Re: Standardisation of the copies of the Qur'an I think it is fair to state that the standardisation of the Quran was met with approval across the Muslim World and there was no violence that ensued as should be expected when somebody starts claiming their copy of a religious text is correct. Isnt' that an amazing thing and worth wondernig about? If it is a fact, it should be pointed out to the reader. This is in sharp contrast to other standardisation attempts with other texts. The canonisation of the gospels was followed with a considerable blood letting of fellow Christians, i am told... can this be confirmed? Whether that is correct or not, in the Muslim world you can see the turmoil that Muslims with principles had with other issues... but nobody spoke on this count. Why?

The assasination of the Caliph Uthman of that time only occured, if my history lessons serve me correctly because one party wished for another man to do the job. But nobody ever disputed the copies of the Qur'an except along these party political lines. Those that question as the articles suggests, only have dubious claims to support it.

What do you think?

Mathematical Miracles The number 19 miracle has been written off by almost ALL Muslims. IT IS A HOAX. However, there is another more serious and simple contender that ANYONE CAN CHECK. 1) Add the Chapter number of each Surah and record the total (6555) 2) Add the verses in the Quran (6236) 3) Now have the Surah Number added to its respective verses (so 1+7 in first row 2+286 in 2nd, etc.). Odd answers keep in one column, and Even in others. 4) The odd answers' total will be 6555 and the even will be 6236.

Now i ask anybody to find a single person that has ever existed who can deliberately ensure that their book's words and chapter numbers combine to make the same effect. If they do, can it have the same literary effect as the quran, which is i would ask you to think rationally, a miracle in itself? Who designed the Qur'an? Does this interesting fact merit mentioning?

I only say this for a person who wishes to give the benefit of the doubt and will give a fair hearing to anyone.

--62.252.192.5 19:24, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I notice that a non-Muslim evangelist has clearly been doing some editing. "Analogous to Creation Science", my foot! As I explain, the analogy runs exactly opposite, whether right or wrong.

I notice that 192.70.252.32 removed the following text:

BEGIN MISSING TEXT

Contemporary Scholarship and the Qur'an

This paragraph was written by someone who has a fleeting knowledge of the history of Quran. The information it provides is next to useless.

That's YOUR opinion, Mr. or Ms. Anonymous, but we are given no reason to believe that it has any foundation other than prejudice. Zora 20:10, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Islamic scholars, on the other hand, have long shown that this is not quite the case. Just as higher biblical criticism revolutionzed Judaism and Christianity by calling into question long held assumptions about the origins of the Bible, similar studies have done the same for the Qur'an. Scholars of Islamic religious literature now agree that much of the Qur'an is a modified composite based on the Tanakh [Hebrew Bible] and the New Testament of the Christian Bible. It is recognized that many of the pious claims about its composition and content are not historically supportable.

Islamic history records that Uthman collected all variants of the Qur'an and destroyed those that he did not approve of

There is no evidence that Uthman's choices are necessarily correct.

Hard textual evidence reveals that the text of the Qur'an continued to develop after this time.

The Hadith claims that the Qur'an is defective; the Hadith is the authoritative Muslim understanding of the Qur'an and Islamic law. (It is roughly equivalent to Judaism's oral law in the Mishna and Talmuds.) The Hadiths say that some of the Qur'an was lost, forgotten, or abrogated. It explicitly refers to chapters [suras] in the Qur'an that are no longer extant.

While never discussed in public among religious Muslims, Islamic scholars note that there are a number of variants in modern day versions of the Qur'an.

