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Sokhumi name

According to Britannica: "Sokhumi, formerly Sukhumi, city, capital of Abkhazia, Georgia. It lies on the site of the ancient Greek colony of Dioscurias on the Black Sea coast. Sokhumi's seaside location, beaches, and warm climate made it a popular Black Sea resort, with many sanatoriums and holiday camps.....

I also found other sources (National Geographic) where they mention that Sokhumi is an official name of the city and Sukhumi is its formal name (Used during USSR). Do we change the name? Please advice Noxchi Borz 21:06, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I have a National Geographic atlas, and is spells the city Sokhom. I'll double-check when I find it. —Khoikhoi 23:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Khoi its a first time i hear the name "Sokhom" :) You must be mistaken. Turks called the city "Sukhum Kale" and so did Russians, "Sukhum". In Abkhaz its "aq'wa" , in Georgian "tskhumi" and officialy after 1991 "Sokhumi." During USSR it was Sukhumi due to Rusification of the name. But Please double-check National Geographic. Britannica has good info too. Thanks Khoi :) Noxchi Borz 00:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, actually, it's Sokhum, not Sokhom. Incidentally, the map also uses the term separatists. ;) —Khoikhoi 01:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, here's an interesting ethnic map of the Caucasus (also National Geographic, but is a Feb. 1996 issue, the map below is from the 2005 Atlas.) This one is pretty good as well, but it's not NG. —Khoikhoi 01:15, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

File:Sokhom.png

Well Khoi, you should work for NG. Where do you get all those rare articles from NG? :) They should hire you. Ok, both of the maps which you had links to have "Sokhumi" the one here is "Sokhum." The name "Sokhum" is a mistake for sure. Its definately not Abkhaz, Russian, Turk, Arab or Georgian. They forgot to include "i" in the end. Here is what the city is called in following languages: Abkhaz: "aq'wa (trans. water), Georgian: "tskhumi", Turk: "Sukhum Kale", Arab: Sukhum, Russian: "Suxum" and "Suxumi" and Mingrelian: "tskhuma." I sent you more photos, check your gmail :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ldingley (talk • contribs) 01:31, 12 May 2006.

Well, I think I heard somewhere that Sukhum/Sokhum is the name used by Abkhazians when the speak Russian. I also heard that they dropped the "-i" suffix because it's characteristic of Georgian names, so the Abkhaz see it as offensive. Yes, I got the email, outstanding as usual. :) I'll reply to it soon. —Khoikhoi 01:48, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, NG should definitely hire me. ;) —Khoikhoi 01:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Khoi, NG is a great source but not always accurate. I’d far prefer Sokhumi (the correct name of the city), but Sukhumi is also OK even though it’s a Russificated form. However, we must add the note explaining that the official name of the city is Sokhumi frequently transliterated as Sukhumi. Sukhum is an old Turkish name which was reestablished by Abkhaz nationalists in order to eliminate everything Georgian. However, both Abkhaz separatist officials and Georgian authorities continue to use Sukhumi when they give interviews in Russian. Most international sources also use either Sukhumi or Sokhumi. Here are my results of googling (excluding wikipedia):

Russian Google:

I totally agree with Kober. I don’t think Wiki articles should be written in the way not to offend some individuals. The importance of "official" status is very crutail for truthfulness and accuracy of Wiki articles. I actually met Abkhaz who did not find any offences in that name. The articles should represent in the way Britannica represents, an officially known and recognized material. Officially it’s Sokhumi and there are tons of un-official names of the city (every city has them), but what are we promoting here? Why is there a tendancy to promote pro-separatist agenda on these articles? That map Khoi which you attached to this page is very funny. They have maintained Georgian names on all the cities (Tkhvarcheli, Ochamchire, Gagra, Gudauta, Gali, Bichvimta, etc) but took away "i" from the Sokhum. If they want to be pro separatist, it should be: Sukhum, Tkhvarchal, Gagr, Gudaut, Gal, Ochamchir, Putsunda, etc :) BTW Bichvinta is purely Georgian name which definitely offends Abkhaz :) Wow. Another interesting thing, The color of those regions are almost same as Russian Federation :) Also somehow Chechnya's borders are not shown (its like they don’t exist) and the borders of other N Caucasian Republics also, thats amzing. Also Karabakh borders are totally wrong. This map is perfect in sense of propaganda and limited knowledge of the issue/geography which the author had when he was chopping off those territories. :) I think we should have Sukhumi or Sokhumi (official name). But I respect all oppinions and welcome all suggestions.Noxchi Borz 13:40, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey guys—I never said we should move the page to Sukhum/Sokhum. I personally would prefer Sukhumi over Sokhumi, as it conforms to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). We had a similar dispute, should the page be at Kyiv or Kiev? As you can see, the English name for the article is used today. Besides, Sukhumi is by far the most common name. Anyways, there were no bad intentions. When I get the job with NG I’ll fix the place names. ;) —Khoikhoi 15:25, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Khoi, trust me they don’t pay well. :) Their best photographers still have financial problems and they usually go by with the help of commercial websites. That’s capitalism for you :) Sure, lets keep Sukhumi. Noxchi Borz 15:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Cool, btw, have you seen this? —Khoikhoi 15:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

