Talk:Wolverine (character)

Archives

• /Archive 1 - November 2003 - June 2005
• /Archive 2 - July 2005 dispute regarding the "Powers and abilities" section
• /Archive 3 - July 2005 - January 2006

Affiliations

You cannot put Black Cat, Spider-Man, and the Punisher under affiliations because Wolverine has teamed up with them, unless that pairing was given a name (i.e. "Heroes For Hire" for Luke Cage and Iron Fist).Solofire6 17:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

"References" vs. "External links"

Hiya. Great article here; lots of good info.

The reason I've changed "External links" back to "References" comes from these verbatim sections of Wikipedia:Cite_sources. (Please note in Item 2 below that the italics are theirs, and not inserted by me. Thanks.)

1)

Complete citations in a "References" section

Complete citations, also called "references," are collected at the end of the article under a ==References== heading. Under this heading, list the comprehensive reference information as a bulleted (*) list, one bullet per reference work.

2)

External links/Further reading

The ==External links== or ==Further reading== section is placed after the references section, and offers books, articles, and links to websites related to the topic that might be of interest to the reader, but which have not been used as sources for the article. Where there is a references section, editors may prefer to call the external links section "further reading," because the references section may also contain external links, and the further reading section may contain items that are not online.

So sources used to write an article go under "References", and other helpful citations go under "External links" if they're linkable and "Further reading" if they're not online. — Tenebrae 04:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Significant issues

Not only the first appearance should be shown, but most sigificant issues and that under a separate headline, or special sidebar (alternate under the other general information in the main sidebar). Like this:

First appearance : (as Wolverine, cameo) Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #180 (1974), (as Wolverine, fully) : Incredible Hulk Vol. 2 #181 (1974), (as Patch) Marvel Comics Presents #72 (1991), (as Death) Astonishin X-Men Vol. 2 #1 (1999)

Significant issues : joined Alpha Flight; Alpha Fligh Special Vol. 2, (1992), first joined X-Men; Giant Size X-Men #1 (1975), first Called "Logan"; X-Men Vol. 1 #103 (1977)...

This information I got from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: X-Men 2004, but it is avalible at quite many places, as well as possible to find out one self (even if a bit hard, but many can give little...) This should accually be done with all comic characters but one has to start somewhere...

Wolverine's other Origin

I am suprise that no one have added any source of information on this origin. I thought I have added it a while back, but it may have been deleted. Anyways, in the reprinted issue of the Incredible Hulk 180, there is an extensive interview by cockrum where he goes in detail of Wolverine's origin and why it have changed. I think the high evolutionary storyline changed when they got new writers, where they didn't like the idea but I don't remember. i decided to buy the comic on ebay (my brother has the comic, but I don't know where he put it at.)--Doomzaber 22:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Healing Factor Description Inconsistancies

On the Healing Factor specific page, it is noted that Wolvie has Metahuman Regenerative powers, defined as allowing him to regrow lost limbs. However, in the description of his powers on this page, it says that he is unable to regrow his lost limbs. I know this has been gone over before, but in my read through the archives I did not see that the issue was ever really put to bed. Maybe I just missed it, I don't know. I know that the depiction of his healing abilities has changed depending on the artists, but where is it explicitly stated that he cannot regrow lost limbs? I know that it is depicted this way in the AoA timeline, but that is not Earth-616, and thus, his powers could be different there.

Given the inconsistancies in the depictions of his healing ability and strength, and how contentious an issue this is for many fans, would it be out of the question to propose a section following the description of his skills and abilities which notes the range of intensities his powers have gone through over time? It could include specific examples from the comics themselves, as well as from other Marvel source materiel. In this way, we could encompass the power variables in one section, allowing a point-counterpoint examination of evidence, while leaving the majority of the article untouched (and thus, not subject to the edit/reversion wars that this article has been subject to in the past). What does everyone else think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.89.171.253 (talk • contribs) .

