Wikipedia:Featured article candidates

For the similar process page for good articles, see Wikipedia:Good article nominations.

Page too long and unwieldy? Try adding nominations viewer to your scripts page.

This star, with one point broken, indicates that an article is a candidate on this page. Here, we determine which articles are to be featured articles (FAs). FAs exemplify Wikipedia's very best work and satisfy the FA criteria. All editors are welcome to review nominations; please see the review FAQ. Before nominating an article, nominators may wish to receive feedback by listing it at Peer review and adding the review to the FAC peer review sidebar. Editors considering their first nomination, and any subsequent nomination before their first FA promotion, are strongly advised to seek the involvement of a mentor, to assist in the preparation and processing of the nomination. Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the featured article candidates (FAC) process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article before nominating it. Nominators are expected to respond positively to constructive criticism and to make efforts to address objections promptly. An article should not be on Featured article candidates and Peer review or Good article nominations at the same time. The FAC coordinators—Ian Rose, Gog the Mild, David Fuchs and FrB.TG—determine the timing of the process for each nomination. For a nomination to be promoted to FA status, consensus must be reached that it meets the criteria. Consensus is built among reviewers and nominators; the coordinators determine whether there is consensus. A nomination will be removed from the list and archived if, in the judgment of the coordinators: actionable objections have not been resolved; consensus for promotion has not been reached; insufficient information has been provided by reviewers to judge whether the criteria have been met; or a nomination is unprepared. It is assumed that all nominations have good qualities; this is why the main thrust of the process is to generate and resolve critical comments in relation to the criteria, and why such resolution is given considerably more weight than declarations of support. Do not use graphics or complex templates on FAC nomination pages. Graphics such as  Done and  Not done slow down the page load time, and complex templates can lead to errors in the FAC archives. For technical reasons, templates that are acceptable are {{collapse top}} and {{collapse bottom}}, used to hide offtopic discussions, and templates such as {{green}} that apply colours to text and are used to highlight examples without altering fonts. Other templates such as {{done}}, {{not done}}, {{tq}}, {{tq2}}, and {{xt}}, may be removed. An editor is normally allowed to be the sole nominator of one article at a time, but two nominations are allowed if the editor is a co-nominator on at least one of them. An editor may ask the approval of the coordinators to add a second sole nomination after the first has gained significant support. If a nomination is archived, the nominator(s) should take adequate time to work on resolving issues before re-nominating. None of the nominators may nominate or co-nominate any article for two weeks unless given leave to do so by a coordinator; if such an article is nominated without asking for leave, a coordinator will decide whether to remove it. A coordinator may exempt from this restriction an archived nomination that attracted no (or minimal) feedback. Nominations in urgent need of review are listed here. To contact the FAC coordinators, please leave a message on the FAC talk page, or use the {{@FAC}} notification template elsewhere. A bot will update the article talk page after the article is promoted or the nomination archived; the delay in bot processing can range from minutes to several days, and the {{FAC}} template should remain on the talk page until the bot updates {{Article history}}. Table of Contents – This page:

Featured content: Featured articles ← Featured lists Featured pictures Featured topics Featured article candidates (FAC): Featured article criteria Featured article log Featured article statistics Featured article review (FAR): Archived FARs Former featured articles Unreviewed featured articles/2020 Today's featured article (TFA): This month's queue About Today's featured article Recent TFAs and statistics Current TFA requests Potential TFA requests TFA oddities Most viewed TFAs Featured articles yet to appear as TFA Script to track TFA recent changes Featured article tools: Mentoring for FAC Nominators of featured articles promoted Recent changes to featured articles Random featured article

Nominating How to nominate an article Nomination procedure Before nominating an article, ensure that it meets all of the FA criteria and that peer reviews are closed and archived. Place {{subst:FAC}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article and save the page. From the FAC template, click on the red "initiate the nomination" link or the blue "leave comments" link. You will see pre-loaded information; leave that text. If you are unsure how to complete a nomination, please post to the FAC talk page for assistance. Below the preloaded title, complete the nomination page, sign with ~~~~, and save the page. Copy this text: {{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/name of nominated article/archiveNumber}} (substituting Number), and edit this page (i.e., the page you are reading at the moment), pasting the template at the top of the list of candidates. Replace "name of ..." with the name of your nomination. This will transclude the nomination into this page. In the event that the title of the nomination page differs from this format, use the page's title instead. Commenting, etc Commenting, supporting and opposing Supporting and opposing To respond to a nomination, click the "Edit" link to the right of the article nomination (not the "Edit this page" link for the whole FAC page). All editors are welcome to review nominations; see the review FAQ for an overview of the review process. To support a nomination, write *'''Support''', followed by your reason(s), which should be based on a full reading of the text. If you have been a significant contributor to the article before its nomination, please indicate this. A reviewer who specializes in certain areas of the FA criteria should indicate whether the support is applicable to all of the criteria. To oppose a nomination, write *'''Object''' or *'''Oppose''', followed by your reason(s). Each objection must provide a specific rationale that can be addressed. If nothing can be done in principle to address the objection, a coordinator may disregard it. References on style and grammar do not always agree; if a contributor cites support for a certain style in a standard reference work or other authoritative source, reviewers should consider accepting it. Reviewers who object are strongly encouraged to return after a few days to check whether their objection has been addressed. To withdraw the objection, strike it out (with <s> ... </s>) rather than removing it. Alternatively, reviewers may transfer lengthy, resolved commentary to the FAC archive talk page, leaving a link in a note on the FAC archive. To provide constructive input on a nomination without specifically supporting or objecting, write *'''Comment''' followed by your advice. For ease of editing, a reviewer who enters lengthy commentary may create a neutral fourth-level subsection, named either ==== Review by EditorX ==== or ==== Comments by EditorX ==== (do not use third-level or higher section headers). Please do not create subsections for short statements of support or opposition—for these a simple *'''Support''',*'''Oppose''', or *'''Comment''' followed by your statement of opinion, is sufficient. Please do not use a semicolon to bold a subheading; this creates accessibility problems. Specifically, a semi-colon creates an HTML description list with a description term list item. As a result, assistive technology is unable to identify the text in question as a heading and thus provide navigation to it, and screen readers will make extra list start/item/end announcements. If a nominator feels that an Oppose has been addressed, they should say so, either after the reviewer's signature, or by interspersing their responses in the list provided by the reviewer. Per talk page guidelines, nominators should not cap, alter, strike, or add graphics to comments from other editors. If a nominator finds that an opposing reviewer is not returning to the nomination page to revisit improvements, this should be noted on the nomination page, with a diff to the reviewer's talk page showing the request to reconsider.

Add new nominations on top, one section per nomination.

Nominations

George Moore (novelist)

Self nomination: another late 19th/early 20th century Irish writer with links to the Celtic Revival. Filiocht 11:13, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

John Vanbrugh

Oustanding collaboration, from two Wikipedian specialists, of a major double career in theater and architecture, even including a couple of illustrations. (It's hard to come by copyleft architectural images.) This is now about the best essay on this major Baroque architect on the internet, deft, accurate, well-written. (I tweaked a minor tweak.) Wetman 08:32, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose for now -- needs formatting -- why the horrible emboldening? in 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue, at the start of every paragraph. yuk! The portrait should go at the top of the page, so we can see immediately what he looked like, and I think there are better ones than the one used http://images.google.com/images?q=John+Vanbrugh&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search Dunc|☺ 10:26, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose. Agree with Dunc. And it's not just the bolding, it's the fact that so many paragraphs begin 'In (year).... Plus, the lead section is far too short. Plus there are too many single-sentence paragraphs and the clever-clever headings (Act I, etc) should not be used for an encyclopaedia article. Filiocht 10:33, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

ROT13

Interesting, well written. Image? -- Fredrik | talk 16:49, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• 'Support - Interesting. Well written. JOHN COLLISON [ Ludraman] 18:09, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Excellent, just needs a picture. Zerbey 18:22, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Why? It doesn't really seem like a picture sort of article. Pcb21| Pete 08:35, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Object. 1) There are no references. 2) The article is a bit short. I can't think of a lot to add, but a better description of the cryptanalysis is needed. There is nothing said about frequency analysis which is needed to break the encoding. 3) As for the image: I don't think one is required here, but adding one would be good. Jeronimo 11:33, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Renormalization

Self-nom. This is a subject about which much more could be written, but perhaps not within the scope of a single encyclopedia article. Though the material is fairly arcane, I've tried to strike a balance between concreteness and clarification for nonspecialists. - Matt McIrvin 15:12, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Object IMHO, a featured article should be easily understandable by someone who knows a little about a subject, but who has some (but not a lot) of willingness to learn. I hope this article can be rewritten to achieve this. (After all, Albert Einstein's General Theory of Relativity was a popular book explaining a complicated technical idea to laymen willing to put a small amount of work into it.)

More specifically, but not exhaustively:

In the lead section: what are 'field effects'?; The article states 'Renormalization arose in quantum electrodynamics as a means of making sense of the infinite results of various calculations and extracting finite answers to properly posed physical questions.' What infinite results, what calculations, what sort of physical questions?

Can't understand the diagrams.

Prehistory: What are point particles? What's a back reaction? What is a particle's field? Can 'inertial mass' be explained here - there are links to 'inertia' and 'mass' but not 'inertial mass'. What's a singularity? Did the 'Attempts to deal with the back-reaction' predict bizarre behaviour that was not observed, or not explain bizarre behaviour that was observed?

Divergences in quantum electrodynamics: What are 'divergent integrals'? What is the importance of 'calculations involving Feynman diagrams'?

