Talk:Surrealism/Archive 9

The Talk:Surrealism discussion page has been archived 9 times.

• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 1 - until Sep 17 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 2 - until Sep 28 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 3 - until Oct 13 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 4 - until Nov 11 2004
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 5 - until Jan 25 2005
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 6 - until Aug 06 2005
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 7 - until Sep 03 2006
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 8 - until Sep 29 2006
• Talk:Surrealism/Archive 9 - until Mar 03 2007

If you wish to reply to something that was said in an archived comment, please copy the relevant text to the current talk page rather than editing the archives.

Archive 7

New archive at Talk:Surrealism/Archive_07. Please keep the posts on topic. Thanks. --HappyCamper 05:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Than you Happy Camper! Yes, that last bunch was really not on topic. In any case, the article looks ok so far. Surrealism of the 21st century is still fresh, and I can see some growth to the article in the next few years. Fortunately, the political aspect of it has run its course last century and now surrealism is strictly an art movement, but an exciting and evolving one.

As for the vestigial remains of the political aspect, FR and his followers, being concerned about non-whites, I could recommend that they join the NAACP or give to the United Negro College Fund. This would go a long way toward equalizing the playing field. Society has a long way to go, and I am personally for anything that gives all men and women the freedom to be what they want to be in a free society. We do not need dictators like FR who want to divide people and create dissention.

I should point out that the Asians and the Indians and the Middle Easterners are not particularly intimidated by the European “White Race.” They have all had great empires and will again. FR is simply trying to use non-whites in the West for his own obscure purpose. I do not see it working, because non-whites are pretty sharp about that kind of manipulation.

The white Euro-Americans have done some bad things, of course, such as planting a Jewish state in the middle of the Islamic nations. That was a clever thing to do to have an intelligent zealous anti-Islamic military nation to keep the oil rich countries disorganized so we could control them. Unfortunately for us it is uniting Islam instead! However, in the past, Islam, China and Japan have used similar methods of deceit to control their empires, so do not say that only white people use such methods.

It was also clever of the Euro-Americans, after abandoning colonies in Africa, to kindly supply arms equally to opposing military juntas. First, we make money by selling arms. Second, by being fair and equal to both sides, they will wear themselves down to a vestigial, starving disorganized mess, and we can then come to give hem aid and help them develop their resources once more as we have always done.

Anyway, let’s get on to the task at hand and promote surrealism as what it is today, an art movement, with no leaders, except those who help promote the genre for everybody's benefit.Surreal-one 14:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Jacques Derrida would have made a great surrealist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specters_of_Marx Classicjupiter2 17:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Black Surrealism: Negritude

So please comment here on the new section on Black Surrealism and Negritude, looking at Aime Cesaire and Franz Fanon. Fanon believed that such "cultural errors," as racism, could be corrected because racism is not a psychological law (1967a, 202). The psychology of racism is caused by "Negroes being exploited, enslaved, despised by colonialist capitalist society. That is only accidentally white" (1967a, 202). But he also insisted that negritude's subjective dialectic, as a reaction of the black within that accident, has a life of its own. Although a racial essentialism, established by Senghor or more specifically, if we accept René Menil's argument, established by Sartre's Orphée Noir (Richardson and Fijalkowsi 1996, 9) came to dominate negritude, Césaire's negritude as a form of black surrealism should not be overlooked.(FN2) A surrealism, Michael Richardson and Krzystof Fijalkowsi argue in Refusal of the Shadow, that is a critique of dominant cultural and social processes. Here, they add, a distinction should be made between "surrealism as living cultural praxis ... and as dead cultural artifact" (1996, 11). Like surrealism, négritude should also be seen in the context of the "lived experience of the black." During the war years, surrealism became synonymous in Martinique with the revolutionary opposition to the war. Kesteloot insists that it "was the only possible solution at the time for the cultural alienation of Martinique." " Poetry," Césaire argued, "equalled insurrection" (Kesteloot 1974, 256-60). Césaire's poetry remained a powerful metaphoric force for Fanon, but for a political/philosophic methodology, Fanon looked elsewhere. As David Caute has put it, Its emphasis on spontaneity and the unconscious, as well as involvement with metaphysics and the irrational, linked it to bohemian revolt rather than to any historically concrete theory of social change. (Caute 1970, 20) 62.25.106.209 09:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks like an interesting addition. But kindly also leave my own comments on this talk page, at least as a balanced counter-position. Thank you.