I think it would be lengthy and overfocusing on minutia. I also think that the difference between "Metahuman regenerative" and "Superhuman regenerative" in the eyes of the Average Reader is... nil. - SoM 23:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I suppose you are correct, and it is already mentioned both in the description of his healing factor and strength that the intensities of those aspects of his powers has changed from writer to writer, so I guess just forget I mentioned it.

It's something that hasn't really been resolved if you think about it. According to the "Superhuman Regenerative" definition, a character is able to regenerate large amounts of tissue but not limbs or organs. It was the mention of organs that has stuck with me. The "Metahuman Regenerative" describes a character being able to regenerate large amounts of tissue and limbs or organs. The definition doesn't make any specification between which types of organs a character could and couldn't regegenerate, it simply states organs. Wolverine is a character that has regenerated completely gouged out eyes on numerous occassions. I'm not going to raise a stink over it or anything, I'm satisfied with the compromises that have been made regarding the description of the character and his healing abilities listed here on Wikipedia. However, given the facts, it would honestly appear that Wolverine's mutant healing factor potentially operates on the "Metahuman Regenerative" level. If I'm not mistaken, the Wolverine villain Cyber was listed at having a healing factor that's listed as "Superhuman Regenerative", and wasn't able to regenerate a gouged out eye he lost.

Actually, if you read the discussion section in the healing factor article you would know the answer to this. In the appendix of the marvel universe it stated that superhuman regenerative did not apply to the regeneration of VITAL organs. An eye is not a VITAL organ. Cyber was listed as Metahuman due to his adamantium skin and regenerative due to his enhanced regenerative healing factor.

The definition as related to a character who's durability is listed under "Superhuman Regenerative" states that a character isn't capable of regenerating organs. It doesn't say vital organs or any other organ, it simply says organs. That's out of the original Marvel Handbooks. Odin's Beard

I agree - it would appear that Wolvie's healing ability is in the "Metahuman Regenerative" range, especially after his adamantium was ripped out and replaced (if you will recall from the comics, removing his adamantium enhanced the effects of his mutations, including his healing abilities - I believe that this was gone over in a discussion somewhere in the archives, in a comment also mentioning the Xavier Protocols). However, as we have both stated, we're satisfied at the general description of things. Lets just let this one rest unless we can come up with a source that definitively says he can regenerate limbs or organs one way or another. I will, however, note that in the description of Deadpool, whose regenerative abilities are derived from Wolverine's, it is said that he can regenerate organs and limbs. I don't know enough about Deadpool to know whether his healing ability has been enhanced beyond Wolverine's or anything, so I guess that this is really just an issue of fanboy confusion on my part. Again, not gonna make a stink about it, just noting something that may be inconsistent, possibly just minutia. And once more, I'm pretty satisfied with things as they are. Its probably pretty obvious that my opinions regarding Wolvie are biased, but I'm trying to remain as NPOV as I can here, and the disclaimer that his abilities' strengths have varied from writer to writer pretty much sums things up.

Look at the last sentence in the first paragraph of metahuman - SoM 03:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

What about it? In the DC Universe, Metahuman is a common term to describe beings with superhuman powers. In the Marvel Universe, Metahuman is a level of durability found within the original Marvel Handbooks. DC coined the term, Marvel used the term in a different way. Odin's Beard

Powers and Abilities question

I skimmed over that section just now and I think there is some information that appears in there that certainly sounds more like someone's opinion instead of what's canon. I'm specifically referring to the statement of Wolverine's sense of smell being slightly more developed than Daredevil's. I may be wrong, but I have never read that in any profile or character biography on Wolverine printed by Marvel Comics at anytime. Now, I have heard something along the lines that his sense of hearing is slightly less developed than Daredevil's, but I'm not certain if that statement is accepted as canonical either or if it's merely someone's opinion. Unless there's information to show that the statement is canon, I believe it should be removed from the article. (Odin's Beard)

Remove it. - SoM 03:51, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

During one of Marvel's Big Damn Crossover Events, a fake Reed Richards tried to talk a gathering of heroes into helping him out. Wolverine smelled him for a fake, DD didn't, and DD's thought balloon (for this was in the days where all major exposition took place in thought balloons) reflected that Wolverine's sense of smell must be even better than his own.

