Talk:Montenegrin language

• Archive 1 (Nov 17 2004-June 14 2006)

Recent edit war

Few notes before it escalates:

1. Western Serbia did use ijekavian dialect—it was the native dialect of Vuk Karadžić. See the map by Pavle Ivic. However, during the course of time, it received ekavian pronunciation by the influence of wider standard in Serbia, so it should be rightfully omitted from the article.
2. "is regarded as a unique example of tolerance in the region". By whom? Clear POV. We should report the events, not interpret them.
3. "but the number of teachers and students actually involved was very small indeed." According to Pobjeda, it included at least 500 Podgorica students. More can be found here – 900 students and 42 professors only in Nikšić do not constitute "a very small number". Duja 09:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It was a native dialect of Karadzic only because of his origins - his parents came from Bosnia and he learned to speak serbian language in the ijekavian dialect spoken there. Ilic' map is considered outdated and inaccurate by linguists today. Be that as it may, Western Serbia has no place in this article, as ijekavian is certainly not spoken in that region now.

I'm not so sure—children usually speak the language of their environment rather than their parents. Ivic's map is indeed outdated, and I removed the reference to Western Serbia. Duja 15:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not a POV, nor interpretation, but a report on the sentiment of the general public in Montenegro (except some right-wing serbian ultranationalists - a pleaonasm, I know, but a well placed one), as well as regional media (Vjesnik is one reputable source) and the OSCE. If you consider the democraticaly elected government, the public, the media and the OSCE as invalid over the disconent of a few dozen ppl, then that is clearly a POV.

The number given - 900 students in Niksic turned out to be a media hoax. A few dozen joined the renegade teachers, but gave up the protest a week later. It IS a very small number indeed compared to the number of people emplyed in education in Montenegro - only 11 teachers + 2 deputy principles in NIksic decaded to persist and got sacked for not turning up on work and using children for political manipulation. That make it a borderline irrelevant info. I doubt it deserves mentioning in an encyclopaedia - do not confuse Wikipedia with an internet forum. Also, the article itslef claims: "This decision resulted in a dozen Serb teachers declaring a strike ...". Duja, your edits are a case of contradictio in adjecto.

In that case, you could give the references, like I did above. I also agree that the info is only borderline relevant. However, the affair was a rather big hussle at the time. However, you also appear confuse Wikipedia with an internet forum; if you say that "sentiment of the general public in Montenegro", refer to Vjesnik and OSCE, "media hoax" etc, you should also provide some evidence.

In case you wonder about my political stance on the issue: personally, I do think that "mother tongue" is a better compromise on the issue, as well as that the strike was largely a political manipulation with children. What I want is to get the facts straight and language neutral. Duja 15:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Wrong

It says over 22% when it should be below 22%. The full-scale figure's 21.53%, so... I guess that there was a bad calculation - it's less, not more. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:10, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The census was 3 years ago — if we could count it now, I'm positive that the percentage would be much closer, if not over, 50%. Duja 15:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Regional variations

Whilst not a native of Montenegro nor a srbski speaker (but a regular visitor), I note that there are significant variations in vocabulary, with variants of Italian words used by those brought up near the Adriatic coast. No doubt a native speaker can expand on this and other variations. For a novice, the principle difference appears for standard srbski appears to be the use of "lj" in place of "l" in words like ljep/lep.

[dz]

Um. Is that Cyrillic ZE being used for [dz] or is it EZH? Because if it's the latter, there's going to be trouble in Unicodeland. Evertype 23:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't get it

If it is said that Vuk Karadzic wrote down the Serbian language, yet he comes from Montenegro doesn't it mean then Serbian is the same thing as Montenegrin and that calling the languages separate just like Bosnian and Croatian is just a political ploy by the ruling governments. I believe that all the languages are the same and should be classified as the same thing. The difference between Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, and Montenegrin is the same as the difference in the English dialects between people from England, The Midwest of America, The East Coast of America, and the American South...its all English just this is all the same. --Happyman22 17:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Really??? :)

--82.117.194.34 01:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Montenegrin Language Characteristics

