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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ikip (talk | contribs) at 18:08, 14 September 2006 (→RESULTS: ::::Sorry User:Seabhcan, I know that Gladio was something you added. Maybe we can add it to the "see also" section. I also have to abide by no one agreeing to a name change. Sigh. ~~~~). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on August 9, 2006. The result of the discussion was No Consensus.

Please see Talk:American terrorism for an older discussion relevant to this topic.

Requested move

The following discussion is an closed debate of a page move. Please do not modify it.

The result of the debate was: Oppose

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As the mediator I would like to note that allegations is a weasel word. WikieZach| talk 21:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do not agree that allegations is a weasel word, if we are in fact writing about allegations. Tom Harrison Talk 21:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry but "Allegations" just isn't a "weasel word", it's not on the list of weasel words, can't be, and never will be - it's a noun that describes a definite article.--Zleitzen 02:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes it is a weasel word that takes away the authority of the act. And it is on the list and it is in the style guide. Only when used to describe a crime by a person should it be used. In this case, it opens the door for all sort of WP:OR because it just has to be "alleged" and not real.--Tbeatty 03:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
See the coversations below, and the hard work of Lisa. There seems to be a constructive comprimise toward a viable name change which we can all agree with, so thankfully, the argument over whether "allegations" is a weasel word appears to now be moot, and we can move on, agreeing to disagree. Travb (talk) 03:13, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Effects of name change to "political violence" - and an alternative suggestion

I'd like to get an idea of the effects that the proposed name change would have on the article before 'voting'. As this is a non-trivial ponderance, I have broken this out to it's own discussion. Next to each TOC entry in italics is my opinion of the change's effects, and as an experiment you will find, under each entry, my one-line summary (occasionally in a comic style) of the text:

  • 1 Definition and the term American terrorism - obviously is going to change significantly
    Best entry here talks about the CIA and covert acts against hostile states, otherwise focuses on the name itself
    • 1.1 Criticism of the term - most likely will be dropped
      Probably a very good argument for renaming
  • 2 Allegations
    • 2.1 Latin America
      • 2.1.1 Cuba - one of the more strongly terrorist-refering sections
        CIA training of covert/paramilitary groups mostly
      • 2.1.2 Nicaragua - whilst true, does not fit well with either title
        Hello CIA operatives and their training of groups again...
    • 2.2 Middle East - seems to suit the new title
      CIA and others helping paramilitary groups
    • 2.3 Western Europe - parts political but not that violent
      A quote - "covert policy of training partisan"
    • 2.4 Court Cases - supports more the new title
      • 2.4.1 Nicaragua vs. United States ^
      Unlawful use of force by supporting guerrilla forces
      • 2.4.2 Yugoslavia v. United States ^
        Refering to a military action better covered in the Kosovo War article
    • 2.5 Other allegations of American terrorism - would vanish under new title
      Poor collection of points linked only by the term, and not their content. Would be worth removing, really.
  • 3 References
  • 4 Further reading
  • 5 See also - unrelated, but... why global warming?
  • 6 External links