• http://img472.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wol22dm.jpg
• http://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wolb21hp.jpg

Other Media section factually inaccurate-

I think that this: "Wolverine, as the most prominent member of the X-Men, has been the only X-Man to have been included in every adaptation of the X-Men franchise into non-comics media (including film, television, computer and video games) and is the only X-Man to have starred in his own video game." needs to be fixed. Wolverine has *not* appeared in every adaptation of the X-Men franchise. Wolverine did not appear in 1960s Marvel Super Heroes tv series, which featured the original X-men cast, nor did he appear in the Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends episode "The X-Men Adventure". I'll have to look, but I'm fairly certain that Cyclops has appeared in every or nearly every adaptation of the X-Men franchise that Wolverine has, even making cameo appearences in the Wolverine video-games. Finally, Wolverine did not appear in the television show "Generation X" which is a part of the X-Men franchise.

"(disputed! read below)"

"Dispute Update: Wolverine is not actually a mutant a previously thought, but instead what human beings would have become had the Celestials not tampered with early mankind (see Paradise X #4),such is Sabertooth, and other characters like Wendigo. So the powers which were deemed "mutant powers" are in actuality the natural abilities that all humans would possess if it weren't for the weakening of the human race by the Celestials." - GIPU 71.32.81.229 09:28, 15 April

Paradise X was simply another alternate reality and isn't part of the mainstream Marvel Universe. The aspect involving Wolverine not actually being a mutant isn't accepted as canon. Odin's Beard

Correct - none of the Earth/Universe/Paradise X stuff has any bearing on MU continuity - SoM 00:45, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Yo. Ace here. Seems there's gonna be a bit of a problem tomorrow with regard to mutant powers. Just thought I'd add this now. Ace Class Shadow 09:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

• http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5632/enhanced6tg.jpg
• http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/8801/enhanced25tg.jpg

Costume gallery

Is it really neccessary to have a costume gallery for the character? I say it should be deleted. Besides the article is getting a little to big. --Gonzalo84 22:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't really see any problem with a costume gallery. It just notes the different looks he's had over the years. Besides, the article isn't nearly as big as the Spider-Man or Hulk articles. It seems that a new section for them pop up almost daily. Odin's Beard

• Given the number of drastic costume changes Wolverine's had over the years, I think it's a good idea to include it. Willbyr 19:59, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

BUB

Logan always says bub,is it a canadian or american word?

It's a relatively common (even borderline stereotype) Canadian word. 24.177.49.54 21:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

NUKE

The man that the government is sending in to stop Wolverine is called Nuke, for anybody that doesn't know. Nuke is a pretty obscure character and was an opponent for Dardevil and Captain America. I'd say that his overall appearances total less than 12. For anyone unfamiliar with him, this link should tell you pretty much all there is to know about him. http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/darenuke.htm Also, this is a great site for those curious about some of the more obscure characters that have appeared in the Marvel Universe. Odin's Beard

Relationships

Shouldn't there be a small section on Wolverine's relations with other characters? Such as Jean, Jubilee and(from what I know, in the movies) Rogue?

Don't forget his clone, I don't if it's true, I've only heard about it.

You mean X-23? Ace Class Shadow 19:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

another co-creator?

From "Marvel: Five Fabulous Decades of the World's Greatest Comics" by Les Daniels, p. 166: "I took Len Wein to lunch one day," says Roy Thomas, "and we talked about how to create a Canadian character for the comics, because we had a fair amount of sales there. I thought Wolverine was a good name, and I said I wanted him to be a little, scrappy guy. Then I left it to Len."

