Talk:Indigenous Australians

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Since when are TIs not Indigienous Australians?

Can someone please provide a reference that indicates that Torres Strait Islanders are not Indigenous Australians? I am Aboriginal myself, and work with numerous indigenous service groups. I have yet to encounter any group, whether govt. or private sector, that does not include TIs as part of their charter. Nor can I find a single online reference to indicate that TIs are not considered indigenous Australians.

Most conclusively all state and federal Inidigenous Affairs departments explicitely encompass TIs.

Unless someone can provide an unassailable reference that TIs are not covered under the Indigenous Australian banner I will convert the "Indigenous Australian" topic to stub that links to this article (which I will rename "Aboriginal Australians" and to the TI article.

This is a good article, and very well written, but to deny that TIs are Indigenous Australians is insulting as well as inaccurate and can not be ignored.

I've cleaned up the intro to the article a bit as I think it was hard to understand on this issue. I agree that it's clear that TSI are indigenous Australians who consider themselves distinct from Aboriginal people: I'm not sure that the intro was not saying this as it was a bit confusingly written. Also, I have removed the statement that:

Even the facial features of the Torres Strait Islanders are distinctively different from that of Aborigines.

--I think this is impressionistic, and therefore POV. Also, there is great diversity in appearance (facial and otherwise) of indigenous Australians, and also amongst TSI, so I think it is redundant and as well as not necessarily being corect (I have met people from Central Australia who could pass for TSI, and vice versa). Dougg 05:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Dougg. However I can't see where you've cleared up the error. The intro still says "The term ... does not include the Torres Strait Islanders". To the best of my knowledge this is untrue. The term "Indigenous Australian" does encompass TIs.

The bigger issue is that we have an article entitled "Indigenous Australians" and fails to provide even basic information on one of the two major divsions of indigenous Australians. This isn't a trivial oversight, it makes the entire article both incomplete and incorrect. It is directly comparable to an article on Native Americans neglecting to mention Inuit/Eskimo.

It also leads to compounding errors within the article, such as statements that indigenous Australians never practiced agriculture and that the only domestic animal known to indigenous Australians was the dog. Such statements are clearly not true since TIs were agriculturalists and kept domestic pigs. Yet while the article is titled "Indigenous Australians" and only discusses Aborigines there is no simple way to correct such factual errors.

Since the article only discusses Australian Aborigines is there any reason why it shouldn't be renamed "Australian Aborigines"?

It seems to me that would clear up all sources of confusion and would enable us to easily clear up the current errors by replacing "indigenous Australian" with ""aboriginal Australian". It is perfectly true to say that Aboriginal Australians never pratciced agriculture etc. Such statements are not true of Indigenous Australians.

Pending any objections (or evidence that TIs are not Indigenous Australians) this is what I intend to do. Create an "Indigenous Australian" stub with links to this article re-named as "Australian aborigines" and to the TI artcile. If anyone wished to later expand the Indigenous Australian stub they are welcome to do so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.164.198.180 (talk • contribs) .

Definition of 'tribe'

I've removed

Linguists, however, define a tribe as a group of people who are mutually intelligible.

as it's incorrect--linguists tend to avoid the term 'tribe' and deal more with languages, which may or may not correspond with some notion of 'tribe'. Dougg 06:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

A tribe is a soical group of people larger than a 'band' but rarely numbering more than a few thousand . See Renfre and Bahn where there is heaps re it with some relaed back specifically to Oz. Also see Mulvaney. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.9.59 (talk • contribs) (1:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Culture: Walkabout

The Culture section seems to imply that the 'walkabout' is a myth propograted by Non-Aborigines. If so, it doesn't belong in the Culture section at all, but rather a section on misconceptions about Aboriginal people. Does anything have any insight on this? Ashmoo 04:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Walkabout does exist and is an intergral part of culture as its where Law/Lore comes from even if a lot has been lost re it. Slowly, as the aspects are found again, Dreaming paths are being reidentified and understood again. Its all pretty profound as in it, is the story of the forming of this continent in the very distant past as well as other things. Where once hills were just that, they take on new dimensions when the content if recognised, etc. All can be demonstrated scientifically which indicates Indigenous scientific knowledge was far ahead of that of the Europeans at invasion.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.9.57 (talk • contribs) 04:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC+10 hours)

Request for this article to be expanded

This is a request for this aricle to be expanded. I am a student and am doing an asignment on traditional aboriginal technologies. There is not a lot in this article about the tools they used and the various different technolgies they used before europian settlement. It would be much appreciated if someone with a good understanding of this area could expand this article as it would benefit any student or person wishing to find information on this topic. Thanks.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.238.67.98 (talk)

I honestly mean no offense by this (which normally starts for an offensive reply, but bare with me), but this would be the perfect opportunity for you to contribute. Do a lot of research for your own assignment (By the way, I would strongly suggest against using Wikipedia as a source on any assignment), find some sources, and expand this article yourself (sources included) to help the next person who comes along. Trjn 10:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I was about to indicate the same sentiment as Trjn. You will learn a lot more by doing your own research, and can then contribute to Wikipedia with what you found. Wikipedia (and any other encyclopaedia) should not be used as a source for your assignment, but an overview to help you discover what you need to explore to get the details. Ideally, Wikipedia will provide references, external links, and a bibliography to help you find source materials for your assignment. We look forward to seeing your results. --Scott Davis ^Talk 11:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Dreamtime vs Dreaming