I'm seeing that a change of title is needed, but it's not political violence. Almost all the core sections talk about covert acts by the US against other nations, and I suspect a less cludgy version of that will be exactly what we want - clearly defined, and covers most of the current article's spirit (and allows us to use references to state that some call such acts "american terrorism"). LinaMishima 02:12, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I dont understand, are you advocating we change the name to one that matches only one specific definition of terrorism. Further the Nicaragua thing does not call it terrorism at all, they also specifically state the US was not responcible for the acts of the rebels. The accusers did not file terrorism charges but charges of unlawful force, which was their funding of those rebels, not participation in any actions. There is a big problem basically unless sources are provided that state terrorism specifically and actually contain someone making the allegation. The straw poll was nice but still elaves a burden of proof in sources. --User:Zer0faults 02:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am suggesting that we eliminate the word terrorism in it's entirity. it serves no purpose, as the examples being given are majoritively those of covert actions or support of paramilitary groups. The article should have a name accurate to the intent of the content (and vica-versa, but in this case the content indicates a different title). I'm suggesting a radical rename with virtually no significant effect on the content itself. The references are all there to support a title implying covert acts, and no inferance will ever be needed. LinaMishima 02:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Covert actions of the United States? Perhaps Alleged illegal activities of the CIA? That last one I like most as it can then include things like COINTEL Pro, right cointel = CIA? etc. --User:Zer0faults 02:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Cointel was FBI turns out, so maybe Alleged illegal activities of the United States. Kinda long but easy to source as the person doesnt have to be saying they did terrorism, just something illegal, that means the court cases are automatically included since they themselves are accusations of illegality. --User:Zer0faults 02:25, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, not bad. How would Alleged illegal activities by the US effect the sections on Cuba, the Middle East and Western Europe, however? These talk mainly about allegations of terrorism and sabotage, which whilst they probably would fall under the remit, one could be pedantic about it. Perhaps the leading section would detail that allegations of terrorism and support of groups performing illegal actions should count? We're getting somewhere! :) LinaMishima 02:54, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well terrorism is illegal, as for sabotage that may be illegal. All in all as long as someone is alleging illegality its fine. So if Alarcon is saying the US commited an illegal act by sabotaging XYZ, then it works. I think its safe to assume terrorism is illegal, so any direct allegation of terrorism would be an allegation of illegality. --User:Zer0faults 03:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Allegations, Alleged violates WP:AWW. We are discussing this on the mediation page right now. We have discussed this ever since rootology (who has now been banned BTW) changed it. Travb (talk) 03:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like we're almost there, then. The big question is, however, can we find a means to remove alleged, as this is a weasel word of sorts, and the article would seem stronger if this was avoided. A quick search by prefix, though, shows us to be in good company :P LinaMishima 03:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You can always remove alleged but it then cuts down on what can be added, removing alleged makes it a statement of fact and then removed the ability to add allegations, things like the court case can stay in, but items that have not be proven factual, meaning courts deciding they are illegal is then up in the air. --User:Zer0faults 08:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we will ever get a 100% unanimous consensus. Look at the opinions of User:Zer0faults and User:Stone put to sky. They are the bookends on a wide political spectrum.
What is interesting is that User:Zer0faults and User:Stone put to sky both wanted the same name.[2] State terrorism by the United States. The middle want to keep the status quo (7 votes), but the bookends want to change the title. (6 votes). What does this mean for our suggested title? I don't know.
Until I see a better alternative, which I haven't in five weeks, I am sticking with Political violence by the United States, the most compeling reason is precedence. As I pointed out above: #Can we learn from other's mistakes? All of these alternatives have never been tried or tested. "Political violence" did, and has became a success story. --Travb (talk) 11:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You can keep reccomending it, but please do not move articles as they are not suppose to be moved against concensus. --User:Zer0faults 12:51, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Apart from a possible use of "Alleged", which can be avoided by a title such as "Covert actions of the US against other nations", we actually seem to be reaching some form of a consensus here based upon what the article covers. To be quite frank, "political violence" is too loose a term, almost a weasel word in it's own right as even the article Political violence has to acknowledge that there is no formal definition. Any use of this will be entirely POV. I really don't see your problem with the new suggestions that avoid 'alleged', other than the fact they are new. If I'm missing something major here, please say. LinaMishima 14:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Covert actions of the US against other nations" would be acceptable. If we can get User:Zer0faults and User:Stone put to sky to agree, the two "book ends" in this debate, I will ask the mediator to change the name. How about United States covert actions? Nice and simple. I remember reading a policy of not abbreviating "US" in titles. Good point User:LinaMishima. If you get everyone to agree, I am awarding you the first Herding cats award. Does Stone and Zero agree to the name: United States covert actions? If yes, I can ask the mediator to change the name today, and we can move on to more important issues.Travb (talk) 15:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The only problem I can see with United States covert actions or Covert actions by the United States is that of wide scope, many things not included here now will become suitable for inclusion. This is not a bad thing as such, however.. We'd also need to be sure as to what consitutes a covert action, and to be happy all such actions by the US may be included. LinaMishima 16:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is all nonsense. "Political Violence"??? *ALL* acts of violence perpetrated by a Government are "political violence" -- including wars of aggression, wars of defense, policing actions, the prosecution of political parties and cliques (McCarthy era, anyone?), and whatever else one can think of. Labelling this page "political violence" is essentially the same as renaming it "Violence by the United States"; what's the point? The original entry dealt with a specific *type* of violence; that would be the use of violence not to gain specific logistical ends, nor in the defense of the nation, but instead the use of violence to instill terror in civilian populations so as to force certain polling-booth results and/or treaty concessions from a greater power. Calling the page "Political Violence" is rather like renaming a page explaining sodomy "Human Sexuality" -- and less relevant.Stone put to sky 07:17, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: Moreover, the title "Political Violence..." would leave the article open to including such facts as the Kent State Massacre, the Cointelpro activities of the FBI, the various political assassinations during the late '60's/early '70's for which J. Edgar Hoover is largely considered responsible, the history of the U.S. Labor Movement and how it clashed with State forces throughout the 1800's and up into the mid-1900's, and so on.Stone put to sky 08:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I dont think you understand how sources work. You cannot include an incident then into an article on political violence unless the source specifically calls it that. Hence the idea for simple illegality. You would also be hard pressed to find a definition in line with yours for political violence as it seems partially like your own concoction. We do not do our own research here, meaning you cannot start an article on poltiical violence and define it yourself, then add items that are not being called political violence by the sources themselves. --User:Zer0faults 08:20, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You're arguing that "Political Violence" as a term is more clearly defined than "terrorism", which is currently debated and defined in hundreds -- if not thousands -- of legal briefs, international treaties, UN referendae, and media handbooks?
And you say *i* don't understand? Stone put to sky 12:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please read the thread, we are actually proposing neither terrorism nor political violence, just illegal cia acts kind of thing, so I guess it seems you do not understand. --User:Zer0faults 13:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Lets tone down the rhetoric gentlemen. I am sure Zerofaults "understand"s, and I am sure Stone "read the thread". Thanks. Travb (talk) 15:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Covert actions by the United States sounds like a "new analysis or synthesis of published arguments, concepts, data, ideas, or statements that serves to advance a position." Is this going to be a list? I only see about 150 google hits for the phrase. Is this a subject people have written about? Tom Harrison Talk 21:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I concede that the disambig page for covert action takes us to Covert operation, hence the article name should be Covert operations by the United States or similar. No OR is needed to state any of those, if you simply look through the article, almost all the referenced entries are refering to such things (as I summarised above). "Covert operation" gets 433,000 google hits, and the article on the subject itself clearly defines it, as do the references already in this article. Searching for the exact phrase would be foolish, as the exact phrase isn't the best of copywrite, but if we search for both "Covert Operation" and "United States" and eliminate forums and blogs, we get a rather nice 60,000 web hits. Google news instantly gives us more references, and a crude google scholar gives us 731 results. Is that any help? LinaMishima 22:00, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
NB: In addition I suggest Covert operations within other nations by the United States, so as to useably narrow the remit. The wording's cludgy, though, so better suggestions would be good. LinaMishima 22:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I actually I support this more as its a bit more interesting, that its outside but that is personal preference. By not saying outside the US you are including COINTEL PRO etc, there is quite a bit of content, I support both basically, outside US more for brevity. --User:Zer0faults 23:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I guess someone could write US covert operations, but that would be a different article. Some of the material now here could go there. If that were to be done, it should probably start as a section of Covert operation.
It seems to me the problem is in the selection and aggregation of bad things America has done, presented as factual. The issue is not so much the title, as the original research by synthesis. It looks to me like the assemblage we have now is well described by the title we have now, or maybe by American terrorism (term). Tom Harrison Talk 23:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Tom, if you look through all the parts to the article as it currently stands, only the yugoslavia bit is not about covert operations. So I really don't see how this makes this article not about covert operations by the US. Any such article would infact be almost the entirity of this article, anyhow. I beg you to put aside your attachment to the current name, and consider simple compromise solutions that allow the article to remain almost unchanged, and better fit the material within. LinaMishima 23:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I do not want the article to remain unchanged; I want it to improve as it conforms to our policies about original research and verifiability, as it must if it is to exist at all. The article as it is now only presents things thought to be discreditable to the US, with the added 'bonus' of implying US hipocracy in calling anyone else a terrorist. The article as it is now is an example of how "American terrorism" is used in contemporary discourse. It could instead be about how the term is used, as American terrorism (term) was for some time. I have no sentimental attachment to the present title, or to any other. As it is, and as it might develop, it is well described as Allegations of state terrorism by [the] United States of America, or by American terrorism (term). It is not well-described as a sober encyclopedic discussion of American covert operations. It is not that, and cannot be expected ever to be that. Tom Harrison Talk 23:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So explain to me please exactly how that relates to the idea of renaming the article to Covert operations within other nations by the United States? As that appears to be a rant against the current title to me. LinaMishima 00:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"As it is, and as it might develop, it is well described as Allegations of state terrorism by [the] United States of America, or by American terrorism (term). It is not well-described as a sober encyclopedic discussion of American covert operations. It is not that, and cannot be expected ever to be that." Tom Harrison Talk 03:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Tom has some good points, and his opinion is valued and important because he has been a strong advocate of comprimise for some time... I really hate the word "rant".
In an effort to build consensus and comprimise User:Zer0faults has agreed with the term United States covert actions here, User_talk:Zer0faults#Can_we_agree_on_this_title?. Thanks User:Zer0faults. I await: User:Stone's approval.
User:LinaMishima wrote: ...but if we search for both "Covert Operation" and "United States" and eliminate forums and blogs, we get a rather nice 60,000 web hits. Google news instantly gives us more references, and a crude google scholar gives us 731 results. Is that any help?
Yes, it help immensely, LinaMishima, you are on your way to that promised steak dinner and the first ever Herding cats award :)
Covert operations within other nations by the United States IMHO is too clunky I am afraid. United States covert actions is brief. List of United States military history events is a vague title, but what we did in the first paragraph is define what military history events is and is not. "Note that instances where the U.S. gave aid alone, with no military personnel involvement, are excluded." We can do the same in the introduction of United States covert actions. "Note that instances of U.S. covert actions in the US are excluded." Travb (talk) 03:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