Someone is trying really, really hard to show how the mentioned characteristics are used in other areas of former Yugoslavia. Noone is trying to deny that, however, that is not what the topic is about. The topic is about the Montenegrin language and its characteristics. So, please keep to the topic. BTW, noone is trying to invent a separate new language. Montenegrin is a new standard, not a new language. As far as I am concerned "Serbian", "Croatian", "Bosnian" and "Montenegrin" have different meaning as adjectives only as different standards of the same language. They are synonyms if they refer to the language (Serbo-Croatian that is), so cool down a little and try to contribute to the knowledge base instead of cheap politics. Regards, Momisan 13:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, your original sentence read "the distinctive characteristics are"... and not all of them were trully distinctive. What is really unique is the Zetan accent (not yet documented with details), ka:, and the sounds. Besides, we were talking about the dialect(s) it was based on, and their characteristics are, as with other dialects, more unique or more shared, from case to case. I'd just assume good faith in this case. Once the language gets a standard, perhaps something more distinctive can be written (but Wikipedia is not a crystal ball). Duja 18:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I am also assuming good faith. OK, as I understand the topic, the language spoken in Montenegro needs to be described. I'll use mathematical analogy (not really accurate but its close enough), as I believe you should be able to handle it: Think of a whole set of Sthokavian (and some Chakavian) characteristics as 3D space and the language in Montenegro as a 2D plane. It is the combination of characteristics that is unique, although a single characteristic might be shared with another dialect. So, lets enumerate them and see what comes out of it. I believe it is closer to the mark than a sweeping statement like "almost all other Serbian and Croatian dialects have it", which doesn't help anyone. Just to touch on the term "distinctive", which obviously wasn't that important as I didn't complain when it was removed, my understanding is that "distinctive" and "unique" are not synonyms, but, let's not get hung up on that.Finally, the term "Montenegrin" language, which is to some like putting a red flag in front of a bull, for now is simply a language spoken in Montenegro. No it doesn't have a standard, so what? Branko Radicevic didn't need a standard to write in Serbian in 19th century, did he? Regards, Momisan 07:12, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I just took a closer look at anon's edits. Yes, you're right—while it should be mentioned where the feature is also encountered, it is also POV to insert "like in (pretty much every) neighboring dialect". There's no need for exaggeration. Duja 09:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I have nothing against mentioning where else is the feature encountered as long as the information is precise (for example: "shto can also be heard in standard Croatian and x,y,z dialects, or around such and such city"). As long as it is in good faith, it is OK.Momisan 12:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed

Moved from the article:

• Three sounds that were left out of the Serbo-Croatian standard and alphabets, when they were created in the 19th century:[ç], [ʝ] and [ʣ]. The standard replaced the sound [ç] with the sj combination (sjedi, sjesti, sjekira, sjever, sjutra, kisjelo, pasje etc.). It is still widely used in the spoken language, even by the educated population. The standard replaced the sound [ʝ] with zj combination (izjelica, izjesti etc.) Nowadays, it is used in only few words. The sound [ʣ] is rarely used.

Sorry Momisan, but you'll have to back this up by citations. First, it makes little sense to talk about Serbo-Croatian standard in the 19th century; at best, we could talk about Vuk's, Daničić's, Gaj's etc. works on orthography. Second, you have to offer the proof that those letters existed in the "standard", i.e. were proposed by some prominent linguists of the time so they could be dropped at all. If the sole intention was to stress that those sounds/letters weren't even considered for inclusion, the paragraph above does not carry the message in an unambiguous manner, and should be rephrased. Duja 13:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

That's OK. Obviously wasn't clear enough. What I was trying to say is that these sounds existed at the time Vuk was composing the cyrillic alphabet. For some reason, Vuk did not allocate separate letters for them, thus, wasn't consistent with his rule of "one sound - one letter". To me cases 'ś'->'sj" and 'ź'->'zj' look like a classical iotation. That is why I think 'kisjelo' isn't hyper-ijekavism. Some good citation on this is welcome. The sound [ʣ] is an interesting one. I could not think of any words in Montenegrin that use it,apart from some colloquialisms, however, many italian words have it (zero, zingara etc.). Perhaps it is an interesting leftover from the past.Momisan 02:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe because Vuk didn't pronounce it as 'ś' himself? Off the top of my head, I assign the feature more to the Zeta dialect rather than Herzegovina/Dubrovnik speaches which Vuk had a significant contact with. You're right, it's a iotation, (but one which wasn't realized in the rest of shtokavian area, and thus left unnoticed by the standards in the wider sense of the word). I'd certainly qualify kisjelo as a "hyper-ijekavism" regardless of whether it's noted as "kisjelo" or "kiśelo"; it's "kiselo" elsewhere (d'uh, I don't have an etymological dictionary to see whether there really was a jat). Duja 13:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps Vuk didn't pronounce ś himself, I don't know, but this sound actually is one of the characteristics of the East-Herzegovina dialect (it's present in speeches of this dialect in Herzegovina, Montenegro, Bosnia, Krajina, and Western Serbia, and I'm not sure about Dubrovnik). But it is quite possible that there was no ś in Trsic speech (Vuk's birthplace), since it is the northest part of East-Herzegovina dialect, close to Shumadija ekavian dialects and Eastern Bosnian šćakavian dialects, which do not feature ś. This makes sense. --Djordje D. Bozovic 13:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yes, I've forgotten to say this: all the other ijekavian speeches of Central South Slavonic diasystem (aka Serbo-Croatian language) have kiselo. Kisjelo is only used in Montenegro, but not always even there. There are Montenegrin dialects that use kiselo, too. And pasje has nothing to do with yat, as well. --Djordje D. Bozovic 13:43, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It looks like its all in the area of speculation. While it is possible that Vuk didn't know about the sounds, I wouldn't underestimate his work to that extent. He travelled widely through Montenegro, also don't forget that he "found" sound 'h' around Dubrovnik area. Anyway, it is all history now. As for pasje, in Montenegro, it is pronounced as paśe. 's'+'i', isn't that an iotation? It is very easy to make a mistake if one doesn't have 'ś' in mind. Now, wait a second... pasje, that is ijekavian, even for the Serbian standard, isn't it?:-)Momisan 00:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I understood you well, but pasje is both ekavian and ijekavian; that -je doesn't stem from a jat, as many other cases. Ekavians don't say "ebati" :-). Duja 08:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ooops. You might be right :-)Momisan 09:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Not every ś originates from s + short yat which is replaced with je. This sound forms whenever s or š comes before j, which doesn't always come from yat. -je is an ending for collective nouns, and is equal for both Ijekavian and Ekavian: both standards have pasje, poprsje, Podunavlje (l + je > lje), lišće (list + je > lisće [tj : ć] > lišće [sć : šć]), žbunje (n + je > nje), grožđe (grozd + je > grozđe [dj : đ] > grožđe [zđ : žđ]). As you can see, other iotated sounds appear, not only ś (lj, nj, ć, and đ). With no yat at all! :) --Djordje D. Bozovic