Redundant Information

I think the last paragraph of Publication History should be deleted, as the information there is already present in the 4th paragraph of the article. AltrEgo2001 22:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Wolverine In Other Media

Although I do commend the author for the extensive research involved in this portion of the Wolverine article, I think this should be edited so as to not sound like an 8th grade book report. I'll do it if no one else wants to, but with the interest in the new movie I'm sure someone more adept at writing Wiki articles will see the grammatical errors and take care of it. AltrEgo2001 23:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Powers and abilities

The New powers and abilities section too long (see past dissusions), why do we need it?T-1000 02:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Your edits look good to me. I like Wolverine and all, but that section was a bit fancrufty.--DCAnderson 02:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I trimmed a bit of Odin's Beard's edits, such as the reference to Spider-Man. T-1000 02:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I got no problem with a few trims here and there. I edited the section mostly because it all just looked so jumbled and thrown together without any real sense of organization. I also felt that a little detail was needed, nothing outrageous or anything. And yeah, the Spider-Man reference was unnecessary, didn't really think about it at the time. Just popped into my head and sounded good at the time. And DCAnderson, c'mon, let's not bring any sort of fanboy references into this. It's a bit of a cheap shot. I think it's fairly safe to assume that all of us who contribute to these articles, read them, and/or take time out of our lives to provide acurate details to them are "fanboys" of some type, otherwise we wouldn't bother. Odin's Beard

CITATIONS!?

Why are you people getting your knickers in a twist! You want to put citations for a comic character! The fact that should be a concern, its' frivelous and pointless. And the fact that comics have rectons whenever, who knows what citation would be rendered useless. And don't worry, its not like a University Professor is going to see one minor mistake of continiuty on this Wolverine profile,and then castrate the website. Just fix it if it has a mistake, and that will be that. Don't overcomplicate matters.

I was hoping to work the article up to Good article status. At the very least, it is Wikipedia policy. It is especially important for the parts about the IRL things (ie what the comic creators have said abot him)--DCAnderson 04:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

A blind eye could be turned to the fiction side of things (though an issue number would be nice), but things like that the creators originally intended for him to actully be a mutant wolverine need to be referenced.--DCAnderson 04:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It's necessary to have issue numbers and to keep an out-of-universe perspective in order to help maintain fair use. The entire article should have citations, without them, the claims and statements in the article are not verifiable and we stand a strong possibility of merely paraphrasing fiction, which is copyright infringement. Please read up on policy and guidelines before ranting. --Newt ΨΦ 18:19, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

tired of fixing grammar

the section I said might have been vandalized (see page history around the timestamp I sign with here) had many minor problems seemingly introduced, which I've gotten tired of fixing as I was reading it. Someone should go through the page history and see if someone vandalized this section inconspicuously. A lot of the sentences just don't make sense now. 87.97.8.232 15:31, 10 June 2006 (UTC).

tired of fixing grammer.

the section I said might have been vandalized (see page history around the timestamp I sign with here) had many minor problems seemingly introduced, which I've gotten tired of fixing as I was reading it. Someone should go through the page history and see if someone vandalized this section inconspicuously. A lot of the sentences just don't make sense now. 87.97.8.232 15:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC).

Gahck and Erista, Tribe wife and son

Erista, wolverine's son, wasn't listed under relatives. Some of you may not even know he existed so please visit http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/gahcksavland.htm before even considering editing this out. Also if someone does i'd appreciate the help in arguing for it to stay. I don't think there'll be much of an issue here, but you never know, this IS wikipedia... Btw i know she's not his wife, and so i didnt list Gahck under it. Also they're from Wolverine: The Jungle Adventure if u want a comic reference — ChocolateRoses ^talk

You're right, I completely forgot about that. I don't believe that Wolverine even knows about his son but I agree that he should be included under the relatives section. Odin's Beard

Hey, could this son be Sabreclaw from the alternate universe MC2. I read somewhere that Sabreclaw was Wolverine's son with a woman from the Savage land, and I saw Erista's picture and he has the same complextion and hair color as Sabreclaw.

Extensive Edits

Whew! I just did some extensive edits on Wolverine's history. Hope you all enjoy! Solofire6 01:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Wolverine reflexes

In the comics powers/abilities it doesn't state that wolverine has superhuman reflexes, or enhanced reaction timing ?