United States covert operations or actions is fine. Eliminates all the WP:OR and implied terrorism of acts. It will give more material as well. I would also treat this as a merge and not a rename. Purge the speculative stuff. --Tbeatty 03:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just so people are aware US Covert Operations would include domestic by its title, so it will include technically hundreds of articles COINTEL PRO etc FBI operations. It may end up being an article that then needs to be split up. --User:Zer0faults 03:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
United States domestic covert operations and United States international covert operations Problem solved? :) Travb (talk) 03:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No - strong object. That would mean the removal of the only unopposed and heavily sourced section on the page - Cuba. It means basically deleting (or hijacking) this page with a totally different agenda and writing a new one. As the Cuba section is written around "allegations of State terrorism" - a perfectly legitimate title by the way (see allegations of tourist apartheid in Cuba) - it can't go on your new page and thus will have to go somewhere else. Where? --Zleitzen 04:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It appears from reading the section that this was a covert action also. So your Cuba section is quite safe. Travb (talk) 06:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Travb. --User:Zer0faults 09:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The whole issue of this page is to show how the use of the word "terrorism" by U.S. government sources is as equally and legitimately applicable to activities that are sponsored and initiated by the U.S. government, but are rarely mentioned or addressed in the U.S. media or educational institutions. With the current debate following its current line, the original page will be entirely effaced by a series of pages that in no way whatsoever address the original issues raised by the original page. 125.232.200.224 05:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where did you come up with this? "rarely mentioned or addressed" seems to imply "poorly sourced". That is never the intent of a wikpedia page and the problem with the title. It is very difficult to find a consensus for what constitutes terror, therefore including anything on this page implied that it was terrorism even if it was contested. That made for a bad title.--Tbeatty 06:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Articles should not have a point, especially political ones. Perhaps you think this is a political forum, but its an encyclopedia. Please keep that in mind our anon friend. --User:Zer0faults 09:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with User:Zer0faults and especially with User:Tbeatty although Americans actions maybe considered "terrorism" in some circles, their simply is not enough English sources to my knowledge for this title to remain the same, and their is too much oposition to the title for Allegations of state terrorism by United States of America ever to be a stable page, free from large scale deletions, or the threat of AfDs. Anon, my friend, you may be ahead of your time, the idea of "American terrorism" has not gained widespread popular support yet, at least in the first world, and it may never gain widespread support. It is like trying to change the name of the Philippine Insurrection to Philippine American War in 1901. It took the U.S. Library of Congress 101 years to change the official title from Philippine Insurrection to Philippine-American War. Travb (talk) 12:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The term 'Covert Operations' is too broad and inclusive and as a result an article with this title would need to include US Covert Operations such as the CIA planned/executed coups in Iran, Guatemala, Chile, etc.NBGPWS 02:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I susepct that there are editors that would consider those actions "terrorism" so what is the difference? Rather than argue about whether it's 'terrorism' call it covert and source it and no one will argue whether it should be included. --Tbeatty 06:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I do not support those names, for the same reasons I mention above. Tom Harrison Talk 15:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Page moves

I moved the strawpolls page to Talk:Allegations of state terrorism by United States of America-strawpolls and Talk:Allegations of state terrorism by United States of America-strawpolls-talk. It was necessary to move them out of the main article space. Sorry for any confusion. Tom Harrison Talk 18:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Tom, although I still don't understand why you did what you did, even after you explained on my talk page, I appreciate it. Travb (talk) 03:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mediator Review

I will realese my desicion on what will stay and go on the article (per the strawpoll) early Monday morning. Thank you. --WikieZach| talk 20:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Confused