A loop divergence: There's no way a layman can understand this! Einstein was kind with his maths (from memory, I think he put much of the details of Lagrangians in appendices a casual reader didn't have to look at. Perhaps it would be better to describe the effect of the formulae here and provide a link to a technical page for those interested (and capable of understanding it).

I'm lost by now, so I've given up reading the article. Personally, I think articles that deal with complex scientific ideas for the layman are as important as they are difficult to write. I hope it is possible to rewrite it so anyone can understand it, but until that happens, I vote object to it being a featured article. jguk 18:08, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough; part of the problem is that we need comprehensible articles explaining all of the rest of physics that provides background for this; I'm afraid that doing it in the renormalization article would turn it into a complete tutorial on calculus, quantum mechanics, particle physics, and classical and quantum field theory. Maybe we're simply not ready to turn something at this level of specialization into a featured article. --Matt McIrvin 18:51, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't think it's impossible to have a featured article out of this subject. I'm sure I've seen elsewhere pages for laymen, with links to more comprehensive pages for those more scientifically minded. Many pages in the non-scientific world, eg cricket are written for everyone, but have lots of links to more specific areas that only cricket-lovers are going to read. I can't see why a scientific subject can't do the same. jguk 19:43, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Weak oppose for now. Too complex. One thing that might help is if the diags were better labelled: at the moment they are very cryptic. When the text is dense, one tends to skip towards the piccies, in which case they need to be fairly self contained. OTOH the stuff about scale-dependence of forces I found very good, thats the closest I've ever come to understanding it -- William M. Connolley 19:32, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC).

Xiao Qian

Article about a principled 20th c. Chinese journalist of WWII in Europe. Appears to be an internet collaboration in typical Wikipedia style. Appears to have been written in Chinese first, then translated and then organized, bit by bit. Ancheta Wis 05:10, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Object: inadequate lead section; traditional characters alone are not appropriate for a mainland-related topic; we should include pinyin for Chinese terms; frankly, poorly written (as noted, it appears to have been written in Chinese first, and Xiao witnessed and underwent the despairing and disheartening reality from his lowborn and destitute life is not brilliant prose). Markalexander100 06:12, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hip hop music

This is mostly a self-nom. Tuf-Kat 23:32, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

• Object. Comprehensive referencing and continuous prose is required in the "Further spread to the US and abroad" heading. Certainly well on the way however. - Aaron Hill 03:07, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Lead intro is too long and should have some of the info incorporated into the main story. Haven't read the rest I'm afraid, so can't comment any further. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:33, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Lead is shortened. No info was lost, I believe. Tuf-Kat 04:42, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Agree with Aaronhill, It's great up until the "Further spread to the US and abroad" section were the article degenerates into a list. The references section probably needs expanding as well, unless this article truly did only use two sites for information :) Zerbey 18:31, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• I don't entirely agree that the bullet points in "further spread" were bad, but I have changed the section into a paragraph form, and in doing so, tweaked the whole "diversification" section in the 1980s. Is this more satisfactory? I used a number of references, but don't have them handy and won't soon, so I will see if I can track down some ISBNs and such on google. Tuf-Kat 22:39, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
  • Some more refs have been added. AFAIK, all concerns have been address, so please re-object if needed. Tuf-Kat 23:30, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I think the section on spread abroad could use some work, but since its such a broad subject, it doesn't actually detract from the article by moving quickly from point to point. —siroχo 00:14, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

Duck and Cover

• This is my second time trying to get this nominated, and I think that I and the others have written everything there is to be written on the subject at this point :-) After I started this page (yes, it's a self-nom) I put it on the FAC, and was turned down unanimously--although suggestions for improvement were provided. So we worked some more on it. I took it to the Collabartion of the Week, but they said they only worked on stubs and couldn't help me. So I've been adding more ever since. -Litefantastic 16:43, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Support. I found this article quite informative and entertaining, especially for us youngsters that weren't around during the cold war. pie4all88 17:57, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Object. 1. The discussion of efficacy is POV and, in fact, largely wrong. While it is currently fashionable to ridicule the advice in this film, much of it is actually sound. To avoid clutter and debate here I have made some comments to that effect on Talk:Duck and Cover 2. Also I think Duck and Cover and Duck and cover probably should be merged; while they are arguably not about exactly the same thing, the content of Duck and cover is almost completely duplicated in Duck and Cover. Securiger 12:30, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Athanasius Kircher

As one of the sources puts it, "just about the coolest guy ever". Self-nom, ignored on Peer review (which I optimistically take as a sign that it's perfect). Markalexander100 08:16, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Web references should be listed with date of retrieval though (see Wikipedia:Cite your sources). Jeronimo 13:10, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Zerbey 16:07, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Securiger 12:31, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. (I have edited this article in the past.) Smerdis of Tlön 16:34, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Suport. (After I made a few tiny changes.) L33tminion 05:34, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. But very. Filiocht 08:37, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

Opeth

Self-nomination. Extensive article on a notable band in the modern metal/death metal scene. I just expanded it, and I can't think of any more information that could be added to it. Nadavspi 05:06, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Overly short, IMO. It's not a bad article, but it's not quite up there with, say, Johnny Cash, yet. Ambi 05:09, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Mahjong

A self-nomination, but I think the content is largely adequate, and changes made during the nomination process will cement its position among Wikipedia's elite articles. kelvSYC 20:31, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Support, though the navigation could be improved; I'm just not sure how. It's a lot of information, after all. --Golbez 21:15, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
• Object. A brief scan reveals several problems, notably a lack of (or just sporadic) information on the Japanese game. I fixed the first section, but don't have time to address the other problems today, or probably for a couple of days. Also, the article is currently 53kb. Exploding Boy 21:48, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
  • The TOC is also overwhelming and should be cut down. →Raul654 07:17, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
  • I have to admit that there is not enough depth in the scoring section (and it may need to be rewritten once again), but can you give us more detail as to what these problems you refer to are? kelvSYC 07:06, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Comment: If the length of the article is a concern, what can us Wikipedians do to improve upon it? We could split the Mahjong article into something like American Mahjong for stuff specifically relating to American mahjong (eg. quints, Charleston, scoring card, etc.) and do similar things for other major variations. kelvSYC 07:06, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • The typical (and more aesteically pleasing, and less time consuming) method is to take one of the longer sections and fork it off into its own article, and leave a 1-2 paragraph summary in its place. →Raul654 07:20, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
    • I've chopped off the scoring section and put that into Scoring in Mahjong. When more details are added, probably each type of scoring can have its own article. However there seems to be an imbalance of information in Mahjong which is currently 27kb. I'm not sure which other section in the main article to chop off. —Goh wz 01:32, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • The article length and TOC are fine now. →Raul654 20:27, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)

Australian electoral system

Quoting Ta bu shi da yu: "Basically, this is an excellent piece of writing. It was written from a highly accomplished author, Adam Carr, and is quite NPOV". It's also relevant considering the recent Australian election, which is nominated for featured status below. - Aaron Hill 08:34, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

• Object for now. The lead section should summarise in broad terms the content of the article and references need to be made explicit. Filiocht 11:03, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
• Object 1) Lead section too short, not a summary. 2) No references. 3) The image has no source/usage info. 4) Use tables instead of typewriter parts. 5) While not necessarily bad, there is a lot of explanation of the voting systems themselves (apart from how they are implemented in Australia). Something needs to be explained (for ease of reading), but I feel this much is not really necessary. 6) Voting is compulsory. Is this enforced? How? 7) A map of the electorates (the Australian_electorates is just a stub) would be useful, since it is not very clear what the electorates are. Jeronimo 07:13, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Australian legislative election, 2004

Basically, this is an excellent piece of writing. It was written from a highly accomplished author, Adam Carr, and is quite NPOV. It also is quite an excellent overview of the 2004 Australian Federal election. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:36, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Support. I'd been planning to nominate this myself. It was just about feature-worthy before the election, and has been just about completely rewritten since. Ambi 11:42, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I'm from Australia and followed the elction fairly closely. It looks good Psychobabble
• Object. Current event status is a serious hinderance to featured article status in my mind. The results won't be final until around 31 October, plus a week or so to resolve lingering POV, pictures, analysis, grammer etc. Excellent candidate for feature article after 7 November. Fifelfoo 23:35, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • See my response to Aaronhill's comment below. Secondly, if there are problems with lingering POV, pictures, analysis and grammar, where are they? For the objection to be actionable, we need some pointers to where these may indeed be. Ambi 09:33, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• No vote, but should not the article be intituled "Australian parliamentary election, 2004" ? -- Emsworth 00:00, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • There's been several suggestions. "Australian federal election, 2004" is the most popular alternative, if it was to change -- Chuq 01:50, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Object. lead section much too long--Jiang 00:49, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Slightly object Conditional support for much the same reason as Fifelfoo. To quote: "Current event status is a serious hinderance to featured article status in my mind". The article is still using the provisional results and the dust has still not yet settled on the election. It, after all, was last Saturday and there are still seats in doubt. Predicting the Senate results for sure is still difficult. I guess this is a "yes, but not just yet". This is not to say that the work is not quality, because it is probably one of the best articles available on the election on the entire internet, but it is just not appropriate for featured status just yet. (I guess this would be a partial self-objection :-D) - Aaron Hill 08:22, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
  • IMO, this shouldn't be a problem. There's very few undecided seats at the moment - it's down to about four in each house, and those are being updated practically daily with the latest details. Ambi 09:33, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • I do not believe the article is POV or that it has problems with pictures or grammar, I do however think that it is necessary to wait until after the dust has settled on this still current event (the makeup of the senate is still far from certain) for it to be featured on the front page. - Aaron Hill 10:57, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
      • Then don't feature it on the main page for at least two weeks, but don't oppose its nomination either. Ambi 11:07, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
        • On that condition, I strongly support the nomination of this article. - Aaron Hill 12:07, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
• Object: the lead section is far too long and detailed, and, again, the actual references used need to be stated explicitly. I am also concerned about the provisional nature of the article as it stands. I know no article is never finished, but this is about an event in progress and so is even less finished than the average FA. Probably nominated two weeks too soon. Filiocht 11:14, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Congo Civil War

