Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Assessment/Top-important

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This is the WikiProject assessment department "Top-Important" page belonging to Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels. It is used as a basis for those trying to agree the "Top" priority or importance of existing articles.

In other words a forum to discuss agreement on which Novel articles should "Always" be present in representations of this on-line encyclopedia. See also the WP:1.0 and WP:0.5 WikiProjects.

N.b. Please bear in mind that the aim is not to assess the relative qualities of the novels themselves, but to determine how importance (of what priority) it is the have an article about the subject in this on-line encyclopedia or any variant outtake from it. (see the WP:1.0 and WP:0.5 rationales.) It is not about literary merit, but how much expectation would the average encyclopedia reader have of finding the novel article present.

Current Top-important items

n.b. please list strictly alphabetically

A Christmas Carol

Strong promote to top. Dickens novel, very popular Christmas story. Everyone in the Western World knows Scrooge. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote. Well-known and part of popular culture Silverthorn 12:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep at top, I think. Importance in pop culture trumps limited critical respect, in this case. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A Farewell to Arms

Weak promote to top. Other masterpiece by Hemingway. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Relegate to high. john k 19:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

Strong keep. --Sordel 14:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

Assign to top. A genuine children's classic that's really lasted through the years. john k 20:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong assign to top. It's one of those where you ask yourself how we missed it. --Sordel 20:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Assign to top. A genuine classic that has entered popular culture too. Silverthorn 11:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anna Karenina

Strong keep. Tolstoy's masterpiece, along with War and Peace. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Silverthorn 11:58, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep. Often regarded as the greatest novel of all time. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bleak House

Rerate as high. There are more important Dickens novels. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate as high. Not the most well-known of Dickens novels. Others are probably more accurately described as his magnum opus and thus justify a higher rating than for this novel. Silverthorn 11:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep. Actually, this is one of the most acclaimed of Dickens' novels (eg. Chesterton & Harold Bloom). The only reason it's not as familiar to the general populace is because film adaptations and remakes do not appear every Christmas season and no one has tried to turn it into a musical.--Ibis3 20:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep. Like Our Mutual Friend and Little Dorrit, this novel is too long to be widely read by general readers but academia rates it as one of his very best. Recent BBC serialisation has raised its profile. --Sordel 07:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Long been regarded by most who have actually read Dickens as one of his best. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. While not his best known novel, it is the novel best-respected by critics. And the recent BBC miniseries has made it better known. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Brave New World

Keep. Literary interesting, and sparks a lot of discussion. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Crime and Punishment

Strong keep. Dostoevsky's masterpiece, along with The Brothers Karamazov. Influenced Nietzsche. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Well-known and influential Silverthorn 12:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep. Pretty obvious. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

David Copperfield

Weak rerate as high. Another Dickens novel, less important than Oliver Twist. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep. Again, you can't judge importance by the fact that someone made a musical. Dickens himself said David Copperfield was his favourite. I know that's not exactly a NPOV statement, but in terms of the Dickens canon, this one generally rates higher than Oliver.--Ibis3 21:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep. More critically respected than Oliver Twist or A Christmas Carol, and more famous than Bleak House.

Doctor Zhivago

Keep. Nobel-price winning novel, and almost everybody knows the film with Omar Sharif. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak rerate to high. Better known as a movie, I think. The Nobel Prize is not a flawless measure of importance or fame. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don Quixote

Strong assign to top. Not assessed yet, but *the* most important and influential Spanish novel Errabee 00:36, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong promote to top. I have yet to be able to get through it, but it is one of the most important novels written.--Ibis3 21:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong promote to top. This is in DIRE need of work; it is not just the most important Spanish novel - it is often listed as the greatest novel of all time! I tried to solicit a call to action on the talk page, but no regular editors seem to watch the page. I think the easiest thing would be a partial translation from the Spanish article, which was a FA, but it wouldbenice to have consensus before proceeding. Eusebeus 15:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong for top. Incredibly important. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dracula

Keep. From a literary point of view not interesting enough, but gained so much popularity in society, it should stay. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Has had significant influence on popular culture. Silverthorn 12:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