I'm now confused. Tbeatty wrote of changing the name : "Eliminates all the WP:OR and implied terrorism of acts". What will happen to the accounts of actual terrorist acts?--Zleitzen 03:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Name an acutal terrorist act by the United States that is NPOV and substantially agreed to as terrorism published by experts? That's the probelm with the current title. There is nothing that everyone could substantially agree on. "terrorism" is a POV term that is hard to achieve consensus with. You can find people and sources who will call almost anything terorrism but it's rare for an event to be described by nearly everyone as "terrorism." --Tbeatty 06:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Jumping in for a second here. . . Can you name an "[actual] terrorist act" by any governmental body, the description of which as such is non-controversial? Jun-Dai 04:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Bombing of Cubana Flight 455, was that terrorism?--Zleitzen 06:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
State terrorism by the United States? No. --Tbeatty 06:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well the Cuban government seemed to believe it was, and stated so. They are notable, as of yet, you are not. So it stays on the page, just as "United States Department of State accuses Syria as a state sponsor of terrorism" etc stays on the State terrorism in Syria page. --Zleitzen 09:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone here should read this page: State terrorism in Syria and the opening paragraph
Several groups and individuals have claimed that Syria engages in state terrorism.
The United States Department of State accuses Syria as a state sponsor of terrorism for providing "political and limited material support" to a number of Palestinian rejectionist groups, deemed to be terrorist groups by the United States, Canada, the European Union, and Israel. These groups include the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC), the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and Hezbollah.[1]
If this Syrian article is allowed to stand (it should be Allegations of State terrorism in Syria by the way) - and I believe it should be allowed to stand, then our article should stand with it's present title also. With all material written and sourced in the same fashion as the above. On the Syrian article one of the allegations is actually made by PBS! If what I consider would be a false consensus to appease partisan disputing users means that we change our title to "Covert actions.." - then this page: State terrorism should become covert actions. This page: List of acts labelled as state terrorism sorted by state should become covert actions sorted by state and so on.
Unless you are prepared to change all of these titles, then you shouldn't try and change this one. My criteria for this page is clearly laid out above. Please see [3]--Zleitzen 07:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Zleitzen if you feel so strongly that there is plenty of sources to be presented stated specifically state terrorism, the please provide them for the entire article. The problem is there are not sources calling the events terrorism for most of them, almost none of them calling anything state terrorism either. If you fel you can populate all the sources for the article then go ahead. However since the AfD I believe 3 sources have been cooked up and all of them attributed to Alarcon ... not really enough to supported the WP:RS idea of claims on that scale needing multiple sources. --User:Zer0faults 09:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I hate to be a spoil sport since Lina's solution is so effective in getting many to agree. There should be a US international covert action article. In addition, so as avoid the charge that WP is a US gov't apologist, we should follow the other "terrorism" articles as Zleitlin points out and have this "terrorism by US" article. There are such articles for other major countries, there is one called "state terrorism," so there should be one for the US too. The sources already cited in this article provide more than sufficient support for the examples provided in the article.--NYCJosh 17:42, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The problem as I keep pointing out is sourcing an article on terrorism. The sources has to meet WP:RS and WP:V and specifically accuse the US of terrorism. This means saying John Doe that works for the CIA is a terrorist, is not eligible for inclusion, cause they are accusing John Doe, not the US. The article is also stating a specific type of terrorism, state terrorism, the difference in the end I couldnt tell, however the source should be alleging state terrorism specifically then, or accusing the US of being a terrorist state, are they reversible like that? While I do not mind an article on such a thing existing, the real issue to me is sources calling the US a terrorists state, guilty of state terrorism etc, not simply stating the US did bad bad things, not simpyl headlines with terrorism in the topic, but an actual being making an actual accusation.
As for the others I have no clue if they are actually filled with valid sources maknig accusations, just from recent news however I am sure there are plenty of examples of Syria being accused of terrorism by Israel. However as state covert operations gets rid of the terrorism dark hole of infinite definitions. --User:Zer0faults 17:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Do you consider William Blum inclusionable? William Blum quit his job at the State Department in 1967 because of his opposition to the U.S. government's war in Vietnam. He became a freelance journalist and author exposing U.S. malfeasance around the world, culminating in his all encompassing and extensively documented book, Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Intervention Since World War II. Blum's latest book, Rouge State: A Guide to the Worlds Only Superpower, further exposes the dirty underbelly of the U.S. Empire. Both books are must read material.NBGPWS 02:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just to reiterate, I respect Lina's work and in light of the conflicting opinions, she has done an ingenious job. Will someone (Tom, perhaps) now propose watering down the title floated by Lina to the less threatening "Allegations of covert operations by the United States" and then insist that only if the source recites the magic words "covert action" can the source be cited in support, and even then, only in the form "x alleges that the US performed y covert action." I am not trying to be funny. I am simply pointing out the farcical nature of the process that led to this point: a perfectly legitimate title "Terrorism by the US" was consistent with the other such WP articles (State terrorism, state terrorism by country z, etc.). This is an important topic given the high-stakes war on terrorism now under way. But this was a no-go (too close for comfort for long-cherished sacred cows), so we had "Allegations ..." which some maintained had to be limited to sources and sentences as above-discussed. But that runs afoul of WP rules, so we are urged to move to the more bland "covert action." If I cannot stop this I would like to at least register my opposition and note for the record how we got here.--NYCJosh 02:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It has to be "allegations of state terrorism by the US". Without it imples universal agreement which is impossible - as it would be for any account of state terrorism including Syria. There has been talk of allegations being a "weasel word" above which is simply untrue, and it isn't on the Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words page no matter how many times people insist it is, the word on that page is "allegedly" which is an adverb not a noun - a totally different animal. Having been through this on other pages beginning with the title "allegations" agreed by the likes of myself and User:Jayjg [4] there should be no problem here. As a sample of other pages see:

We report notable "allegations of state terrorism". The best thing to do here would be to unlock the page and just let editors detail notable allegations of state terrorism as defined by the source. Releasing it from the stranglehold enforced by these disputing parties. Content editors need to be able to improve this page and abide by policy agreed throughout wikipedia, not the curious interpretations that seem to haunt this talk page.--Zleitzen 04:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree 100%, either allegations of state terrorism by the US or acts and allegations of state terrorism by the US NBGPWS 04:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This page needs to get back on track. Users should look for notable sources describing allegations of state terrorism by the US. And they are widespread - Harold Pinter anyone? He hasn't even been mentioned yet, but his allegations made after receiving a nobel prize were broadcast in full on live peaktime television. That is notable. --Zleitzen 06:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
User:Zleitzen, we have consistently attempted to get this name change taken care of, so we can "get back on track", but some wikiusers stubbornly hold onto views about weasel words and refuse to comprimise, even after third party mediators decide those weasel words should be removed (this mediator decision was supported by liberals and conservatives). In addition these same wikiusers hamper building consensus to the point that we will may never be able to "get back on track". Please don't complain about our inablity to stay on track, when you helped get us lost. :) Travb (talk) 06:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, Travb. You say "we have consistently attempted to get this name change taken care of". Who is "we"? Even the strawpoll supported the original title. You can attempt to resolve your differences with Zerofaults and co via mediation - but that shouldn't compromise this page or the majority of us who have no issue with the present title, voted to keep it and just want to edit notable allegations of state terrorism. If you prefer, start a new page about covert actions and take your dispute elsewhere. But I'm here to talk about allegations of state terrorism. ie - staying "on track". --Zleitzen 06:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV does not mean we need to have moral equivalence between Syria and the United states. There is a reason why Syria has a terrorism article and it doesn't mean we need a U.S. version of it. How far would you take this logic? Is it unfair that Russia has a "Stalin" and Germany has a "Hitler" but no leader in the U.S. have been identified as a mass murderer of it's citizens? Please. Syria has a strong terrorist component to it's articles in Wikipeida because it has a strong tie to terrorism larger than most countries. Certainly a lot stronger ties to terrorism than the United States. There is no moral equivalence or requirement that the U.S. have a state terrorism article simply because Syria does. --Tbeatty 07:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We take it as far as this, Tbeatty: Notables have alleged that Syria partakes in "State terrorism". Notables have alleged that the U.S partakes in "State terrorism". We report that. That is the logic.--Zleitzen 07:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There are dozens of incidents that many people, notable and otherwise, consider acts of US terrorism. Mark Twain even condemned the US's 'terrorism' in the Phillipines. Many consider the US use of the 'atomic bomb' in WWII 'acts of terrorism' Alleged Acts of US Terorism NBGPWS 07:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As long as the source is notable (ie.Mark Twain) and refers to "terrorism" in name, initiated or supported by the US then it is acceptable, NBGPWS--Zleitzen 07:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
He didn't use the word terrorism. I consider Howard Zinn and William Blum sufficiently notable though, and they did. NBGPWS 08:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Zinn yes, but I've read Blum on Cuba over the years and in my opinion he is not notable enough to be quoted directly on the page. He's still a marginal writer. But he could provide a good starter point for personal research, to users who wish to improve the page.--Zleitzen 08:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This article is going to start looking like a joke if you start adding sentences like William Blum accuses the US of terrorism in conflict X by action Y. Cause most people do not care nor know who William Blum is. Mark Twain is going to seem like a comical reference and most people will just laugh at Chomsky. I no longer object to anything in this article case it seems the people who want it to stay as is are going to sufficiently make it a joke. I reserve the right to over turn this later. I hope there is a nice NPOV section countering these events in each section or the POV tag will be slapped on the article. --User:Zer0faults 12:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And why are your opinions as to how YOU will view the article (and your projections on how others might view it) relevent to the discussion at hand ? NBGPWS 21:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please comment on content, not on other users. Tom Harrison Talk 22:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I couldnt possibly fathom what an editors opinion on an article could have to do with an article that editors are suppose to be collaborating on ... I dont like anti-government articles, but i rather have one that a joke of an article that will make Wikipedia look bad. That is really my point, having an unsourced article, or poorly sourced one, or a list of quotes of Chomsky hating the US is going to be something else for the media to call Wikipedia out on. --User:Zer0faults 00:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Zero opined that (to him) including certain sources would make the article 'look like a joke'. That is his personal opinion. We judge articles based on informativeness and adherence to WP, not on whether or not we agree with the content. NBGPWS 00:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Whats a straw poll? As for informativeness the very first opinion is just that, I am questioning the important or notability of one of the accusers. As for Mark Twain, well ignorance will prevent people from actually knowing he is more then a book figure. As for Chomsky, well its Chomsky, who other then the far left takes him serious. I am saying if you want to write a good article on this topic you may want to go beyond. If Bill Cosby said america was a terrorist state, would you include it? Its verifiable, but I mean its Cosby ... --User:Zer0faults 00:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If Baron Von Munchausen accused the US of "state terrorism", then it goes in. Whether anyone takes him seriously or not. Because he is notable. Plenty of people don't take John Bolton seriously, but that has not stopped me adding his allegations to various pages. Should I remove these lest other users guffaw at his wild-eyed proclamations and blame wikipedia? No.--Zleitzen 00:34, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Include Bill Cosby? Possibly. Did he call America a 'terrorist state'? There's a whole section of controversial statements in the article on Harry Belafonte, including these: "In January of 2006, Belafonte led a delegation of activists including actor Danny Glover and activist/professor Cornel West which met with President of Venezuela Hugo Chávez. Belafonte was quoted as saying, "No matter what the greatest tyrant in the world, the greatest terrorist in the world, George W. Bush says, we're here to tell you: Not hundreds, not thousands, but millions of the American people... support your revolution." and "On a Martin Luther King Day speech at Duke University in 2006, Belafonte claimed he found no difference between the American government and the hijackers of 9/11, saying, "What is the difference between that terrorist and other terrorists?" Why are they there? Because he's notable, and the quotes were notable. I don't believe many people consider Belafonte a respected scholar a la Chomsky or Zinn. What ARE the Bill Cosby quotes you'd like to include, Zero? NBGPWS 00:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't exactly call Bill Cosby's opinion on Terrorism notable. Bill Cosby as a person is notable but not everything he says would be considered a reliable source. It's not peer reviewed, published in notable journals on terrorism, etc.--Tbeatty 01:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not published in notable journals on terrorism? Erm? Anyway. Following up the John R. Bolton article it reads:
In 2002, Bolton accused Cuba of transfers of biological weapons technology to rogue states and called on it "to fully comply with all of its obligations under the Biological Weapons Convention."[23]
Now, most people in the world who read these extraordinary claims found them ridiculous, (they were quickly discredited and downgraded by his peers). Should they be removed? Of course not. They are notable allegations whether people find them ridiculous or not.
Read these serious and complex allegations against the UK. They could be worded and sourced better, but the inference and style is correct [5]. That's the kind of writing that should be on this page. Once the page is unlocked, that is. I also urge users to read this page: Allegations_of_Israeli_apartheid to see how to present material as per agreed at length by many users including arbitrators. --Zleitzen 01:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So we are not attempting to make a serious article we are attempting to just list wacky theories, allegations of state terrorism by former actors and singers lol. Like I said, I will not object to anything being added to this article since its sufficiently being given proper treatment by those who actually think its worth keeping. --User:Zer0faults 01:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if the above isn't clear enough for you Zerofaults. But editors will be relating notable allegations of state terrorism, regardless of how amusing you find the subject matter. Is that clear now? If so, then no more comment from either of us is neccessary. Thanks for your input and I think it is time to unlock this page to let editors get back to editing.--Zleitzen 02:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I didnt say it wasnt a serious subject, im saying the people you are willing to settle for as accusers is gonig to make the article look silly. Please read more carefully next time. --User:Zer0faults 09:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zero, the article on 9/11 even includes conspiracy theories - so does the article on the Oklahoma City Bombing, I'm sure dozens if not hundreds of articles do. The article on Iraq and WMD devotes multiple paragraphs to these "wacky theories" - "Rumors from top governmental officials have abounded of possible transportation of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction to foreign countries, namely Syria and Lebanon, right before Operation Iraqi Freedom began." If an allegation of US terrorism comes from a notable person, and has some degree of acceptance, it should be included. I look forward to compiling the fiery quotes from Belafonte! By the way, Ronald Reagan's and Arnold Schwarzenegger's political fortunes were due to their 'notability' as actors. Bad actors, I might note. NBGPWS 02:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure what you are talking about at all. Filling an article with Chomsky accusations or non notable people is different from 9/11 theories. --User:Zer0faults 09:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are confused. "Terrorism rumors from top government officials" is notable. "Terrorism rumors from top of the chart pop singers" is not. John Bolton is the ambassador of the U.N. His opinion on foreign affairs is notable. His opnion about who the best singer in the world is not notable. Ronald Reagan and Arnold Schwarzeneggers notability in the political arena is due to their political fortunes, not their life as actors. Ronald Reagan's political opinions were not notable until he became a politicion. If Bill COsby becomes a politician and comments on Terrorism, then by all means quote him. --Tbeatty 03:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So now you contend that we should include 'rumors' if they come from 'top government officials'?That sentence was referring to Iraqi officials, so you are even arguing that claims about alleged American Terrorism from Chavez and Kim Jong Il need to be included! Perhaps the 9/11 article should give equal weight to ex Bush official Morgan Reynolds, since he was a 'gov official' "Morgan Reynolds served as chief economist for the United States Department of Labor during 2001–2002, George W. Bush's first term. In 2005, he gained public attention as the first prominent government official to publicly state that 9/11 was an "inside job," and is a member of Scholars for 9/11 Truth." WOW! NBGPWS 05:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm now confused too. Wasn't this section originally supposed to be on the title of the article? Lets all stay on point. Travb (talk) 05:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Recap

