4k 01:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I stopped counting the edits summarized as "rv" or "revert" during your specified period after I reached eight. [[14][15][16][17] [18] etc. Since that remark you've engaged in several revert wars, in particular over the inclusion of tags, and before it you made 19 reverts in three days. So your comment about faithfully following a policy of never reverting sounds odd. -Will Beback 07:10, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I looked at your examples just now... are you saying that reverting vandalism is revert warring? Have you looked at those example closely? And did you read the conversation that I was having with the mediation guerilla person and investigate what I was talking about regarding my reverts? (i.e. my talk page) Ste4k 10:04, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I haven't necessarily followed all of the steps you recommend. It's enough to see that you reverted before and after your statement of not reverting. Even if there was a several-day window when you didn't revert, your overall behavior calls your strong claim of 0RR into question. Saying one thing while doing another is becoming a theme here. -Will Beback 10:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Your examples are about articles, and my statement was to a mediator about my talk page. Ste4k 15:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Negative Personal Comments "anti-productive" and "trolling"

Regarding this comment of mine:

• "I am very tired of his bickering, and trolling. He is uncooperative and anti-productive"

What is the purpose of this statement being in this RfC? It was made on a talk-page in a small corner of the WikiWorld. If it is considered a "negative personal comment" then what is an RfC considered that has as it's description of dispute: "Unfortunately, her overall impact on Wikipedia so far has not been productive...Much of her participation in this project can be described properly as 'trolling'" ? If my little statement on a talk-page in the corner of the Wikiworld is considered a "Negative Personal Comment", then doesn't that mean that this RfC is a "Negative Personal RfC"? The intent of an RfC is not to be punitive, and certainly not to be "brought solely to harass or subdue an adversary". [19]. -- Ste4k 02:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I was going to refute was you just said, but then I realized none of it made sense. It's text that doesn't mean anything. --mboverload@ 03:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Negative personal comments are best avoided on Wikipedia. Personal attacks are prohibited. A motto at Wikipedia is "comment on the edit, not to editor". One of the few legitimate places to comment on an editor is in an RfC about them. So it was wrong to casually call someone a troll on the talk page of a third person, but if a person is trolling then an RfC is the place to say so. -Will Beback 05:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I doubt seriously that if I were to make such a complaint about a person in an RfC that it would be considered in good faith. I also believe that you should define "trolling" because I don't think that you are referring to the same idea that I am familar with. I am also curious how you could possibly have understood my questions (which you did), at the same time that it is considered to be "text that doesn't mean anything". Ste4k 06:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

From Internet troll:

• [A] troll is someone who comes into an established community such as an online discussion forum, and posts inflammatory, rude, repetitive or offensive messages designed intentionally to annoy and antagonize the existing members or disrupt the flow of discussion, including the personal attack of calling others trolls.

As attestd by many experienced editors, your behavior has been disrupting and antagonizing. Whether or not it is intentional is open to surmise. -Will Beback 06:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. That is not the idea that I understood and my usage is from other cultures. Trolls that I have encountered purposely pit people against one another by disguising themselves and impersonating conversations of various individuals. Other trolls make a patterned habit out of investigating the actions of other individuals to whom they haven't any specific relationship except within their own minds. Other trolls purposely misconstrue what a person says to specifically intensify or enflame a conversation. Some trolls are even a combination of these. The word "trolling" is usually used to signify some sort of long action or series of actions such as phishing or spam or a combination of both. Sending mass quantities of unsolicited e-mail with bogus urls and an impersonation of an actual company falls into this category.

Of specific commonality to both of our definitions, I notice the word "repetitive". Have you examples of my repetitve rude, inflammatory, or offensive messages directed at any particular individual? Did you research your examples well enough to know that several of them actually ended up amicably and resulted in e-mail conversations out of the public view? In that regard have you examples where I intended to be combative for the purpose of combat rather than simply a dispute in coversation over the content of an article? Ste4k 10:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

ACIM

I noted above "I still wonder if she had/has some hidden agenda or motive for wanting to delete the ACIM articles? Why would a user who supposedly knew nothing about the subject want to do that? It is also interesting that she has largely succeeded in this quest as the primary ACIM article is now destroyed and related articles have been deleted." [[20]]

I had last checked the ACIM page about a month ago. At that time it was essentially the same long standing article. When I checked back recently the section on EA had been removed and replaced by a section on FACIM. FACIM and EA have been involved in a multi-million dollar lawsuit that cost FACIM/FIP the loss of their primary copyright, their Service-Mark on "A Course in Miracles", and their Trademark on the acronym "ACIM". This led me to believe that someone associated with FACIM had replaced the EA information with FACIM information.