• Was the collaboration of the week, and it's really great stuff. -- user:zanimum
• Object. 1) The lead section should give a more extensive summary (given the length of the article). 2) The article writes Mobuto, but links to Mobutu. Which is it? 3) Organisation of the article is messy. The "Origins" section discusses parts of the war, while the "Course of the war" also discusses the war's characteristics. 4) The armed parties section should have more content than just a list of parties, which are mostly red links as well. 5) The pictures need to be better. The map is semi-useful, but a map showing major incidents in the war (or so) would be better. The only photo is from a minor player. Pictures of Mugabe and Kabila are the least I would expect. 6) The article has a lot of generallies, largelies, mostlies, and similar vagueness. Can we get a bit more specific? 7) Also, I'm hesitant to feature an article about an ongoing event. Jeronimo 21:17, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • 1 seems fixed, unless you want longer now. 2 is fixed. I haven't touched the rest. --Golbez 21:43, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
• Object and agree with most of Jeronimo's objections - Xed 12:31, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Object. As a (minor) contributor to the page, I feel it's not ready yet. Filiocht 13:11, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
• Object, the lack of a good map is its greatest flaw. - SimonP 15:34, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
• Object. (1) Article name. There was an earlier Congo Civil War (1960–1965), so Congo Civil War should be a disambiguation page with the articles on the two conflicts somewhere like Congo Civil War (1960) and Congo Civil War (1998). (2) Needs more (and more relevent) pictures. (3) The section "armed parties" needs to give a brief account of the objectives of each party, if any, and the extent to which the various parties are allied into factions. If there estimates of the number of combatants in the various parties, that also needs to be given. (4) Needs maps. Gdr 11:18, 2004 Oct 15 (UTC)
  • The only book entirely devoted to the subject of the current war - [1] - refers to it simply "The Congo War". - Xed 17:09, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • I don't think it should be a disambig -- the Recent Congo Civil War is much more likely to be sought for. A link to the earlier war at the top of the article should be enough. ✏ Sverdrup 10:28, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• While this is a great article (and so much better than it was a month ago) I think it has further to go. At least one contributor is promising major work on it. If we make it featured now we lose the chance to feature it when it's really excellent. Let's wait a while and then renominate it. I guess that's an 'Object'. DJ Clayworth 14:36, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Object. I think Gdr's suggestion about the title is a good idea, and the article does need a good map to illustrate events and the rough extent of the territory held by the various sides. Also a picture of the elder Kabila really should be included, and ideally one of the younger Kabila too. Everyking 15:11, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Shroud of Turin

This was the subject of one of the more lively FAC discussions of September [2]. During the last FAC nomination, the article was completely rewritten, largely by me, with lots of NPOV prodding and editing from User:Eloquence. In the past few weeks User:JDG and others have also edited the article, hopefully rounding it out to be informative and NPOV. I think the "dust has settled" now, so that we just need to list the outstanding objections...

Objections from first nomination [3]:

• An "Oh, what a great mystery this shroud is" POV assertion. But counter-arguments are given for (seemingly) every theory. (It's a unique, strange artifact with no universally agreed-upon explanation, and the article reflects this.)
  • Gone with the rewrite
• An "ongoing dispute as to which language should be used to describe the nature of the shroud." What does this refers to?
  • The dispute seems to have died down, whatever it was originally.

Objections from second nomination

• It needs more information about the research and findings of the scientific investigation of the Shroud, by scientists who aren't actively looking for a way to argue that it's authentic.
  • I think this is addressed. McCrone receives more space than before and it is also indicated that dissenting scientists tend not to have samples to work on.
• Eloquence listed 22 objections. These were all addressed, except for " The shroud is in the public domain - why do we only have a face portion, and a negative rendering instead of both? Surely one of the shroud enthusiasts can provide a high resolution scan and then we can look at specific portions, like the hands, to highlight things like stains so that the reader can get an impression of the so-called 'wounds'."
  • Unfortunately, the photographers consider their photos to be copyrighted and follow this up with court action. There have only been 6 professional photographers in history permitted to photograph the thing without protective glass, etc. We now have reproductions of the original photos, which are the only ones definitely outside of copyright.
• I don't think it's particularly well written and the image may be a copyvio.
  • Completely rewritten. The old image dated from 1933, so could be argued as a copyvio. This one dates from 1898.
• It should be clearly stated that modern methods could date the shroud with fair certainty, but the owners refuse to permit access.
  • This is mentioned.
• I didn't even get to the end. You know it's POV when a section on scientific analysis gives a brief description of the method (one line) followed by a long refutation (three paragraphs). Especially when the refutation involves resurrection-related neutron bombardments. By all means report on people's beliefs but keep the pseudo-scientific babble for your church picnic.
  • Complete rewrite. I think this is answered.
• This is clearly too controversial to be promoted now. The rewrite is much better, but I think it should have some time to settle, maybe a spell on Peer review then re-nominate.
• Agreed (and super work). Wait two weeks, perhaps.
  • It's been three weeks since the failure of the old nomination.

This would be at least a partial self-nomination. Mpolo 13:52, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

• Support. I have one issue though: the history section extensively discussed the Shrout of Edessa, although it is not established that these two are the same. Perhaps this should be mentioned more clearly, notably at the beginning of the history section. Jeronimo 21:55, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I added such a note. (In addition to the section title "Possible History") Mpolo 08:51, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Well written, and NPOV. {Ανάριον} 11:48, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Object for now. Far too much space given over to the Image of Edessa, 'which may or may not be related to the cloth now known as the Shroud of Turin', to quote the article, and which already has a reasonable article of its own. Given that there is no certain relationship, I fail to see how more than a passing reference in this article can be justified. Filiocht 12:59, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC) I still think there may be too much material in this section, but now change my vote to neutral in the light of what has been done. Filiocht 07:27, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
  • I merged most of the history specifically on the Image of Edessa to that article. The portions discussing traditions of a full-length image of Jesus connected with the Image of Edessa are highly germane to the discussion here, however. Is that enough? Mpolo 13:37, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

***I'm afraid I can't agree. The first paragraph of the section discussing the Edessa image seems to me to be enough. By extending the discussion of that other image, the article reads like it is slanted in favour of accepting the identity of the two shrouds. Filiocht 11:25, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC) See above. Filiocht 10:21, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

• • • • I'm not sure what can be done. The paragraphs beyond the first paragraph about the Edessa Image are specifically there to provide what evidence exists that the two cloths might be the same -- that John Damascene spoke of an oblong cloth, that the sermon at the transfer to Constantinople mentioned the image, the testimony of a Crusader of the burial shroud with image there. They don't really have a place in the article on the Image of Edessa, because that article is not concerned with its relationship to the Shroud of Turin. Mpolo 12:06, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC) -- O.K. I've made another attempt. I added a sentence to make it clear that the common view is that the image of Edessa has nothing to do with the Shroud. I then prefaced the following three paragraphs by the statement that this is the evidence presented by shroud supporters for the identification of the cloths. I removed a sentence of history that wasn't particularly germane as well. Mpolo 12:36, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Much more NPOV than before. The lead section is a bit short for an article this size though. - Taxman 17:00, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
  • I expanded the lead, but it should be checked over for POV issues.Mpolo 16:49, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Excellent article. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 18:13, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I nominated this article in September, the improvements made are excellent. Zerbey 11:41, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

History of rugby league

Self nomination. A good general article coivering the history and development of the soprt of rugby league. This article has been on peer review for two weeks and some changes suggested there now incorporated. Grinner 10:54, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

• generally support, but it needs a section on union players moving to league (particularly the poaching of the Welsh), perhaps a bit more on geography and demographics. (I'll read it again). Dunc_Harris|☺ 14:09, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC).
  • Section addedGrinner 15:36, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
• Object. 1) Lead section needs to present a summary of the article (see Wikipedia:Lead section). 2) There are no references, no further reading, no external links. 3) Most of the information needed seems to be in the article, but the organisation is messy. The order of section is mostly chronological, but not entirely, and sections are named for geographic regions. This is confusing and difficult to follow. For example, the "France" section appears to discuss the sport in that country, yet doesn't discuss the French "golden age", which comes forward in "Post-war boom". 4) I feel the World Cup gets comparatively little attention, while I would assume it to be the most important event on the (international) calendar. 5) I would expect a section "before the schism" that briefly summarizes the history of the sport up to that point. This establishes context, while the details can still be read in other articles. Jeronimo 21:38, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Any better? Re. the world cup, sadly I feel it has about the prominence it deserves, unlike other sports the RL version has been sporadic, with a variety of formats, and never really been the pinnacle of international game. Grinner 11:16, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

My issues have been addressed, and I will support, although I have one note: please follow guidelines at Wikipedia:Cite your sources for the references. Jeronimo 07:21, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Object. Needs a copyedit (for example, two consecutive sentences which don't make sense: The most succesful was English wing-cum-full back Jason Robinson, and generally considered that the easier transitions are in the backs. Brad Thorne, a New Zealand forward made a cross-code move, was a rare success, because of the technical forward skills required in union. ) Markalexander100 05:52, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Adventures of Tintin