It's stated that his agility and relfexes are enhanced to levels that are beyond the human body's natural limits. Sounds superhuman to me. Odin's Beard 14:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't it beyond NORMAL human??(which isn't superhuman) Click on the second link under "(disputed! read below)" above^. I'd say he counts more as enhanced than superhuman. — ChocolateRoses ^talk

Skrull Wolverine

There was a period of time where Wolverine was apparently replaced by a Skrull. Does anyone know what that was all about or how long it lasted? - HKMARKS 02:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Apocalypse had aquiared a number of Skrull servants during The Twelve storyline. The Twelve storyline involved Apocalypse sending his minions, including new Horsemen and Skrulls to capture twelve mutants so that he could basically absorb their powers and add them to his own to gain some form of omnipotence. Prior to this storyline, the X-Men were returning from an adventure in space and were ambushed by Skrulls serving Apocalypse. Everyone was rendered unconscious, I forget how exactly, but there wasn't some great battle I don't believe. Wolverine was taken and a Skrull was left in his place to impersonate Wolverine and to sort of help rip the X-Men apart from the inside. This Skrull had been trained for quite a long time not only to use his powers to look like Wolverine, but he had to learn to mold his personality, his manner of speech, his mannerisms, etc. in order to be convincing. The Skrull did his job perfectly, he looked, sounded, and behaved exactly as Wolverine. Even Xavier could tell no difference. The Skrull maintained this illusion for weeks, maybe even months, partly because he was able to avoid most dangerous situations. although some were unavoidable. The Skrulls are unable to duplicate a mutant's powers, at least powers that are somewhat complicated. Skrulls are unable to duplicate the X-gene. The Skrull was able to morph bone claws but didn't possess Wolverine's superhuman senses, enhanced physical abilities, or his mutant healing factor. Eventually, this imposter Wolverine accompanied a team of X-Men consisting of Colossus, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Cable, and Rogue I believe in opposing one of Apocalypse's Horsemen, the Horseman known as Death. Death was a mysterious figure, powerfully built, wearing armor and a read cloack with some kind of scarf that completely concealed his head and facial features. Death also carried a scimitar-like sword with a very logn and widely curved blade. Death defeated the X-Men and ran "Wolverine" through with this sword, killing him. Death would later turn out to be the actual Wolverine and the Skrull imposter was discovered as Beast was performing an autopsy as to why the imposter Wolverine, who they still believed to actually be Wolverine at this time, had died. It was revealed that despite being a perfect genetic match to Wolverine, the individual laid out in the medical lab had no X-Factor in his genes, meaning that not only was he not Wolverine, but he wasn't even a mutant. Fans have since referred to this Skrull imposter as Skrullverine. As for how long it lasted, I'm not certain exactly of how many issues. Wolverine made an appearance as Death, under Apocalypse's control, in about three issues of his own montly title. Odin's Beard 17:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

yeah i didnt like that stories - skrulls are very resilient and have some form of healing factor due to their shapeshifting. Just listen to what wolverine says about them in Young Avengers #12! — ChocolateRoses ^talk

Being burned to a skeleton?

Someone keeps adding to the powers and abilities section that Wolverine has regenerated completely from having the flesh burned from his body, leaving nothing but his bones. The only instance I know of where the flesh was instantly incinerated from his body was during the Days of Future Past storyline and that's an alternate universe. When else has this occurred and is it canon? Odin's Beard 17:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

That's me and others - it's there on the page - Wolverine 43, the latest issue.

http://cgknight.f2s.com/wolverineburnt1.jpg

http://cgknight.f2s.com/wolverineburnt2.jpg

--Charlesknight 17:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering if it might be the new issue, I haven't picked it up yet. Thanks for the heads up. Guess that ends the old debate as to whether or not he can regenerate missing limbs and vital organs. Odin's Beard 18:02, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Keep it there for now, but seing as that was last issue, im still hoping for a better explanation. Lots of fans on comic boards online are a bit pissed off at this. It's a total change in ability really -- this means (1) he's immortal and (2) where the frick did he get the energy from to do this?? It used to be he needed the energy from food within him. — ChocolateRoses ^talk

68.38.132.19 18:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)I think it is safe to assume that the Wolverine's skeleton kept his brain unharmed and so he used those cells to recreate his intire body. It is the only way that part with Nitro makes sense

