Talk:Messiah (Handel)

The correct title for this oratorio is not The Messiah, but simply Messiah.

See:

http://www.hartfordchorale.org/Messiah.htm http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/handel_messiah.html http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/handel/messiah/mozart.html

Alright. Now to be even more nitpicky, there are three links to "The Messiah" instead of "Messiah". But it's your call.

Links adjusted too, Sbuckley. Alas, we can't do much about the main title as there is already an article called simply "Messiah". Tannin

I took out some "the"s in the text. It's now more correct but possibly odder-looking. I sort of like it like that but am not sure. Discussion please? Nevilley 08:55 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)

Not quite Nevilley. Think about it: we want to talk about Beethoven's 5th symphony. So we say: "My favourite symphony is the fifth." Or we love Wagner, so we say "I have always dreamed about conducting the Ring Cycle. The "the"s in this entry, in other words, belong to the sentences, rather than to the title of the work. In short: "I love the Messiah is wrong" (because it's simply called "Messiah") and "I love Messiah" is wrong (because it's ungrammatical), but "I love the Messiah" is correct.

Err .... at least I think so. I'm much better at hearing something and working out if it's correct or not than I am at getting at those formal rules of grammar locked up somewhere inside my head. In other words, I've boldly reverted you but I'm not 100% sure. Any others have a view on this? Tannin

I am not sure that your examples work, but the trouble is we all have The Messiah - just like that, italics and all, in our ears so firmly that anything else is hard to grasp. The example of the 5th symphony doesn't work because it is just a description of what it is - it has no name, with or without the, so yes, it's the fifth! Now, then, how about this: "My favourite overture is Leonore." or this: "I have always dreamed about conducting the Ring Cycle." - well, sure it's a cycle about The Ring, so it's the Ring Cycle ... Der Ring des Nibelungen (The Ring) - "The" is part of the title - but if we try again and say: "I have always dreamed about conducting Siegfried or Manon Lescaut or The Barber of Seville - we need a The when it's in the title, otherwise we don't. Now, it doesn't really matter and is not going to cure cancer and I don't want to fight. But if we suspect, as I do, that the more correct usage is to have no The, that it is not the same as "The Fifth Symphony" etc, then maybe as an encylopedia we should do it in what may be the right way, even if it does not initially sound right. I found that fact, which I had not realised, that it really is called Messiah and not The Messiah, to be one of those OohNotManyPeopleKnowThat moments which are nice to find in an encyclopedia. I think Messiah has a dramatic power to it and The Messiah sounds like it has been tamed by a choral society, and that we should be brave and use the right title. But, as I say, I have no stomach for a big fight, and will shut up now. :) Nevilley 16:09 Mar 12, 2003 (UTC)

Me neither Nevilley! I don't think we are going to need nuclear weapons for this one. :) Notice that it was me that pulled the "thes" out of the italicised titles, so I'm with you on this one in all but the final details. Tannin

POV much? Could somebody who knows something about this try to make it not quite so fan-pageish? -- Zoe

Where's the POV? It makes a series of statements about the popularity of the work, which is very great, and of relevance to its entry in an encyclopedia. I don't think any of those statements are untrue and I don't think they have to have been written by a fan. I don;t think they are expressed in a way which makes it sound like Wikiepedia's view is that it is wonderful music; merely that Wikipedia knows that it is very very popular music - a fact. I'd be interested to see a proposed rewrite which you feel would be less POV, but I have to say I do not see a problem with this page. Nevilley 08:09 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)

Well I'm here. Someone who knows a bit about Messiah. And I've looked the entry over. And there ain't nuffin "fan-pageish" about it. The only thing I question is the "usage" note at the bottom, as it seems a bit too prominent. Oh, and that perhaps we are being a little too restrained. After all, this is only the most-performed classicial vocal music in the world. Tannin

I've demoted "Usage" from a subheader to just a bold word at the start of the para. Any better? I do feel the note should stay in, but I certainly agree that it does need need huge prominence! Nevilley 10: 06 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)

I felt the same - didn't want to delete it but felt it looked out of place. Much improved now. Tannin

OK and thanks. Nevilley 12:28 Mar 16, 2003 (UTC)

The entire first paragraph reeks of POV. -- Zoe

Not this problem of saying when something is "famous" again? -- Tarquin 00:19 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)

Reeks? How? Let's look at it, shall we? One part at a time.

Handel's oratorio Messiah So far so good. Handel wrote it, it's an oratorio, its name is "Messiah". I'm struggling to find the POV here.
is his most famous work Yup, that's right. By far the most famous of Handel's works, as a matter of fact. Refer to any dictionary or encyclopedia of classical music, or see below.
approached only by his Water Music Yup. That's just about the only other Handel work that is particularly well-known these days. Again, refer to any reputable source.
and remains a firm favourite with concert goers to this day. Again, simple truth. The Messiah is usually cited as the single most-performed classical work of any played today. Are you trying to tell me that the #1 most often played work in the whole of classical music is disliked by concert-goers? That the thousands to pay to see it each year don't like it? What a crock.
Any modern listing of the most often performed classical works must include Messiah, and may well be topped by it. What I just said, though it might be better to cut out the "may well be" - that is rather over-cautious.
although the text is devoted to resurrection and salvation Try reading the libretto. Any single page will do, it's all resurection and salvation. Mostly modified Old Testament verses, as a matter of fact.
since Handel's death He really is dead. you can trust me on this.
it has become traditional to perform the Messiah at Christmas Check your local concert calender. Check a few other concert calenders. Check as many as you like. It's sometimes done at other times of year, but mostly at Christmas.
rather than at Easter It was written and first performed as an Easter work.

In a word, Tarquin, it's not one of those "is this famous" difficulties. Often we need to make a judgement of some kind, make a "how famous is famous" decision, but in the case of this work we can simply note that it gets played moe often than anything else in classical music - it puts more bums on seats - and there is absolutely no need to make a judgement call. Tannin

I'm the one with the problems, not Tarquin. -- Zoe