Talk:Darts

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measurements

Is there a Wikipedia policy that requires metric equivalents for measurements? Sticking (1.2345 metres) after everything looks very ugly to me, and detracts particularly from a description of the rules of darts, a non-metric game if ever there was one. --Pete

I think it is general courtesy for the global audience. I like having both systems show, as I prefer metric in some situations and imperial in other.

Thryduulf 01:54, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There actually seems to be a policy that all measures should be in both imperial and metric, (at least rough approximations). Check out the guidelines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28dates_and_numbers%29#Style_for_numbers.2C_weights.2C_and_measures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Measurements_Debate

I personally don't see why 99.5% of the world should pander to the needs of a single country that stubbornly refuses to evolve and clings to its ancient roots, but what the heck. — JIP | Talk 10:15, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Amen. And while we're at it we should dump that archaic metric system, with it's "1 10 millionth the distance from equator to pole" (a measurement that they messed up anyway), and base all measurements on light-nanoseconds. And toss that whole base 10 thing, it's so unfactorable--base 12 or base 16 make far more sense. Maybe a light-nanosecond split into 12 smaller units... scot 15:35, 28 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I was expecting this sort of reply. If I had said "I personally don't see why 99.5% of the world won't abandon the strange, incomprehensible, completely alien metric system and start using traditional units like decent, god-fearing Americans", then I would have had full agreement and support. But when I try to present a metric viewpoint, I get a sarcastic and condescending reply. — JIP | Talk 10:01, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, since you were obviously expecting this sort of reply (99.5%, eh?), I was obligated to produce it, no? However, since you object to the chauvinistic reply which you admittedly solicitied...

This article is about darts, a game invented by the English, who at the time still predominantly used English units. The dartboard is NOT 1.73, or even 1.7272... meters from the floor, it IS 5 feet 8 inches, by definition. Recommended max mass for a soft tip dart is defined as 18 grams, so that would use grams as the primary measure--however as that's only a recommendation, not a rule, it's not in the article. An American football field is 100 yards, the hull speed of a Sunfish sailboat is 5 nautical miles per hour, and Noah's ark was 300 cubits long. If you wish to follow these with metric, English, or ancient Chinese units, that is fine, but putting metric units first is just plain wrong, because those things aren't defined in metric units. In the case of darts, football, and Noah's ark, those things are defined with a specific unit, so that unit should take precedence. In the case of the sailboat, nautical miles are the logical unit for use in navigation, since a nautical mile is defined as one minute of arc at the surface of the earth--this makes conversion from angular to distance measure trivial.

And, just because it fits so well, a quote that popped up in a discussion in physics class:

Q: "How many nanometers from the Earth's sun to Alpha Centauri?"

A: "You don't measure the distance to Alpha Centarui in nanometers."

scot 15:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Reorganisation

I've had a bit of a restructure and reorganisation. I think the order of the sections is better than it was previously, but I'm not convinced I've got everything right yet - so go ahead and improve it! Thryduulf 01:54, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

number arangement

We could do with a paragraph on why the numbers are arranged the way they are. I can't remember whether it is a mathematical sequence/formula or not. I'm sure I've heard both that its to do with the 199.5 degree (or whatever it is) that is important in sunflowers, etc; and that they were just manually arranged so high numbers were kept apart. Which is correct? Thryduulf 01:54, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What about Dart boards, where the score gradually gets higher, the closer you get to the center(1,2,3... 10)?

That'd be a target, not a dartboard. Targets are designed to measure accuracy; everyone aims at the center, and if you miss the 10 ring by a little, you are only penalized a little--miss by a lot, get penalized a lot. The dartboard, however, is designed to make you gamble on your aim. To hit a 20 on a dartboard, you risk missing and hitting a 1 or 5. If your aim isn't as good, then a 14 is a safer bet; if you have a 50% chance of being off by one, you get a 9 or 11. Expected return for the 50% chance of miss is 11.5 points for the 20, and 12 for the 14. Also, the highest numbers (20, 19, 18, 17) are near top and bottom of the board, which makes their double and triple spaces wide and short, which is harder to hit than the doubles and triples on the sides spaces, which are narrow but tall. Vertical dispersion about the point of aim is generally greater than horizontal, in my experience, as an error in aim or velocity will effect vertical position, while horizontal is only impacted by aim. When you add the constraints of needing to "double out", and hit exactly 301, etc., there is actually a lot of strategy to darts, and that strategy changes depending on how accurate you are. scot 22:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure that the numbers are arraged that way just to keep large numbers away from each other, so it more a game of skill rather than luck.