As I became involved in this I learned about the widespread changes apparently involving many ACIM related articles. The Anderson article (the head of EA) was deleted. Now he/she wishes to delete the EA article.

He/she has been arguing with little logic why people should not use the acronym "ACIM". It is as if FACIM is trying to protect their now void Trademark by bullying.

I just noted this on his/her talk page: "==License tagging for Image:Wapnickk.jpg== Thanks for uploading Image:Wapnickk.jpg. Wikipedia gets hundreds of images uploaded every day, and in order to verify that the images can be legally used on Wikipedia, the source and copyright status must be indicated. Images need to have an image tag applied to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the image. This uniform and easy-to-understand method of indicating the license status allows potential re-users of the images to know what they are allowed to do with the images.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:

• Wikipedia:Image use policy
• Wikipedia:Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. If you need help on selecting a tag to use, or in adding the tag to the image description, feel free to post a message at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 07:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)" [[21]]

Why did she upload an image of Ken Wapnick (the head of FACIM)?

This is all indirect evidence that she is acting as an agent on behalf of FACIM. My initial impressions are strengthened. Is it really true that he/she had not heard of ACIM until a few weeks ago?

--Who123 03:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't read too much into this. Scott Perry uploaded the Wapnick photo originally. Ste4k just edited it to remove a border. -Will Beback 06:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

This is another note from his/her talk page: "Why the push to delete or significantly rewrite all ACIM related articles? Dear Ste4k,
I am the one whose articles you have been trying to delete, many of which you have already had deleted, some of which fortunately were caught before it was too late. You seem to believe that I have some sort of a vested interest in promoting ACIM, and that you must stop me. I don't know. I certainly despaired when I came back from my 4th of July vacation to find so many of the articles that I had researched long hours to create trashed, deleted, or nominated for deletion! Indeed I am an ACIM student, and admittedly I have a pro-ACIM bias. Still, I have done this primarily to further my own study of ACIM, and if anyone else might have benefitted from my work, then I thought, 'so be it'. All of the main article was reviewed by several others familiar with ACIM and it was agreed that it was an accurate summary of the work. Will get back to you later. -Scott P. 16:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)" [[22]]

--Who123 03:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I also note this on his/her talk page: "

The Original Barnstar For improving Allerton High School even though you preferred it's deletion. Inner Earth 23:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this deserved? This is an article on a high school. I question its notability. Is WP the place to have an article on every pre-school, grade school, middle school, high school, and every other school across the world? Why does Ste4k accept this article and so visciously attack ACIM articles for notability?--Who123 04:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)"

--Who123 04:11, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Its just a barnstar, which means little. Get over it. --MichaelZimmer (talk) 15:35, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Ste4k deserves some credit for this (which she's received). Ste4k nominated the article for deletion, which received overwhelming support for "keep". After the AfD was completed Ste4k edited the article to improve it. Now she could have done that without nominating it for AfD, but the result was good. -Will Beback 06:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

This was not a comment about her work on the article. It is a comment regarding notability and how the user's standards appear to be quite different when it comes to ACIM.--Who123 14:53, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you would provide the same answer to Who123 on my talk page where the same comment was injected into conversation tonight and I was afraid to reply in any manner whatsoever. You'll find that comment here. [23] -- Ste4k 06:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Rrock's comments

Mboverload left the following comment on the main RfC page in response to Rrock's sudden appearance and post:

• Wow, this is the stupidest RfC stunt I have ever seen.

According to the RfC procedures, that was an inappropriate place to leave that comment; comments on others' summaries, and replies to those comments, go on the talk page.

That being said, here's my comment on Rrock's comments: I suppose I could say "This is the stupidest RfC stunt I have ever seen", but that would be pretty stupid itself, since I've probably only participated in two or three RfCs since I've been here. But I will say this: it's quite remarkably stupid.

It may be that Rrock is genuine, and is genuinely Ste4k's spouse. In that case, we have a Wikipedia user who responds to complaints about her Wikipedia behavior by retrieving her husband from the real world, someone who apparently has never participated in Wikipedia before, and having him launch into a tirade that neatly encapsulates nearly every negative behavior that Ste4k has been accused of, and culminating in a vague, ludicrous, my-genitalia-is-bigger-than-yours challenge to "come over to my turf". And all of this has apparently been done in the belief that this will help.

Or it may be that Rrock is simply a sockpuppet of Ste4k. In that case, either Ste4k is sincere and believes that this will somehow help her cause, or is insincere and merely taking the trolling to the next level.