That was informative. Credit where credit is due:)Momisan 11:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Terminology

I'd say that the more appropriate term would be a "variant" or "variety" of Serbian language (for those who think so). Dialect is not a sociolinguistic concept. It refers mainly to various vernaculars and idioms. Mir Harven 11:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Any relevance whatsoever ?

Here is "Gorski vijenac", original printing: http://alas.matf.bg.ac.yu/~mr99164/tekstovi/gv.html Of course, because he didn't have grapheme /j/, Njegoš writes "long" yat as "ie", and "short" as, well, Roman ě. So, "cijelo djelo" would be "cielo dělo". Any relevance re yat pronunciation (bisyllabic, diphtong) ? Mir Harven 23:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

The bisyllabic ronunciation of long yat differs Montenegrin language from Croatian and Bosnian, which have diphtongal long yat. It's relevant because all these three languages are based on shtokavian ijekavian standard, but as you see there are some differences between Montenegrin ijekavian and Croatian ijekavian. Yat is bisyllabic when long (when forming the group ije) in most Serbian Ijekavian dialects, unlike Croatian, which is diphtongal. For example, Croatian svijet is accented on the vowel e and pronounced almost like it's written svjet (svⁱjêt) - but with a long e, not like dialectal and archaic svjet = savjet, which has short e - since the entire ije group in svijet is a dyphtong, not two different syllables (and no words in Croatian, except some loans from other languages, could be accented on the final syllable). In Serbian Ijekavian, svijet is accented on i (svìjet), since ije group here is considered two syllables (i and je); and same goes for Serbian regarding the final syllable of a word. Njegos used yat only when it's pronounced je (short, so one letter for one syllable), and when it was two syllables - ije - he wrote them using the two letters - ie - following the bisyllabic pronunciation used by the Montenegrins and other ijekavian-speaking Serbs. --Djordje D. Bozovic 12:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd be careful about "most Serbian Ijekavian dialects". I don't think (but I'm open to suggestions) that ije is bisyllabic in Krajina, Lika and Slavonia, which account for majority of ijekavian Serbian speakers. Yes, the standard says so, but it has an inherent bias by Vuk's heritage. I'm born and raised in central Posavina, and I certainly pronounce it as diphthongal. Duja 12:54, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It is certainly bisyllabic in East-Herzegovina dialect, and this ijekavian dialect covers the greatest territory - including Lika, Kordun and Banija, and most of the other parts of Krajina (it is also called Herzegovina-Krajina dialect), but in Slavonia, I agree, it's probably diphtongal. I'm born and today I live in Užice region, where the long yat, the ije group, is very clearly bisyllabic. :) --Djordje D. Bozovic 13:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you're overgeneralizing; "East Herzegovina dialect" (the term I personally deem both stretched and archaic, but let's put that aside) is hardly a rock-solid concept with well-defined boundaries. As you said yourself in the section above, /ś/ is a characteristic only of its southeasternmost part. I maintain that this is also the case with bisyllabic/diphthongal ije (albeit the isogloss is not the same as with /ś/), namely that it's diphthongal also with majority of Krajina speakers. Duja 14:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This is something I've noticed a long time ago. There is a myth (especially among Croatian dialectologists) that "Western Serbs" not only pronounce, but impeccably distinguish between long and short yat. From my experience, Serbs from Croatia and major part of Bosnia, generally pronounce diphtongal yat, and those near Montenegro or Western Serbia (Easternmost Herzegovina, Podrinje, Sandžak,..) are "bisyllabic". Maybe it's an unfair test, but I've frequently encountered Serbs from BH & Hr writing in the "Škarić manner" (always -je-). So I guess the correct inscription of -ije- and -je- has more to do with education than with "natural speech". This is one example (the content is irrelevant, just look for yat reflexes among Serbian commentators): http://www.glassrpske.com/cyrl/?vijest=2705&PHPSESSID=070a45874ac5881e5a16eb42893c4a5e "O Mesicu ne treba trositi rjeci. Obican lupez i beskicmenjak kojem bi i Makijaveli zavidio na beskrupuloznosti i bestidu. Tihic je malo gluplja verzija Mesica, ocigledno nedorasla Silajdzicu. To njegovo spominjanje ustava je smjesno....etc. On the other hand, some comments correctly distinguish between -ije- and -je-. Hmmmm...Mir Harven 14:34, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur. Duja 08:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Just a short comment from me. I am glad we are starting to talk more about the language and less about politics, some interesting facts are starting to come out.Momisan 04:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

So I guess the correct inscription of -ije- and -je- has more to do with education than with "natural speech".