Instead of using the term 'Dreamtime' the term 'Dreaming' is more appropriate. Aboriginal culture is multifaceted with the Dreaming being in the future as well as the past and above and below. 'Dreamtime' suggests that it was in the past and is over, where 'Dreaming' decribes how it really is i.e still happening.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.9.205 (talk • contribs) 16:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC+10 hours)

• See discussion at Talk:Dreamtime_(mythology)#Could_we_move_this_page.3F and below. --A Y Arktos\^talk 21:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Population

I removed the following para from the Population section as the cited source makes no mention of the number of people defined as Ind.Austs increasing faster than the birth rate. The source also directly contradicts the without being of indigenous descent' assertion (I suspect the original editor confused AND and OR).

The number of people defined as Indigenous Australians has increased faster than natural birth rate over the last century as a result of the reclassification of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander origin to include, amongst other things, those people who consider themselves to be Aboriginal, and recognised as such by their community, without being of indigenous descent.[1]

Ashmoo 02:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Nomenclature of deceased Aboriginal or TSI people

I have a suggestion regarding the cultural taboo of naming deceased Aborignal people. I was thinking of a template that could be inserted at the top of all pages that refer to Aboriginal or TSI people, something along the lines of "This article may refer to living or deceased people of Aboriginal or TSI descent." Perhaps with an image of the Aboriginal and TSI flags in the boxes at left and right? What do others think? I do not have sufficient expertise in the markup language to create one in template space, perhaps I will work it out myself but if there is a consensus that it would be necessary/helpful/polite, then anyone else feel free to create this template. Shiftaling 07:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's necessary. WP is not censored and we shouldn't needlessly clutter articles just because some people might have certain sensitivities. JSIN 10:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Similar things have been talked about here and here, but not yet implemented. I personally think it would be a good idea. --Ptcamn 10:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

"I don't think that's necessary... needlessly clutter" is very much a POV statement from a certain cultural viewpoint - you say it's needless but the Wikipedia has warnings that prevent people spoiling their enjoyment of the latest Hollywood release. How US-centric. Personally I would like to hear the opinion of any person of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander descent (basically anyone with a direct interest) add to the discussion. By the way, censorship of Wikipedia was NEVER MENTIONED Shiftaling 15:13, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes JSIN Aboriginal people do have certain sensitivities. We have every right in this world to. We have had to conform to so much alien justification for the past 218 years. Give us some cultural credibility. Didj man 13:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Black people

Please see Talk:Black_people#POV and the discussion about whether Indigenous Australians are black people or not. --Ezeu 07:43, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer Ezeu, the odd point of view being debated there seems to have landed here, with the following paragraph being inserted:

Because they have very dark skin, Australian Aboriginals are sometimes confused with Blacks, but genetic studies reveal that Australian Aboriginals and Africans are among the least related populations in the world

For obvious reasons, I think this line should be removed. Dougg 23:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The only relevant thing I can think of is that some Aboriginal people refer to themselves as "black". Which is a linguistic difference between here and America I guess? Snipergirl 16:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The term 'black' is not used to refer exclusively to people from (or derived from) Africa--throughout the world it's used to refer to people with relatively darker skin. In the USA of course the predominant 'black' population is people who originate from Africa, so of course the term 'black' when used there typically refers to such people (so I guess someone from the USA could come to think of this as the sole correct usage of the term). But in other countries where there are dark-skinned people who are not from Africa, the term 'black' is used to refer to them. So it is legitimate to call Australian Aboriginal people 'blacks' (whether or not it's polite is another question, but I know many Aboriginal people who quite happily refer to themselves as black). This is not a matter of 'confusion' and has nothing to do with genetics. Dougg 00:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

"Blacks" is a derogatory terminology discribing certain people as enemies of the white race. As Aboriginal people, we are insulted by this term. This is seen as a form of insult when used by non-Aboriginal people.Didj man 13:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

But many people use the term 'black fella' don't they to refer to A&TSIers as a whole? Ashmoo 00:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Not sure who "many people" might be - not ever in my hearing - needs to be referenced.--Arktos ^talk 00:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I was speaking informally, in response to the previous poster. I'm from QLD and have hears Murris use the term (and 'white fella') many times. But you're right, anything that actually goes into the article itself needs to be referenced. That goes for all sides of the discussion. Ashmoo 01:55, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Racism

While it is reasonable to assume you will find elements of racism pretty much anywhere towards anyone (particularly a minority), I don't accept POV such as "there remains the issue of incipient racism" without solid representation in the literature and no independant research. It's just too important an issue to have lying around begging the question Rpf 15:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Btw: Incipient means emerging/appearing. Something that remains doesn't emerge. Rpf 15:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. This article while generally pretty good, is plagued with unsourced 'analysis' of the problems facing Aboriginal Australians. I put the tags on a while ago, and I think they expiring date on providing sources is up. Ashmoo 06:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission published pretty extensively on racism in Australia, so provinding a fairly accurate description of racism in Australia should be possible. Racism. No Way. lists these publications as good sources.--Peta 07:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Matter of fact: I grew up under the Bjelke-Petersen regime in Queensland. I know what it is like to be different "because your black". I know what it feels like not be served in the shop "because your black". Until you can walk in my skin, you can't understand how that feels. Racism really hasn't changed much, it has just changed it's tactics. NOBODY can tell me I'm equal in this country until I have the same common-law rights to my land as every white hereditary title holder.

