Talk:Antisemitism

general ranting space

why?! Who cares? What percentage do Jews occupy in the world's population? What about anti-Sino-ism? Sinophobia is the illness American "elites" are now contracting. Why should there be so much space allocated to the non-issue issue, and yes, all disclamers notwithstanding the Jews don't have a monopoly on Semitic race.

Besides, if there is anti-Semitism, then there should be Semitism (analogy to fascism/antifascism, communism/anticommunism), so what is that Semitism thing?

1.Who cares? Jews care. Human rights groups (should) care.Small population doesn;t mean they don;t count any more than anybody else. Plus, history of anti-Semitism has scholarly interest.

2.There is no such thing as "Semitic Race". Anti-Semitism is NOT an antonym of "Semitism". In that way the term can be misleading. In on itself, anti-Aemitism doesn't mean anything, but for various historical reasons it has become to mean hatred for Jews. All this is explained in the article so please read it.Hkelkar 15:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

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Supposed abuse of the term "Anti-Semitism" Etymology and usage issues Etymology (complete) See also: Talk:Anti-Zionism

Underlying causes

It would be helpful if the article attempted to explain the underyling reasons for anti-semitism. Why have jews been persecuted in so many different places and at different times? Surely there must be some established theories for this.

I'll break them down for you.

1) Religious: a Jew, by accepting the preconditions of his faith, essentially asserts that the basic tenets of Christianity are false. Most religious dogmas negate the philosophies of the others, but Judaism is in direct disagreement with Christianity's most fundamental attributes (Christ). In some faiths, Jews have it "wrong" and similarly, they are the enemy. Each says they have the answers and right way of life. As the self-assumed "Chosen", elected by God to be his representatives, Jews make a statement - intended or not. Also, as most religions look for converts, Judaism is somewhat expansionist and like others, aggressive (Christianity, Islam) where aspects of good and evil, part of the "law of God" trumps what we would universal humanitarianism (for example, there are some very interesting words in the Torah about what should be done to the polytheistic, "unworthy" of life).

2)Cultural: The "answers" of Jewish faith include laws and practices that others may disagree with, or vice versa. For example, the Germans and the Jews had very different views about livestock ("holiness" of pigs, in particular) and debt - not to give the impression that the two groups were completely at odds, but things like this certainly contribute, especially when livestyles remain the same over time and "identity nationalism" later surfaces.

3)Unrooted status: Likewise, the Jew's formerly unrooted status as a culture without a homeland deserves attention - not only because immigrants of all types have had it rough, but the Jew, especially at such early times in history, stands out. They relied on one another, stuck to themselves, maintained their Jewish lifestyle and their success made people suspicious. Historically, they never completely "assimilated", a great detail that many of us would never be able to understand having lived now. Being of minority status, and with suspicions already in place, makes one more likely to be a scapegoat - especially if they look incredibly "foreign", especially in an era where "migration" was more likely to be an barbarous excursion (ie the Huns). In other words, it didn't happen often.

4)Success: Jealously explains a lot (some Jewish authors dissecting anti-Semitism can get presumptuous on this one). Their value system and way of life HAS yielded success in living standards, and a number of successful, world-contributing individuals were Jews. The "pulled ourselves up by our own bootstraps" view is not without it flaws though - it certainly doesn't hurt that one job particularly available to early European Jews involved money (because it was a taboo in the Christian world to touch) which gave them a good start, especially since they aim to help one another which has led to relative success as a group. And coincidently, its been a double edged sword, a blessing and a burden that enhanced suspicions, aided animosity due to 1 thru 3, and of course, came into play with conspiracy theories.

This is just a start, but if you're new to this, hope that helps. There are a large variety of sources that cover such material. All four of these factors working together at different times pretty much explains anti-Semitism.--Hohns3 05:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

That seems useful, why not edit this into the article and see if it sticks.

The interesting thing about all those statements, are that they are all debatable. On anti-Semitism, and everyone, even experts in the field, seem to have their own theories. Masterhomer File:Yin yang.png 03:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This posting is somewhat uninformed. Some corrections :

1. Expansionist and aggressive? Judaism is one of the only religions that never sent out missionaries to gain converts from other religions. The fact that after 3000 years of existence there are still so few of them (18,000,000 in the entire world I believe) attests to this.

2. Holiness of pigs? Where does that come from? Both cultures treat pigs as filthy animals, except that dietary laws prohibit Jews from eating them (no hoofs).

3. Jews assimilate in record numbers, which is another reason why their numbers remain so low. The majority, at least in the West, is lost to mixed marriages.

4. True about the success, but the reason was that Jews were traditionally forbidden from owning land and so could not farm and were forced to become merchants and bankers.