Well, I wouldn't say so. In Western Serbia, people are educated in Ekavian, but when it comes to speaking the traditional language, the long yat gets clearly bisyllabic. And such "bisyllabic Ijekavian" is here certainly the natural speech, nothing to do with education. And I have also noticed that they sometimes regularly put accent on i from the ije group - not only when the word has just these two syllables (like svijet or cvijet), but in other words as well, where it is not necessary because of the final syllable - like dijete, which becomes dijete in pronunciation. When speaking with Montenegrins, I have noticed that they put accent on i of the ije group much more often - I'd say almost always! --Djordje D. Bozovic 18:16, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I trust you, but we didn't refer to Western Serbia, but rather to Bosnia (region), especially Bosanska Krajina and Croatia. I'd say that i in "ije" is (almost) never stressed.
The phenomenon is perhaps most easily analysed in folk songs. Few quick examples: ko to pa·li svije·će i po krč·mi še·će, to je lije·pa Ma·ra... (Nedeljko Bilkić); umrije·ću od bo·la, umrije·ću od bo·la... (Baja Mali Knindža), Dru·ga·ri·ce po·sa·dimo cvije·će (Neda Ukraden). That's the reason why many ijekavian songs are fairly easily "ekavised"; however, with Montenegrin and Herzegovinian decasyllable, ekavization would completely destroy the meter. Duja 09:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Bozovicu, you omitted one crucial piece of information. People living in the Western Serbia are mostly migrants from Montenegro, as your surname itself suggests.Momisan 11:16, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Nope, I'm afraid my family actually descends from Herzegovina. :) My ancestors actually were the Kulićs of Nevesinje, but one of them, named Božo Kulić, was a hajduk here at Zlatibor, and so all his descendants here took the surname Božović after him. However, despite my family history, it is true that many families here have migrated from present-day Montenegro, but certainly not all of them, and certainly not even the most of them. The most families here are actually migrants from Herzegovina, which is the main reason why people from Užice region are everywhere known as Ere (singular Hero or Ero is short from Hercegovac, which is Serbo-Croatian for inhabitant of Herzegovina or a man from Herzegovina). Nevertheless, today Ere usually does not refer to people of Herzegovina, but of Užice region in Western Serbia. --Djordje D. Bozovic 13:31, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know where Era comes from. Still, what you said gives us some idea where is, shall we say, the epicentre of linguistic characteristics we are talking about. My understanding is that many people that lived in Military Frontier in Croatia, before the last war, also came from the same regions as refugees. Momisan 10:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

And yet, I would still say that there was the bisyllabic long yat in Krajina speech (not Bosnian Krajina, but Military Frontier in Croatia). --Djordje D. Bozovic 14:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Disputed section

Please, add references about: --millosh (talk (sr:)) 18:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

1. AFAIK, kisjelo doesn't have jat, but it is like in words medjed and sjutra other kind of characteristics of Montenegrin dialects. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 18:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
2. sto is widely used in Serbian dialects, too. sta is used only when this pronoun is used to make a question (i.e., "ono sto sam radio", "sto( )god si namerio" etc.). So, add some relevant references about your claims. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 18:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
3. supine and infinitive are different forms. So, claim like "The verbs in infinitive end in 't', like in "pjevat"." is nonsens. Also, you added present form in "Serbian variant" (pjevas is present, pjevati is infinitve). --millosh (talk (sr:)) 18:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

So, if you want to make this article well, please, do not behave like a POV pusher and use some linguistic literature instead. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 18:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

1. AFAIK too, kisjelo didn't have a jat, but it is apparently perceived as having one. That classifies it as a "hyper-ijekavism". Here's an interpretation: "...jer je u ovoj rijeci jos od praslovenskog doba postojao dubletizam izvornog e i jata. Ipak nece biti opravdano ovaj lik uvoditi u standardni izraz jer ...". While we don't have an official definition of "hyper-ijekavism", I'd say that kisjelo certainly classifies as one, under an ad-hoc definition of "having a reflex of jat where the original jat disappeared, didn't exist, or reflexed in a different way elsewhere".
2. Who said that što is not a Serbian form? I ammended the article to clearly say that što is used for interrogative form. In Serbia and Bosnia, što is used only as relative pronoun, šta being used for interrogative
3. The reference to supine was inserted by yourself. I admit it was the first time I heard about it. I fixed the spelling and linked, but, if Supine article is to be trusted, supine is a form of verbal noun rather than a pure synonym for infinitive. Since apparently we're talking about the use and form of classical infinitive, I think it's better and clearer to state that "the infinitive lacks the terminal 'i'" than to involve the fairly obscure concept of supine. The concept is formalized in Slovenian, but I don't think it applies to Shtokavian as-is.