BS my dear Khoy, the last thing Georgia wants is war. Only through peaceful means they will be able to achieve settlement, and they know it better than anyone. Don’t trust whatever Kokoit is declaring from Moscow. Moscow told him to say so but nobody believes in that crap. Yesterday in Moscow they started to deport all Georgian nationals and placed many posters on the street: "Respect yourself and your country, Dont drinks Georgian Wine." This all reminds me of Third Reich and SA operations. It’s disgusting. Noxchi Borz 17:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Huh! It’s a typical propaganda machine. Do you think Georgians are so mad to initiate a new war when the country has just begun to recover and is but slowly improving? The new peace proposal by the Georgian government has just received an international support. Kokoity relocated to Moscow a few months ago and said that the Russian capital is the best place to run the government in Tskhinvali – the most ridiculous words I’ve ever heard from a politician. The fact is that common South Ossetians are being increasingly convinced in necessity to return within the Georgian state. This is the reason for such claims. The Russian military bases are finally leaving Georgia. The country is going to withdraw from the CIS and is moving closer and closer to NATO. Now, guess who wants the war… Kober 17:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Khoi go here its a different NG map with Sokhumi: http://www.ngmapstore.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=185&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&keyword=georgia

BTW those maps are not official geographical NG maps. All atlases have same content. Kober you are 100% correct. Noxchi Borz 17:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

http://mapmachine.nationalgeographic.com/mapmachine/searchandbrowse.html?task=getSearchPlace&place=abkhazia

Search Results:

There are 27 Available Maps for "Abkhazia, Autonomous Region, Georgia". Noxchi Borz 18:44, 12 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Given the context of the article, I understand how fruitfully the Kremlin's propaganda machine works. Very sad. Kutaisi, Georgia. June 09, 2006

de facto separatist

Hi Tasc before editing, please review the archived discussion about attaching separatist to the de facto term. Based on numerous sources, we have all agreed that current so called "government" and regime in Abkhazia is separatist. Please try to avoid POVs and let’s stick to NPOV. Otherwise state and present sources which contradict separatist status of Abkhazian regime. Thanks. Noxchi Borz 17:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the term de facto without further clarification is much confusing as the legal government of Abkhazia still continues to exercise both de facto and de jure control over the southeastern corner of the region known as the Kodori Gorge.--Kober 17:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agree. You need definite clarification of so called de facto rule of Abkhazia which was taken by separatist forces. Noxchi Borz 18:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aaah, Bless...

Clearly many of the contributions to this article have been made by people whose first language is not English. Articles don't exist in Eastern European languages and the concept is difficult to grasp - should one correct the grammar? How can one do so? This is one of probably thousands to which this comment applies, it's probably going to change over time, and one would not wish to discourage people from contributing just because their English is not up to scratch. Any suggestions? I could change the grammar, but can't contribute materially to the facts.