Jimmy1988 13:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Judaism is one religion that does not seek convert but instead, actively dissuades people from converting as they believe that one need not be a jew to be righteous, thus their stand. Also, the no. 1 point about conflicting theological points such as Christ, the roots of Christianity and Islam came from Judaism. If there is to be one asserting the tenets of another religion as false it would to religions that was created later. Last but not least people should respect the religious beliefs of other people, therefore there is no reason why Christians and Muslims should persecute the Jews throughout history even if they may share different religious beliefs.

Kev_the_Sage 04:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Misuse?

Should this page make a note of the misuse of the term? What I mean is that any criticism of Israel, it's actions and policies can be and is oft labeled as anti-semitic - in an attempt to quell criticism - or the use of the term as a "weapon" against (political) opponents who might've made a fleeting non-positive comment about Israel?

Examples: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/20/news/spain.php, http://www.thestar.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=132&fArticleId=284155, http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1744960,00.html

I also found this and this which are pretty interesting reading considering the misuse of the term. -G3, 02:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Most Jewish organizations equate anti-Zionism (in the sense: "against a Jewish state"), to anti-Semitism ("against Jews"). Poltical criticism of Israeli policies, specifically with treatment of Arab populations, is rarely seen as anti-Semitism, even by proliferate organisations like ADL Masterhomer File:Yin yang.png 06:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not what I implied, I merely pointed out that one de facto use of the term is as a political weapon instead of a legitimate term and as such the misuse should be noted under the article because it exists and is relatively common, partly because of the misconception and partly because of easy political or media gain offered by cheap (as in easy to make, hard to dissolve) accusations. This article, in my opinion, presents a good opportunity to differentiate legitimate criticism for the often controversial policies advocated or actions committed by state of Israel from antisemitism. Then there's the apparent hyperbolic vector in North American media also (eg. http://torsun.canoe.ca/News/Columnists/Coren_Michael/2006/08/12/1750501.html ). - G3, 23:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"Individual Hatred" is not Racism

Anti-Semitism (alternatively spelled antisemitism) is hostility toward or prejudice against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group, which can range from individual hatred to institutionalized, violent persecution.

There is a serious logical problem with this definition--throwing in actions not indicative to generalized hostilities against an entire race. While "individual hatred" should be left out as a propositional function, "institutionalized, violent persecution" should be revised to omit the armed militias of the world.

If a person (like Adolf Hitler) is going to be hostile against an entire race (the Jews), "individual hatred" at this point is irrelevant--Hitler did not "individually" hate any Jew--on the contrary, according to officialdom, he hated all of them.

Regarding the apparent hostility toward equivocation of antisemitism with "racism against the Jews," I specifically know that this hostility results from a fundamental flaw in human "egalitarian" principles of universality: where are the special terms for racism against the Africans--the Indians--the Chinese, etc?

As such, I can find many reasons to hate "any individual person"-- even if I should choose to be a nasty person like Hitler, Stalin, etc.--but none of those "individual" likes or dislikes are going to resemble the type of fanatic hatred exhibited in the racism of Stalin or Hitler. Racism is "universal hatred" not "individual hatred." --Juliusdedekind 14:50, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree, it must be group hatred, and the person as an individual would have to represent the group. Hating an individual, even if jewish, does not represent anti-semitism. Lashing out at a single individual because of his group, or traditions again, would fall into the scope of the article greroja aug 15, 2006

Link to Norwegian Parliament

The official chronology of the Norwegian parliament for 1851 can be found at http://www.stortinget.no/om_stortinget/Jodepara/Kronologi_1851.html It can provide a citation for the correct claim in the text that the prohibition of Jews in the country was lifted in 1851, but it is in Norwegian, and so, I don't know if it is appropriate to link. Some more experienced editors may have a look at it, I suppose.

Article Consitency with NAS

So, the NAS section of this page is almost entirely devoted to a long quote by Martin Luther King. That's nice, but MLK is not even mentioned on the NAS page itself, and our description of NAS is little more than "MLK was against it." I am wondering if there would be support for (1) moving the quote over to the NAS page, and (2) presenting a brief synopsis of that page in place of the quote. Ethan Mitchell 01:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The Crusades

The Crusades were a series of several military campaigns sanctioned by the Papacy that took place during the 11th through 13th centuries. They began as Catholic endeavors to recapture Jerusalem from the Muslims but developed into territorial wars.