Just to point out, what you are putting in as Black Surrealism has to do with 20th century black politics, which has adopted a "white" and "Western" idea. It has no relevance to 21st century surrealism, which has evolved into something else. id est, an art movement. That Black Surrealism has adopted a White idea is not bad. It is difficult not to be influenced by White Western ideas. All cultures that have become "world-beaters" have adopted the best of other cultures and prevailed in building great nations or empires. Russia loved French culture. "French style" is the predominant fashion style of palaces all over Africa, and South America, and, of course, Europe. The Mercedes 3 liter saloon, after WWII, was the preferred car of diplomats and dictators world-wide. It is hard to ignore great ideas from the White Western world. The question is, if you adopt White ideas, are you assimilated? Are you now "White" since, according to FR, Whiteness is only an idea, a way of thinking, an attitude of superiority toward non-white humans? Surreal-one 14:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, are the Chinese "White" because they have an attitude of racial and cultural superiority. They are very paitient and believe that they merely have to wait until the Dragon awakes once more to devour the world? Are the Black Muslims "White" for the same reason?Surreal-one 15:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

And mine too! "The term "Negritude," a common 19th century term, referring to "blackness," was also used by American Benjamin Rush, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and early abolitionist, to describe a hypothetical hereditary disease which he believed to be the cause of 'blackness'."Brunhilda 14:27, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I have added a section on Surrealism in Politics to complement and balance the sections on Art. 195.92.40.49 15:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but could you please check your spelling and grammar once moreSurreal-one 15:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanx have done a spell check. Your confusion around the physical and psychical states of blackness and whiteness is understandable. Checkout the Talk:Black people entry to see just how bad the problem is! In fact I think that maybe instead of 'Black Surrealism' a better title for this section would be political surrealism or for this section to be incorporated into the surrealism and politics or a revolutionary surrealism section... 62.25.106.209 15:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Add Robin D.G. Kelley as well to the Surrealism article!

I am all for it! I am the one who originally added Aime Cesaire and Rene Menil to the article two years ago into the article, the addition of them regarding their great surrealist publication TROPIQUES. I think it would be a great idea to add some more of our African-American Surrealist Comrades to the article, especially Robin D.G. Kelley, who I greatly admire! Black Surrealism is Surrealism!!! Don't forget an addition on the connections between Surrealism and the Labor Movement as well!Classicjupiter2 15:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Check this out for the addition too, http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/52/1/27 Classicjupiter2 15:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

A good idea regarding Aime Cesaire is to touch on CLR James as well.Classicjupiter2 16:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Also a mention of Albert Memmi along with Cesaire as well.Classicjupiter2 16:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Please made additions as you see fit, although maybe the negritude and the politics sections should be combined into a Proletarian Surrealism section? 195.92.40.49 10:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I think a seperate Proletarian Surrealism passage is cool, lets see how that develops. We need solid resources, I am into it.Classicjupiter2 00:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the 'Black Surrealism' and Negritude is a great addition to the article, well done!Classicjupiter2 00:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

BRAVE DESTINY and SURREALISM IN THE 21st CENTURY

Its great to see the article shaping up with fairness to all additons made (including 'Black Surrealism' and Negritude) in the article!!! NOW, I think its also a good idea for a passage or section on BRAVE DESTINY and/or SURREALISM IN THE 21st CENTURY, or just BRAVE DESTINY, which was the LARGEST SURREALISM SHOW in the HISTORY of the ARTS! 500plus! Let me know. What do you think, Surreal-one?Classicjupiter2 00:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear Classic, Although Brave Destiny was, and probably will remain, the largest and most glorious surrealist show ever throughout the 21st century, and although the New International Surrealist Manifesto represents that, and both have been touted in the highest circles of the mainstream art world as well as at major universities, yet…it is absolutely unnecessary to be included in the article. The mystery is that all of the self-promotion in the article, such as CSG, is seen as just that… self-promotion. It means nothing to the real history of surrealism as the major art movement and philosophical idea of the 21st century. As long as CSG, FR and followers make an “ass” of the movement in this article and on BLOG sites around the world, it is better not to be associated with them in any large sense. Just leave the mention of Brave Destiny in the article as it is. That is fair and does everything necessary.