Partial self-nomination. A remarkable in-depth article on one of Europe's most influential comic series. It was previously listed but then did not get enough support, I hope that now it can. I believe all objections raised then are now adressed. {Ανάριον} 09:54, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Not bad! - Ta bu shi da yu 13:06, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support, I've used the article as a project reference before, and it was essentially the most concise and complete thing I found on the net. -- user:zanimum
• Support, good article. Grinner 15:39, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. zoney ♣ talk 15:54, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• I have my doubts about the fair use of the image of Tintin. Without the explicit autorisation of the heirs of Hergé or the publishing house Casterman, fair use looks problematic. I'm under the impression that they are rather strict in protecting this copright and have done so in the past. This should be cleared up (see talk page of the Adventures of Tintin and talk page of the image). Otherwise, an excellent article worth featuring. JoJan 17:48, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• I think we need to go through the fair use article and see if we can justify the use of this license for this article. Personally, I think it would be OK, I just think the image itself needs have a better page description of the license. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:39, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• I think it qualifies as fair use: its use as such in the French Wikipedia is unquestioned. {Ανάριον} 14:58, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• I'm not so sure about fair use. The image falls under the Belgian law, since it was created in Belgium. The copyright laws of the USA are not the same as on the European continent. I give an example (in French) : [[4]] where the intellectual property of the author is explained, especially (again in French) : "En vertu de la loi sur la propriété intellectuelle, diffuser les oeuvres de tiers constitue un acte d'exploitation qui n'est possible qu'avec l'autorisation de l'auteur. (Dissiminating the works of a third person constitutes an act which is only possible with the autorisation of the author) Une diffusion sans autorisation de l'auteur empêche, en effet, ce dernier de vivre de son travail et méconnaît les investissements des éditeurs et / ou des producteurs. Lors de la diffusion d'une de ses oeuvres, sans autorisation préalable de sa part, l'auteur est susceptible de demander des dommages (the author can ask for damages) et intérêts au titre du préjudice moral et patrimonial subi.". This has caused, among others, the Dutch Wikipedia to ban the use of "fair use". On the other hand, the servers of Wikipedia are situated inside the USA, but then the image originates from the French Wikipedia, which again refers to the English Wikipedia for the use of "fair use". It's a bit complicated, but, without explicit autorisation of the heirs of the author, I'm inclined against "fair use". JoJan 19:09, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • "I'm not so sure about fair use. The image falls under the Belgian law, since it was created in Belgium. " - wrong. Copyright itself is limited by what it is in the originating country (thus, the USA will not protect the copyright on a work longer than the country of origin does). However, that is the *ONLY* area in which origin matters. Everything else is determined by what country the exception is taking place in - for Wikipedia, that's the US because our databse servers are located there (we have squids outside the US). I suggset you read the Copyright FAQ that James and I wrote. →Raul654 05:15, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Fair use claim is tenuous at best, and not likely to be compatible with the GFDL anyway. - Taxman 15:44, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
  • Comment to the above: I have replaced the image with one that is copy-right free: Image:Tt-casterman-01.jpg {Ανάριον} 15:59, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • It claims to be, but on what grounds is that claim made? I can claim anything is copyright free and put it on a webserver. Saying alone does not make it so. - Taxman 14:14, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
    • According to the site mentioned, the pin has copyright Casterman (= the publisher), which is even worse than the "fair use" JoJan 14:37, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • The pin has copyright by Casterman, a photo of it has copyright by the photographer, who released it for free. {Ανάριον} 10:02, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • Reverted to other image: fair use is okay for the Wikipedia (see many other articles). {Ανάριον} 10:06, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Dred Scott v. Sandford

A surprisingly easy read for a potentially dense topic. Seems to do a great job of explaining the issues decided in the case, and how the result changed the country in the run-up the Civil War. A pic would be nice, but not essential, and I doubt there are any available of a relevant subject. (AFAIK, there are no photos of Dred Scott -- maybe one of Justice Taney?) Tuf-Kat 07:31, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

• Support. Ambi 07:47, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support, but I'd like to see an image. There appear to be a number of images of Scott on the Internet, including one that looks very much like a sepia tint photo. Filiocht 13:45, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
  • There's an image now. Shorne 17:34, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • In which case, it was up to me to strike the comment. Filiocht 07:32, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
• Support Sayeth 15:56, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
• Support, now that I have done some minor editing. Shorne 17:34, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Object. I observe two problems, both easily fixable. 1) The opening sentence is way too long and complicated, borderline run-on. 2) Spelling of Sanford/Sandford is inconsistent in the article; please determine which is most appropriate, and fix the article (and if necessary, the title) to reflect this. --Michael Snow 18:37, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Just a note about (2): Isn't this discussed in the introduction? Anyway, I'll leave Tuf-Kat to fix these; I've done enough editing today. Shorne 18:40, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • As explained in the article: While the name of the case is "Scott v. Sandford," the respondent's surname was actually "Sanford." The article seems to use the two spellings consistently, "Sandford" when referring to the name of the case, and "Sanford" otherwise. Paul August 18:52, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

Casualties in the conflict in Iraq

Too often, when this subject arises, one selected group of casualties is mentioned as if they were the only group worthy of note. This article is the only treatment I've seen that gives a comprehensive, neutral review of what is known and what has been reported on this subject. Partial self-nomination. Neow 21:05, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

• Object. I don't feel that the picture of coffins draped with the US flag should get top billing when most of the people killed have been Iraqis. I'll support the nomination if this POV defect is corrected. Shorne 21:18, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • That makes sense; I've swapped the images. Neow 22:09, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
    • Support, now that Shorne's objection has been addressed. 172 06:35, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • Thank you. It's a good article, too. Shorne 08:27, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Object. I have not (yet) read the article, but I have a problem with the title. What conflict in Iraq is the article about? There have been many in the 20th century alone (the Gulf War and the Iran-Iraq war, for starters), so this title is very ambiguous. Jeronimo 12:13, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • What about Casualities in Iraq before and after the 2003 occupation? A bit long... - Ta bu shi da yu 13:11, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • How about simply Casualties in the conflict since 2003 in Iraq? We don't know when it will end, but it's the only major conflict that started there in 2003. Neow 19:59, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
      • OK, I've moved this to Casualties of the conflict in Iraq since 2003. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:29, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • This is still horrible, and still ambiguous. It doesn't name the conflict in question, and suggests that there is also an article Casualties of the conflict in Iraq before 2003. Jeronimo 11:20, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • I hate to say this, but I totally disagree with you (I don't normally) unless you can give us a NPOV name that this conflict is generally known as. On the second point: sorry, but I disagree. I think that this is your own conclusion that you have come to. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:42, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose (for now). This has the potential to be a great featured article. I'm rather afraid that it was largely written from the point of view of an coalition member. I copy edited this to try to resolve this issue, but I think that the whole piece needs some editing. I've edited the lead copy and the first section. Maybe other could do the rest? Also, I agree with Jeronimo — that title has got to change. (title has been changed) - Ta bu shi da yu 13:23, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • I think the problem you saw is better now. Are there any other parts you think need to be changed? Neow 19:59, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
• Object - this has the potential to be an excellent Featured Article and is a good start along that road (it seems pretty NPOV to me), but it is flagged as a {{current}} event - the article can't be comprehensive and accurate when the "conflict" has not even finished. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:44, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • There is no rule that says a featured article can't be about a current event. (For example, Martha Stewart became a featured article the same day she was indicted by a grand jury, and it has undergone regular revision ever since as her story has evolved.) Obviously, we can't predict the future, but I think the article does give an accurate, comprehensive presentation of what is currently known. The numbers will keep changing, and occasionally new reports may surface with new information, but this shouldn't keep the current article from being featured. Aside from the fact that it's about an ongoing event, can you support the nomination? Neow 19:59, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
    • With all due respect, Martha Stewart is not an event. She is a person. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:10, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • I agree with ALoan that the article cannot be comprehensive give that the conflict is still ongoing. The latter (ongoing) is not a valid objection, but comprehensiveness is one of the requirements of a featured article. There majority of the casualties of are Iraqis, but little is known about their number as of now. In fact, the number of resisters killed is not even mentioned. Another indication this article comes to soon is my earlier objection: there's not even a common name for the conflict. As for the article itself, it is mostly a discussion of statistics. The table, for example, is duplicated entirely in prose. I cannot say I find that FA material. Jeronimo 21:29, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • As the Wikimedia Foundation home page says, the goal here is to give "access to the sum of all human knowledge." So it's comprehensive if it covers all that is currently known, not all that might be known some day. By your definition, the Martha Stewart article still wouldn't be considered "comprehensive" today even though it's been featured for over a year. (Would you also disallow featuring biographies of anyone who was still alive, on the principle that such a bio couldn't be "comprehensive" yet?) By the same token, we can't use a common name for the conflict until one exists, but that doesn't mean the knowledge presented in the article isn't a comprehensive account of what is currently known. As for the Overview table being "duplicated" in the prose, well, that's because that's exactly what the table is: an overview of the statistics in the prose. There's a variety of information in the article that isn't in the overview table. If you think something else should be added, please explain what. Neow 22:01, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
      • You are incorrect. As was said during a previous FAC nom where this was an issue, comprehensive means it doesn't omit any critical information (regardless of whether or not that information is known). As such, this nomination does not meet the comprehensive criteria. →Raul654 04:01, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
        • Quoting from the introduction of this page: If nothing can be done to "fix" the source of the objection, the objection may be ignored. This would seem to imply that If it's impossible for this article to be any more comprehensive that it is, then such an objection could be ignored. Paul August 04:38, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
          • (Speaking as the one who wrote that requirement) - That requirement applies to the intrinsic characteristics of an article (For example, if someone nominates penis, and someone else objects that it is a "vandalism magnet" - this is an inactionable objection). On the other hand, it doesn't excuse a lack of comprehensiveness. If the facts about the article aren't known, then you have to wait for them to become known before this article can be called comprehensive. And until it can be called comprehensive, it's not featured article material. →Raul654 06:51, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
    • I don't recall giving a definition of comprehensiveness. That being said, this article certainly isn't comprehensive. This article doesn't have detailed information about the Iraqi casualties. Since this has already happened (it is not something that is to happen in the future), this is information that *should* be in the article. If it isn't, the article isn't comprehensive. Jeronimo 11:15, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • It doesn't give more detailed information about Iraqi casualties because that information is simply not known -- and it may well never be known (though that doesn't matter for deciding whether the article is comprehensive). Does the article omit any information that is currently known? If not, it is comprehensive. If you know something about the Iraqi casualties that isn't in the article, please let us know. If not, your objection is not actionable and so, by the rules at the top of this page, it should be ignored. Neow 19:13, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
      • Perhaps it is difficult or nearly impossible to obtain this information, I agree. Still, I think the article is incomprehensive because of it. Earlier articles have been rejected because of this (e.g. [5]). Jeronimo 07:27, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
        • Well, that's a shame, because that one looks like a fine article too. Neow 18:07, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
        • If the information doesn't exist, then it can't be obtained. And It's not the job of Wikipedia to create new information, that would be original research. The Requirements for a featured article, shouldn't (nor in my opinion do they) include either impossibilities or violations of Wikipedia policies. Paul August 18:43, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