East of Eden

Weak keep. Masterpiece by major American writer John Steinbeck. Popular film with James Dean. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Relegate to high. There's a couple of Steinbeck works I'd put ahead of it (Grapes of Wrath, notably), and I doubt Steinbeck deserves more than one, given the current level of critical respect he generates (not high). john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Erast Fandorin

Keep. The central character in a currently 11-part detective novel series by Boris Akunin, the pen name of Russian scholar Grigory Chkhartishvili. Each novel is a pastiche on a different genre of detective novel. Literary interesting, and immensely popular (more than 15,000,000 copies sold). Errabee 15:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Relegate to high or medium. Immensely popular in Russia, maybe, but not very well known in the English-speaking world. There's any number of high-selling series of mystery novels - I'd suggest Lord Peter Wimsey, for instance, is much better known in the English-speaking world. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Eugene Onegin

Strong promote to top Every Russian knows parts of it by heart. Strong influence on other Russian literature, many citations and allusions. Errabee 01:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Promote to Top. Meets criteria for literary merit and cultural significance but ... it's written in verse. If that doesn't matter, then I agree with top-importance. --Sordel 07:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote to/keep at top. It's usually described as a "verse novel", and incredibly important. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fathers and Sons

Weak keep. Masterpiece from important Russian writer Ivan Turgenev. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Quite important. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Frankenstein

Keep. Popular culture demands it. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Has had significant influence on popular culture Silverthorn 12:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gulliver's Travels

Keep. Swift's masterpiece. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Harry Potter

Assign to top. Not assessed yet, but I can't imagine an encyclopedia without Harry Potter. Errabee 12:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak assign to top. Significant impact on popular culture Silverthorn 15:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
from the point of view of public interest you could not leave it out. Sandpiper 12:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In Search of Lost Time

Assign to top Very influential novel. Errabee 13:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong promote to top. This one is consistently listed as one of the top novels of the twentieth century. --Ibis3 21:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep at top. As Ibis says. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Jane Eyre

Keep. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Silverthorn 12:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. --Ibis3 21:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lady Chatterley's Lover

Strong promote to top. Very controversial work by major author D.H. Lawrence. Errabee 00:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote to top. Well-known and controversial work by major author. Silverthorn 13:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lazarillo de Tormes

Weak Keep. I must confess that I'm basing this solely on having read the article, but if this novel invented the picaresque genre, then it probably deserves top-importance. --Sordel 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Les Misérables

Assign to top. Not assessed yet, very influential novel by one of the greatest French novelists. Errabee 00:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Assign to top. Along with the Hunchback of Notre Dame, probably one of the best known works by Victor Hugo, an important French novelist. Has had significant impact on popular culture, including inspiring one of the longest-running musicals in the West End and Broadway. Silverthorn 13:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong assign to top.--Ibis3 21:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep at top. Magnum opus of Hugo. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lolita

Strong keep. Magnum opus from Nabokov; very influential on society and language. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep--Ibis3 21:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Madame Bovary

Keep. Who hasn't heard of this novel? Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Max Havelaar

Keep. Very influential novel, formed inspiration for the establishment of the Fairtrade Labelling Organizations International. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate to high. It may be influential historically overall and within Dutch/Indonesian culture especially, but I think in terms of literature, there a lot of other books that would rate higher in priority. This book isn't listed as one of the Great Books, nor on Bloom's Western Canon list or on BBC's Big 100 list etc.--Ibis3 21:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate to high. I had never knowingly heard of this novel, and the argument made for its inclusion in this group seems weak. It just doesn't seem to rank with others at this level. --Sordel 14:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate to high. There's so many better known works that aren't in top. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Please note that Max Havelaar is considered to be THE most important Dutch work (not just novel) by members of the Dutch Literary Society (see this list of the Digital Library of Dutch Literature (sorry, Dutch only)) Errabee 20:04, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- You make a good point, but of course we don't have national quotas for top-importance. We can only base our personal recommendation on our own knowledge or the case made to us. --Sordel 20:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  - A couple of thoughts on this. Dutch is a relatively little spoken language, and Dutch novels are not especially well known in English. Perhaps this is a similar case to The Betrothed, but I think the latter is actually considerably better known than Max Havelaar, perhaps just because Italian is a more spoken language than Dutch. but I guess there's a real question as to what our responsibilities are to literature that is not widely known in English. This is an English encyclopedia, and it should cater to things likely to be looked up by English-speakers. Anna Karenina, or The Charterhouse of Parma, or The Tin Drum, is well known in English as well as in its native language. I'm not sure the same can be said of this one. john k 20:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Middlemarch