State of Aborigines today

While good, the article tends to provide a view of Aborigines that is true for only a small proportion. While outlining the traditional ways of life is very important, the article tends to ignore the reality of modern Aborigines. ie. Live in urban areas, follow Christian beliefs in line with the majority culture etc. Ashmoo 07:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The article would be better without any sweeping generalisations. --bainer (talk) 07:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Whoops. I meant to say 'the majority of modern Aborigines'. Ashmoo 23:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

This article contains too many errors to be useful. Glossing over Aboriginal crime issues isn't useful, nor are the erroneous statements about the history of Aboriginal art. There are simply too many errors to even grade the quality of information at 'B'.

Find someone aboriginal to write this article or at least someone who wants to be accurate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.158.51.58 (talk • contribs) .

I'm interested to know what the 'erroneous statements about the history of Aboriginal art.' in this article are. While it's a very brief summary, it looks pretty accurate to me. Dougg 23:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Contact with Austronesians

Regards the following statement in the article:

Linguistic and genetic evidence shows that there has been long-term contact between Australians in the far north and the Austronesian peoples of modern-day New Guinea and the islands, but that this appears to have been due mostly to trade and some intermarriage.

I'm certain that this is incorrect, certainly as far as linguistic evidence goes, and probably also as regards the genetic evidence. Is there a reference that makes this claim? If not I'll be removing it. Dougg 23:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

'Blacks' and Australian Aborigines

The comment about 'Blacks' and Aust. Aborigines seems out place in the introduction. Is this, which is a debunking of an 'urban myth' really so important that it needs to be in the intro? Additionally, it contains no cite for the assertion that it is commonly believed. Thirdly, Black has no universally agreed upon technical definition and it is a colloquial term. My impression is that Black in the US refers to people of African descent, while in Australia the term (much less used in that context) more often refers to anyone with dark skin. Ashmoo 03:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree - it's quite odd in the intro. It possibly belongs in the Definitions section to explain the Australian usage and sensitivities of the term, as it appears different to other uses. --Scott Davis ^Talk 12:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

"Blacks" is a derogatory terminology discribing certain people as enemies of the white race. As Aboriginal people, we are insulted by this term. This is seen as a form of insult when used by non-Aboriginal people.Knight crawler 12:38, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Mediocre article; Causes of death

This article, while not mentioning eg Colin Tatz´s "Aboriginal Suicide is Different" (2001, 2005)conversely manages to quote almost nothing written on Aborigines before 1999 and adopts the familiar post-1980 PC, finger-wagging tone while giving few or no citations. The role of land-as-religion/Alcheringa pre-1788 is massively understated (is every Wikipedia writer an atheist or agnostic who cannot imagine religion?) and causes of death in nomadic hunter-gatherer Australian society are suppressed. Further, the male-female inequality of that society is whitewashed, presumably for obsessive fear of "racism". Note that women had no choice, there was arranged marriage as evidenced at least for the tribes mentioned by Kenneth Maddock "The Australian Aborigines" (1974).

This seems to be because the romantic pre-Lapsarian, Golden Age (cf.Hesiod) yearning of post-Leftist, identity politics-type, Anglo pre-historians/anthropologists leads to them ignoring: abortion, infanticide, cannibalism, warfare and geriatricide as adaptively necessary behaviours among nomadic hunter-gatherers in Australia. Underlying this is the conflict outlined by Steven Pinker (2002) in "Blank Slate", ie the politics of the 21st century observer dictates what gets said and written about pre-1788.

For Australian Aborigines, all of the above were observed by European observers (biassed!male!white!British!Christian!anti-Condoleeza Rice!) separately or as clusters in some bands at some time in the 19th century: see G Blainey, "Triumph of the Nomads", 1976, for the primary 19th century sources.

The fear, in the frantic moralistic jockeying for the tenurable financial favour of research-grant dispensing and career-making govt. and university bureaucrats - seems to be that eg indigenous legal rights in USA/Canada/Australia are somehow endangered if you give an unvarnished account of pre-invasion societies. But there is no logical connection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.134.80.12 (talk) 18 August 2006

• If you have all these refs then use them. Get off your behind and right instead of just cshallowly criticise. Please dont let up will you. And please get a wikipedian username so we can all argue out a mass edited consensus article. And sarcasm whilst often self-gratifieing may often mutual communication. Eric A. Warbuton 06:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Land Rights/Disputes

Why doesn't this article include a section on land rights under the "issues facing indigenous Australian's today" section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.28.248.252 (talk)