Oppose. Casualties are not a subject unique from a war itself, and from war casualties in general, and the tone of the article drips of POV, since it is evident that the authors want to emphasize the negatives aspects of operations in Iraq. That an ongoing situation is put up as a Featured Article candidate three weeks before the US election is also transparent. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 22:44, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• With all due respect, I suspect that some of these objections are not actionable. The first point is: this is an article about casualties directly resulting from a conflict caused by an occupying force. How exactly do you want us to phrase this to make it sound positive? IMHO the article is talking about one subject matter: people who have died as a direct result of the occupation of Iraq. This is its subject matter, and it should not cover positive results of the Iraq occupation. As to your other objections, please qualify these. In what way does it "drip of POV"? Please provide specific sentences so we can resolve the POV statements. The other objection that is not actionable is the statement "Casualties are not a subject unique from a war itself, and from war casualties in general". So what? Anyone is free to right an article about the casualties of the second world war, or the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. Lastly, the objection that this article was put up three weeks before the US election is also not actionable as there is literally nothing anyone here can do about this. Also, IMHO, I feel that this is just your defensiveness and POV. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:19, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• This casualties page was originally broken out from the page about the war itself because that page was getting too long and the information about casualties can be treated as a separate subject (as this article itself demonstrates). This article links to the articles about the war for anyone who's interested in other aspects. Could you give an example of where the tone "drips of POV" and suggest how you would fix it to be NPOV? (Objections are supposed to give a "specific rationale that can be addressed", you know.) Yes, the subject is inherently negative, but given that, I think the article is quite straightforward and NPOV in what it presents. As for the timing, yes, the election makes this subject particularly relevant right now, but that doesn't mean the article is POV, and the fact is, I submitted this to peer review months ago, and I nominated it as featured now because I thought it had just reached featured quality. Neow 23:30, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
• I agree with the two preceding sets of comments. There's nothing POV about this article, and the claim that it was submitted in connexion with the US election is unsubstantiated and, more to the point, not actionable. This article is well done and deserves recognition. Shorne 17:38, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Comment and question: This seems to me to be a well written article about an important subject. I think the authors have done an excellent job of presenting in a neutral way material fraught with POV peril. I have a question. The article seems to imply that there are two sides to the conflict the "U.S.-coalition" and "the Iraqi side" where does that leave the current Iraqi governmental forces? On which "side" are the deaths of those Iraqis supporting the present government counted?
  • Good question. I'd put the Iraqi puppet state squarely on the side of the US and would list any Iraqis killed in the service of Yankee imperialism as part of the US "coalition". Shorne 18:43, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • "the Iraqi puppet state" comment shows exactly why the article itself instead of the presentation, is POV. I know editors on Wikipedia will slant things to their POV, but there is a limit to how far they should be allowed to go in deciding what issues are relevant. I'm not objecting to the existence of the article itself, but to enshrine it as a "featured article" is inappropriate. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 18:25, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • For your information, I haven't laid a finger on the article. I don't know the editors' opinions on the subject and don't care to know them: the article is well done, and that is all that matters here. Shorne 03:47, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Since there are actually many groups involved in the conflict, the article really shouldn't have referred to two opposing "sides". I've now removed all such references. The article shouldn't try to classify casualties as to what group they belong to. It should only present what existing groups have reported, using the categories specified by those groups. Neow 19:13, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
    • Yes. Thanks. Paul August 21:19, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
• Comment: I have a concern with the section title "Casualties due to poor security after the invasion". This could be construed to be implying that all of the non-combatant violent deaths are entirely "due" to the conflict. This seems problematic to me for two reasons. Obviously some of the violent deaths would have occurred without the conflict, and surely the perpetrators share some of the responsibility. So the most that could be said was the conflict was partially responsible for an increased level (say roughly the increase over the baseline) of such deaths. No? Paul August 05:08, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)

List of North American birds

Along with companion pages List of North American birds: non-passerines and List of North American birds: passerines. OK, like it or not, Wikipedia has LOTS of lists. I guess I want to see if a well formulated, well explained, comprehensive list can be Featured Article. Self-nomination. Dsmdgold 14:24, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

• Never supported a list before, but this seems pretty good! - Ta bu shi da yu 14:27, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Object for now. We need consensus as to if lists can be FAs. Also, the toc is overwhelming and there is no References section. Filiocht 08:00, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)It isn't even a list of North American birds, for Darwin's sake! I think this should become Birds of North America with the links to the lists as a See also section. Then it could be rewritten as a regular article with a lead, toc, references, etc. That could make a really good article. Filiocht 15:15, 2004 Oct 12 (UTC)
  • I don't see an actionable objection here. You can look in the article histories to see how we arrived at this division. A list of 900+ birds was too long for a single page, and this what we came up with. An article on the Birds of North America would be a very different beast. The text of this page only discusses the list and its rationale, i.e what area is covered by the term, and why the list is in this particular order. None of this would be particularly relevant to a Birds of North America article. I am willing to listen to alternative structures for this list, but I do not see suggestions to write a completely different article instead as actionable. Dsmdgold 16:36, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
    • That may be, but then I don't think this is a feature worthy item, even if you take them as a set. The birds of North America, if written very well and comprehensive could be. But as this is, as you have noted, is not comprehensive--an article that "only discusses the list and it's rationale" is not feature worthy. And yes that is entirely actionable. We are faced with an article that is not comprehensive and feature worthy and saying that to get to featured worthy, you would need to write featured worthy material and be comprehensive. In addition the writing in this article is simply not compelling, and of course that in the lists is not by definition. In summation, there is nothing wrong with lists like this, they can be valuable metadata, but are not worthy of featuring in their own right (even with a cover article explaining the list). Object. - Taxman 20:14, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
  • Filiocht is right. It's not a list - it just links to two lists which are therefore different articles. The name is therefore incorrect and, while relevant and a good part of wikipedia, this article isn't feature-worthy imo. Count my objection if someone else can come up with a well-worded reason. violet/riga (t) 21:18, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Would this meet your objections? Dsmdgold 21:53, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
    • Why do features have to consist of one article? Is there a logical reason? Pcb21| Pete 06:39, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• agree with Filiocht. This is featured articles, not featured lists. Dunc_Harris|☺ 16:48, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • No its not, its Wikipedia:Brilliant prose. Erm, what, we changed the name? Yep, and we can do it again. I really think it should be Wikipedia:Features in order to allow us showcase examples of our good work that do not fit into the arbitrary framework of a single article. Pcb21| Pete 19:19, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Lists ARE articles because they are not pictures, the other featured category. Lists make up a sizeable portion of the articles on Wikipedia. (I attempted to count them, but the database gave up after 6000 hits for articles with "List of" in the title.) Lists vary in quality; some are poorly concieved in that they have too many or too few potential members, some are poorly defined, some are incomplete. This list is none of those things. Dsmdgold 21:04, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
• The lists are close to brilliant. Not quite there yet, however, Object for now:
  • The article nominated is the one which should eventually be featured, not the individual lists; though the truly brilliant content would be the lists themselves. I agree with this aspect of the nomination.
  • The text on the nominated page needs work. It's not detailed enough; only lists a one natively diverging species (wrens) and a few imports; doesn't clarify why the AOU's list is used in one place but not in another; not enough reference links, or links to the books mentioned in the article (I started clarifying the article a little to explain what I mean).
    • One note, the Wrens are a family, not a species. However there are a few other families that are limited to the New World. I willl add these. The ABA follows the AOU in taxonomical matters, which is why we are using two different authorities. I have indicated this in the article. I listed the most common introduced species, there are too many to list all of them. Many are established in a very limited area (eg Himalayan Snowcock and Skylark). However I will see what I can do about making this section somewhat more complete.Dsmdgold 15:15, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
  • The text on the list pages is too sparse. Each section needs an introduction, be it a sentence or a paragraph. Don't just list links to other articles; highlight which subarticles are more important and which less, which contested, which of special interest to birders or biologists or farmers, etc. Imagine opening a reference book on birds to the section on Vireos -- there would be a list of specific species, but also an overview.
    • Actually if I turned to a checklist of birds that is actually what I would expect, just a list, perhaps with some indication of frequency, but that would be it, no overview. Since each order and family links to an article discussing that taxon and the article are all at least good (some are very good) I don't see the point in short summary of info that is just a click away.Dsmdgold 15:15, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
  • Images are not well-chosen. We have many fantastic images of birds; only one of them makes it to any of these pages. The image on the nominated page should be a crisper one; perhaps a symbolic one like the bald eagle, perhaps one of our features. The list pages themselves should have a few thumbnails on them; perhaps one representative image for each of the largest sections. +sj+ 07:01, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • You have a point here. I will work on it. Dsmdgold 15:15, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
• Object - I don't feel list should be featured, however as a general article on North American birds, linking to the lists, this can vbe "saved".Grinner 10:54, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

Filiocht and violet/riga seem to be concerned that the nominated page is not actually a list. It now is. When working on this list I split the list since it would be over 32KB. However Wikipedia:Page size says that "(pages) >32KB - should be divided unless it is a list". Since this is a list, I have unsplit (if that is a word) it.