Strong assign to top Regarded by many as the greatest European novel in English. --Sordel 07:12, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep at top. A great novel, Eliot's best, etc. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moby Dick

Assign to top. Very well known novel with many references in popular culture. Errabee 01:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong assign to top. Has a good claim to being greatest American novel. --Sordel 18:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep at top. Greatest American novel, etc. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My Name is Red

Rate as mid? Difficult to assess the importance of a novel that was published since 2000 and is, so far as I know, not well known or culturally pervasive. The article makes little case for Top-importance, and even a high rating looks generous. --Sordel 18:36, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate to high or mid. Too recent to be of the iconic status necessary for top, I think. Not all that well known. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nineteen Eighty-Four

Strong keep. Big Brother is watching you has become general knowledge. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Silverthorn 12:04, 12 August 2006 (UTC
Keep, I suppose. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No Great Mischief

Rerate to high. Not terribly well known, quite recent. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oliver Twist

Strong keep. Most important novel by Dickens. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak rerate as high. Not as important as Bleak House, David Copperfield, and Great Expectations. About the same level of importance as Nicholas Nickleby or A Tale of Two Cities, I'd say. --Ibis3 21:11, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. If it were the only novel that Dickens had ever written it would clearly be one of the major novels of western literature. It seems tough to exclude it merely because Dickens wrote better. --Sordel 07:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Dickens is important enough to have several. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One Hundred Years of Solitude

Assign to top. Nobel price winner García Marquez's materpiece. Errabee 09:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong assign to top. The seminal work in magical realism. --Ibis3 21:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Assign to top. - This work not only important as a premier example of magic realism, but its impact on the understanding of Latin American literature. --chemica 00:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep at top. One of the major novels of the 2nd half of the 20th century, I think. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pride and Prejudice

Keep Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Robinson Crusoe

Promote to top By popular demand. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong promote to top. One of the earliest and most influential of English novels.--Ibis3 21:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote to top Silverthorn 16:19, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote to top. Very influential and consistently popular for hundreds of years, although it's horribly boring. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sherlock Holmes

Strong keep A must have in every encyclopedia Errabee 13:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, although I'd prefer the category restrict itself to actual novels, and not to fictional characters. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Brothers Karamazov

Strong keep. Dostoevsky's other masterpiece. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Catcher in the Rye

Keep. Not in the first rank of literary significance, but has had a pervasive effect on U.S. culture and is an especially good example of unreliable narration. --Sordel 14:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. As Sordel says. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Chrysalids

Rate as high. I would have thought that The Day of the Triffids was the more obvious candidate for Top-importance, but there would be a hard case to make even for that. --Sordel 18:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rate as high. Not of top importance. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Fall

Keep. Masterpiece of Nobelprice winner Albert Camus Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate as High. Nothing that Camus wrote seems to merit top-importance and, even if it did, I can't see why one would make an argument for this as opposed to L'Etranger. I can't imagine anyone mentioning The Fall in the same breath as the other, more evidently top-important, novels on this list. --Sordel 07:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate as high. Of Camus works, this is clearly less improtant than The Stranger, and not sure any Camus should be on there. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Grapes of Wrath

Weak promote to top. Equal to East of Eden. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong promote to top. The Grapes of Wrath is important text to understanding the struggle of the American West during the dust bowl and some of the strongest writing by Steinback. Quite easily his seminal work. --chemica 00:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. It's Steinbeck's greatest, but not sure anything by Steinbeck should be on the list. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Lord of the Rings

Strong keep. By popular demand. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is also by now old enough to be a classic which has survived the test of time despite being slated by critics when it was written. Sandpiper 13:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. It has entered popular culture and stood the test of time. Silverthorn 13:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, I suppose. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Master and Margarita