Duja 08:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

1. As I said earlier, kisjelo comes from kiśelo. When looked from that prospective, it is all crystal clear. It is a hyper-iotation, in my opinion.
2. Agree with Duja. Don't understand where the problem is.
3. For me, concept of supine is clear and it is actually an accurate description of the way Montenegrin use the infinitive. It is a verbal noun as in "Oli pjevat, hajdemo igrat etc." Serbians (at least in Serbia) don't tend to use infinitive in this manner much, ""Hajdemo da igramo" is more common. Isn't this Supine? As for infinitive, it is a broader term, and it does terminate in 't'. That is why I think that both supine and infinitive should be mentioned.

Momisan 11:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

1. Momisan, you got it the wrong way round (or at least, that's how you expressed yourself). "kiśelo" comes from "kisjelo" (via iotation), which in turn comes from old Slavic "kisĕl" (with jat), which is an alternate form of "kisel". That later form apparently was prevailing elsewhere, and yielded "kiselo" elsewhere.--Accepted.Momisan 13:45, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
2. .
3. You're right, I didn't think about "Oli pjevat" in this way. However, Serbian form "hoćeš li da pjevamo" is not infinitive—some linguists describe it as "subjunctive" while others refer to it as present. Both pure-infinitive form ("hoćeš li pjevati?") and the subjunctive form are acceptable, but I'd guess that the subjunctive would prevail in Serbia while infinitive/supine in the West. Duja 13:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

About verb forms for Momisan: --millosh (talk (sr:)) 22:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

1. "pjevati" -- infinitive --millosh (talk (sr:)) 22:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
2. "pjevat" -- supine --millosh (talk (sr:)) 22:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
3. "da pjevas" -- subjunctive/present --millosh (talk (sr:)) 22:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed {{disputed}} tag because (1) Duja found source for jat in kisjelo; (2) I think that I realized that Momisan didn't know what supine is; (3) Duja found right construction fo sto/sta problem. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 22:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Restored {{disputed}} tag. If your intention is to get to the bottom of "supine" question, why don't you give us your explanation. What is the difference between supine and infinitive, and why do you think pjevat is supine, not infinitive? The wiki page on infinitive for slavic languages mentions that in fact most of the slavic languages have infinitives ending in 't' or 'ć'.Momisan 00:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia article on supine clearly says that it is a verbal noun. (In grammar, a supine is a form of verbal noun used in some languages...; ...can only be used in the accusative and ablative...; ...often misnamed "infinitive", though it is not such...). "Pjevat" is not a verbal noun - it's a verb. In Serbo-Croatian we refer to it as krnji infinitiv, which can be translated as "shorter infinitive", for example. It is a kind of the infinitive (in Montenegrin it is the only existing infinitive form itself), and not a different grammatical category, such as supine. I don't see why you need to 'westernize' our grammar when not necessary (and this includes the term "subjunctive" for da + present construction, too - no relevant Serbian linguist has ever refered to it as subjunctive). --Djordje D. Bozovic 13:06, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I've re-read the supine article and it's still not clear to me whether the concept is unambiguously applicable outside of Latin. Even if it is, it's probably better to stick to the languages where it's officially accepted as such; usage described in Slovenian verbs is quite similar to Serbo-Croatian, but I'd be cautious to apply it here; as you said, it would probably be better to remove it altogether.
As for the Serbian "subjunctive" issue, I confess to spreading the (mis)conception around Wikipedia. It is quite true that it's seldom if ever referred to as "subjunctive" among Serbian linguists, but I can't help but notice the obvious similarity to the definition of subjunctive, as well as apparent economy of using single word to ubiquitous and ambiguous "modal form of present" or like. Heck, verbs in sentences such as "ja ću da idem", "ja bih da vidim" or "da se nosiš u..." are clearly not indicative mood, and are so specific for most Serbian speeches (excluding Western ones, to an extent) (as well as Bulgarian and Macedonian, and other Balkansprachbund languages) that they desperately need some kind of unambiguous terminology, even if stretched one. Duja 13:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

P.S. For further reading: see Balkansprachbund#Avoidance of infinitive and Balkansprachbund#Bare subjunctive constructions. Duja 13:55, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Hm, your examples are not the best. All the three of them only partly fit this category. Here's how:

"ja cu da idem" - future is formed by the present tense of verb ht(j)eti (usually the short form) and the infinitive. Thus, both Eastern and Western forms would be "ja cu ici". "ja cu da idem" is used in Torlakian dialect, from where it came to common speech in Serbia, but still the use of infinitive prevails in making the statements about future. "Oli pjevat" is the future form, too (just, it's interrogative). And that's why most Serbians would rather say "Hoces li pevati" and not "Hoces li da pevas", which is rather Torlakian, and although it's getting more used lately, it's still at some extent iliteral. Nevertheless, "Hoces li da pevas?" is used in Serbia just like that, as a sentence itself (the sentence of intention - see below), because then it's not the future, but two separated verbal forms (present and da + present construction), and still the infinitive is allowed, too. However, when used as future, for example "Hoces li pevati sutra na priredbi?" infinitive is more normal to appear. --Djordje D. Bozovic 14:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

"ja bih da vidim" - what would you say that the 'Western' form is? "ja bih vidio"? "ja bih volio vidjeti"? No, all these three forms are equal in both Eastern and Western common speeches; the first one being used for present, the second for past, and the third in poetry and literature when some literary style is needed. The only possible way to escape using "ja bih da vidim" in Western form is to use "ja bih vidio" for both present and past, which is not necessary. This is the potential mode, and is different from what we discuss. --Djordje D. Bozovic 14:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

"da se nosis" - this phrase certainly doesn't replace the imperative "nosi se" in Serbia; it is rather short of "voleo bih da se nosis" (which is the same as the example described above), "zelim da se nosis", etc. Yet, there are some cases when "da se nosis" entirely replace the imperative - but only in Torlakian dialect. In other speeches of Serbia imperative is well preserved and not replaced with da + present. So, this was not a good example, especially because it has nothing to do with the infinitive at all, and that was the point. :) --Djordje D. Bozovic 14:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

A fine example of replacing the infinitive with da + present construction in Serbia would be "idem p(j)evati" vs. "idem da pevam". Here you can ask "što/šta ides raditi?", and thus the infinitive or the da + present construction, roughly spoken, means the object of the sentence. Of course, a verb cannot be an object, only nouns can. It makes us think that this actually may be the gerund or supine. But it is uncorrect to say that Montenegrin "pjevat" is supine, and "pjevati" is not. They both (pjevat and pjevati) are infinitives, but they can be described as supines (both of them) when used in indirect object (actually, when used in the sentences of intention - nam(j)erne or finalne recenice in Serbo-Croatian). --Djordje D. Bozovic

So, only in the sentences of intention the Western speeches use strictly infinitive, while the Eastern use both infinitive and da + present. In the easternmost part of Shtokavian area - in Torlakian dialects - infinitive is regularly replaced with da + present. In other dialects of Serbia both infinitive and da + present are allowed and used, but in the West only the infinitive is used. Regarding the sentences of intention only! In other cases, da + present can be used even in the West, and in Montenegro as well. --Djordje D. Bozovic 14:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I was digressing from the initial subject (and now you're digressing even further :-) ). My point was not that the "subjunctive/present" (for lack of a better word) replaces only the infinitive, but that it can also extend into the future (ja ću ići), conditional (htio bih vidjeti), and imperative (nosi se...) – the bracketed constructions are likely ones in spoken Croatian, Bosnian, and "Western Serbian" (in the wide sense of the latter). In other words, the "present" is not limited to indicative but crosses well into other moods and tenses. While I concur with most of your elaboration above, I'd also add that those "da-constructs" are far more widespread than in Torlakian (where they're used pretty exclusively), and affect a greater part of the Serbian and to an extent Bosnian vernaculars. While linguistic purists might raise an eyebrow in disgust on those, the fact is that they're fairly well present in colloquial speeches. Your points about "sentences of intention" (I'd say, modal verbs in general, although in a wider sense than in English) are appreciated.
I also agree with your analysis of supine vs. infinitive. Duja 15:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Bozovicu, I have the feeling this is the definitive text on supine:-) To summarise my understanding: infinitive can be seen as supine, in the sentences of intention only. The infinitive in Montenegrin always ends in 't'. Momisan 02:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, that was a bit pushy removing the "disputed" marker! Don't want to split ends here,however, just to highlight that the used terminology can be seen as Serbo-centric. krnji infinitiv or short infinitive, implicitly suggests that it is incomplete, the piece is missing ... As I ponted out before, most other Slavic languages in fact have the same form of infinitive as Montenegrin. It is in fact Serbo-Croatian that has one letter too many ('i'). From the point of view of Serbo-Croatian, it might be short version, but, not from the wider point of view (English). Therefore, I ask for the term short-version to be removed and just state that infinitive ends in 't', like how it was at the beginning. Momisan 02:04, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I dislike having big "disputed" tags about really minor issues; I think that "short infinitive" vs. "ends in 't'" is splitting hairs—you were certainly welcome to revert the expression back if you had found it inappropriate. This is a free encyclopedia, you know :-). Besides, I (consciously or not) added the quotes around "short", indicating it's a description rather than a "mutilation of the 'right thing'". After all, this phenomenon of infinitive shortening is so common all around (esp. in West) that it probably was very close to be included in standards (I have no sources to back that up, though). Duja 09:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...