Filiocht, Grinner and Taxman seem to think that I have nominated the Birds of North America and have claimed that the article is incomplete on that basis. I have not nominated that article. I have nominated List of North American birds. I have not noted that the article is not comprehensive. It is comprehensive. The introductory text is just that, a text that introduces the list. It is not a general discussion of the birds of North America. I believe that when someone encounters a list like this, they might ask a couple of questions, such as "What birds are included in this list?" and "Why is it organized in this manner?" This text answers those questions. It would be inappropriate to go off on a discussion of migratory patterns or the role in of the Rocky Mountains in dividing bird species, topics that should be covered in the hypothetical Birds of North America article.

I know exactly what you nominated, and I am objecting to it. I quoted you directly, and a consequence of what you wrote is that the article is not comprehensive about the subject. It is mostly just a list. It has few of the qualities of a great article. In addition the title is wrong/misleading since almost half of North America by species count is not covered in the list. - Taxman 03:04, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

I thought no such thing. I suggested that such an article, if well-written, would make a much better candidate. May I respectfully suggest a less aggressive engagement with objections? Filiocht 11:21, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

Taxman, Dunc_Harris, andGrinner have raised objections based on the fact that this is list. These objections are so fundamental that they cannot be addressed. Dsmdgold 02:36, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

Sure they can be addressed, it just means the article as just a list and no well written, comprehensive coverage (the hallmarks of a featured article) cannot be a featured article. By definition of what it lacks. Don't rail against that, either write a featured quality article or don't worry about it being featured. Why the fuss to get a list featured? Its just metadata. - Taxman 03:04, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

Japanese toilet

Absolutely fascinating article mostly by User:Chris 73. A great example of the sort of thing that Wikipedia collaboration comes up with. Yelyos 02:36, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the positive comments! Guess I must have found a good topic ... but then with me being in Japan you could say that I am sitting at the source. I was planning to polish the article a bit more and then nominate it myself, but Yelyos beat me (and others) to it. Will add a reference section soon. Also, hopefully I can visit the Toilet museum by Inax in Tokyo this weekend, and get some more info. -- Chris 73 Talk 05:36, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Why do Japan and scatology always seem to go hand in hand? Zh 03:04, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Support, with reservations. I almost nominated this myself a couple of days ago. But I want to see the spelling and all cleaned up. Shorne 03:06, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Run through spellchecker. [6] Yelyos 03:26, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Now, if there are no non-Japanese interested in such topic as scatology and Japanese don't keep a good record of everything and keep inventing great products, surely one wouldn't see such articles. What you see is a reflection of what you wants to see. Revth 05:02, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I meant to nominate it myself, but was lazy. --Golbez 05:20, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. (Contributor) -- Chris 73 Talk 05:36, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
• Object barely. There is no explicit references section. There are several external links mentioned, but is it unclear if they are references. In addition, please use the style at Wikipedia:Cite sources. I would also prefer to see written works added, or to a "further reading" section if none were used. Consider this as my support when changes made. Jeronimo 06:42, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Comming soon, as mentioned above. -- Chris 73 Talk 07:00, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

• Added a reference section with about 6 references. Yet, there is little literature about the japanese toilet, and some of the documents are company advertising. I will keep on looking, but I hope for now this is enough for Jeronimo's support -- Chris 73 Talk 12:30, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

• I think we should also have a "further reading while on the toilet". - Ta bu shi da yu 22:41, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Support -- Sundar 04:53, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Another brilliant example of why Wikipedia is such unique treasure. Zerbey 00:37, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. I don't think I've voted here before, but this article makes me want to move to Japan. Dori | Talk 23:42, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. My friend had told me about all this but I'd only half-believed it and never seen photos! eterata 04:37, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• yes! kickass! i am glad someone else shares the same fascination as i. woohoo! Natelipkowitz 04:39, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Attalus I

Sort of a self-nom, since I created the first stub ages ago. Fantastic new work by Paul A.; now feature-worthy. +sj+ 23:32, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Egads, that's a good reference section! Support! [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 23:59, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
• Support; the footnotes are mindboggling. Makes me feel inadequate on my own articles. :) --Golbez 01:16, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Shorne 03:08, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Lead section does not even tell who he is to someone that does not already know what Pergamon is, much less why he is important, notable, or what he did or accomplished. Otherwise seems well researched and written. I certainly prefer inline citations (it makes it so you don't have to move to the bottom of the page and back to check the footnote every time), but that is definitely not something to object over. - Taxman 03:14, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
  • I thought about that, but how different is it from saying Babylon, or Crete, or Rome, or Gaul? It's an extinct kingdom. But I agree, it could be phrased just a tad bit better. --Golbez 03:22, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
  • I've rewritten the lead section and added an "Early life" section Paul August 18:43, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
    • Sorry, but still object on basically the same grounds. Is who his second cousin is really one of the several most important things about him? Why was the fact that he was the first in his dynasty to take the title king important? Also, what was important about the victory over the Gauls? Did it have any impact? A two paragraph lead section summarizing all of the most important things about him would not be out of the question for an article this size. - Taxman 17:07, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
      • No need to be sorry, I think your comments are constructive ;-) His relationship to the previous ruler Eumenes I (he was also his adoptive son - which I've now added) as well as him being the first king of Pergamon, are in my opinion fairly important. Do you think these facts should come later in the article? I've added some content regarding the significance of his victory over the Gauls, do you think this is sufficient? I'm hesitant to add much more content which would essentially duplicate what comes almost immediately below. Paul August 20:08, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
        • I don't know if they need to come later. I just don't know what is important and why and the intro certainly doesn't tell me. It should. Any good intro needs to be a summary of the most important points of the subject with an eye towards why they are important. That neccessarily will duplicate some information. Nothing wrong with that. Having the overview eases the reader in, then the details in the article are more comprehensive. And yes the significance of beating the Gauls is helpful. - Taxman 03:13, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
          • Ok I've considerably expanded the lead section. Is this any better? Paul August 06:09, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
• Object. Good article, needs a few changes to get my support though. 1) As Taxman indicated, the lead section is inadequate. Instead of telling why Attalus I was so important, it adds unimportant facts about who his mother may have been. The lead section should give a short summary of the article, and introduce the subject of the article. See Wikipedia:Lead section. 2) It is hard to understand the article, or even the lead section, without some context. This doesn't take a lot of work or text. E.g. "ruler of Pergamon, a Greek city state in present-day Turkey" makes the article much more readable. Adding such context is necessary for the entire article. 3) I don't think it is necessary to footnote each and every fact mentioned in the article. Any fact coming directly from any of the listed references (Livius, Polibius, etc.) shouldn't need footnoting, since these it is silently assumed that most information in the article comes from these sources. Furthermore, it makes the article look overly "messy" in my opinion. I would say to only footnotes when quoting sources otherwise not used (such as note nr. 7) or when sources are contradictory or exceptional in their remarks. 4) The article, after mentioning his relatives in the opening, immediately starts with Attalus's victory over the Galatian Gauls. I would like to see some more about his early life, or how he became king (he was not the son of his predecessor). I can image there's little information about his childhood, but I would expect something available aobut how he succeeded Eumenes I. If there's nothing known about that either, I think mentioning that is also useful. 5) I don't mind using direct quotations in articles, but the entire "Wife and sons" section consists of quotations. I personally prefer more of Wikipedia's own prose here. (This is not part of my objection.) 6) Another image would be nice as well (Again, not part of my objection). Jeronimo 06:33, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • I've rewritten the lead section and added an "Early life" section Paul August 18:43, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
  • I agree that the text would look cleaner without the footnotes. But I'm opposed to removing most of the footnotes. I think the "messy" look is far outweighed by the value of the information contained in the footnotes. (for example, I can't tell you how many times i've referred to the text mentioned in these footnotes when editing other parts of this as well as several other articles.) Yes, without the footnotes, the reader would still know that the article was based on the sources listed in the "references" section, but they wouldn't know which part of the article was based on which part of which sources. These texts comprise a couple of thousand or so pages, and believe me, it's not particularly easy (for me at least) to find the text upon which a given statement in the article is based. I think there is a strong analogy here with regard to links. I also find links visually distracting, but this is, of course, more than compensated for by the information they provide. I think that one of the reasons, the footnotes look "messy", is because they are so uncommon on Wikipedia (but I don't think they should be), and I think, just as in the case of links, one can, with familiarity, train one's eyes to ignore them. I believe that Wikipedia is weak in the the area of source citation. And I think we should encourage citation of sources (the more detailed the better ;-) rather than discourage it. If the consensus is that a "featured article" shouldn't have so many footnotes, then I'd vote to keep the footnotes and have it be an "unfeatured article" ;-). (Bias alert: I'm the main contributer to this article ;-) Paul August 20:01, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
    • Besides, how do you think I keep my edit count so high? If we do decide to remove all my precious footnotes please let me do it, one-at-a-time ;-) Paul August 20:11, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
  • As to footnotes, I want to say two things. 1) I believe strongly that we should have as much detail in footnoting as possible -- see the recently started fact-checking project for a discussion of why highly granular references are useful. 2) A well-footnoted article is more beautiful to me than its counterpart; like a little stamp of guaranteed information density. There will eventually be better footnote support, allowing users to jump directly to them, to show/hide them, etc. I would hate to see the work that went into these lavish footnotes undone for the sake of temporary aesthetic. +sj+ 06:25, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Re footnotes: I agree (now) that these should not be removed because they look ugly, they should only be removed if they are unnecessary, and I currently think many of these are unnecessary. Personally, I think that we only need footnotes when: 1) directly quoting somebody 2) when listing somebody's opinion on the article's subject 3) when the fact mentioned is disputed by other sources.