Strong keep Influential masterpiece by the most important Russian writer of the early 20th century. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. A wonderful book, although I may be letting my enjoyment of it get the better of my sense of its actual importance. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Old Man and the Sea

Strong promote to top. Influential novel by Hemingway. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Relegate to high. It's critical reputation and popularity has fallen greatly since initial publication. If we have anything by Hemingway it should be The Sun Also Rises. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Plague

Keep. Important novel by Nobelprice winner Albert Camus. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate as High. Same argument I gave for The Fall. --Sordel 07:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure - more famous than The Fall, but still not that seminal. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Portrait of a Lady

Assign to top Best known novel by Henry James, who is clearly a novelist of the first rank. Could be joined by The Ambassadors, The Golden Bowl and The Wings of the Dove for snob value, but this one has the widest reputation. --Sordel 07:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep at top. Something by James should be at top, and this is the obvious one. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Satanic Verses

Strong keep. Very controversial novel, caused fatwa over Rushdie. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Silverthorn 13:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate to High. It may have caused a stir when it was first published, but in terms of literary importance, it is thought to be inferior to Midnight's Children.--Ibis3 21:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate to high. I agree with Ibis - Midnight's Children is the one to include. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Sorrows of Young Werther

Strong keep. Goethe's masterpiece, along with Faust. Defined the Sturm und Drang period in Germany. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Three Musketeers

Keep. Popular reference. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Silverthorn 11:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Tin Drum

Assign to Top. Major German novel of the Twentieth Century. --Sordel 10:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Assign to top. Most important postwar German novel, I think. john k 18:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Top. Agree with Sordel and john k. Errabee 21:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Trial

Strong Keep. Kafka's masterpiece. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The War of the Worlds

Promote to top. Very influential science-fiction book. Radio adaptation by Orson Welles caused wide-spread panic. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote. Has had significant influence. Silverthorn 12:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote to top. One of the few science fiction classics that is very widely read outside genre specialists. Latest film version only confirms cultural currency. --Sordel 10:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep at top. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Wonderful Wizard of Oz

Keep. Many popular references. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. A children's classic. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Widely known with many popular references. Silverthorn 11:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Titus Groan

Relegate to high. I like Peake, but nothing by him should be of top importance. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rate to high (at best). --Sordel 19:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Treasure Island

Keep. Popular references. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. A children's classic. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea

Strong keep. Everyone has heard of Captain Nemo. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. Most famous by Verne. Not completely sure that's sufficient. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Candidates for inclusion

n.b. please list strictly alphabetically

A Passage to India

Promote to top, although perhaps something else by Forster would be a better choice. john k 20:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

Weak assign to top. Third in the Modern Library list of top 100 novels in English of the 20th century. Widely read, by people who don't have time to read Ulysses (University survey classes, for instance). john k 19:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak assign to high. There's a literary argument for making this top-important, but I especially dislike the argument that it should attain that importance because it is "set". By that criterion, Hard Times would be top-important, and it just isn't. I'd recommend holding off on giving this one top-importance but keep it on the candidates list and reconsider further down the line. --Sordel 21:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that being widely assigned in classes is not a sole criterion. Hard Times is "set" because it's the only one of Dickens' mature novels that is reasonably short (and possibly the shortest of all his novels?). The length issue is partly true of Portrait, but Portrait is also widely recognized as a major work in its own right, unlike Hard Times. john k 21:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Catch-22

Weak assign to top. Number 7 on the Modern Library list. Quite funny, and popular. john k 19:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak assign to top. Widely known, and of course the title itself has entered popular culture as a phrase that someone could conceivably look up in Wiki. Silverthorn 11:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Clarissa

Strong promote to top. This one is considered Richardson's masterpiece and is thought to be the longest novel in English. Influenced much later literature. --Ibis3 22:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak promote to top. I agree with those points, but feel that the promotion might be compromised by the fact that no one seems to read this novel any more. --Sordel 07:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote to top, although I'd prefer Pamela, as the first epistolary novel and the work by Richardson that is currently more likely to be read. john k 18:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Darkness at Noon