Ajmo ovako... Potrosim uvek enormno vreme pokusavajuci sklopit ;) recenice na engleskom. Ovo ovde nije neka posebno problematicna stvar (u ovom tekstu ima problematicnijih, kao sto je poistovecivanje crnogorskog jezika i dijalekata koji se govore u Crnoj Gori), a cini mi se da Momisan drzi gard bez preterane potrebe... --millosh (talk (sr:)) 18:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Dakle, supin je "kratki infinitiv". Makar kad je rec o slovenskim jezicima. Takav je postojao jos u zajednickom slovenskom i nije u dijalektima u Crnoj Gori (i drugim dijelektima) to stiglo s Marsa, nego upravo kao ostatak te osobine. Mislim da se mozete o supinu uputiti u prvoj knjizi Staroslovenski jezik koju je napisao (neki) Nikolic (zaboravio sam mu ime). Dakle, prihvatljivo je napisati nesto u smislu "supin (kratki infinitiv)", mada je i to "kratki infinitiv" malo besmisleno jer vec postoji oblik koji je druga kategorija (usput, i infinitiv je glagolska imenica). --millosh (talk (sr:)) 18:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Drugo, Momisane, pokusaj da podrazumevas dobru volju. Ako pogledas Dujine i moje izmene, verujem da ces moci zakljuciti da nemamo nista protiv politicke volje dela Crnogoraca da svoj jezik nazivaju crnogorskim. Nemamo nista ni protiv toga da se naznace razlike medju dijalektima i sl. Problem je i u tome sto ovaj clanak uredjujete vas dvojica Crnogoraca koji niste lingvisticki obrazovani (ti i CrnaGora, kako mi se cini). Onda stvarno imam odbojnost prema prihvatanju "lingvistickih fakata" koje sami unosite; a, eto, ume da se desi da u tome i previdim neku stvarnu cinjenicu koju ste uneli. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 18:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Dakle, hajde da razresimo te stvari. Postoji gomila literature i na Internetu i mozemo ovaj clanak napraviti vrlo valjanim. Licno mislim da treba napraviti i clanke kao sto su zetsko-sjenicki dijalekat i istocnohercegovacki dijalekat, u kojim bismo opisali detaljno osobine dijalekata. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 18:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Usput, licno smatram da je solidno besmisleno trazenje posebnog lingvistickog identiteta na prostoru novostokavskih normi. Identiteti su kulturni i politicki i jedino je smisleno njih isticati. Ljudi nam se smeju kada shvate o kakvim razlikama pricamo :) Dakle, crnogorski jezik jeste politicka realnost (kao i srpski, hrvatski i bosanski), ali su lingvisticke razlike medju svim standardnim jezicima smesne. Uz to, istocnohercegovacki dijalekat, onaj kojim se govori u mozda pola Crne Gore predstavlja osnovicu svih novostokavskih standardnih jezika. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 18:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Dragi moj prijatelju, odgovoricu za tebe na "Srpskom" :-) Ono sto se tebi cini kao gard je jednostavno pogled iz Crnogorske perspektive. Ja razumijem da mozda imas problema da ga shvatis ili prihvatis, medjutim, ti najvjerovatnije nijesi morao od malih nogu da korigujes svoj maternji jezik da bi pisao "knjizevnim" jezikom, kao sto to moraju Crnogorci. Kako bi se ti osjecao da ti od sad neko nametne da je sklopit knjizevni a sklopiti nekakav arhaizam? Svaki put kad izgovoris ono sklopit, nesto te zacne medju rebra... E, tako je nama, prijatelju, svaki dan. Interesuje me dali bi ti i onda razlike izgledale smijesno. Osim mene i Crne Gore, ovdje ne vidim ljude kojima je Crnogorski maternji. Znaci, samo nas dvojica mozemo ovom clanku da donesemo taj kvalitet. Sto se tice lingvistickog obrazovanja, niko, bar ne ja, tvrdi da smo profesionalni lingvisti, medjutim ja vjerujem da je solidno opste obrazovanje sasvim dovoljno da bi se moglo saradjivati sa nama. Zbog toga su neophodni i ljudi poput Bozovica i Duje da bi se tekst na kraju profesionalno uoblikovao. Kad bi se uredjivanje teksta ostavilo samo tebi, Bozovicu ili Duji, izgubila bi se posebnost, jer je vi iz vase perspektive i ne mozete vidjeti. Zato ja ne vidim u ovom trenutku jednu osobu koja bi objedinila sve neophodne sastojke za dobar tekst. Saradnja je neophodna. Momisan 01:46, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

• Znaci, samo nas dvojica mozemo ovom clanku da donesemo taj kvalitet.

Netačno. Wikipedija je delo zajedničkog rada. Niko nema posebno pravo u odnosu na nekog drugog da donosi sud o kvalitetu članka. Saradnja je svakako neophodna, ali ne sme doći do tzv. POV-a. Još je gore kada je članak pola sa jednim pogledom, a pola sa drugim pogledom na istu stvar. Idealni članak bi trebalo da ima neutralan stav.

• Sto se tice lingvistickog obrazovanja, niko, bar ne ja, tvrdi da smo profesionalni lingvisti, medjutim ja vjerujem da je solidno opste obrazovanje sasvim dovoljno da bi se moglo saradjivati sa nama.