  • I explained to Zerofaults that the article will be relating notable allegations of state terrorism, regardless of how amusing he finds the subject matter. And that no more arguments or comments are necessary.
    • Zerofaults continues to argue and make comments replying that "the people you are willing to settle for make the argument look silly." - ie. Zinn, Pinter even Belefonte.
      • That he finds Zinn (historian), Pinter (noble prize winner) or Belefonte (calypso singing-household name-gobshite) silly isn't a satisfactory argument nor a reason to prevent editing. Therefore we can proceed and unlock the page.
  • Tbeatty argues "Only Terrorism rumors from top government officials is[sic] notable"
    • The page already carries allegations from top government officials. But of course there is no rule on any page on any subject that allegations need to be restricted to top government officials. For instance, Harold Pinter's allegations are notable by any interpretation of policy as explained above.
      • Again there are no new arguments from Zerofaults and Tbeatty's corner. Again we can proceed. So can we unlock the page and allow users to continue editing as per their reason for being here? I think it's time. If it reassures these users, I'll monitor the page to ensure that claims by non notables, or claims that don't refer to state terrorism in name are removed. --Zleitzen 11:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please post the quote when I said those people were silly. I specifically named certain people. I think if you cannot rationally discuss something without changing your opponents words around, you perhaps should not attempt to oppose them anymore. Also as I keep stating, I am not objecting to anything, your inability to read is quite disturbing. --User:Zer0faults 11:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Your inability to read is quite disturbing" is not a satisfactory argument about the article either, Zerofaults. Or anything else for that matter. We can proceed with unlocking this page. By the way, you are not my "opponent". This is not a battleground. Thanks for your input.--Zleitzen 11:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is why you have an inability to read. I have repeatedly stated, I am not objecting to anything. Geez, please read comments before making replies, and please stop asserting I said thnigs that I did not. I wish you guys would proceed with quoting Belafonte. I have been waiting for this article to be unprotected forever and was one of the only people advocating it. PS get a dictionary, opponent doesnt mean mortal combat and arenas. --User:Zer0faults 12:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"This is why you haev[sic] an inability to read" and "PS[sic] get a dictionary" are not arguments about this article, Zerofaults. You go on to state "I am not objecting to anything. I wish you guys would proceed with quoting Belafonte." As you have no more objections, there is no more need for you to comment now and we can get down to editing an article. Thanks for your input.--Zleitzen 12:21, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You know what now that I think about it, I do have a problem, WP:RS doesnt just cover notabiltiy but also reliability and I believe actors and singers with no political standing or legal knowledge are not appropriate under WP:RS. WP:RS also states that extraordinary claims require many sources, so I hope that are multiple sources for each claim and not just one. Meaning we cannot bypass WP:RS by simply stating Belafonte said XYZ when the subject is the allegations themselves, therefore more then one person really has to be making them and those people have to pass WP:RS. Also the source reporting the allegation has to pass WP:RS as the subject is still the allegationa nd not the person. --User:Zer0faults 12:28, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So just to recap, Zinn & Pinter great, Belafonte no, Chomsky yes (cannot be a legal opinion like converting legal rulings to other things, he is not a legal professor). --User:Zer0faults 12:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You yourself said that "you have no more objections - I wish you guys would proceed with quoting Belafonte". Therefore your objection is moot. Your argument here is not new, is rebuffed above, and is dealt with clearly by WP policy. Political standing or legal knowledge is not a requirement. Thanks for your comment.--Zleitzen 12:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I also stated I reserve the right to remove that, again please read more carefully. As for it being moot, much like you do nto care about my opinion I do not care about yours. The civility and respect you show me will be returned to you. When this article is unprotected I will proceed to edit it according to WP:RS. Please stop responding to me if you do not care what I say, or think my arguments are moot as you are just wasting both of our time then. --User:Zer0faults 12:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I care very much what you say Zerofaults. Is it OK for editors to quote Belefonte? As in "I wish you guys would proceed with quoting Belafonte". Or is it not as in "we cannot bypass WP:RS by simply stating Belafonte"? Do you "reserve your right" to insist on it's inclusion, or it's removal? I think an answer would help us understand your approach to this article. At the moment it is unclear.--Zleitzen 13:07, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
When the majority of editors here state its unclear, then I will take it as a sign it is. Until then I will just assume its more fo your inability to understand, perhaps there is just lots of miscommunication, as such I will refrain from addressing you, especially since you do not value my opinion as a fellow editor. Good day. --User:Zer0faults 13:28, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I value your contributions very much Zerofaults and I'm sorry you feel that I do not value your opinion. In fact you agreed wholeheartedly to my proposal to stick by convention and policy higher up the page. You also agreed that editors could "continue quoting Belafonte". But having apparently changed your opinion entirely on both these issues, you now talk about users "inability to understand", "miscommunication" and lack of clarity amongst the majority. Your disappointment is shared. --Zleitzen 13:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for creating another section User:Zleitzen.
Please lets not take cheap shots at each other "your inability to read is quite disturbing".
Please lets not explain each others positions as:
"arguments from Zerofaults and Tbeatty's corner" and users being "opponents".
I suggest that we try and drop the word "you" and "your" and instead use the words "an argument", making the observations less personal.
Examples:
From:
  • Tbeatty argues "Only Terrorism rumors from top government officials is[sic] notable"
To:
  • A user above argues "Only Terrorism rumors from top government officials is[sic] notable"
From:
"Please stop responding to me if you do not care what I say, or think my arguments are moot as you are just wasting both of our time then."
To:
"I feel like people here don't care what I say. I think my arguments have validity, and are not moot."
Caveat: I do realize that I need to practice what I preach more often. This idea is not my own. I was in a heated debate with the best conservative editor on wikipedia, and a third party mediator suggested dropping the "you" and "your" from the talk page)
Hope this helps. :) Travb (talk) 14:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, partially, but I dont feel as though "people here don't care what I say." Just that Zleitzen specifically says my points are moot, hence the comment is directed at him only. However it is good advice all around. --User:Zer0faults 14:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Zer0, I really appreciate your hard work.
"I suggest that we try and drop the word "you" and "your" and instead use the words "an argument", making the observations less personal."
From:
"Just that Zleitzen specifically says my points are moot, hence the comment is directed at him only."
To:
I get offended when others say my points are moot.
It is tough to learn to write like this, especially when a person is frustrated, and emotions run high. I have tried repeatedly to do write like this, and it is really hard, :( But the few times I have written like this, it seems to reduce the tension. Please don't hesitate to remind me of my own counseling when I start getting emotional and frustrated.Travb (talk) 14:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate your efforts however from your follow up example its obvious you completely missed the point. --User:Zer0faults 15:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Return to Tom Harrision proposal

Earlier on the page Tom Harrison stated

"A better idea would be to avoid original research, include only material backed up by verifiable citations to reliable sources, and present allegations as allegations rather than as fact. At this point I think we all need to verify that each source actually says what it is presented as saying."