It's creative licencing. It says in the article that the level of his healing factor has varied from writer to writer. This is the highest his hf has ever been writen though, and may cause a few problems continuty wise. JQF 23:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Power and abilities

The Powers and abilities section is too long again. Needs some trimming. T-1000 19:45, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Odin's beard, please talk about the changes before you make them. T-1000 02:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I accidentally removed the picture. I was attempting to fix the statement made under the picture that was shown because it stated that it was Wolverine regenerating after being reduced to a skeleton while the picture was actually the same picture of Wolverine being shot that's been there for the past 6 months. I'm not familiar with adding pictures to articles, never done it before. I wasn't making changes, just made a mistake. As to the section being too long, how is adding one more line, which contails relevant information, making the article too long? Lighten the hell up man. Odin's Beard 16:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

68.38.132.19 18:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC) I think it is safe to assume that the Wolverine's skeleton kept his brain unharmed and so he used those cells to recreate his entire body. It is the only way that part with Nitro makes sense

Wolverine claws

From what i had understood, there are no holes for his claws to comme out,like a animals claws , they each time slise throue the flesh ,and then his healing capabilities close the holes, when they are retracted.In the first movie , when Rogue ask him if it heart when they come out ,he replies "every time".Is this the only technical explanation of the subject.--87.64.6.217 12:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, pretty much. There are no permanent holes for the claws to come out. They're housed in his forearms and pop out between his knuckles. Each time they're popped out or retracted, they leave large holes behind that are healed instantly, but that doesn't prevent him from feeling pain. Wolverine's tolerance for pain is much higher than that of most people, he's used to it, and he's endured so much of it that it's easy for him to cope. Odin's Beard 14:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Not only this, but I imagine that the pain would be very brief, in spite of its intensity, due to the healing factor.

Something that could be brought up in the article is the variety of ways in which Wolverine's claws have been depicted over the character's existence, as well as a note about the anatomical impossibility of some of the depictions in the comics and the X-ray in the first film. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 04:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, in most depictions I've seen, they rest -atop- his hands, as if glued there, when there's no way they could have come out of his forearms at that angle, then 'corrected' to the parallel angle. The movie version seems to have them between his knuckles, which makes more sense

Find a reputable source that speaks about this before adding it to the article. We can synthesize outside sources, but we cannot make our own judgments. We report facts, we don't analyze them. --Newt ΨΦ 20:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Pic of Wolverine being reduced to a skeleton

Someone keeps removing the picture from the powers and abilities section displaying Wolverine being reduced to his skeleton after Nitro uses his powers against him. This same person states that in #44, it's revealed that it wasn't Wolverine but a SHIELD Life Decoy. I've just been to Marvel.com and Wolverine #44 doesn't even hit stores until July 26, so how does this person know that it was a Life Decoy? Until the issue hits shelves and verifies this claim, I'll just keep adding the picture back. And lay off the name calling. It's immature, idiotic, and has no place here. Odin's Beard 00:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's a third opinion: leave out the pic and the talk about regenerating from a skeleton until the next issue actually hits the stands. CovenantD 01:12, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, since it would be OR at this point. T-1000 21:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

What's the resolution on that pic, by the way? Fair use tag says "low resolution" images are believed to be okay. --Newt ΨΦ

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball - nobody has seen 44 - so I say we leave in it and then we can ALTER it if it turns out to be a LMD or a drug-induced coma or whatever. And people throwing around words like "retarded" should remember what Wikipedia says about civility to other editors.

--Charlesknight 17:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree about the name-calling thing, but yeah i don't think that was wolverine. People have links to the comic industry and people read issues weeks before theyre out. i believe this "rumour" — ChocolateRoses ^talk

Well it seems you were wrong and this is a good example of why wikipedia is NOT a crystal ball. --Charlesknight 23:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Movie

I added the announcement of the movie following the press release on the Empire film site though I don't know if it is in the right place or not. Fell free to move it somewhere more appropriate.Schnizzle 15:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Ignore me its in there all ready I've deleted my edited.Schnizzle 15:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Glenn Danzig