Weak promote to top. Number 8 on the Modern Library list. Influential anti-communist work. john k 19:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dead Souls

Promote to top. Listed in many "top 100" lists, a major novel, and a big influence on later Russian novelists. john k 22:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Top As my field of expertise is with Russian literature, I can only acknowledge that Dead Souls is indeed a major novel. I had already considered it to include it here, but thought against it for the simple reason it isn't Gogol's magnum opus. That would be his play The Inspector General, and also his short stories (The Overcoat, Nevsky Prospekt and The Nose) are of at least equal importance. Errabee 23:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Finnegans Wake

Rate as High. Joyce has a pretty clear Top-important novel, and the literary value of FW (a book that is very little read) has long been controversial. --Sordel 18:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rate as high. I think I agree with Sordel. john k 18:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rate as high. Silverthorn 11:28, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Germinal

Assign to top. Zola was one of France's most important novelists of the 19th century, and this is generally considered his masterpiece. john k 18:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great Expectations

Assign to top. Generally seen as one of Dicken's greatest, and, along with David Copperfield, the one most likely to appear as the Dickens work in critical lists. More critically respected than Oliver Twist or A Christmas Carol, more famous than Bleak House. Should go in. john k 22:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Heart of Darkness

Assign to top. Only a novella, but surely one of the most influential and important works of the last century. john k 19:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Invisible Man

Assign to top. Influential work of modernism and one of the more important African-American novels of the 20th century. Widely read in American high schools. john k 19:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Les liaisons dangereuses

Promote to top, most famous French novel of the 18th century, has spawned countless film adaptations. john k 20:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote to top. I agree with john k. Silverthorn 11:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Native Son

Promote to top. Another major African-American novel. john k 20:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nostromo

Weak promote to top Seems to be the Conrad novel which is most frequently cited as his greatest. Another possibility would be Lord Jim. john k 22:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak assign to high Although John is right, there are several counts against this novel. Firstly, critical opinion about Nostromo waxes and wanes notably over time. Secondly its ending is famously flawed. Thirdly, it just isn't as clearly top-important as most of the other novels here. --Sordel 06:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oblomov

Assign to top Another masterpiece from Russia's Golden Age of Literature (19th century).

On the Road

Promote to top. A seminal novel, still widely read. john k 20:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Père Goriot

Assign to top. Probably the best known work by Balzac, one of the most important French novelists (and novelists in general) of the 19th century). john k 18:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sense and Sensibility

Promote to top. Equal to Pride and Prejudice. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rate as high. Not as well-known as Pride and Prejudice Silverthorn 13:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rate as high. S&S has no better a claim to top importance than Emma, Persuasion or Mansfield Park, while P&P has the definite advantage of being widely known and adapted. If S&S is top-important, then we might as well decide to make all Jane Austen's novels top-important. --Sordel 14:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's arguable that all of Austen's novels, save Northanger Abbey, should be of top importance. john k 18:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also say, though, that if we had to pick a #2, it should be Emma, which seems to show up on more lists than any Austen other than P&P. john k 22:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sons and Lovers

Promote to top. Probably most famous work by Lawrence. Number 9 on Modern Library list. john k 19:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Stranger in a Strange Land

Strong promote to Top Arguably Heinlein's most influential work. -- Gizzakk 22:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Promote to top. Thomas Hardy seems to have been overlooked in the top importance listings. Tess is set for public examination, has given rise to a major film, and is regularly regarded as a key late Victorian novel, and as a strong example of the influence of the sensation novel on English literature. --Sordel 07:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote. Probably the best known novel by Hardy, who should be represented. The Return of the Native should perhaps also be. john k 18:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
... and Jude the Obscure. These are cases that will probably be made once we have a fuller and more representative selection of writers and major novels. --Sordel 19:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote to top. Hardy should definitely be represented and this would be the obvious novel in my opinion. It is probably the best known and has had the most influence on popular culture. Silverthorn 11:32, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Betrothed

Promote to top. Not that well known in English, but it's the most important Italian novel of the 19th century, and perhaps the most important Italian novel period. john k 19:04, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Big Sleep