END MISSING TEXT

and replaced it with claims that the Qur'an has never been changed. It's customary to explain large changes to the text with a note in the "summary" field on the edit form, or preferably a detailed explanation of one's reasoning in the talk page, particularly on subjects that may be controversial. --Brion VIBBER 13:34 Aug 7, 2002 (PDT)

I just noticed this and was about to restore it. I am putting this text back in the main article until some reasonable justification is given for its removal. Danny PS. Maverick beat me to it. :-) Danny

To Anon; When you hit save on the bottom of a page you are promising that the material you saved is not covered by others copyrights. I checked your additions and nearly every sentence was found on one or another website. Example: [1]. The additions also did not conform to our policy of NPOV and deleting text without any explanation is not looked on lightly around here. With that said, your help is much needed and requested to help with these entries; just make sure you follow our policies and guidelines please. --mav

I'm no expert on Islam, but I remember reading that when an edition Qur'an (or Koran or whatever) is published, it is never simply called "the Qur'an." It is always titled "The Holy Qur'an" or "The Glorious Qur'an" or "The Noble Qur'an" or some other defining adjective. If this is a fact, then it deserves to be mentioned in the entry. Could someone verify this? Modemac

It is common, but is not absolutely required. Compare with the Christian 'His Holiness the Pope'. Polite, but not appropriate for a heading in an encyclopedia. Anjouli 12:38, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Err.. It is required.. It is required to differentiate the Qur'an from other Recitations for Muslims. 195.7.55.146

Thanks for adding "The Koran Interpreted". I recall hearing that scholars consider the Koran untranslatable, because the map of the world provided by Arabic is too dissimilar to the map of the world provided by other languages. Hence, the Koran cannot be properly understood in translation.

As a member of the Unification Church, whose living founder speaks mostly in Korean, I am familiar with issues deriving from translation problems. --Ed Poor

The first external link to the "Noble Qu'ran" says that once it's translated, it's no longer the literal word of Allah, but is rather a translation of an interpretation. This is quite logical given the premise that the original text was actually dictated by God to Muhammad word for word. Wesley

I changed the wording to interpretive translation as I think that more correctly says what is desired. I also changed wording to make it more NPOV. I hope I didn't step on anybody's toes.

I would like to see an outline of the Koran that describes in some detain what it contains. Ezra Wax

The mathematical thing is an invention of a modern cult and doesn't reflect the truth

It's just a Bizarre coincidence? Come off it!! I've heard some of the most top ranking Clerics speak of mathematical 'miracles' in the Qur'an. So thats NPOV is it?195.7.55.146

I deleted Non-Muslims hold that Muhammad was merely taking older religious documents and stories and embellishing them.
--Sorry, but if you want to report an opinion you have to identify whose opinion it is. At least refer to a scholar who holds this opinion. "Non-Muslims" is too broad and lazy. It is also wrong, because the vast majority of non-Muslims have no clue and no opinion on this subject. -- zero 14:07, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Since the 1970s, many muslims have started to believe in a third mechnism preservation built into the Qur'an in the form of a mathematical structure. It seems the suras, the verses, the words, the number of certain letters, the number of words from the same root, the number and variety of divine names, and many other elements may all be intricately interwoven with comprehensive mathematical coding based around the geometrical value of the Arabic word "Wahad" (one).
-- I wonder whether this passage was added by someone who believes in this "mathematical structure" or by someone who just happened to read about it. I suspect the latter, because it is not a good report. Actually the supposed features of the word Wahad are but one of dozens of supposed features. The essence of the theory is that there are patterns involving the number 19 which cannot be explained by chance. This was proposed by an American Muslim Rashid Khalifa who wrote several books about it. I'd be surprised if it is believed by more than a tiny fraction of Muslims since Khalifa had to modify the text to get his patterns to work, including the removal of two whole verses. Khalifa also claimed that the patterns proved that he himself was the next great prophet after Abraham and Moses. I propose to replace this passage by a short rewritten paragraph at the end of the article, but will wait for a week or two to see if there are any objections. --zero 07:18, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It is a very minor view considered 'lunatic-fringe' by most Muslims. Probably it does not belong here. Perhaps a separate article? Anjouli 12:33, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

It is quite true that 'Qur'ans' have been found that differ from the orthodox version. On the other hand, there are some very early Qur'ans that are identical. Unfortunatly neither exist in sufficient numbers to prove or refute the claim that the current version is identical with the first Qur'an. There may have been 'heretical' variations over the centuries.