Does anyone have any more objections to this proposal which I'm confident is the best way to approach the topic? This seemed to be agreed by a number of users. If not, then can we proceed? --Zleitzen 13:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good I will start checking through them --User:Zer0faults 14:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Last I knew, that was the original plan months back, before this decended to mediation. And indeed that plan didn't really work, thanks to the need for "terrorism" to be explicitly called out in references. This must be the US, or a department of the US goverment, explicitly being accused of performing terrorism, rather than meerly supporting or protecting terrorists. The other articles on state terror are based on the same premise - since terrorism has almost no definition, we ourselves at wikipedia cannot declare if something is a terrorist action or not. If everyone is willing this time to follow such a plan, then I see no reason why we can't decide now how to strip the article down to such statements. LinaMishima 14:24, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The source should define whether it is "state terrorism" or not. See the Syria page, Lina. Backing, supporting or protecting terrorist groups is what the US accuse the Syrians of under their "State terrorism" terminology. Therefore it goes into that page. If a notable accuses the US of state terrorism by backing, supporting or protecting terrorist groups then it should go into this page.--Zleitzen 14:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If a notable accuses the US of state terrorism because they are backing, supporting or protecting terrorist groups then it should go into this page. That is how I think that should read, meaning if the accusations is they are supporting terrorists, that is not an act of state terrorism, nor an accusation of it. The source has to say the US commited state terrorism. Its WP:OR for us to say the US says state terrorism = X so all accusations of X = state terrorism. --User:Zer0faults 14:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Although in other forms of writing it is Allowable to go "A is B; B is C; Therefore A is C", that is explicitly not allowed under WP:NOR. Whilst I support some leeway for trivial cases, allegations of state terror is not one of these, especially since terrorism has no real definition. We cannot define that something that there may be cause to allege as state terrorism is alleged as that, unless it infact has been called that. LinaMishima 14:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Read the Syrian page please. The US Government accuse the Syrians of engaging in "state terrorism" using that terminology. That page details those claims. The Cuban Government accuse the US of engaging in "state terrorism" using that terminology. This page details those claims. --Zleitzen 14:59, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What I am saying is, if the source says the US is harboring terrorists, that is not an accusations of state terrorism and cannot be included. If the source says the US is commiting state terrorism by harboring terrorists, then that is fine. I believe Lina is saying the same. The direct accusations of terrorism has to be there, not supporting terrorists, not backing or supporting, but actually of terrorism. --User:Zer0faults 15:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The source is saying the US is commiting terrorism. It says: "accomplice of terrorism". --Zleitzen 15:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not the same thing, sorry. --User:Zer0faults 15:12, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Articles in need of review

Some of these sections will be delete when the mediator decides the results of the strawpoll, so we won't have to worry about them. I will message him today. I hope in the spirit of comprimise and respecting the (as of yet decided) results of the strawpoll, that by "review" we all mean "rewrite" and not "delete". Travb (talk) 14:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Some of them are offsite articles, they cannot be rewritten. For onsite articles they need to be sourced according to the title. No sources need to be deleted, they just cannot be used to support an allegation if they do not contain one, they can be used to support an event however if they properly mention one. Z above reccomended we take care of this now, hence my postings, feel free to review some articles yourself. --User:Zer0faults 14:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Travb was right

The only section on this page which directly relates to allegations of State terrorism is the Cuba section, written by me as it happens. The sources clearly refer to "state terrorism". That was also the only piece that went unopposed on the staw poll. Now, Lina has added: Doesn't matter - it's not state terrorism, meerly not dealing with independant terrorists. Ergo I suggest this be culled (although it will have a use somewhere, this article probably isn't the right place. Travb was right. Policy, logic and even a straw poll is getting us nowhere. --Zleitzen 14:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Lina was very specifically replying to that article in which no terrorism is being alleged at all, state or otherwise. Please do not make a new section everytime you have something to write. --User:Zer0faults 14:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Which article? The one titled "The United States is an accomplice and protector of terrorism" written by the Cuban government or "Terrorism and violence, crimes against Cuba, have been part and parcel of U.S. policy for almost half a century." quoting the head of the Cuban parliament?--Zleitzen 15:06, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The one listed right above where Lina commented ... --User:Zer0faults 15:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
(repeat from above) So a source stating that the US is an "accomplice of terrorism" is not acceptable on this page?--Zleitzen 15:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please see above, accomplice does not mean they did it. --User:Zer0faults 15:15, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think "accomplice" means? I take it to mean "A person who joins with another in carrying out some plan (especially an unethical or illegal plan)"--Zleitzen 15:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Of all the definitions on Dictionary.Com you choose that one? a person who knowingly helps another in a crime or wrongdoing, often as a subordinate. An associate in wrongdoing, especially one who aids or abets another in a criminal act, either as a principal or an accessory. one who intentionally and voluntarily participates with another in a crime by encouraging or assisting in the commission of the crime or by failing to prevent it though under a duty to do so Accomplice does not specify they commited the act. [6]
Its all pointless anyway as the source is not stating they commited an act of state terrorism, or even terrorism technically. --User:Zer0faults 15:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Then you support the deletion of State terrorism in Syria. No sources on that page say that they commited an act of "state terrorism". It says they engage in terrorist acts, are an accomplice to terrorism and so on. Much like the Cuba section here.--Zleitzen 15:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If that is the case then yes, if it goes up for AfD I will review the sources to confirm and vote accordingly, please pass along a message if that does happen.
Also stating they engaged in terrorist acts is different then were accomplices to. --User:Zer0faults 15:58, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would dearly appreciate it if people did not take my comments wildly out of context. I was refering to The United States is an accomplice and protector of terrorism, states Alarcón, which only states that the US is an alledged acomplice of terrorism. Now, once again I refer people to read WP:NOR, which disallows the sort of inferance you are attempting to use. The biggest problem in this case is that acomplice is a deliberately vague word, ranging from everything but the attack itself, to training people to be able to commit the attack. Much like terrorism, infact. We could agree to a level of inference that is appropriate, but we must be very careful indeed. I am reviewing other state terrorism articles now. additional: state terrorism is really in need of a rewrite, to give appropriate focus to it's equal meaning as state-sponsored terrorism (should be a redirect). As such, I back down on sponsorship issues - these should be included, as long as we get a rewrite done to state terrorism, and some details proving the interchangability. However, truth be told, I've been reviewing all the state terrorism articles and a few on allegations (preliminary thoughts at User:LinaMishima/Current tasks, I'm pretty tough on them), and I believe that most state terrorism articles need major cleanup and referencing work, and may benifit from a name of the format United States and acts of terrorism, allowing for the full context to be explored, and for a more neutral name. LinaMishima 22:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned above: "That was also the only piece that went unopposed on the staw poll." In otherwords, this section is safe from deletion. This article has been in lock down mode for an entire month, and the well referenced material has stayed on the page. The results of the straw poll show that the majority of this article will remain intact (weasel word title or not). In otherwords: consensus worked, wikipedia worked.
Wikipedians, please keep in mind that it is pointless to engage in the defintion game, especially when some wikipedians definition is so narrow and "tendentious" as to exclude any acts of terorism. Some users hold an overly strict interpretation of Wikipedia:Reliable sources, which cannot be reasoned with. Engaging in repetitive assertions and circular logic gets us nowhere. Those users who participate in repetitive assertions and circular logic should be isolated because they contribute nothing to building wikipedia, and waste the time of those who are building wikipedia. Their games should not be encouraged. I will no longer argue well referenced material on this page, with certain users who fail to negotiate in good faith.
The section I added Psychological Operations In Guerrilla Warfare got the most votes to keep, 8-2, so there was a 4 to 1 margin to keep. I think this was partly because of the exhastive referenced sources.
Every sentence of Psychological Operations In Guerrilla Warfare, which I wrote, was referenced. Despite this, if given the chance, some wikiusers would continue to attack this section using repetitive assertions and circular logic, and an an overly strict interpretation of Wikipedia:Reliable sources. I simply don't have the time nor patience to play these pointless games, especially when this section is safe from deletion and is exhastively referenced.
Some people come to wikipedia to argue, others come to build an encyclopedia. Those who simply want to argue should be ignored and isolated by more mature wikipedians.
I know it is hard not to have the last word, but sometimes the only way to build comprimise and consensus is too ignore those who want neither. Travb (talk) 04:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As I said any section not meeting the requirement sof actually containing allegations will be removed 3 days afte protection from the page is removed, giving plenty of time for users such as yourself to source sections. On the first day I will post here articles that do not contain allegations of terrorism, much like I did above. Please see WP:COn WP:STRAW and WP:NOR WP:RS. A straw poll cannot overcome WP:RS and WP:V. Also 4-1 is not a concensus. I know this because i took part in a previous poll and was told by an admin that 23-4 was not sufficient enough to be a concensus. --User:Zer0faults 13:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