Promote to top. Chandler was tremendously influential in the detective genre, and this is his most famous one. john k 20:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Da Vinci Code

Strong promote to top. Literary not very interesting, but in very popular demand. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak promote to top. Has had major popular impact, but is perhaps of less significant literary influence. Silverthorn 12:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rate as high. Very topical. Give it a year or two and the importance will be minimal. Resources can better be used improving more important novels.--Ibis3 21:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rate as high. As a cultural icon it isn't as influential as Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, etc. It's not that influential currently, and will be forgotten in a few years. As literature it's rubbish with comercial value only.--Rataube 18:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rate as high or lower. Novel has little literary merit and no historical significance (as yet). The fact that an article is often consulted in the short term cannot necessarily be taken to imply that it is of enduring cultural significance. --Sordel 07:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rate as high. Hasn't stood the test of time as yet. john k 18:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The French Lieutenant's Woman

Weak promote to top. Best known novel by John Fowles and a major example of British postmodernism. --Sordel 10:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Assign as high. I don't think this quite meets the standard. john k 18:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Great Gatsby

Assign to top. Gatsby is perhaps the most famous American novel of the 20th century, and is read in school by almost everyone. It is also reasonably well respected critically. john k 19:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The History of Tom Jones, a Foundling

Assign to top. The most famous, and probably the most widely read, 18th century novel. And a wonderfully funny book, too. john k 18:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Magic Mountain

Assign to top. Generall considered Mann's masterpiece, and one of the most important German novels of the twentieth century. john k 19:04, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Man Without Qualities

Assign to top. One of the great German language novels of the last century. Various critics have put it alongside Ulysses and In Search of Lost Time as one of the novels of the century.
Assign to high. It's an unfinished novel, and I can speak from personal experience when I say that even those who put it on their bookshelves don't read it. I agree that it is considered to be a masterpiece, but there are plenty of masterpieces rated high. --Sordel 07:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Moonstone

Assign to Top. Usually cited as the first detective novel in English. --Sordel 10:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Assign to top. As Sordel says, although it's apparently not actually the first detective novel. john k 18:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- The Woman in White is another possibility by Collins. john k 22:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Red and the Black

Assign to top. One of the great French novels of the 19th century, still widely read. john k 18:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to note, The Charterhouse of Parma would be another obvious possibility. john k 22:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Scarlet Letter

Strong Promote to Top. Widely regarded as one of the most important early American novels and frequently used as a cultural reference. --Sordel 10:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong promote. Every American high school student (except me, apparently) has to read the thing. john k 18:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Sound and the Fury

Assign to top. Faulkner's masterpiece. john k 19:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Other Faulkner possibilities are Absalom, Absalom! and As I Lay Dying. john k 22:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde

Assign to top. If anything by Stevenson is to be in, it should be this. john k 20:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Tale of Genji

Assign to top. Arguably the first novel, and obviously the list is currently very heavily weighted towards the west. john k 22:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Way We Live Now

Weak assign to top. Something by Trollope should be included. Other possibilities - Barchester Towers, The Last Chronicle of Barset, The Eustace Diamonds. john k 22:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Things Fall Apart

Assign to top. Generally considered the best novel by Achebe, the best known African novelist. Widely read in American schools, for instance. john k 19:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To The Lighthouse

Assign to top. Woolf's masterpiece, of great significance for its participation in Modernism and Feminist Literature. --Sordel 18:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Assign to top. As Sordel says. john k 18:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Mrs. Dalloway should perhaps also be promoted, as it seems to show up on as many lists as TTL, or possibly even more. john k 23:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tristram Shandy

Promote to top. Major early novel, vastly influential on postmodernism. Article says "one of the greatest comic novels in English, as well as a forerunner for many modern narrative devices". (Not my text by the way!) --Sordel 07:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote to top. As Sordel says. john k 18:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vanity Fair

Promote to top. One of the big Victorian novels, valued for its social satire and authorial manipulation. --Sordel 18:41, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Promote to top. As Sordel says. john k 19:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Waverley