By the way, Islam and Muslim should be capitalised. Anjouli 12:33, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Zeimusu writes:

I find this phrase hard to understand:

this practice simply destroyed variations that had been original to the text

Is it indicating that some believe there were variations in the 7th century texts (or even in the recitals of the Prophet) or does it refer to allegeded variations in later copies? I vote that this paragraph be rewritten to say

As with other ancient texts, no manuscript exists so we cannot know if the current accepted version is identical to that recited by the Prophet, however most Islamic scholars believe that the text has not changed substantially since it was first written down. The practice of destroying copies that deviate from the accepted version, while aimed at preserving the integrity of the text, makes a historical analysis of textural variations difficult or impossible."

(But I write this after a highly non-islamic glass of wine and I'm not really happy with the phrasing)

Zeimusu 15:22, 2004 May 6 (UTC)

Article not neutral

Added note indicating this.

Number of Verses in the Qur'an

Just how many verses are there? 6236 according to [2] and [3]; 6666 according to [4]; 6,616 according to [5]. Does anyone know an authoritative answer? - Mustafaa 18:19, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

From my research, 6236 verses (containing more than seventy-seven thousand words) is the most adequate figure. 6616 is mentioned in the introduction for the Roman Urdu Quran by Hughes, while a closer number of 6666 may have either come from a sect of Shi'a Islam or polemics attempting to discredit the Qur'an. However, it would be more proper to count by words (or even letters?) instead of verses. Usedbook 23:53, 21 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Errr, the only time I've ever seen that '6666' figure is when baptists are trying to suggest that the mark of the Beast is Islams holy book. It's simply a lie.

Qur'an graveyards

The article mentions "Qur'an graveyards" but I can't find a single reference on the Internet. Where can I read more? — Hippietrail 01:54, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There was a very widely discussed article in The Atlantic in 1999 about old Qur'ans found during the renovation of a mosque in Yemen. The article is old enough that it's in The Atlantic Archives, open only to paying subscribers, but someone has posted a copy of the article here: [6]. Zora 04:39, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Article not neutral at all

I am working on so many other pages that I don't really have the time or energy to fight on this one, BUT ... I must say that it reads like an apology for an extremely conservative and parochial position. Qu'ran perfect and complete? -- even though it was compiled by humans? From variant traditions? Even though early Muslim commentators speak of lost verses, dropped verses? Even though verses contradict each other? Even though there are a number of words in the Koran whose meaning is unclear?

Even though I'm not a Muslim, it seems to me that it would be perfectly possible to believe that the Qu'ran is an imperfect human creation and still be a good Muslim. Just so, many Christians believe that the Bible is human creation but remain Christians. To INSIST that all Muslims must reject any historical or textual criticism is certainly a popular position, I'll admit that ... but to insist on it in a Wikipedia article is to turn the article into a sectarian tract.

If there's one thing in Islam that appeals to me, it's Muhammed's denunciation of idolatry. Not as it's trivially enforced today, but as a protest against relying on man-made things and ignoring the God that's "as close as your jugular vein". Isn't the exaggerated reverence for a human-created book idolatry?

Zora 04:30, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This "extremely conservative and parochial position" is at the very root of Islam. To believe the Quran is a human creation would amount to claiming Muhammad was lying or mistaken when he claimed to have received a message from God; to believe that flaws have been introduced by humans would imply the need for further revelation, would seem to contradict several passages in the Quran itself, and would involve rather deep-rooted suspicion of the original followers (the sahaba), since we know for certain the Quranic text has not changed since Uthman's time. You may believe that Muslims should be more open-minded about these possibilities; however, you would be hard-pressed to find Muslims, no matter how "liberal", who would agree. Its interpretation, into which human error can enter quite naturally, is one thing; its authorship, quite another.

The Christianity analogy is flawed in one crucial respect, by the way; much of the Bible explicitly claims to have been written by humans (Luke or Paul, for instance), and when God is said to speak, he is explicitly quoted. In the Quran, God regularly speaks in the first person, addressing the Prophet. - Mustafaa 10:37, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Qu'ran Usage

I think it would be interesting to compare the usage of the Qu'ran with other texts i.e. Christians have multiple Study Bibles. Would one find a counterpart of the Gideon's Association putting copies in hotel rooms in Moslem countries? Do most Moslem families own a personal copy, or do most Moslems go to a Mosque to read it?