RESULTS

Result
Section "Vote" End Result
Title of article
      Allegations of state Terrorism by United States of America: 7 Keep Undecided
      State terrorism by the United States of America
      State terrorism by the United States: 		4 change Undecided
      Political violence by the United States 2 change 1 don't change
(maybe 2 change 2 don't change, one unsigned comment) 		Undecided
9/11 scholar for truth/Manual 30-31b section 5-2 5 keep 2 delete Keep
Definition of terrorism: FBI, UN and US Code definitions 7-0 (Unanimous) Keep
Criticism of the term: 7-0 (Unanimous) Keep
Cuba/Church committee 7-0 (Unanimous) Keep
Cuba/Northwoods 6 keep 3 delete Keep
Nicaragua (Psychological Operations In Guerrilla Warfare) 8 keep 2 delete Keep
Middle East 6 - 0 (Unanimous)
(2nd section weaker: 5 keep 1 delete) 		Keep
Gladio 5 keep 4 delete Delete
Nicaragua v. USA 6 keep 2 delete Keep
Yugoslavia v. USA 6 keep 4 delete Keep
Chomsky 5 keep 3 delete Keep
McVeigh 5 delete (unanimous) Delete
Wounded Knee 3 keep 4 delete Delete
Vietnam 3 keep 6 delete Delete
Ba'ath Party 2 delete (unanimous) Delete
Honduras 5 keep 2 delete Keep
Iran v. USA 6 keep 2 delete Keep
SOA and SOA Watch 5 keep 1 delete Keep
1980's support for Mujahideen
Late entry to strawpoll 		2 keep 2 delete Delete
General strawpolls
Exclude military operations by national armies (even if considered war crimes by certain units) 4 exclude 3 keep Delete
Exclude assasinations 3 exclude 5 keep Keep
Exclude plans and other non-implemented material 2 exclude 5 keep Keep

The title is currently being reviewed by other users, and so it will not make the final cut. The following is a rule I used to determine how to keep or delete a section: Only if a consensus wanted to keep it, the result is 'delete'.

SECTIONS TO BE DELETED: Gladio, military operations by national armies (even if considered war crimes by certain units), Vietnam, Wounded Knee, McVeigh, Ba'ath Party, 1980's support for Mujahideem.

All the rest will stay, for any questions please ask me. I will close the case within the next two days. WikieZach| talk 21:13, 10 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but concensus does not = majority especially such a small majority in some of your cases. Items that will be removed are the ones with no sources stating terrorism. --User:Zer0faults 00:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Based on what User:Wikizach said, I updated the list. User:Zer0faults, please make sure that I am correct. Thanks User:Wikizach. Travb (talk) 03:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wait a second here! Wikizach determined that there was 'no consensus' for '1980's support for Mujahideem'. It was tied 2-2, without my vote ( as I got here too late to vote ) and I support INCLUDING this, so please change from 'delete' to 'keep' or 'no consensus', or I will. Also, who removed the links in the 'end results' column, and why? Here's some documentation: UN report accuses Afghan MPs of torture and massacres NBGPWS 04:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I was the person who added the word "tie", User:Wikizach then determined it was a "delete". I have consistently said that I support anything that User:Wikizach decides. The '1980's support for Mujahideem' section was added the last day or so of the straw poll, so there wasn't really a chance for everyone to decide on this section. I would suggest brining this up to User:Wikizach.
But the results of the straw poll are set, please don't modify this graph unless I made a mistake in counting the votes, or applying User:Wikizach decision on total votes. If we allowed you to add your vote, then anyone could come along and do the same, there needs to be closure on this strawpoll. You are not the only person who has came to this page after the straw poll was closed. Lina has contributred a lot to this page, and she came after the straw poll was closed. I am sorry you came to late--your only option is to talk to the mediator, User:Wikizach about this. Travb (talk) 07:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK Travb, but it sounds like Zero doesn't plan on abiding by the results of the straw poll anyway, so why should everybody else be hamstrung by it, if one user chooses to ignore it? Thanks.

Plus 2-2 isn't much of a consensus, AND the inroduction of my Guardian link changes one of the votes to result in 3-1 for inclusion (4 to 1, if my vote were to count) : "Oppose per Zer0faults unless someone can document an instance of Mujahedeen terrorism while the US sponsored them, ie against the USSR. Actually I suspect this would be easy, but 'blowback' is not state terrorism. Kalkin 21:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)" NBGPWS 08:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can't speak for other wikiusers, this is a concern you can bring up with each other. Further, I would bring up all your concerns with the third party neutral mediator, he speaks with a voice of authority which I personally lack... Travb (talk) 12:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
PLease read WP:CON, a concensus is not just a majority. 70-30 when there is 10 votes or less is surely not a concensus. I think on some items we did reach a concensus and some we did not, that is unfortunate, but you can also read WP:STRAW for more information on straw polls as well. We do not throw WP:RS and WP:V away because many people want to, straw polls cannot overcome the need for sources. --User:Zer0faults 13:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I am not happy about the Gladio removal or the Mujahideen section, but I wil accept the Wikizach solution. Self-Described Seabhcán 13:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
On an unrelated note: is everyone aware of Google's new News Archive tool? [7] It will be very useful for finding reliable sources. For Example, (Gladio)(CIA & Terrorism)(US & Terrorism)(CIA & Drugs) Self-Described Seabhcán 14:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry User:Seabhcan, I know that Gladio was something you added. Maybe we can add it to the "see also" section. I also have to abide by no one agreeing to a name change. Sigh. Travb (talk) 18:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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