For example, it seems to me that "Attalus was the son of Attalus and Antiochis" needs no footnote, just like there is no source for the information on who his brother was. However, the sentence "According to Pausanias "the greatest of his achievements" was the defeat of the Galatian Gauls" should get one.

If there is a problem with the fact that the references works are very large (thousands of pages), mention the page numbers or chapters that were used to narrow it a bit down. Jeronimo 12:25, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree, that "Attalus was the son of Attalus and Antiochis" doesn't need to be footnoted, but I still find it useful to have the footnote. Every statement in this article is a summarization and/or an interpretation of someone else's words. I think it is useful to let the reader know whose words, and where they were written, so they can judge for themselves if the summaries and interpretations are accurate. (The reason I haven't yet included source information for the newly added content is because I wanted that content and this issue to be settled first ;-) by the way you haven't yet said whether the new content is satisfactory. Is it?) Paul August 17:19, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

As for the other objections: they are solved. Jeronimo 07:38, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Support. This is the kind of article I always hope to find when browsing the 'pedia. {Ανάριον} 11:50, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Markalexander100 05:33, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Could Taxman, and Jeronimo please respond as to whether any of there of their objections have been addressed by the recent edits? Or if they haven't been addressed adequately, could they please say what else needs to be done? (Jeronimo: I realize that the footnote are still there, I'm still pondering that question and I'll have more to say on the matter - I don't suppose you've been swayed at all by my last comment have you ;-) Thanks in advance Paul August 15:18, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

• Ok the lead section still needs some work. The sentence "He was the second cousin and the adoptive son of Eumenes I2, whom he succeeded, and was the first of the Attalid dynasty to assume the title of king" seems like it could be removed since the second part is now repeated later in the intro and the first does not seem all that important (and is covered later in the article). 2). There are a number of one sentence paragraph, which need to be expanded or merged with another paragraph. 3.) Overall the article has the typical ancient Greek POV that the Greeks were good and everyone else was bad. An example is "Galatians had posed a problem for Pergamon, indeed for all of Asia Minor." So the conquests of Attalus are glorious, but the other side is a problem for everyone? The section headings of defeat and conquests promote this too. 4.) Overall the writing is very difficult to follow, but because it is mostly due to apparently correct, albeit complicated sentence structure, I will not object only on a basis such as that. Specifically the Early life section though, has too many clauses in each sentence and would not lose anything if it were simplified a bit. - Taxman 16:09, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

• 1) As I said above, his relationship to the previous ruler of Pergamon, and his kingship are of considerable importance. He became important because he was king, and he became king because of his relationship to Eumenes. Encyclopedia Britannica and The Oxford Classical Dictionary seem to agree. Both, include this information in their first two sentences in their articles about him. These facts are part of the "definition" of who he is. They answer the question: "Which Attalus was that?" (there were more than one); answer: "The successor to Eumenes I" or "You know, the first king of Pergamon"; response: "Oh yeah that guy." Yes the relationship to Eumenes is mentioned again in the "Early life" section, but as you said above "Any good intro needs to be a summary of the most important points of the subject with an eye towards why they are important. That neccessarily will duplicate some information" I agree the repetition of the phrase 'the title of "king"' (I've changed this slightly) in the first paragraph and second paragraphs, was not good. But the reason for mentioning his kingship in the second paragraph was to explain how he gained the title, and to answer, in part, your question: "… what was so important about the victory over the Gauls".

Some good points, but the intro still doesn't say who Eumenes is or why he is important to anyone that doesn't already know. But if it is that standard, fine. In general just because two sources do it one way does not mean it can't be improved to say why this guy is important.

But the intro does say who Eumenes I is and why he is important, specifically it says that Attalus I "was the second cousin and the adoptive son of Eumenes I, whom he succeeded,". Thus Eumenes is identified as the predecessor to Attalus as ruler of Pergamon, which is also why he was important. Paul August 16:16, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

• 2) I found two one sentence paragraphs, and have eliminated them.

• 3) According to Livy:

A large body of Gauls, induced either by want of room or desire for plunder … marched …into the country of the Dardani … Fighting with those who opposed their progress and exacting tribute from those who asked for peace …they went further into Asia. Out of the 20,000 men not more than 10,000 were carrying arms, yet so great was the terror they inspired in all the nations west of the Taurus, that those who had no experience of them, as well as those who had come into contact with them, the most remote as well as their next neighbours, all alike submitted to them. They levied tribute on the whole of Asia west of the Taurus, but fixed their own settlement on both sides of the Halys. Such was the terror of their name and the growth of their numbers that at last even the kings of Syria did not dare to refuse the payment of tribute.

The Gauls were a "problem" for Pergamon (as I am sure Pergamon was a problem for the Gauls). This statement is not meant to (nor as far as I can tell does it) indicate that the Pergamene were in any way superior to the Gauls. Would you please offer alternative, less POV wording for "Galatians had posed a problem for Pergamon, indeed for all of Asia Minor." As for the section titles "Defeat of the Gauls" and "Conquests in Seleucid Asia Minor" the first is meant to describe the event whereby Attalus met the Gauls in battle and won, the second is meant to describe the expansion of territory, (not at the expense of the Gauls by the way) in that part of Asia Minor previously controlled by the Seleucid empire. Why are these headings POV? Can you think of better ones? Paul August 01:52, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

Well I couldn't think of much better titles right away or I would have changed them. Conquest connotes ideas like valor and superiority. Defeat is fine, it is more factual. I can't even figure out what is going on and follow who is who in the Conquests section, so I don't know what a better title there is. I think I fixed a bit of the "Gaul problem", by noting what made them a problem closer to the sentence in question. Don't forget Livy was a Roman and Rome had been sacked by the Gauls, so he is hardly unbiased himself. - Taxman 04:35, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the word "conquests" is anymore POV, than "defeat". Webster: Conquest: 1. The act or process of conquering, or acquiring by force; 2. That which is conquered; possession gained by force, physical or moral. In the section heading "Conquests in Seleucid Asia Minor", the word is being used in both the above senses (which I rather like). I don't think that "conquest" connotes a "valorous superiority" any more than it connotes a "brutal subjugation". Rather it's the action itself which is POV laden. In any victory or defeat, there are the victorious and the vanquished and they each will naturally enough have their own POV. Of course the word then inherits the POV, but it inherits both a positive and a negative one. In my opinion, the POVs are symmetric, and thus (more or less) balance out. To rule out the use of such words as "conquest" and "defeat" as too POV, is to impoverish the language.

Having said all that, if nevertheless "conquests" must go, then I propose: "Hostile takeovers in Seleucid Asia Minor". Just kidding ;-) this came to mind as i was considering the phrase "territorial acquisitions" as a possible alternative to "conquests". Seriously though, if you can't abide "conquests" how about "Territorial expansion in Seleucid Asia Minor"? It's less concise, dryer, more boring and contains (unfortunately) only the first meaning of "conquest" given above - but it probably is less POV.

Yes, of course, Livy is biased, but the collective scholarly judgment would be, I think, that he's not so biased as to fabricate that the Gauls were extracting tribute and plundering throughout Cis-Tauric Asia Minor. But anything's possible ;-), (Jeronimo: that's one of the reasons for citing the source of this in the footnotes ;-). I think his bias would extend only so far as to characterize such actions as "brutal" or "barbaric" say. Paul August 17:36, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

Internal combustion engine

Good article about the history and operation of the engine. Vacuum 14:20, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

• Object: Surely you would be able to find some material for "references", "links", and "see also". If the Internal combustion engine technically includes Jet engines and gas turbines, then the article should too, otherwise the article should be moved to a proper location (This objection, however, is not strict can be discussed). The history ends in 1891, and somehow I don't believe that. Many sections could be fleshed out, e.g. Applications to inlcude lawn mowers etc. Also, the article feels in parts like a list with explanations - but I am not sure how to change that, so this is another point that may be discussed. -- Chris 73 Talk 14:30, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
• Object - agree it needs references and perhaps external links. Finding those might help improv the article even more. Also too many one or two sentence paragraphs. Finally could use a more fleshed out discussion of the Carnot limit than being stuck in the 'Other classifications' section. - Taxman 12:46, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

Tropical cyclone

User:Kathy T nominated this on the talk page, but I don't see any mention of it here... I'll renominate it. Timely and well done. --Golbez 01:16, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

Support. Revth 05:09, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• This was already nominated a while ago, and was rejected. Please review the objections at [7], make sure they have been addressed and renominate afterwards. Jeronimo 08:50, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • I assure you, I would have read that had I known it existed. However, there was no link to it in Talk:Tropical cyclone and three links down from this article is a bit long. It should have been mentioned on the Talk page, shouldn't it? Reading now. --Golbez 09:01, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

Quoting on the uncleared objections: 1) The "warm core" objection no longer seems to apply. 2) I've just cleaned up the energy question. 3) It is no longer word-for-word for anything, I don't believe; new specific complaints will have to be made. 4) It definitely gives equal time to storms in other oceans, but it is simple fact that the Atlantic basin is the most researched region. 5) Saffir Simpson has a valid article of its own. 6) I don't understand the bold-face comment, which makes me think it's cleared up. 7) There is no longer a "Hurricanes in the Atlantic" section. 8) I've completely redone the "Notable cyclones" section, it is no longer random. 9) I like the header. :P If the objection is really major, someone else will bring it up this time. If so, I'll see what I can do with it. 10) Finally, the Hurricane Odessa image is uncredited. I'd hate to have to remove that image, but then again ... almost all photos from space of hurricanes are done by the government. Yeah, I know, that doesn't count, but still. I'll search for it.