Recent edits

The ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia is a well-documented fact. With all due respect, tasc, you have a strong anti-Georgian POV. I've seen it before on the Sochi talk page. --Kober 15:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, unfortunately, Tasc has strong bias towards Georgian articles and he jeopardises the integrity and truthfulness of Wiki articles. I only hope that he will stop implementing personal or nationalistic agendas on Wiki and respect the main pillars of Wikipedia, NPOV. So far he has demonstrated otherwise. Ldingley 16:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

tasc, if you add the tag, you should make a note on the talk page explaining your reasoning.--Kober 17:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

POV

Recent changes to the stable version of article initiated by anon ip led to highly pov version. Threats of some editors made it impossible to edit page and maintain NPOV. -- tasc ^words_deeds 17:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Stable doesn't mean neutral. The text shouldn't be unbalanced and blatantly pro-separatist. Perhaps you would like to point out what specific part of the article you find non-neutral?--Kober 17:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was stable and it was neutral. -- tasc ^words_deeds 17:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tasc, you are undermining the NPOV of the article by adding your own POVs. You have proven before on other articles (ex. Sochi) to have anti-Georgian bias and as I noticed you are slowly implementing your own ideas into articles which are related to Georgian events. I highly recommend you to maintain NPOV regardless of your Russian background and start a constructive co-operation with other editors like Kober who have contributed to Wikipedia tremendously. Pro-separatist, nationalist POV will not be tolerated on any post-soviet conflict articles. Take a look at Nagorny-Karabakh, a good example of co-operation and respect for NPOV. Ldingley 17:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have anti-Georgian bias. I just don't see why politcs should be put in every hole. Could you please explain why your edits are not pov?-- tasc ^words_deeds 17:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, you mix politics and show hidden national agenda on Abkhazia article. My contributions are always supported by sources both secondary and primary. Please consult and look into sources. I can provide list of sources you can review. But i will ask you again to drop the POV pushing and maintain NPOV. Thanks. Ldingley 17:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd rather drop my contribution. Will be telling people what to trust and what not on wp. Go ahead. Right whatever you want. None will read that rubbish anyway. -- tasc ^words_deeds 17:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Im very sorry you feel like that. All the best. Ldingley 17:56, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reworking

Hey Noxchi. It’s a pity to see that there are only a few users interested in this article. Yet we can cooperate to improve the quality of the current version. First of all, I think we should abridge the history section which is becoming too long and create a separate article on the History of Abkhazia. For the sake of compromise I agree to change the words like "massacre" with more neutral expressions, or at least we can use the wording how the UN and OSCE describe the events. Tell me what you think. Thanks, --Kober 17:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Kober, great idea. We can start working of History of Abkhazia article with the help of sources from western scholars (Lang, Wardlop, Allen, Andersen, Mc'Killen, Blair, etc). As for massacres. Please review the book by Chervonnaia, Svetlana (Russian journalist witnessing the events). She called those crimes as massacres and also Human Rights Watch. "Georgia/Abkhazia: Violations of the Laws of War and Russia's Role in the Conflict." Published March 1995. I will also gather all UN and OSCE resolutions on Abkhazia like they did on Nagorno-Karabakh article. But its up to you, you may change the term "massacres" but judging from many reports, they were massacres (specially in Sukhumi and Gagra). Cheers. Ldingley 17:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot, Noxchi. Then I will start the History of Abkhazia article and put it on wiki in a few days. I'm not well-versed in the legal issues and it will be really great if you can focus on that. If most sources consider those events massacres (and they really do) we should obviously keep exactly this sort of description. Thanks again - respect. --Kober 18:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anthem

Abkhazia's anthem should be listed in the article. Badagnani 23:05, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article is too long

We need to shrink the article. Its becoming too big and it would be good if we transferred the chapters like "Abkhazia Today" and "Future of Abkhazia" into the Politics of Abkhazia article. Also we will have separate page for History of Abkhazia. Please make your suggestions. Thanks in advance. Ldingley 16:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Demographics at the beginning of the century

It is stated that Georgians constituted a majority in Abkhazia at the beginning of the century, and this is backed by information from the EB from 1911 detailing the ethnic composition of Sukhumi. The one does not necessairily follow from the other however, urban centers generally show a larger percentage of people of 'foreign' origin than a country overall does. Thus if one merely looks at the composition of Riga one might be led to believe that there are more Russians in Latvia than Latvians. There aren't. Of course it is not given the Georgian population actually was concentrated in the urban areas, but due to the uncertainty of the statistical relationship (also considering the small size of Sukhumi at the time) I will adapt the text accordingly. Sephia karta 15:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]