A mob of mainly untrained and uncontrolled civilians, known as the People's Crusade accompanying the first Crusade attacked the Jewish communities in Germany, France, and England, and put many Jews to death. Entire communities, like those of Treves, Speyer, Worms, Mayence, and Cologne, were slain during the first Crusade by a mob army. About 12,000 Jews are said to have perished in the Rhenish cities alone between May and July, 1096. Before the Crusades the Jews had practically a monopoly of trade in Eastern products, but the closer connection between Europe and the East brought about by the Crusades raised up a class of merchant traders among the Christians, and from this time onward restrictions on the sale of goods by Jews became frequent. The religious zeal fomented by the Crusades at times burned as fiercely against the Jews as against the Muslims, though attempts were made by bishops during the First crusade and the papacy during the Second Crusade to stop Jews from being attacked. Both economically and socially the Crusades were disastrous for European Jews. They prepared the way for the anti-Jewish legislation of Pope Innocent III, and formed the turning-point in the medieval history of the Jews.

This really does need a reference:

"...perished in the Rhenish cities..."

Needs a clear who|what|where,...

Rhenish

Rhen

< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search/Rhenish >;

< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search/Rhen >.

Please. Thank You.

Hopiakuta 22:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the comment preceeding mine:

What's "nas"?

I do not find that, nor Dr. King, anywhere?

What does that comment refer to?

Thank You.

Hopiakuta 22:16, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, NAS = New Anti-Semitism. We have a section on this page, and a whole page elsewhere. The section here is (was) mostly about Martin Luther King. I'm changing it now. Ethan Mitchell 00:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Page style

If Anti-Semetism is the father (or mother article) of anti-semitism, shouldn't it be a bit more balanced with regards to current vs historical, and by country, again current vs historical. Also since the Islam and anti-semitism is daughter/son article, and I may never get to it... shouldnt it again have some real data inside of it... that is relevant. Also anti-semetism by country has only western nations... I cannot see how this is a fair & balanced article regarding anti-semitism if we are missing half + of the world.
Also did anyone note that Christianity and anti-semitism is quite detailed for having a main article and yet the islam on is one section.
Suggestions
•Etymology and usage
••Defintion
••Anti-Zionism vs Anti-semitism
•Historical anti-semitism
••Religious
•••Christianity (in brief - it already has an article)
•••Islam (in brief - it already has an article)</
••Country
•••List of countries, an overview please...if it is longer make another article
•Current anti-semitism
••Countries (religions at one time were very unified pan-nationalist entities, today that would be less so - also to keep the 'fair & balance' in mind - by country is more relevant, as this keeps any current religious POV out of (or at least minimize) the arena

If we can do something like this, then it would actually be useful as a reference.
Keep the historical as a minimum, because it is essentially root material for any current situations that might occur.

Obviously a lot of work done here, and just my opinion, that we could make it more relevant with a little structural rework.

My mantra : If a person could only read ONE article on anti-semitism... what would this article inform them about?
Note, article is 112 vs the preferred 32 size, so based upon this about 3/4 of the article should be moved, redefined, or cut.
Greroja 20:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Begun changes

Will do my best to list all changes made. Slowly but surely. Now at 110KB.... lol.
•three broad forms of anti-semitism; cultural/religious, racial, and political(anti-zion). Greroja 21:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the proper way to shorten the article is to offload content into subarticles leaving here only summaries and vitally important content. So far I find your changes ungrammatical and unclear, but I am willing to give you a chance to succeed. Do not be surprised if they get reverted, though. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

What do you find unclear in the changes BTW? Somebody change them to something clearer then! Be humble, be bold!Greroja 22:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed Racial Anti-Semetism, but we need a short paragraph to expand upon the poorly crafted :D definition at the start of the article. Greroja 22:22, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Many humble and bold people worked hard (and used spellchecker, something you would benefit from) on the article for years. Sure, it could use a set of fresh eyes and improvements are always welcome, but please proceed with caution. BTW, size is just a general recommendation and not a hard limitation. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 22:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

1. Yes I know the file size is a guideline. But anybody can see that an article which is duplicated/clarified in at least thee other articles, needn't be this long. I thought that a reminder of the file size might encourage a person or two to do something.

2. Yes I forgot to spell check, it happens. But as a fan of wit and sarcasm, I am happy to see that I am not the only one who uses it regularly (unlike the spell check).

3. A lot of people spend a lot of time doing... well nothing much. I think I work with a lot of them myself. Time does not equal quality, or even effort as you reminded me three times.

Greroja 22:48, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Way too big

This article is getting waaay too big. There is a tonne of stuff we could get rid of.220.239.134.188 04:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Removed 15% approx before you checked it out. Will keep working on it, by moving data to other areas, and keep relevant material on hand. Need a few hours at a time free before I can do more... that way I can spellcheck too :D Greroja 17:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

ReOrganization

First of all I didnt remove edit or reword anything. I simply moved the majority of the work into three major sections as defined in the first part.
The anti-semetism christianity section is huge and over-represented, and non-representational of what is happening currently in the world. Please create new articles and move the info away, or if its already duped in another article please make a link.
The Anti-Semetism Islam section, as well as racial could be better summarized and light in info. Please add.
Moved ALL the countries and anti-semetism to a new article under construction call Anti-semitism around the world.
Greroja 21:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

why d'you say that it is non-representational? There still are antisemitic incidents in Christian communities in Lebanon, East-Europe, Greece, Cyprus, Spain and others. Just that antisemitism in USA has gone down, but USA is hardly representative of Christians.Shiva's Trident 10:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism in Pakistan