I don't see any more outstanding objections, so if you have more, please mention them. The previous ones all seem to be addressed. --Golbez 09:17, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

Found and added the source info of the Hurricane Odessa to the image page -- Chris 73 Talk 04:56, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Objections remain. 1) lead section needs to be rewritten as a summary. The second part of it should become a separate section. 2) The "Notable hurricanes" section is still only about the Atlantic (save one in Bangladesh). All facts have "in the Atlantic basin" appended, which suggests there are similar things to be said for the Indian and Pacific Oceans. The Atlantic may be the best researched, but that's no excuse for not adding anything on the other oceans. 3) Web references should be put in the style of. Also, please add some offline references as well, or "further reading" if they were not used as references. (The latter is a request/suggestion, not an requirement). Wikipedia:Cite your sources. Jeronimo 18:16, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

1) I am attempting to deal with this, though I am still enamored with the original large lead. I've split some of the information off into an "introduction" section that is more specific than the lede.

2) The Notable Hurricanes is indeed mostly about the Atlantic - because that is where the most expensive and, excepting the repeated batterings of the subcontinent, the deadliest hurricanes have occured. The list of notable cyclones also lacks certain information on storms in other basins. I will add information on Hurricane Iniki (Hawaii), and the super typhoons that have smacked Japan and Korea around in the past, as soon as I can find it. Furthermore, Gilbert has the caveat "in the Atlantic basin" simply because I have yet to find a typhoon with a lower pressure, but since I have not proven conclusively one has not been recorded, I decided to add the disclaimer. I wanted to be accurate. But you are right, it needs more storms from other basins.

3) I've cited the resource of the newer information I've added (the energy question), but most of this is paraphrased or inspired by NOAA or WMO literature. Furthermore, I have no offline resources to quote, and I won't just browse Amazon for a book that looks appropriate. Fortunately, that's not a requirement. :) But yes, it does need more citations.

Thanks for your comments. I've juggled some sections around, and put in all these changes. Maybe I should take this to Peer Review first. :) --Golbez 23:04, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

Typhoon Tip had the lowest pressure recorded in any tropical cyclone. [8] -- Cyrius|✎ 23:58, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Re point 2), see [9]. There are many storms from outside the Atlantic with 1000s of deaths. All of them "beat" the "deadliest storm on record in the Atlantic"; in 1991 alone there were two tyhpoons with 100,000+ deaths in Bangladesh. Jeronimo 07:12, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Four or five, actually, beat the deadliest in the Atlantic; three are in Bangladesh, two in India. A minor update to the article can illustrate this. --Golbez 07:50, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

My point is that with a simple web search I found several deadlier cyclones (only the post-1900 ones listed). Who tells me there aren't other cyclones more notable than those currently listed. I get the feeling the authors of the article only used references that discuss the Atlantic storms. Jeronimo 07:41, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm confused - It lists the deadlier storms now. It has for some time. What exactly are you saying is missing? I've listed the deadliest, the costliest, the biggest and the smallest - if you have evidence of a deadlier, costlier, bigger or smaller storm, please supply it, but don't consider the possibility of that a reason to indict that section of the article. Perhaps the entire section should be deleted, to make sure everyone gets it perfectly fair? I've also included the most notable storms to hit Hawaii and Australia, the most notable one to hit Bangladesh is obvious, anyone is welcome to add the most notable to hit Japan but most that hit Japan are pretty weak, relatively. It gets hit by a lot, though. Can you please be more specific with your present objection? Are you just saying that because the section previously didn't list these other storms, that it might still be deficient? What what point will it be satisfactory? --Golbez 01:31, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

• Support -- William M. Connolley 18:20, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support (though with this being far removed from my areas of expertise, my support should be weighed with that under consideration)-- 172 06:38, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Comment - I have greatly expanded the Notable Cyclone section. It is now much less Atlantic-centric. --Golbez 15:13, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

• And yet... no mention of Cyclone Tracy! This was one of the most significant natural disasters in Australian history. Would you be able to include it somehow? - Ta bu shi da yu 14:39, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Aye, I removed it when I was changing it to a biggest, baddest, worst storm section, but there's still room for the worst storms to hit specific areas, since I do mention Iniki. I'll readd it. --Golbez 15:24, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

And now that I have, I realize it IS notable in the "biggest, baddest, worst" - Not as the biggest, but as the smallest. :) --Golbez 15:58, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

Ziad Jarrah

My first self-nom. I see "Remember 9/11" stickers all over the place, but very few people know anything about the perpetrators. This is a detailed biography of one of the more interesting of the hijackers. Info culled from the 9/11 report, Congressional testimony, and several conspiracy sites for good measure. I listed this on Peer Review several weeks ago, and no one had any improvements to suggest. What do you think? – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 12:21, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

• Object. Some of the spacing looks funny on Mozilla Firefox (notably at the second image, where there's a giant gap between two paragraphs). No references, either. 219.93.174.110 13:14, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Can anonymous users vote? - Ta bu shi da yu 05:32, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • There are three external links, which are basically references. Is this good enough? (I'll fix the spacing problem presently.)
    • Sorry, that was my vote. Seems I got logged out by accident. The problem with spacing seems to be fixed; as for the references, I will support once they are converted to conform with Wikipedia:Cite sources (a task which shouldn't be too hard). For now, neutral. Support. Johnleemk | Talk 08:18, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • Done. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 14:16, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
• Support, as long as the spacing problem is fixed. (and references) Ambi 13:38, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Support Neutral. I guess that he came from a Muslim family though he went to a Catholic school. This should be stated explicitly, I think. It confused me. Andries 16:23, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Yes, you're right. I'll make that more clear. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 22:06, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
• Object for now. The lead section needs expansion. It should present an overview/summary of the article, but currently misses parts of the article (such as the identity issue). Also, a little more context would be good. See Wikipedia:Lead section. Other than this, support. Jeronimo 18:23, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Okay, this is done. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 18:09, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Surprisingly NPOV for such a controversial figure, excellent work. Zerbey 00:41, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Get Back

Self-nomination. Johnleemk | Talk 18:07, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

*Comment: Is the idea to feature as many Beatles articles as possible? Mike H 02:00, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

• • Not really. It's just that I believe most of my best work has been on Beatles song articles. Johnleemk | Talk 06:47, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • He does good work on Beatles articles. You do good work on soapie articles. What's the problem? Ambi 06:53, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • I wasn't acting angry so there is no need to get defensive. Mike H 07:55, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
  • Contribute what you know or are willing to learn about is our strongest driving policy. ✏ Sverdrup 08:27, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Oh, cripes, forget I said anything. It's so being taken out of context. Mike H 08:34, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
      • I actually agree with what you're saying, but with one slight difference. By all means these songs should be FAs but I don't think that all of them should be front-page articles, just the "special" ones like Yesterday. violet/riga (t) 09:38, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Neutral. Good article, but some of the chronology is a bit jerky. Ambi 06:53, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • How so? I reread the article, and I'm not too sure what you mean. Johnleemk | Talk 11:28, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• I like it. Go on, stop arguing and get it up there. Also, I agree with Mike H. Let's try to feature as many Beatles articles as possible! Hurrah!--Crestville 12:28, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Although most of this thread has been a misunderstanding, it is still annoying to me. We have great work from people like John (Beatles songs) and Emsworth (Peerage, English/British monarchs) yet on the several occasions when I have suggested we create something like "featured series" as a section in "featured articles" (possibly renamed to Wikipedia:Features to placate pendants) it gets knocked back with some pretty ill-thought-out objections. Pcb21| Pete 09:03, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Who's objecting? What are you on about?--Crestville 14:59, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• As always I am troubled by fair use images. Otherwise support. Another great article of course. - Taxman 14:31, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

Pictures

The first list is featured articles that do not have a picture and hence would be problematic to put on the main page. Please add pictures and then move to the second list. GFDL or PD preferred — avoid fair use images where possible (they may not be fair use on the main page).

Tangentially connected pictures may also be suitable for the main page, even if they wouldn't sit well with the article itself. Use your common sense.

Featured articles missing pictures

• Chuck Palahniuk (needs picture of author)
• Donegal fiddle tradition
• Gram Parsons
• Negligence
• Not the Nine O'Clock News

These now have pictures

• Ackermann function - use pic of equation
• Anno Domini - Smerdis of Tlön 19:14, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Application programming interface - use UML lollipop symbol for an interface.
• ASCII (a lame one)
• Computer security - now has one diagram.
• Have I Got News For You (fair use)
• Illegal prime (It now has 2 images.)
  • Neither of which adds anything to the article. In fact, it detracts. GWO 19:45, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Instead of criticizing others' work, perhaps you could provide a better image. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 14:19, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
• Indus Valley Civilization (fair use picture)
• Jazz (still needs free image)
• Jim Henson (still needs free image)
• Korean name - use Image:Hangul_seong.png
• Madonna (singer) (still needs free image)
• Markup language (well, sort-of; suitable for main page? James F. (talk) 15:02, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)) (don't see why not Lupin 00:37, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC))
• Peloponnesian War - use image: Corinth_Temple_of_Apollon.jpg for now, until a better one is found. - Taxman 15:32, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)