Talk:Earl Doherty/Archive 1
This doesn't seem very NPOV...
Oh dear! This might have been an interesting article, but the author it wrote it in such a way as to undermine its credibility and make it sound OTT POV (as s/he might say. Needs serious rewriting & culling or else it is going to end up on the Votes for Deletion page very soon. STÓD/ÉÍRE 03:42 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)
This article is getting more embarrassingly OTT every time it is getting tough! (*sigh*) STÓD/ÉÍRE
Zoe put it on VFD, but I thought replacing it with a stub was a better way to encourage an NPOV article. We'll see how it goes. -- Tim Starling 06:37 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)
Gack. I just scanned the old article. It was not only extremely POV, but used extremely unscholarly language and just was terribly written. I agree it needed drastic pruning. jaknouse 14:46 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)
I've reverted (again) to Tim Starling's stub. The other version is SO biased, dreadly written and POV it beggars belief. I've transferred in the external links. At least they are neutral, about the only thing in that dreadful article. STÓD/ÉÍRE 21:25 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)
I've added a message on the bottom of the page asking the original contributor to join our discussion. It's ugly, but it's my hope that if we can get him/her to understand the idea of NPOV, s/he will be able to write an article far better than my microstub. The anonymous contributor said at one stage "It's well done and has no POV since it is only explaining Doherty's POV". This is a simple misconception I would like the chance to correct. -- Tim Starling 06:59 Mar 26, 2003 (UTC)
Removed the following text, which is heavily POV and seeks to show that Doherty is correct. It is not for Wikipedia to say or imply he was right, merely in a neutral manner his claims. STÓD/ÉÍRE 20:30 Mar 26, 2003 (UTC)
As Doherty explains about himself he has a degree in Ancient History and Classical Languages.Doherty was introduced to the idea of a mythical origin of Jesus when he studied in London under Professor G.A. Wells, who has authored a number of books defending this theory.He has since been interested in the subject and the findings of his book were the result of a research that lasted for almost 20 years.His working knowledge of Greek and Latin and his basic, as described by him, knowledge of Hebrew and Syriac has allowed him to study the New Testament and various related contemporary sources in their original languages.In the tradition of historical revisionism he has proceeded in re-evaluating those sources and re-interpredating them according to the methods used in the study of modern history and not theology.Doherty currently (2003) lives in Canada and continues to take part in scholarly discussions of Jesus historical existence and his theory has raised some interest among those interested in the subject.
I actualy added this paragraph myself mainly using Doherty's autobiographic notes.Care to explain what part of the text you find as biased?I tried to add his qualifications and an explanation of how he came to this conclusion and not discussing the validity of his claims.I tried not to include my own opinion besides that his book mainly interests those already interested in the subject.Any ideas on how to improve on the text? User: Dimadick
A suggested rewrite.
Doherty has a degree in Ancient History and Classical Languages. He was introduced to the theory of the mythical origin of Jesus when he studied in London under Professor G.A. Wells, who has authored a number of books propounding this theory. Doherty has a working knowledge of Greek and Latin and a basic knowledge of Hebrew and Syriac. He claims that this has allowed him to study the New Testament and various related contemporary sources in their original languages, he further arguing that his approach is based on a historical rather than a theological approach to historic religious texts and is in line with historical revisionism.
Doherty currently (2003) lives in Canada and continues to take part in scholarly discussions of Jesus historical existence. His theory has raised some interest among those interested in the subject.
Fine with me.It keeps all information Doherty gives about himself.If it is more acceptable add it to the article. User: Dimadick
I am the author of the original article on Doherty. I didn't write the above paragraph, but now that I see it I think it must also be included. It is NOT POV! It only explains his qualifications! What kind of **??!! 'editor' would snip this? STARLING, Jtdrl, whoever you are, you are DUMB! You don't understand the very concept of NPOV yourselves! Every nonfiction book article has some kind of author qualification paragraph! Obviously, if Doherty didn't have knowledge of ancient languages, and studied under an eminent scholar, and have spent over 20 years studying the subject before writing the book - then the above para. would be a falsehood, a lie. But if it is true, it is not POV to list one's qualifications to write about a subject! So F* OFF, self-appointed censors!