When CSG, FR, and followers get their heads screwed on right, and this is doubtful since FR has been ruining himself for 40 years as a poor thinker (and strategist), then the article can be polished. Right now it is an interesting article since it covers some material not found in other texts, but not especially influential to the 21st century surrealism as a movement. According to TL, “The idea of revolution as a philosophical idea is the important issue to surrealism in the 21st century, and that is purely philosophical. The practical application of notions of surrealism as revolution in society is secondary and has nothing to do with the pure idea of surrealism, which must be taken from Breton and yet improved since he was ‘rolling in the mud with a bunch of socialists.’ Essentially we have reached a point in the dialectic when the dross (ideas revolving around Marxism, capitalism, racism, Negritudism, etc.) must burn away leaving only the pure idea of surrealism as “a method and a way, like Zen or the mysticism of the Kabala”. ..a tool as it were, perhaps the ultimate tool.” Fr and his followers are vestigial dinosaurs. Fascinating that they continue after their world has shriveled around them.

FR, CSG and the little one-person surrealist groups are not especially relevant. If they wish to list themselves in the article, it merely demeans the article, it does not elevate THEM. The problem for” them,” as “the Other,” is that it does nothing for them to be in the article. It would probably elevate the article and make FR & CSG more important to the 21st C. to expand it to include Brave Destiny and TR’s NISM. Amusing, is it not, that they become more important to the degree that they include their enemies in the article? It is an old idea “you are measured by the importance of your enemies.” In truth, it is whether you are respected and talked about in the higher intellectual circles and the arts that make you important. FR and followers may feel good at seeing themselves in the article here, but these are illusions of importance. Important writers and scholars generally ignore them. Let them dream!

Ps: You might want to ask 62.25.106.209 for that mysterious picture of FR with Breton. His style of writing resembles that of the “Great Buffoon.” But remember a picture of somebody with somebody does not prove anything about inheriting a legacy.Surreal-one 13:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

WATCH OUT: 62.25.106.209 is pulling a swindle

Look at his recent change to the article. He is associating Black Surrealism with Proletariat Surrealism. That would mean that the working class and Black surrealism are brothers and the same movement. 62.25.106.209 is a snake in your midst. It is up to you whether through perfidy that HE domnates the article. And, remember, he also has his proxies.The working class "Proletariat" includes white separatists as well as everybody else not associated with Black Surrealism in particular. The prols are those who work and do not own, the vast majority of the human population not particularly wanting to be associated with "Black Surrealism." . Therefore, it is illogical to mix the two as brothers. National Socialism is also a movement of the Prols and has just as much right to be included in that section as members of the Proletariat and revolutionaries. Therefore, include the Nazis, or change the headingSurreal-one 13:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh dear, the return of the paranoic surreal-onical method. Although i think you are right about not confusing black and proletariat surrealism. this is sensitive ground and we will need to dwell on this longer before deciding which way to move things. for now i am thinking that 'revolutionary' and 'anticolonial' surrealism can be part of the 'politics' section with a seperate section for 'black' surrealism. however the problem is about whether to organise the article chronologically or chromatically 62.25.106.209 15:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You spelling is mightily peculiar! With your fractured following of not very poertical poets, I think you could try harder!Surreal-one 15:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

PS: Your redundancy in calling something "revolutionary surrealism," if that is what you intend (or am I misreading it?), is rather odd. "Surrealism is the essence and the perfection of revolution," according to TL," but not at its crux "social," excepting to the degree that dialectic requires a social element of opposing ideas of interactive individuals or groups. As a methd it can be applied to social revolution, but "social revolution" and "surrealism" are not synonymous."Surreal-one 15:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

so wot do u think of my latest additions to the criticism section? also i am sure u will be thrilled to know that i saw a copy of ARSENAL 1 and 2 last night. Issue 2 has a great Martinique surrealists manifesto from the early 30s as well as an analytical introduction written by Charles Radcliffe. Not to worry i will add references to the article soooooooooon.... 195.92.40.49 11:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