Weak promote. I think something by Scott should be at top importance, and this was the first of 'em. Alternately, there's Ivanhoe, Old Mortality, The Heart of Midlothian. At any rate, Scott invented the historical novel, so he should be represented. john k 19:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Novels previously assigned Top-importance but now reassigned

n.b. please list strictly alphabetically

Gone with the Wind

Weak rerate as high. This entry depends on the popularity of the film; let the film be Top-important. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate as high. Film more significant than the book. Silverthorn 15:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pigeon Post

Rate as mid. While there are classic children's novels that justify Top and High importance, I wouldn't think of this as one of them. --Sordel 18:29, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate to high or medium. One of an enormous series of children's books I've never heard of. Doesn't seem comparable to Moby-Dick or Crime and Punishment
Mid. Agree with Sordel and john k.

Starship Troopers

Strong rerate as mid. The film is well-known, the book itself hardly had any impact on society. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate as High. The novel really furthered the Military Science Fiction genre, the influences can be seen in even Star Wars. Not to mention that it is by Heinlein, which has to count for something. However, I agree that it is probably not deserving of a Top rating when included in the general "novels" category; if this was just science fiction, then probably. -- Gizzakk 22:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong rerate as mid.--Ibis3 21:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong rerate as mid, never heard of it --Jahsonic 23:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Strong rerate as mid Only of interest within a very specialised genre. --Sordel 07:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate as High, Of interest within the genre - but it is elitist to say "very specialised". The fact that someone has not heard of it or doesn't rate the genre does not indicate that the novel is of little significance. Please read the article and you might get the notion of it's significance. Please note I have no particular pro-title allegience here, I am no fan, but it is a highly influencial novel. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 09:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Very specialised" was a response to the argument above that the novel had furthered the Military Science Fiction genre, which seems to me to be a very specific sub-genre of Science Fiction in general. I am not, admittedly, a Science Fiction expert, but at the time that the film came out I had never heard of Starship Troopers whereas I had heard of I, Robot, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, Dune, The Martian Chronicles, Fahrenheit 451, The Time Machine, The Invisible Man etc., none of which are currently rated as Top-important although perhaps they should be. Presumably once the evident classics of Science Fiction have all been rated Top-important it will not be conspicuous when a novel comparatively obscure in broad cultural terms is admitted to this category on its own merits. I accept, nonetheless, that High may be more appropriate for this novel than mid. --Sordel 10:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Swallows and Amazons

Rate as High (at best) Better known (in my estimation) than Pigeon Post but still not sufficiently important, even within the field of children's literature, to belong in this company. --Sordel 18:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate to high or medium. Another of that interminable children's series. john k 18:40, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Return to Top - if only on the basis of it's readership over the years. It has a film based on it and appears in large numbers of lists of children's literature. This isn't about whether we like it, just should it be in the encyclopedia and how much should it! :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 10:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- But is it more worthy of top-importance than Five Children and It, The Railway Children, Peter Pan, The Famous Five, The Secret Garden, The Wind in the Willows, Heidi or any number of other great children's novels? We might get S&A into the top-important category some day, but it would seem to be skipping the queue, surely? --Sordel 11:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Assault

Very weak keep. Well known novel turned into Academy Award winning (foreign) film. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate as High. Never heard of it. --Sordel 08:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate as high. Not very well known. john k 18:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Life and Adventures of Nicholas Nickleby

Rerate as high. Yet another Dickens novels. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak rerate as high. --Ibis3 21:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate as high. --Sordel 07:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Pickwick Papers

Weak rerate as high. Yet another Dickens novel; don't get me wrong, I love Dickens but too much is too much. Errabee 12:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate as high. Whilst Dickens is undoubtedly an important author, I do not believe that justifies rating all of his novels as top. This one I do not believe is of sufficient significance in it's own right to justify the top rating. Silverthorn 13:19, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Weak rerate as high. The only argument for keeping is that this was arguably his debut (ok, so technically Sketches came first).--Ibis3 21:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rerate as high. It's not much read, has no major film and is thought to be minor in terms of actual literary value. With so many candidates for top-importance in Dickens's oeuvre, this is one that really could be relegated. --Sordel 07:29, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]