I have frequently seen in blogs that Pakistani media frequently stereotypes Jews as "Kanjoos-Makkichoos", which is a pejorative phrase in Urdu meaning "Miserly and of low breeding". However, I have not found anything to support this specific claim beyond blog entries. If anyone has any information from a reliable source regarding this then please contribute. Thanks.Shiva's Trident 10:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

"kanjoos makhichoos" is a general expression used by people of all creeds all over south asia. Which literally tranbslates as "miserly and flylicker" and it was originally formulated for the Hindu banyas and anyone who is very tight fisted. Jeiwsh stereotype of this perjorative association is more a characteristic of Europe than South Asia. You will find references to many other ethnicities and castes in Pakistan all over. I will rewrite the section of antisemitism in Pakistan where in general non muslim minorities have not fared bad as compared to minority muslim sects apart from the 1947 partition. Not to mention the Indian Jews themselves lived in muslim neighbourhoods where non-abrahmic peoples considered them a sect of Islam and their synagogues were referred to as mosques.Omerlives

Don't see your argument here.I never debated the historical origins of "Kanjoos Makkichoos", merely that Pakistani media refer to Jewish people in this way. The concept of miserliness existed in Europe long before the Jews were ethnically cleansed from Eretz israel and into Europe (for the most part anyways). However, the long history of European antisemitism led to the characterization of the Jewish people as misers. A similar thing has taken place in Pakistan. Miserliness attributed to the Banias, then from there to the Jews. If Jews as a people are collectively characterized as misers then it is antisemitism, irrespective of the etymology of the phrase.

The rest is irrelevant to the discussion at hand and merely serves to color the issue. This article is about antisemitic attitudes, not about Jew-Gentile relations in Pakistan in general.Shiva's Trident 23:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The expression is unformal and jovial and absolutely no where in Pakistan media is has the expression ever been used to describe jewish or any other people. Infact in Pakistan atleast it is a term of endearment at times which a wife might use for her husband or a freinds might use for each other. TYhe origins of the term itself is based on a light hearted humored folklore about a miserly shopkeeper. This in turn puts the entire refernce given here suspect. After i get done with my stuff, i'll remiove the antisemitic piece in this article which obviously references a very suspect website without any historical references. Omerlives

That would be a violation of WP:OR and WP:AGF.Shiva's Trident 07:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

lol, well certainly not by me. Don't worry.Omerlives

Hitler's Cross Incident

Does the "Hitler's Cross" business in Mumbai count as an anti-semitic incident? I say that it doesn't for 3 reasons:

• The proprietor, Puneet Sablok, was unaware of the magnitude of offense that this would cause the Mumbai Jews.

• Upon dialogue with Mumbai Jews, Sablok changed the name.

• Jewish advocacy groups have expressed satisfaction with the resolution.

Now, anti-semitism is defined (in TFA) as 'prejudice or hostility towards Jews'. Sablok did not have any prejudice or hostility (none was discovered or reported) but his naming the restaurant was largely due to ignorance which, when corrected, caused the name change. Does an incident established as borne out of ignorance count as anti-semitic by the article's definition of the term?Shiva's Trident 12:15, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Surnames

I notice that the surname \"Judefeind\" still exists in Germany. Are there any other anti-semitic surnames in Europe? --Slashme 08:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, far too many to list. Mostly Dutch and German. Ry0d0x 13:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

"New Anti-semitism"

This reference in the opening section is, in my opinion, just a slur on the left and I am very surprised at the way it has been presented as undisputed fact here - I am going to make an edit and see how it flys. --SandyDancer 22:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course it is; that's the whole point of it. It doesn't even have the basic honesty to admit that the very existence of "new anti-semitism" is a highly disputed ideological claim. Palmiro | Talk 22:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Please don't insult me, Palmiro. The "whole point" of the edit was not to make a "slur on the left." (Why would I care about doing that?) The "whole point" of the edit was to include this new concept in the list. And I made it clear it is a concept, not an established phenomenon; and also that part of the concept is that it comes simultaneously from the left, far right, and Islamism. If you feel it's a slur, why pick out the left? Or don't you care about alleged slurs on anyone else? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Definition is in contradiction with categorization criteria

This definition is in contradiction with contradiction with the categorization definition being proposed on Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. SighSighSigh 04:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Whilst this page does prominently link to the Holocaust denial page, it seems as if my concerns are more aptly put there. SighSighSigh 06:45, 14 September 2006 (UTC)