The Manifesto of the Martinique Surrealists from the 1930's along with Aime Cesaire and Rene Menil's brilliant work (and Negritude) should be mentioned in the article, but please spare us the, "Reference" that you intend to use; since Rosemont's bogus publication from the late 60's and early 70's, "Arsenal" only reproduced it, which anyone could and can do. What does a fraud like Rosemont have anything to do with the Martinique Surrealists is beyond me? Rosemont has this long history of attaching his name to anything Surrealism-related from the past, but none of the Martinique Surrealists were active, (as a group, that is) in the 60's and 70's, though little few were individually active as far as theoretical contributions and sporadic essays until their deaths. Aime really did abandon Surrealism for a Political Agenda, but he never completely abandoned Surrealism from his thought. Rosemont, Radcliffe, etc., and other comrades have a very impressive resume of activities in 60's Radicalism, and no denying that Rosemont IS an Expert on the History of the Labor Movements in the USA, I commend him for that, but I do think he is a fraud when it comes to Surrealism. His output was way too sporadic and weak to place himself as the ICON of Surrealism in the USA that he alleges to be, even when he attempts to provide references as well.Classicjupiter2 00:49, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is a Tip on How to become Important to Easily Fooled Hoi Poloi

Publish your silly ideas, even if only a few copies off your computer. Establish a name for the publisher such as "Pink Swan Press." Go to Wikipedia and establish your credntials as a writer and scholar, since you are referenced by your own publications. If Rosemont can do it, so can YOU!!!

You can also:

1) Form not-for-profit organization if you have a couple of friends.

2) Get a website, or a free page on some existing web-site

3) get your publications an ISBN to make them credible

4) Get your publications listed all over the internet

5) Form more than one publishing "company." For example, Black Swan and Charles Kerr are essentially the same. You might be able to pick up the "name" of a publisher who has been credibly active but who went bankrupt. Or get a "similar name that confuses people like "Simeon & Shuuster." Most publishing companies fail. The ones that succeed are usually supported by a parent company in another business that is highly profitable.

If you need more advice, just inquire from this Talk-surreal page. You too can be a fraud like Rosemont, and for very little expense.Surreal-one 14:33, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Its amazing how Franklin Rosemont can get away with hijacking Surrealism for so long without anyone really calling his bluff on it, you know? For decades, this self-promoter of Surrealism in the USA, has been promoting this Radicalized-Marxist Revolution with very little output. There is NO visual material to go on either, on his website, SURREALISM IN THE USA. It burns me that Pathfinder Press, a legitimate major subsidiary publishing house was duped into letting Rosemont be the main editor for Andre Breton's WHAT IS SURREALISM? Granted, Rosemont, with his unquestionable love of Surrealism, did a great job in gathering material, various surrealist documents that went under the radar for years, but he completely ruined the historical accuracy of the book, by placing him and his, "group's" material in there as well!!! Roger Shattuck, the art critic of the NY TIMES, back in 1972, called Rosemont and his group on their bluff, really no one else has until now. Granted, I can give this man credit for his passion for Surrealism, but he keeps on injecting this Communist-slant into his own take on the movement. Granted, Karl Marx, was and is, a major influence on Surrealism, that is not to be debated, I greatly admire Marx for his analysis and critique on Capitalism, (what economist hasn't?), but to keep going on and on, about this Revolution according to Franklin Rosemont is just total nonsense, nobody legitimate is buying into it. Yet, Franklin Rosemont and his stooges, want you to believe that the only Surrealism is the Surrealism according to the doctrine of Franklin Rosemont, as ordained unto him by Andre Breton, WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE???? Its a scam. Pure and Simple. You wonder why established and respected scholars like Prof.Mary Ann Caws and Dawn Ades NEVER mention Rosemont in any of their research? Plus the FACT that there is NO VISUAL Material to go on, at Rosemont's own website.Classicjupiter2 14:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, as P.T. Barnum said,"There's a sucker born every moment." It was easy for many demagogues to get followers. There are a lot of unhappy people with no direction out there. With a little flim flam you can get people to believe anything...even that flyting saucers are coming to save a few of the human race and that you must give up all your money to such and such organization to become members of the cult that will taken away to a better world (a very real recent scam).Surreal-one 15:41, 9 September 2006 (UTC)