As to my article, which has been snipped three times now, the last time gave it all away. Whoever is doing the snipping has NEVER READ DOHERTY! What outrageous gall to attempt to edit something one isn't qualified to edit! The qualification problem all belongs to the editor-snippers! Doherty's thesis is that it wasn't PAUL who wrote the gospels and invented Jesus Christ, it was his FOLLOWERS! The thesis of Doherty is that Paul NEVER HEARD of the Jesus of the gospels! Paul died in 60-something A.D., and the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and it was after 70 A.D. that the gospels started appearing. Geesh! What sad ignorance and stupidity of the snipper-editor! He/she should wear a bag on his/her head! I have attempted to fix the article one last time. From now on any attempt to edit something one has not read will be considered a malicious act with no principles behind it. Not that it matters much, since nobody respects Wikipedia's scholarship anyway, and few will likely read this article on Doherty when they could just go to his own web site :) Years from now Doherty will be read, not Wikiwikitickitacki :)
Anybody who thought this was meant to be a fair, balanced encyclopædic article has had their illusions shattered by the above rant. S/he obviously thinks we are hear to proclaim the truth of Dohertyism and win converts. Not on wiki you don't. I'm sure you can find other website who take such stuff.
There is no problem with having stuff on Doherty here. All that required is balance, NPOV and scholarship. The bit you keep adding in presumes Doherty is right, includes no qualifications to statements, and then lists his CV to prove that he is right. That isn't how you write an NPOV article. Tone in down, don't state or imply that Doherty has proven something, just state what he alleges and that it is a controversial analysis. Leave it to the reader to decide if he is right or wrong. His qualifications are useful if written right. Quotes from a dust jacket are POV, by definition. If you can produce a fair, balanced article then it will have no problems here. But if all you want to do is write propaganda, go elsewhere. And if you react with the sort of rude abuse above you'll simply be banned and end up being able to contribute nothing. STÓD/ÉÍRE 23:05 Mar 26, 2003 (UTC)
Jtdir: YOU'RE SICK! Your above rant could be used on an article about any author's works. The author is controversial, that's all. I've complained about you according to channels and hope you're banned! You simply cannot be reasoned with. At the most you could have inserted an occasional "according to the author" or "it's the author's view that", not deleted any attempt to explain his views because their mere exposition obviously DISTURBS YOU, and you think you're a self-appointed CENSOR with an obvious AXE TO GRIND. Was it YOU who decided to write your own article that is so ludicrously ignorant that it claims that Paul wrote the gospels after the year 70 A.D.? He died in the 60s! You have zero knowledge of the subject, you never read Doherty yet you presume to write the whole article? What's the matter, did JESUS talk to you in your dreams and tell you to WIN ONE FOR the GIPPER? I repeat: YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. This is your last warning. No more will be posted about this article, or you. Doherty should see your tripe article that you and/or your partner Salsa Shark repeatedly revert to over better articles and have a good laugh. All your articles in WP are suspect now. It's your reputation on the line.
I have protected the article, to put an end to the edit war. Please discuss your proposed changes here. If any 2 or more contributors agree on a particular change, a sysop will make it for you. --Uncle Ed 23:39 Mar 26, 2003 (UTC)
Well done on protecting the article, Ed. Everyone else sees that there is a problem with the above contributor's add ins but him. (PS: given that he as a contributor's account but is not using it, is he banned or something?) He needs in any case to take a valium and calm down and not make an even bigger ass than he has made of himself here. The article will do as it just fine. STÓD/ÉÍRE 23:45 Mar 26, 2003 (UTC)
I am afraid that it won't do in its present version.Not because it is a stub but because the only information given this far is erroneus.I spend some time reading Doherty's texts earlier today.A major point of his theory is that Paul never heard of Jesus and that therefor Jesus was invented sometime after Paul's death.The article as written now implies that Doherty theorises that Paul created Jesus himself.And though you might be angry with the original contributor's attacks on you he does have a point in saying that Paul is supposed to have died before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.He wouldn't be around to create anything. Its a misrepresentation of Doherty's theory.But I would suggest for everyone to calm down before posting another reply.The contents of this article should be discussed in a reasonable maner instead of a heated argument. User: Dimadick
This was an edit conflict merge, I haven't read Jtdirl's comment above, but I really have to go right now. I have a meeting starting 5 minutes ago.
I've made a unilateral change here, I hope I haven't offended anyone too much. Let me explain why.
The anonymous author said:
- Doherty's thesis is that it wasn't PAUL who wrote the gospels and invented Jesus Christ, it was his FOLLOWERS! The thesis of Doherty is that Paul NEVER HEARD of the Jesus of the gospels! Paul died in 60-something A.D., and the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and it was after 70 A.D. that the gospels started appearing. Geesh! What sad ignorance and stupidity of the snipper-editor! He/she should wear a bag on his/her head! I have attempted to fix the article one last time.
Yes, you're quite right, anon. Sorry, I had no idea what I was talking about, and I have changed the article back to one of your revisions accordingly. Also, I thought your qualifications bit was fine too. Perhaps Jtdirl has more at stake here than I. The idea that the whole story was made up after Paul died seems relatively plausible to me.
But for crying out loud, anon. CALM DOWN. Take a few deep breaths. I have to go now, I will be back in half an hour or so to sort this out.
Tim Starling 23:58 Mar 26, 2003 (UTC)