Talk:Ozymandias
Judging from the history, the justification for double irony is:
(1) Suppose the inscription had been "Ner-ner-ner. Look how good I am." There would be irony, since the statue NOW shows how far he's fallen - no-one even remembers him.
(2) In addition to that, the phrasing of the inscription now suggests the meaning "You should despair because one day you, too, shall be dust."
I'm not sure if I agree or not. However, I think everyone agrees on the interpretations, just whether or not to use the term "double irony". I suggest re-writing it to make the point without enumerating the number of ironies?
(Jack)
Hello, yet another question -- I agree that there is irony in "Ozymandias", but the "double irony" seems clearly a personal interpretation. The text at present reads
- So "the mighty" should despair not as Ozymandias intended, but because they will share his fate of inevitable oblivion in the sands of time.
Whether the mighty should despair, or for what reason, seems simply irrelevant. -- I guess what we need to do here is consult some standard English literature refs and see what they say about the poem; I could write down something, but it would be open to the same "personal opinion" criticism. Here, as elsewhere in WP, we need to stick to reportage instead of essay. Thoughts? Happy editing, Wile E. Heresiarch 17:17, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
Hello again -- this time a quick question about formatting. I like the way the article has a text box on one side and a photo on the other. But the heading "Sources" is caught between them (at least, as the page is rendered at the resolution my browser has). Is there a way to cause "Sources" to go under the text box? I was tinkering with throwing in <br>'s but that probably would stop working if something got rearranged a little. Happy editing, Wile E. Heresiarch 21:24, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- That sounds like one of those things that depends very much on your browser, font size, screen res, etc. -- very difficult to lay out a page to please everyone. I've just moved the poem box over to the right side: at least that'll keep a constant flow of text down the left-hand side of the page, perhaps avoid the staggering effect you describe. Please revert or tweak at will (nb: the poem box could still be pulled up a paragraph to give more room for the break). –Hajor 21:42, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I'm thinking it would be a good idea to paste in the text of the poem, since it is quite short, and the discussion of the finer points of the text is a little obscure without the text at hand. Any comments? Happy editing, Wile E. Heresiarch 17:51, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I'm torn. We normally avoid posting the entire source text (sooner or later someone says we can't understand France without the text of the French constitution in the article, that sort of thing), but in this case it might be justified. We do have an external link to the poem.....do you feel that's not enough. I don't think the discussion gets too far into the finer points, but I can understand this benefitting......I'm afraid I'm not much help, am I? Well, I wouldn't revert if you posted it. But I think if you do post it, add more discussion of the text that makes it obvious that the poem is needed so that the discussion makes sense. That's my suggestion, anyhow. Jwrosenzweig 17:54, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. I think I'll go ahead and post the text. A precedent is that the text of Yeat's poem The Second Coming survived VfD. I do understand the point about the French Constitution, but I believe there is a stronger case for quoting a famous sonnet. Well, I'll run it up the flag pole and see if anyone reverts. Happy editing, Wile E. Heresiarch 19:51, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Heh, looking at the article history I see that the poem text has been added and deleted before -- well, it should stay this time. Wile E. Heresiarch 20:30, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I wrote the initial entry for this page way back when. In the original I wrote:
- The impact of the sonnet's message comes from its double irony. The tyrant declares, "Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Yet nothing remains of Ozymandias' works but the shattered fragments of his statue. So "the mighty" should not despair as Ozymandias intended. And yet they should indeed despair because they will share his fate of inevitable oblivion in the sands of time.
Someone changed the last sentence to:
- So "the mighty" should despair not as Ozymandias intended, but because they will share his fate of inevitable oblivion in the sands of time.
Unfortunately, this somewhat obscures the point about the double irony.
Then someone appended the following:
- To provide a dissenting opinion, it can also be interpreted that the words were crafted specifically for the traveler, rather than the visiting rivals of Ozymandias. It's not as if he's saying "Neener neener neener, I'm more mighty than you," but rather, "You who think you are mighty: see the fate of one who was at least as great, and despair." By this interpretation, Ozymandias had the same wisdom (although not the same acceptance of his fate) as Solomon when he received his engraved ring ("this too shall pass").
- Shelley never specifically states that Ozymandias was a tyrant (which would imply he was ignorant of certain principles). He simply said that Ozymandias had a frown, and wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command. All these because he's majorly pissed off that his empire can't last forever, and he wants to give all future generations a reality check, because if he can't be content in his success, why should they?
"Someone Else" removed the dissenting opinion, with the following comment:
- "dissenter" needs to read the poem, paying attention to where the inscription ends and the narration begins, as Ozymandias clearly was saying Neener.
The "dissenter" restored the dissenting opinion, with the following comment:
- Someone Else needs to re-read poem, also needs to realize that either all opinion stays within the entry or none does. Shouldn't let Reiman and Powers think for you.
"Someone Else" again removed the dissenting opinion, with the following comment:
- reverting untenable interpretation
By the time you read this, the dissenting opinion may be back in the main page. But I'm hoping that all parties might be satisfied by a discussion here on the talk page.
Speaking for myself, I also believe that the interpretation suggested in the "dissenting opinion" is untenable. First, the inscription on the pedestal was an original part of the monument, inscribed at the time the statue was erected, long before it had fallen into decay. So it could not have been intended to refer to the impermanence of power. That is the sonnet's point, but it is made possible only through the double irony created by the juxtaposition of the original proud words and the eventual pitiful ruins. Second, the "sneer of cold command" clearly is a representation of a tyrant's attitude, and can hardly be read as indicating disappointment in the impermanence of empire. It serves to reinforce the arrogant tone of the inscription.
Also, I should note the Reiman and Powers was the source of the text of the sonnet, not the point about the double irony. That was my own observation (which I thought fairly obvious).
- HWR
Smith's Poem
I'm making the following changes:
1 - Changed the lines quoted from Smith's poem to:
We wonder,—and some Hunter may express Wonder like ours, when thro' the wilderness Where London stood, holding the Wolf in chace, He meets some fragment huge, and stops to guess What powerful but unrecorded race Once dwelt in that annihilated place.
Because these are the actual lines that conclude the poem - not the ones which are currently there (follow the link to check).
2 - Changed the comparison with Smith's poem.
The above sestet draws a fairly specific moral.
3 - Reordered text
To take the scattered pieces of information and try to format them more like an inverted pyramid Number 0 01:52, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)