Vocabulary

I've heard the word "corking" used with reference to darts. If the cork is the center of the dartboard, then what is "corking"? --LostLeviathan 22:38, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dartboards are made of cork (or at least they used to be, I dunno if they have sythetic stuff or not these days), so its probably a reference to that. My first guess is that it is when your dart bounces back out, but as this is due to hitting the wire it would be rather illogical though. Thryduulf 22:57, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is the very center of the dartboard (the bullseye) that was often made of cork. In many dart games, the decision of who gets to throw first is determined by each player throwing a single dart at the cork, the closest to the center goes first. The term "corking" refers to this practice of shooting for the cork. Now, who gets to shoot at the cork first is often detemined by a coin flip. Interesting, at least to us dart players, is the term that means loser of the last game goes first in the next (without corking). The term for this is "mugs away". [User: Robihood] 14:52, 15 Dec 2005

combinations

I don't think 19! is an accurate representation of how many different boards there are. Since the board is cyclical, the unique combinations are much fewer. Combinatorics covers this, but my math memory is weak as to the specific method. Kellen ^T 18:27, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's actually going to be 20!. Assume we start with 1 and go to 20; you have 20 possibilities for the 1, then you have 19 possibilities for 2, 18 for 3, and so on, which gives you 20 * 19 * 18 ... for 20! possible board layouts. Now given that the board is laid out so that higher numbers tend to be bracketed by lower numbers (to increase the penalty for missing), that does add a loose constraint which would greatly reduce the number of "reasonable" boards, but it's since the constraint is a loose one, it's impossible to put a count on the number of boards so constrained. scot 19:39, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You missed my point. Say we only had 5 numbers. Since the board is round, a board which goes: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 is exactly the same as a board which goes 2, 3, 4, 5, 1. Read about combinatorics. The actual number of unique board layouts is much smaller than 20! Kellen ^T 13:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That depends on how you define "unique". If I hang a board with the 19 up, rather than the 20, is that unique? It could be argued that since the standard board requires the 20 up, then just re-hanging the standard board gets you 20 different combinations--certainly it would impact the player's strategy. I tend to have a greater vertical dispersion, so I favor spaces that are higher than wide; rotating the board 90 degrees would let me shoot at the 20 and 19. Ditto for mirror images of the standard board, which would give you double the ways to hang it, though that would have minimal strategic impact, unless a player has a diagonal dispersion. Since there are 20 things we can arrange, that means that there are 20! unconstrained combinations. Requiring that 20 face up drops that to 19!, since the 20 is no longer a variable and that leaves 19 numbers to place. scot 15:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously it depends upon how you define unique. User:Mdf's edits have made the article wording specific and correct. My comment was in relation to the previous wording which neglected to specify the constraints you bring up, and which ignored rotational symmetry, but asserted that there were 19! or 20! possible boards. Kellen ^T 15:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

BDO vs. PDC

"It is generally accepted that PDC tournaments usually have a higher standard than those by the BDO. To win a PDC tournament, an average per three darts of over 100 is expected, whereas an average in the low 90's could win you a BDO tournament."

While this is sort of true, I think it needs some kind of backup - perhaps some statistics from the respective World Championships? I'm not sured it's phrased very well at the moment. Jono 09:01, 12 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Telescoping shot rule

I'm yanking this:

Hitting the shaft of one of your previous darts immediately makes you the winner of the game, but only if the second dart remains attached. This has never ocurred in an international league before. The WDF (World Darts Federation) has agreed to name this throw after the first person who will throw this in a recorded match.

The WDF rules on scoring (http://www.dartswdf.com/wdf_rules_regs/WDF-TournamentPlayingRules.pdf, section 3) state:

3.02 A dart shall only score if the point remains in or touches the face of the dartboard, within the outer double wire, until after the throw has been completed, and the score has been called and recorded on the scoreboard.

No mention of hitting a prior dart is made (which ain't all that hard, I'm a pretty mediocre player and I've split shafts before). If verification of this claim can be made, then it can be put back in, but it seems rather unlikely to me. scot 19:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I play in the Minuteman Dart League (ADO/WDF Member) in Boston, Massachusetts, and I'm quite familiar with scoring convention. As far as I know and in my experience, convention definitely follows the rulebook on this one. Pulling a "Robin Hood", as we call it, looks pretty cool, but beyond that is worth nothing. Good call. ~ Ross (ElCharismo) 16:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also really hoses your shafts, even with soft tip darts. That's what made me give up on the cheap plastic shafts and go with aluminum; those are much tougher, and even if you do bend them (which I have only done once) they can be bent back. The plastic ones split down to the front of the flight, and break off. scot 16:30, 1 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

sport

(the first to officially recognize darts as a sport - March 25, 2005 ),

Archery is an Olympics sport so is there any suggestions that, as the American put in beach volleyball as an Olympic sport, that darts should be included in the London Olympics? If so would alcohol count as a sport enhancing drug? --Philip Baird Shearer 12:33, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Counting dartboards

The article claimed 20! different dartboards when assessing them for maximizing the penalty for missing a shot. However, there will be a rotational symmetry, so the number of distinct boards is actually 19!. I've made the tweak, and added a citation. mdf 20:21, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arguably the standard layout can yield 20 different boards by rotating, and they will result in slightly different scores for most people. I think the and 20, 19, 18, and 17 are oriented like they are to keep the vertical size of the double and triple spaces small, as most players I've seen (admittedly ameteurs) seem to have a greater vertical than horizontal dispersion. However it is probably obvious enough that each board would have 19 other ways to hang, so I think that can be left unsaid. scot 15:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What's FSN?

"On FSN broadcasts in the United States, the logos for Ladbrokes are pixelized out and digitally obscured, along with any audible references to Ladbrokes, due to American laws and policies against online gambling."

What's FSN? I did a google search and think it might be Fox Sports Net. Could someone confirm this or correct me if i'm wrong. 80.189.229.194 15:29, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]