Is the fact that he was considered for playing Wolverine in an X-Men film back during the 1990s really all that noteworthy, especially considering that the article section is devoted to music? To my knowledge, and if I'm wrong let me know, the Wolverine character hasn't been immortalized in a song, there isn't a band or artist that uses Wolverine as a stage name, etc. Odin's Beard 01:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Entombed's album Wolverine Blues had him on the album cover, and while the song doesn't explicitely say anything, I think the vid had one of the members in a wolvie shirt and the lyrics could vaguely be Wolverine related. -August 11, 2006

Find a reliable source and add it. --Chris Griswold 08:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge

Per WP:CMC, Ultimate character articles should be merged into those of their Marvel Universe counterparts. --Chris Griswold 22:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

• Merge -- Chris Griswold 22:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge: Might as well merge them, it's happening to all the other articles with the Ultimate characters. Some parts of the article could stand a little trimming I believe. I think that most of the section about alternate versions of the character isn't all that necessary or at the very least could use some major trimming. That particular section looks as if it takes up almost as much article space as the publication and character history. Odin's Beard 23:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
• Merge as soon as this article is condensed. It might save us from having to constantly remove the speculation about how Ultimate Adamantium might be weaker than 616 Adamantium. --Newt ΨΦ 01:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - WHAT?! I just got a nose bleed. Thanks. --Chris Griswold 01:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
• Separate - The article has so much information, the addition would make an already extensive article too busy. I feel the article should be kept the way it is, a brief summary with a link to the already existing Ultimate article. --66.109.248.114, August 8, 2006.
• Merge -HKMARKS 23:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion closed. Result was: MERGE --Chris Griswold 01:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Eastwood influence?

I'm not an X-pert though I used to read the comics often. I challenge anyone to watch the Man with No Name trilogy and not find influences Eastwood's character(s) have had on Wolverine's personality and mannerisms. Is there no available information on this? 151.205.35.249 07:33, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

There is for Hugh Jackman's version. Look here, here, and here. --Newt ΨΦ 15:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think the fact that Singer asked him to watch Eastwood films shows that this isn't a shot in the dark, and I don't really see that people are accusing Jackman as being a gross deviant from the comics in any real sense. The problem is I don't personally know who is responsible for the fundamental development of Wolverine as we know him and then at that point how to divine their inspiration. It almost seems self-evident though. 141.153.123.195 16:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Self-evident is POV and asserting this is speculation w/out citations, which I'm sure you realize. I guess it's more "Were Len Wein and Chris Claremont inspired by Clint Eastwood?" then. I tried googling and could only find a vague reference. --Newt ΨΦ 17:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The character's personality is very similar to the personalities of some of Eastwood's most famous roles, including the Man With No Name from the Spaghetti Westerns and Dirty Harry Calahan. I've heard lots of people say the character's personality is an amalgam of many of the characters portrayed by John Wayne, James Dean, and Clint Eastwood. But, I don't believe it can be stated officially. While the influence is there, to include it in the article is more along the lines of POV rather than a generally known and accepted fact. As Newt said, only an exceptionally vague reference was found. Odin's Beard 00:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Navbox Guidelines

Please follow this link Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics/templates/navboxes to join in on the discussion . --Basique 12:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Origin