It almost doesn't matter now who is right about this conflict. (Personally, I think there are valid criticisms to be made of a number of folks that Ste4k has interacted with, myself included; but even though I hate to say it, the sheer number of conflicts that Ste4k has generated over such a short period of time are leading me towards a conclusion of 'If enough people think you're being an asshole, they may be on to something.') Judging from both Ste4k's initial response and this... thing... from the alleged Rrock, it seems pretty clear that there is not going to be a voluntary change in behavior here, and that a Request for Arbitration is appropriate. Kickaha Ota 05:53, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

He was honest, and trust me, very mild. In a nutshell he raised the concern of my own as I addressed in my response. An RfC is supposed to be about one dispute, as it reads second sentence on the page: "This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes" [24]. And this RfC even states for itself that it is about different disputes. "This RfC includes information on several separate disputes involving this editor" [25]. In my opinion, if there are policies and guidelines then they are intended to be followed. Here in this RfC many are telling me to change my ways, but I can only really see a large consensus in the policies. It's just me. I am a law abiding person. There are many people in the world that do not follow the law. Clearly they disagree with the laws. That doesn't give them the right to violate the laws. It is very confusing for me to try and operate and function in an anarchy. This does not appear to be an anarchy though, so what is it? If anything it is a small operating model of society as a whole that has established for itself, by its own means, rules to follow. I don't believe in a middle ground. Things are either done, or not done. That's me. If you don't like me, then fine. But that is not proper basis for a dispute. I have also been told that just because one person does something wrong that it doesn't justify doing the same. This RfC is wrong, and it has done nothing but alienate me from working on articles. By combining all of these little disputes en masse, most of them settled, it is overwhelming, doesn't address any specific issue, is filled with contradictory complaints, and not helpful in the least. Keep in mind that you may have seen three RfCs, but that is three times more than I have. Thanks. Ste4k 07:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Acting like you have a husband/bringing your "husband" along to challenge me to a "throwdown" boxing match with him...Wow. We should rename this Request for Circus. This is beyond stupid. --mboverload@ 07:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

First, Rrock, has posted material that appears to express religious viewpoints, in particular: [26][27] And, to a lesser extent, [28][29][30][31][32] I can't describe the viewpoints Rrock has expressed, but only note that they appear different from the ACIM concepts.

Second, the "curse" hoax appears to have been the product of another dispute on Rrock's home "turf". This household apparently believes in moving disputes to unrelated websites.

Lastly, this isn't the Usenet. Our aim here is to further a specific project, creating the world's encyclopedia. While we've established many policies, procedures, and guidelines, one of our core policies remains "ignore all rules". The good-faith comments of numerous editors about this user's conduct may not be dismissed simply because one or another rule hasn't been followed. Please listen to the underlying message: Ste4k needs to forego the disruptive behaviors listed in the RfC. Even her supporters agree about that. -Will Beback 09:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

In regards to mboverload comments, I know for a fact that he doesn't even know who you are. Per the statement that I just made. I don't even know who you are. What anything he had to say has to do with boxing is beyond me. For your sake, and in that regard, I am pretty sure that he was saying that if you wanted to be rude and call me dirty names then you should probably look him up on UseNet and discuss the matter there.

Per your comments, Will, about the first set, I won't discuss anything religious about my husband, and you can also talk to him yourself. I am not even going to look at the examples you are providing. I also don't know much about the concepts of Schucman. I am only familiar with the facts as presented by well established secondary sources. Since you have mentioned here that you do know the "ACIM" concepts, then perhaps you would like to expand on how you believe that any of my behavior is particularly biased, or unsuitable for working on those articles. I suggest being specific in that regard.

Per your second concerns I will only caution you to speak about the content and refrain from making presumptions about peoples' families in public. If you want an explanation you might get one from me, but only in private, and only on a friendly basis. I don't believe that you would like it very much if we started talking about your mother here. I think that if you took an objective view of your own actions, that if some other editor wanted to bring up previously undiscussed curiosity about your mother in an RfC that you would probably be as willing to discuss the matter as I am.