Tačno. Naravno da možete unositi sve što vam padne na pamet u članak, ali ovom članku su potrebni EKSPERTI. Zato se uzdržavam od bilo kakvih unosa u članak. Jedino možeš videti da sam dosta davno unosio neke izmene, uglavnom ispravljajući očigledne greške i štiteći članak da bude a) neutralan, b) razumljiv i laiku (mmiloshe, što se očekuje od enciklopedijskog članka). Isto tako svako ko nije ekspert svaki svoj unos mora da triput da vaga pre nego što ga unese u članak.

Konačno, kada unosiš izmenu u članak na engleskoj Wikipediji, tačnije na bilo kojoj Wikipediji, ostavi po strani sve osećaje. Članak i treba da bude suvoparan. Ako unosiš izmene, a nešto te žacka u rebrima, najverovatnije će i čitaoca nešto da žacne, možda na drugi način. Mora se misliti i na to.

Isto tako mislim da je ovom članku potrebno jedno detaljno iščitavanje, jer mislim da se pomalo stilski izgubio, odnosno da stil izlaganja varira kroz članak.RockyMM 12:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Vidim ima i posmatraca... Na ovakve komentare necu trositi(zac!) rijeci.Momisan 13:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

OK. Ovde postoje dva momenta (mislim na tvoj prvi odgovor). Pocecu od drugog: --millosh (talk (sr:)) 00:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Niko ne kaze da ovde vi trebate biti iskljuceni iz rada na clanku. Stavise, mislim da sam i gore rekao da je vrlo korisno imati nekog ko stvari gleda iznutra i ko ima pristupa materijalu koji nam moze clanak napraviti boljim. Dakle, niko ne dovodi u pitanje vase ucesce. Samo sam ti naznacio da valja podrazumevati dobru volju. Posto sam video da si u gardu misleci da zelim da objasnjavam "kako je crnogorski zapravo srpski". (Usput, podrazumevanje da jedan jezik nesto drugo je izuzetno problematicna kategorija. Svako ima pravo na svoj politicko-jezicki identitet.) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 00:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Prva stvar se tice onog sto osecas kao svoju ugrozenost standradnim jezikom. Ufff... I ja sam se osecao ugrozenim standardnim jezikom zato sto je jednom Beogradjaninu misaona imenica da razlikuje kratke akcente, kao i da ustanovi gde se nalaze postakcenatske duzine. Ako si iz istocnohercegovackog govornog podrucja, tu si u znatnoj prednosti u odnosu na mene. Imaj, takodje, na umu da su mnogi ljudi i po Srbiji i po Hrvatskoj i danas izlozeni jos vecoj jezickoj represiji jer se njihovi dijalekti, vrlo razliciti od standardnih jezika, smatraju seljackim, nizim, smesnim. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 00:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Poenta je ovde da su ljudi koji se bave jezickom politikom skloni da preko jezicki hiperkorektnih osoba maltretiraju svakog ko ne govori kako treba. To je jedan oblik represije koji nikako nije valjan i iz koga proizilazi mnogo losih osecanja. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 00:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Mogao bih o ovome duze, ali bih se vratio na clanak: ako postoje problemi ili nesuglasice oko nekih stvari u clanku, hajd da to resimo podrazumevajuci dobru volju druge strane. Uvek se mozemo razjasniti na nekoj od novostokavskih normi ;) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 00:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Drago mi je da smo se slozili. Momisan 06:15, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Infinitiv može imati osobine imenice, npr. Jako je želio kupiti tu knjigu (objekat), Razmisliti je preporučljivo (subjekat), ali to ne znači da je infinitiv imenica. To je glagol, bez obzira što se može upotrijebiti kao imenica. --Djordje D. Bozovic 13:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I dalje se ne slažem da se crnogorsko pjevat spram standardnog pjevati može nazvati supinom. Iako su u praslovenskom postojali dvojaki oblici - infinitiv s dužim i supin s kraćim nastavkom, u onome što pretenduje da bude standardni crnogorski postoji samo jedan oblik - pjevat, učit, radit, moć - i on je tu infinitiv. U crnogorskom je to infinitiv (takav je, to je jedini oblik infinitiva), a zvati ga supinom znači da postoji i oblik infinitiva sa dužim nastavkom (pjevati, moći), za koji je oblik tipa pjevat i moć supin. A to znači da je crnogorski zapravo dijalekat onog jezika u kome je standardni infinitiv s nastavcima -ti i -ći, tj. srpskog ili hrvatskog, a to je POV. Kada biste otvorili gramatiku crnogorskog jezika, za koju nisam siguran da li je još uvijek odštampana, ne biste našli da su glagolski oblici pjevat i moć supini, već infinitivi. Takav je crnogorski infinitiv. A pjevat je supin sa srpske ili hrvatske tačke gledišta. Sa crnogorske, to je takav i jedini - infinitiv. --Djordje D. Bozovic 13:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)