I'm of the understanding we are to limit plot synopses in articles of fictional characters to brief summaries. That said, I also believe that including the entire plot to a limited series is not necessary to the understanding of this character. I think Origin section should be worded entirely differently; something like: "The 2006 Marvel Comics limited series Origin reveals much of Wolverine's history previously left a mystery. Set in the 19th century and depicting Wolverine as sickly young boy named James Howlett, the series establishes that Wolverine is over 100 years old and reveals that "Logan" is not Wolverine's real name..." and so on. This would put the section in an out-of-universe perspective, more in line with WP:WAF and easier to argue fair use. However, I realize my previous edit was a bit nonsensical. Overall, this article needs to be condensed, that was just my first (albeit poorly executed) step. --Newt ΨΦ 21:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that you're trimming so much that an average reader won't understand what those paragraphs are talking about. T-1000 21:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I said as much in the opener for this discussion (see above: "a bit nonsensical", "poorly executed"). I'll see if I can't make a more sensible edit later :) --Newt ΨΦ 21:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, I'm somewhat surprised that there isn't an article for Origin. It's a significant (understatement!) storyline for one of Marvel's most popular characters. If we could spin off the reverted copy into an article about the story, I think both camps would be adequately happy. I'd be bold and do it, but I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough about the story to be comfortable doing it. EVula 21:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree with this, though I would hope that such an article would be more than a mere repository for the plot of the series, and have a bit of secondary analysis and critical and fan response as well as some development and behind-the-scenes-ness. --Newt ΨΦ 21:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I consider that a given. I wasn't suggesting the disputed content become the entire article, just serve as the jumping-off point for one. EVula 02:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It could be a very good article if media coverage is factored in. It was a big deal for Marvel to reveal that origin; there was a fear it was going to ruin one of Marvel's most popular characters. --Chris Griswold 03:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The common practice with the limited series articles is to just list the summaries and leave them so far as I've seen. At least the more recent ones. That was why I offered the caveat, not because I didn't figure you knew. --Newt ΨΦ 04:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Powers and OHOTMU

I noticed an additional in-line comment added after mine discussing some of Wolverine's uncited powers. OHOTMU statistics are generally frowned upon by WP:COMIC editors (see: here and here). As I understand it, if certain fictional facts are found only in the OHOTMU, then it is difficult to argue WP:FU. Basically, fictional facts are not facts per se (independently verifiable separate from the reporting source) but fiction, and rewriting or paraphrasing fiction is not transformative. As the OHOTMU is an encyclopedic source (albeit of fictional facts) we are a competing product (a free encyclopedia) and since we are in no way transforming this fictional material then we are infringing on the OHOTMU's copyright. I'm not against these powers being listed, however, if we could get an issue of a comic book where a character states that Wolverine can endure strenuous activity for days, or where he is depicted lifting greater weight than a human of his stature would reasonably be able to, I'd be a lot more comfortable and the article would be more in line with WP:CMC editorial guidelines. --Newt ΨΦ 14:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to admit that I'm confused. I've red posts by editors stating that by including things taken from the OHOTMU results in copyright infringement. However, if that's the case, then isn't copyright being violated by even having articles about Marvel characters anyhow? The articles contain most of the same information including a fictional character biography and detailed description of whatever superhuman powers a character has, just as the OHOTMU. As you stated earlier, the OHOTMU is an encyclopedic tool so isn't copyright being violated? Anyone could come to Wikipedia and read the same information for free rather than pay three bucks for an issue of the OHOTMU. Odin's Beard 23:47, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Which is why we shouldn't include information from the OHOTMU, or at least information only found in the OHOTMU, and definitely not report information only found in the OHOTMU in the same manner the OHOTMU reports it. We're not supposed to be a replacement for the OHOTMU, which offers an in-universe history of the character. We're supposed to relate the character as a phenomenon (not a person) and note its effects on the real world. Read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction). It should give you an idea of what Wikipedia's goal is, and the problems with much of the comic book articles. --Newt ΨΦ 02:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It still doesn't really answer my question, I don't know maybe I'm just not getting it. I fail to see how using information taken from one Marvel publication, namely the OHOTMU, violates copyright when using information taken from other Marvel publications doesn't. Say, for the sake of argument, that an issue of the OHOTMU states that Namor can lift approximately 100 tons. Now, if it's mentioned in the article, it's a violation of copyright. But if an issue of regular monthly comic book or a mini-series that's canon is mentioned in the article stating that he can lift approximately 100 tons, then it's not a violation of copyright? Sorry, I just don't see the difference. Odin's Beard 00:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Look up fair use. Better yet, here's an excerpt:

"In general four factors must be considered:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The difference is this is an encyclopedia, and so is the OHOTMU. Our product is thus possibly competition for the OHOTMU, and it's free. If we keep the plot summaries to a minimum, we're not a competing product with the comics or we at least offer less competition. --Newt ΨΦ 00:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)