About your third set of comments, Will, you have yet to establish that any specific behavior is ongoing or repetitive. I am learning. I change. I make mistakes. I correct them. Your RfC here has impeded that in a significant manner, especially by addressing old amicably resolved issues, issues that have never been discussed before, ignoring the primary steps of discussion about ALL of these matters, which has given you a biased outlook and an unprepared perspective. If you want to know about me, then talk to me. Reading little bits of conversations instead of understanding the relationships is an extremely narrow point of view, and combining it all together makes you look like you are grasping at straws. You are trying to fix a problem that is self correcting, and reversing its progress in a negative direction. Ste4k 10:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

After reading User talk:Rrock's comment it seems to show the same behavior patterns as Ste4k. I also find the writing style odd for a husband coming to his wife's defense. This may be her husband. If so, I find it odd that he has not been a user at WP before now. I also find it odd that he would be so late in coming to his wife's defense. When I went to the user's discussion page I found this: " at least make a page Your name is going to be all red and look like your angry or something. Ste4k 04:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)" [33]. I find this odd. Why would Ste4k not just turn to her husband and suggest this or do it for him if he wanted? I wonder how two people with this personality have been able to remain married for 30 years. The other possibility is that Ste4k and Rrock are the same person. I do not know but this is my guess. In any case, I do not think any of Rrock's votes should be counted.--Who123 12:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but all these oddities aren't really relevant (or helpful) for this discussion. And this isn't a vote, but rather a discussion. Let's try to help resolve this dispute, ok? --MichaelZimmer (talk) 15:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Ste4k's Discussion Page

When I first tried to leave a comment on Ste4k's talk page she had a notice telling people not to post comments there. I now see a boxed comment by Ste4k at the top. I was surprised to see an American flag in the box. Perhaps my memory is poor but I seem to recall Ste4k saying somewhere that she is from another country in Europe and now lives in the UK.

Recently, I left a comment on the RfC to let Ste4k know I had endorsed the RfC. She moved my comment with this comment: "Hello Who123, please try to remember to use a section of your own to speak with me on my talk page. That way I don't need to guess what the general topic pertains to. Thanks. Ste4k 22:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)" [34]. I find this odd. Does Ste4k expect each user now to have their own section on her talk page and only put their comments there? Multiple users are not allowed to comment on the same subject?--Who123 12:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Who123, about your questions regarding my person, please see the 14th Ammendment of the U.S. Constitution. Regarding you questions about my discussion page:

1. As a rule, refrain from editing others' comments without their permission.
2. No insults: Don't write that user such and so is an idiot, or otherwise insult them (even if they are an idiot). Instead, explain what they did wrong, why it is wrong, and how to fix it.
3. Assume good faith: In other words, try to consider the person on the other end of the discussion as a thinking, rational being who is trying to positively contribute to Wikipedia — unless, and only unless, you have firm, solid, and objective proof to the contrary. Merely disagreeing with you is no such proof.
4. If you are having a disagreement or a problem with someone's behavior, please read Wikipedia:Resolving disputes.
5. Talk pages are not for general chatter; please keep discussions on talk pages on the topic of how to improve the associated article.
6. Separate discussion topics, with new topics at the end: Put each new conversation topic or major thread at the end of the talk page, under a different section header (== Subject ==). This uses section headers like the "Subject line" in email messages.
7. Proceed descendingly within topics: Within each topic, chronological order should also be preserved: the further down the contribution to talk, the later in time it was made.
8. Avoid markup: Don't use a lot of Italic text, Bolded text, or CAPITAL LETTERS. These are considered SHOUTING, and contribute to the view that you are RANTING!!!!!
9. Please refrain from using headers to personally address people on talk pages. Headers should be used to facilitate discussion by indicating and limiting topics related to the article.
10. Article talk pages should be used for discussing the articles and how to improve them, not to criticize, pick apart, or vent about the current status of an article.
11. If the community lets you know that they would rather you deleted some or other content from your user space, you should probably do so, at least for now - such content is only permitted with the consent of the community. After you've been here for a while, and written lots of great articles, the community may be more inclined to let you get away with it. Alternatively, you could move the content to another site, and link to it. If you do not cooperate, we will eventually simply remove inappropriate content, either by editing the page (if only part of it is inappropriate), or by redirecting it to your main user page (if it is entirely inappropriate).

Hope this helps. Ste4k 14:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Making things worse

Seems this RfC is just making things worse rather than trying to bring editors together to constructively discuss and guide Ste4k's approach and actions. Its turned into yet another example of editors talking past and around each other, trying to find minutiae to discredit the bases of questions (and the RfC overall), and its not getting anywhere. (Which somewhat reminds me of my only interaction with Ste4k [35]). We need to get by the wikilawyernig and move forward. While I agreed with the Outside view by JD UK that Ste4k had made progress in terms of relating with other editors, the last few days on this RfC bring that into doubt. That said, I also don't think it is all Ste4k's fault - seems many editors refuse to "forgive & forget" and continue to find ways to provoke Ste4k within this RfC. This all is nonsense, and does little to help improve the encyclopedia, which needs to be the primary concern here.