Also, Sikh's hold the word of their Guru's in a sacred book which is kept on display and well cared for because the book itself is seen as sacred. Does anyone know if it's similar in Islam? For example, is defacing a copy of the Qu'ran a harsh insult? Would a student of the Qu'ran feel uncomfortable underlining, highlighting or writing in the margins in their copies?

Moreover, I would imagine that there are more copies of the Bible than people in the world, would it be comparable with the Qu'ran, with every home containing multiple copies, every Mosque containing more than enough copies for parishioners, etc.? ----

Could be an interesting topic for expansion. Certainly one would never do anything like "underlining, highlighting or writing in the margins in their copies"; indeed, you aren't supposed to touch the book unless you've performed wudu first. - Mustafaa 10:24, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hafiz

Err, I've never heard of 'Hafiz' being tranlsated as memorizer. I mean, the phrase 'Allah Hafiz', which is very prevailant in Indian cultures as a 'goodbye' greeting (similar to Ma'salaam in Libya or Wa'Salaam in Saudi Arabia) means 'Allah (God) protect [you]'. No?

This is correct. They mean the same: Allah Hafiz is "Allah preserve you", and a memorizer is someone who has preserved the Quran in his head. - Mustafaa 10:22, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

==

As far as I know of, Al-Quran is considered sacred only because it has Allah word in it. If the wording is wipe out, it is just a piece of paper. It is something like if you have a picture of your mother, you do not want to step on it. However, those who want to touch it must perform wudu to clean themselves spiritually; and non-muslim is forbidden to touch it (because they cannot perform wudu and thus forever not spiritually clean. (In order to perform wudu one have to be a muslim, get it..)

Writing on it is like writing on one's mother picture, can be done if it in for some good purpose, i.e. reminder, otherwise, it is the intent that is counted.

Al-Quran was written within the life time of companions of Muhammad. If any variation is introduced, I do not think any one of them worthy a grain of salt would keep quiet. They are all, willing to die for Allah. Whom am I to say what those companions already unanimiously agreed.Yosri 11:37, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Good analogy. - Mustafaa 12:31, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Arabic name

shouldn't the arabic (alphabet) version of the name be "al-qur'an" (if not "al-qur'an al-karim") rather than simply "qur'an" (afaik, without the article the word simply means "lecture", and only the definite article makes it "The Lecture", similar to "a book" vs, "The Bible") dab 09:00, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Wikisource

I uploaded the original text (in Unicode) to Wikisource:Al-Qur’ân al-Karîm. Maybe we can include an additional wikisource link to it. (it should be moved to the unicode-arabic title, though) dab 09:21, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Your posting of the Qur'an is totally wrong. You've added the 'basmala' to the first ayah's and there are no vowels at all. Please remove it and wait for someone who is a Muslims with knowledge to do it for you. A. 15:19, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

as I say on the talk page there, I am aware there are "no vowels at all", and for this reason I will replace it with a transliterated version. It also says that it is not an "authoritative" version, and certainly not for devotional purposes. The basmalas are as I found them on sacred-texts.com. Probably a mechanical error of the conversion (hey, it's a wiki. you can fix it.) dab 17:50, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I put the transliterated version at Wikisource:Al-Qurʾān al-Karīm now. It's still not perfect, but the basmalas are correctly placed now, and there are vowels too. I have waited too long for a convenient online-edition of the Quran. While there has been a plethora of very good bible editions for many years, there are still only very half-hearted gif-collections and "erroneous" unvocalized unicode editions. I am not sure why it's so difficult to put the text online. I imagine it's partly because the arabic script, while very aesthetic and all, is frightfully unpractical for computer use. I still don't have a browser that can display vocalized texts properly. I have taken the very unwieldy transliteration from sacred-texts and converted it to the scientific transliteration in Unicode. Also, putting it on Wikisource has the advantage that any remaining errors can easily be weeded out by knowledgeable muslims as they come across them. The ultimate aim must be to arrive at an reviewed, error-free etext of the quran. dab 09:56, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)