Let's all just start over, perhaps agree to a day or two of "radio silence," start working on separate articles, and just see what happens if we stop being confrontational with each other and try to find ways to constructively help each other become better Wikipedians. </lecture> --MichaelZimmer (talk) 12:54, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• I am sorry but I totally disagree with this. I do not think we should just cover our eyes or brush all of this under the rug. The problem is not the people commenting, it is Ste4k's behavior.--Who123 14:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting we brush things under the rug. The very existence of this RfC is testament to the desire to make these issues public and deal with them collectively. My problem is that the method used by many here remains confrontational rather than working towards either constructive criticism or an outright solution. --MichaelZimmer (talk) 15:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Rewording outside views?

Is it appropriate to re-word outside views after they have already been endorsed by other users? [36]. Concerned that it might change a user's choice to endorse, and they'd have to be watching closely to ensure they're not still endorsing an opinion that has changed. (Not saying JD UK's edit means harm or necessarily causes problems, just wondering general policy). Thanks. --MichaelZimmer (talk) 13:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering that myself, since my response was in reply to the article before [37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44][45] happened. Ste4k 13:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Most of the edits you present were simply formatting or correction of bad links - not substantive changes of content or tone. Feel free to amend your response. My concern has to do substantive with changes to an "outside view" which might affect other users' endorsement of said view. --MichaelZimmer (talk) 14:53, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The changes I made were only minor; I didn't feel they would be that big of a problem, as my English seemed pretty dodgy, especially since I was a bit tired when I first wrote my outside view thing. If people want to revert it to how it was before, I won't have a problem with that. --JD[^{don't talk}|_email] 15:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Well since bad links were evidence I probably got the wrong impression from a lot them, just a guess, but I would have to go back an reread the entire thing to be fair and rewrite an entire different response, or at least different sections. The way the page originally appeared to me, it was some fairly strict rules, Will's comments, very explicit rules about how to respond and where exactly to sign. So I did that. Ste4k 15:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Remedy

In the RfC this is the proposed remedy: "This editor is a very smart person with experience in cyber communities and computer systems. We request that she stop the problematic behaviors listed above and instead contribute Wikipedia in a more positive, less confrontational manner."

• After reading Ste4k's response and the discussion here, I do not agree with this remedy. I think this user's behavior toward others and in editing articles is completely unacceptable. I think Ste4k's talents would be more useful elsewhere. If it is possible, I suggest that Ste4k's editing privileges be permanently removed. Ste4k should be allowed to continue to read WP if this is possible.--Who123 14:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

While a block is one (of many) possible solutions, your inference that a user could also be blocked from even viewing Wikipedia is quite wrong & dangerous. --MichaelZimmer (talk) 15:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

For my benefit

In the RfC it is listed as a "General Problem" that I "Implied that a subject will sue if we include a link." I am completely confused about how this is a General Problem, and would like this addressed by someone other than before. Will, JzG, JChap, or MichaelZimmer would be my preference. Thanks.

Relevent Discussion from my talk page

Per policy: Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reputable source, or it may be removed by any editor. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.

In the future, please provide reputable sources that justify the link that you provided. And please assume good faith. Thank you. Ste4k 08:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Ste4k, chill out. Both of those links obviously belong in the article and your attempt to remove them has been reverted by another editor. You need to seriously calm down, you are not making any friends with your behavior. --Nscheffey^(T/C) 08:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Please review this and reconsider your actions from an objective viewpoint. Thanks. Ste4k 08:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Please, please, for once, make a cogent argument as to why these links should not be in the article. I am familiar with all of the policies you have linked to, and I still see no basis for many of your actions. I'm also not the only one to think so. You need to calm down and be reasonable. --Nscheffey^(T/C) 09:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not uncalm. I don't know why you would think I am. I don't know this man, and I don't dislike him, and I don't like him either way, he is just another human. He was involved in a one-million dollar law-suit. I think that if he knew that you purposely just added a direct link associating his biography (as an author) to a book that he didn't write, and he was sued a million dollars over, that he would probably make it worth some litigation on the part of the encyclopedia if he was so inclined. Don't you? If you have not been reading the ongoing conversation, then please do so since it is at least four or five screens long now. Thanks. Ste4k 09:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Not only have I read the talk page, I've commented on it. The link to ACIM should be on there because he was involved in a one million dollar law suit over it. That makes it relevent to the article. What about that don't you understand? I have yet to see you directly reply to a point I (or any one else) have made. Try it. --Nscheffey^(T/C) 09:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

...Ste4k 14:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC)