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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Gadfium (talk | contribs) at 03:36, 2 December 2004 (rv user test). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
The page is to discuss the Main Page only


Archived talk

Archives of older material from this talk page: Archives 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13.

The layout of the Main Page underwent a significant redesign, implemented on 23 Feb 2004. Talk archives 1-13 relate to the old design. Archives after this date: 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28.

Talk pages specifically dealing with layout and design, or alternative designs for the Main Page:

credibility

i'm wondering how credible this site is. I'm wondering how many people are actually attacking this site with intentional false information. I don't mean vandalism but sabotage. I have seen a study that suggests that many points of view can often narrow down to the correct point of view, but according to a recent article, the page on Alexander Hamilton has gone the opposite direction. If there really is a sabotage attempt, you may want to look for a nondestructive method of stopping it.

The credibility of Wikipedia compared to traditional encyclopedias is something that is discussed on this site and there is much to debate about. This debate won't be resolved any time soon, but should be noted that many news sources have written positively about wikipedia. You can see awards and news clippings on the wikimedia trophy page and a more complete listing of news clippings here.
The is a problem with the wikipedia philosophy that is difficult if not impossible to solve. The problem of truth. Wikipedia will never contain the truth because TRUTH is not about democracy or concensus. On Wikipedia, the majority will write what suits their desires. But we all know that even if only 1 person in the whole world knows the truth about a certain topic, it doesn't cease being true. Wikipedia has become a Point of View archive. True articles are watered down and mutilated to appeal to the majority who disagree with it. False articles are endorsed by the majority that don't know better. Intellectual honesty is not a big component which is unfortunate. Of course there are a few good articles but the trend is sadenning. --Minkwe 22:13, 01 Dec 2004 (ETC)

Well, Wikipedia has no basis on any logic or scientific apporoach. That makes it possible to maintain and administrate information that can be contradictory to itself. NPOV is a try to cut senseless information, but it fails, because giving room to different ideas what is is not what is.

Highlights include:

  • Top 10 reference sites (award) - The UK Daily Mirror, Oct. 17, 2003
  • Top 100 Top Websites You Didn't Know You Couldn't Live Without (award)- PC Magazine, Apr. 20, 2004
  • Web User Awards 2004. "Best Factual Website". Joint winner with BBCi News. From Web User, a UK Internet magazine.
  • "One of the best reference resources on the Web..." (Andrew Kantor, USA Today.com, Mar. 26, 2004)
  • "One of the most reliably useful sources of information around, on or off-line." (BBC News, Apr. 23, 2004)
  • "Surprisingly Good", (The Economist, June 10, 2004)
  • "...Wikipedia is clearly one of the Internet's top five information tools. No other free online resource -- none -- can give you such a quick and useful briefing on practically any subject you can think of.", (Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun Times, July 20, 2004)
  • According to a Wall Street Journal article from February 2004, researchers have found that there are frequent instances of vandalism at Wikipedia, but that these are often quickly resolved:
"Recent research by a team from IBM found that most vandalism suffered by Wikipedia had been repaired within five minutes. 'We were surprised at how often we found vandalism, and then surprised again at how fast it was fixed,' says Martin Wattenberg, a researcher in the IBM TJ Watson Research Center, in Cambridge, Mass." [1]
  • "The truth is that Wikipedia reveals what is normally hidden in an encyclopedia: the countless decisions that lie behind each entry. The only difference is that in Wikipedia, the decision-making never stops and the debates are often robust to say the least." the Guardian (UK)

--Nectarflowed 21:19, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The problem are newly created articles, as they have no-one watching them. Sure, obvious nonsense gets deleted, but subtle mistakes survive. It happened a couple of times that I created an article, accidentially containing false information. If I hadn't noticed and gone back to fix it, it would probably have remained there for a long time, because my article passed the superficial 'no-nonsense', and after that, nobody was watching it. I think, nay, know, there is a lot of false information in WP. I guess it will asymptotically improve over time, but I am afraid not asymptotically approaching 100%, but maybe 90% or 95%. WP will never be error-free.dab 14:48, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But then again, neither will Encyclopedia Brittannica Gkhan 18:23, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

It's interesting how people regard Wikipedia as having a credibility problem, but other traditional encyclopedia's are assumed to be "right". It reminds me how the population during the Great War regarded newspapers as truthful, and believed everything that was printed, despite the propaganda that was pumped out, distorting the truth. The skepticism that accompanies a Wikipedia reader, along with the discussion pages, and editing history, provide more valuable information than a standard page. Sure, some of the information might be false. But the difference between Wikipedia, compared to traditional encyclopedia's, is that we are forced to do our own research. You'd be a fool to take Wikipedia's articles as fact. But you are also a fool to take Brittannica's as fact as well. Read. Think. Research more. Wikipedia encourages you to look further. Elias Bizannes 02 Dec 2004

Arab-Israeli conflict

"U.S. President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair reiterate calls for a two-state solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict."

"Two-state solution" redirects to "two state solution." This should be fixed. Mkilly 19:55, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Typo

Authorizing, in the Nixon calendar item. Baylink 01:21, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

On American topics, American English should be used (see the guidelines on US vs. UK English). If you still want to edit, go ahead --Eddi 20:30, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sorry: I wasn't clear. It was mispelt even for American english. And it appeared to be locked, or I *would* have fixed it myself. Baylink 21:18, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I should be sorry for not checking history. Stupid me. :) --Eddi 21:25, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ex-Britannica Editor Reviews Wikipedia

http://slashdot.org/articles/04/11/16/1319242.shtml?tid=95&tid=1 (somebody go fix Alexander Hamilton ;o) it was of course fixed before I even got there. dab 14:32, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Felix the cat Main page

Remove this scandalous image from the article felix the cat !!!!!!--ThomasK 16:39, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)==Felix the cat Main page ==

Remove this scandalous image from the article felix the cat !!!!!!--ThomasK 16:39, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Urgh, I was about to report that too. Who did that? --Frankie Roberto 16:42, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I tried to change the main page to point to Martika for a temporarily less offensive link but it didnt work. Pacian 16:43, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It does seem to have worked now... --Frankie Roberto 16:45, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Can we get rid of the pornographic picture on the main page please? Perhaps the main page could be made uneditable, infact I thought it was already. I am viewing this in a university and could easily get into trouble for looking at porn. I also suggest that the community portal page be looked at. Kevo00 16:49, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I believe the main page is uneditable, but someone changed the picture in the article itself, so even if the main page cannot be editted, the articles within still can. It appears fixed now. Indigo 16:55, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It does not appear fixed to me. --68.57.8.167 18:26, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It is not fixed. ---NamfFohyr; 16 Nov, 2004; 18:55 UTC
I edited the template to contain no image, as a last-ditch effort. Better to risk no-cartoon than the current, offensive image! ---rmbh; 16 Nov, 2004; 20:32 (UTC)
Not only didn't my changes stick, I got blamed for vandalising the page! rmbh 23:28, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
  • Please see "Image vandalism and protection" below


Hello everybody!!!This WIKIPEDIA is a very good innovation, it's a figata!!!Compliments to all who write something in this...cronological speculation(what for cronological speculation?...we don't know!) Bye bye by Vero&Fede Italy...Write soon!!! ^___^

Wikipedia.info redirection?

After reading the earlier discussion about the domain wikipedia.info, I visited the domain in question, and got a "wiki does not exist" message. When I go to wikipedia.com, I'm "redirected" to wikipedia.org. Why not with wikipedia.info? -- Adolph Wales 18:03, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

wcco radio

Image vandalism and protection

Perhaps we ought to protect any images used on the main page for the duration of that use? That way first-time visitors won't be surprised with goatse images (or worse). —No-One Jones (m) 19:47, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • What 'e said. The vandals learn fast, I'm afraid; designing the WP to be user friendly makes it easy to master in a short period of time, which means that vandals don't have to work very hard to learn how to screw with us. Maybe (but only maybe) we should go back to having templates on the Main Page be admin-only; I'm not sure it was the image itself that was vandalized, although those are equally vulnerable. -Litefantastic 20:27, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Well, for obvious reasons the images are way more vulnerable because of the way they are implemented in MediaWiki. An admin only front page is the weak answer, I think textwise we're dealing with vandalism very quickly, and thanks to the large amount of editors working on it we have a very dynamic front page which is good, keeps things interesting, people putting goatse images on main should get a perm ban. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 20:44, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Because the amount of vandalism of the featured article write up has increased dramatically recently, I am strongly leaning towards protecting them from now on. →Raul654 21:00, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

So you all know the discussion of this particular vandal is at Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/November 16, 2004. -- user:zanimum

I had to turn off the 'In the News' template. I don't think that'll stop the vandalism, but it might get across the point that we're having problems to the people who can protect the pages. -Litefantastic 22:07, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Felix the Cat incident - The Ban

Originally started on Silsor's talk page, by Zanimum

I've extended the ban on 192.197.71.189 to indefinite, because a goatse.cx on the main page is beyond unacceptable. -- user:zanimum

It would probably be better if you shortened that IP block to something more in terms of weeks, since we have no way of knowing how many people use it to access Wikipedia or when it will change hands. Blocking anonymous vandals for a length of time is more useful as a temporary deterrent. silsor 18:49, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)
We should try to track the anon's ISP and contact them, they might be able to track who was using the IP at the time, a willing ISP would be able to take action, especially if it's from a school or university. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 21:39, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

WHOIS turns up the following:

[Removed] (see below)

I would suspect the government of Canada looks down on their networks being used to post disgusting pornography on public websites. —No-One Jones (m) 21:44, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Can someone confirm what happened, I think this image was overwritten with the Goatse image: Image:Felix 1936.jpg, but it doesn't show any vandalism in the history, especially not at the time the complaints started raining in. Anyone know for sure what happened? If we're contacting the ISP we need to have an exact time to report, and we need to contact them ASAP. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 07:45, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

Based on the upload log:
  • 18:22, 16 Nov 2004 Palnatoke uploaded "Felix.jpg" (Reverted to earlier revision)
  • 18:20, 16 Nov 2004 Silsor uploaded "Felix.jpg" (Reverted to earlier revision)
  • 18:15, 16 Nov 2004 192.197.71.189 uploaded "Felix.jpg"
  • 17:35, 16 Nov 2004 ALoan uploaded "Felix_1936.jpg" (Reverted to earlier revision)
  • 17:35, 16 Nov 2004 ALoan uploaded "Felix_1936.jpg" (Reverted to earlier revision)
  • 17:15, 16 Nov 2004 Dugnorth uploaded "Felix.jpg" (Felix the Cat)
  • 17:02, 16 Nov 2004 Evil saltine uploaded "Felix_1936.jpg" (Reverted to earlier revision)
  • 17:02, 16 Nov 2004 Evil saltine uploaded "Felix_1936.jpg" (Reverted to earlier revision)
  • 16:46, 16 Nov 2004 Orpheus Machina uploaded "Felix_1936.jpg" (Reverted to earlier revision)
  • 16:38, 16 Nov 2004 Aquatopia uploaded "Felix_1936.jpg" (Reverted to earlier revision)
  • 16:31, 16 Nov 2004 192.197.71.189 uploaded "Felix_1936.jpg"

→Raul654 07:51, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

I have sent an extensive abuse report to the Internet support department of the ISP managing the anon's address. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 08:24, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

Hopefully this particular user will be terminated, or at least warned, by the Canadian government agency s/he is with. In any case, there's no need for indefinite protection. Pakaran (ark a pan) 12:14, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The general contact address for [removed]. Any volunteers to contact? Actually, all employees of this and many other departments are listed online. One of the subcategories of [removed] likely names the culprit, whomever they are. -- user:zanimum

Folks - the IP was faked. This has been confirmed by the devs. Anyone who has written needs to consider writing again quick. And perhaps we need to think about only making such complaints through some sort of official channel -- sannse (talk) 21:41, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The IP concerned was faked. Anyone who contacted the registrant for the IP address 192.197.71.189 should withdraw their incorrect report. The IP actually responsible for uploading the image was 158.64.72.230 . That IP created an account called "192.197.71.189" to do the uploading. The IP and image links are as follows:

158.64.72.230 ( [2] not a known proxy)(whois): 83.99.48.97 ([3] not a known proxy) (whois

... work in progress... food has interrupted my research but this may be IPs who I've previously blocked for creating 40+ vandalism accounts. Jamesday 21:54, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Dante Alighieri made me aware of the fact that the 192 anon has been framed, it is worrysome that it is so easy to emulate an anonymous user by using an IP as account name. Why not filter these out at account creation? I have immediately written a new mail to the internet support department explaining the situation. The reason I took action in the first place is because the vandalism already seemed to be disappearing in the Featured article of the day archive. Sending complaints for vandalism through a central organisation or person is a good idea, but that means there should be a policy and a way to actually build these complaints. As it is, WP:VIP is not suitable. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 21:56, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

Has someone brought this bug to a developer's attention? This seems to need fixing ASAP. -- The Anome 10:43, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)
That bug was fixed two years ago already, but was recently reintroduced - and fixed again now according to Brion Vibber on the Village Pump. Strange that some vandals find the security holes so fast. andy 13:04, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

158.64.72.230: hal.lgl.lu — http://lgl.lu/ "Lycée de Garçons de Luxembourg". what an asshole (so to speak:) dab 11:07, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

why do we have the policy of not making public the IPs of edits by logged in users, btw? dab 12:50, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

RIPE gives this abuse contact for this network (158.64.0.0/16): 

descr:        Reseau Teleinformatique de l'Education Nationale
descr:        Educational and research network for Luxembourg
person:       Theo Duhautpas
address:      Fondation RESTENA
address:      6, rue Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi
address:      L-1359 Luxembourg
phone:        +352 42 44 09
fax-no:       +352 42 24 73
e-mail:       theo.duhautpas <at> restena.lu

-- Karada 12:52, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

well, that's the national educational network operator. they will not be able to do much about a kid posting goatse from his school's library. If we address the school directly, they may be able to identify the offender, or if not, at least be motivated to threaten sanctions for computer abuse. dab 13:20, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Protect main page?

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Protection policy#Protection of templates and images used on the Main Page

Anti-French Violence

I think linking the phrase "Anti-French Violence" in a lead sentence about the conflict in the Ivory coast to an article title "Anti-French Sentiment"

in the US is POV and silly.

Any help out here?

Wikipedia seems to be very interesting! I'm on a research for a suitable writing script for my language. I want ot combine chinese and japanese scripts with a tutorial in english. At this stage I have no clue whether Wikipedia will help me in my project!

Any help out here?

deebee


you can ask your question at the Wikipedia:Reference desk. Also, it might help if you told us, which is your language -- are we talking about a fictional language? Also, feel free to actually read the articles, Chinese script, Japanese_language#Writing_system. dab 14:14, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Request To Sysops

  • Dear Sysops, can we put up a new section in the Wikipedia In Other Languages of a new section which says Wikipedias with 100,000 articles or more? Thanks, User:Chan Han Xiang

4E5

We just hit the 400,000-articles barrier, people! dab 15:57, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Iraq flag contains propaganda!

better remove this immediately!

  • I'll elabourate on that. The image "Newiraqflag.gif" appears to be a gif animation. After a few seconds of displaying Iraq's flag, the message "Governer Adolph Bush did it only for the oil!" appears. (Also, the source of the image is not specified.)

File:Newiraqflag.gif

Falsifian 21:37, 2004 Nov 20 (UTC)

Again, this is why we need to protect images that go on the main page! —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 22:33, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)

  • It appears that this image was never modified, so protection wouldn't have done anything. The original version had the message. Maybe the solution is just to be very wary of gifs. (Are there any other common image formats that support animation?) --Falsifian 23:06, 2004 Nov 20 (UTC)
    • I have removed the message from the image and replaced it. Tom- 01:06, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • it may be propaganda, but it sure is easier on the eyes than goatse (sorry:) dab 12:45, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Let's avoid animation! =b And no, there are not. -Fennec (はさばくのきつね) 06:15, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • My guess is that the image was modified. Until recently there was a security hole that allowed for images to be replaced without any record. It is believed to be fixed. -- Cyrius|✎ 14:44, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Quake "Did you know"

Minor quibble, but in this line:

...that development on Star Wars Quake lasted for six years, and is probably the most famous Quake mod to never be completed?

"Star Wars Quake" and "Quake" should both be italicized. I know that Wikipedia:Tutorial (Formatting) only specifies books and movie names, but lately most Wiki pages italicize game names as well for largely the same reasons (the whole "longer work" deal and all). --Shadow Hog 16:36, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Fixed. Fredrik | talk 16:43, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. --Shadow Hog 18:10, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hiding Header

When I put the cursor over the "log in" area at the top right of the screen, it jumps under the logo on the top left. This makes it so you can't reach it in Wiktionary. This happens whether or not you are logged in. I have not checked the other Wikiplaces. Please fix this, someone.

Typo on main page.

Typo: "the Indus Civilization cvered ..." should be "covered".

Sorry about the blanking. I thought I was just editing a new comment. :(

I don't think that that was you. -- ABCD | Talk 02:02, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Featured article copyvio?

See Talk:Indus Valley Civilization; do we have a copyvio on our featured article? I'm unfamiliar with the history of this article and would rather have someone who's worked on the article take a look at it. —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 20:54, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)

this is appalling . the article was featured at a completely different stage, back in March. [4] It was nominated in January. See Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Featured_log/October_2003_to_April_2004#Indus_Valley_Civilization. There was no discussion at all. Nobody commented, and it was simply considered FA'd. Maybe our FA standards have changed? Maybe we need a FA patrol looking for deterioration of FAs? The person picking the FA of the day should at least do some checking of this kind. In any case, an article that has reached FA standard doesn't necessarily remain on FA standard on WP, this much is obvious. WP is doomed to "eternal vigilance". dab 22:08, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It wasn't featured in March. Wikipedia:Today's featured article/March 2004 -- user:zanimum
well, the Template:Featured was added in March. So maybe it wasn't really featured at all, ever. dab 11:07, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Isn't there a page for requesting to unfeature articles? Andre (talk) 22:38, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates to remove their status as featured article. As far as taking down a featured article of the day, it's my call, really, but that's extremely rare and has only happened twice (one time unnecessarily, IMHO). →Raul654 23:51, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

Charlie Dog Page removed

Sorry, there were false claims against the Chuck Jones cartoon dog character.

user 6:15 P.M.

Fixed. It was a blanking. In the future, you can check the history of the page, click on the previous edit to see what was there before, press edit, and then press save :). Or you can just ask somebody else to take care of it. Thanks for the alert. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee|✍]] 23:20, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I tried to fix the page as fast, but Jeff Schiller came in, has changed the pages about the dog away from the older version, I got blamed of ruining the article.

Check the history on this (both the Charlie Dog page, the Talk:Charlie Dog page). You (or someone within your IP range) is continually vandalizing this page as well as my own statements on the Talk page. You have also started vandalizing the Bugs Bunny page. Regards, Jeff schiller 00:01, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)

Many people don't know who the two characters are, but sadly, their old 40's and 50's cartoons are now gone, disappeared from cable television, also people these days don't know anything about classical music.

Wow! Vandalism!

Someone should probably remove it. Comrade Tassadar 06:29, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

how? I thought only the admins could edit the front page. --Jazz Remington 06:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Whoa, it appeared one did quite quickly. Ignore this, then. Comrade Tassadar 06:32, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC) Have I become schizophrenic? I just saw it again for a few seconds. Comrade Tassadar 06:33, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Someone also should change the page back to the older version of November 22nd, and protect this page. Despite, I am a classical music fan, but other people claim the dog did appear in the 1970s cartoons with popular music in background, but Jeff Schiller argued he was not, before that, he said he was not involved with the Great-Dane. Well, I give up.

What are you talking about? I fail to see how your comments related to Charlie Dog are relevant to this discussion about vandalism of the Main_Page. With regards to our debate about Charlie Dog, if you can please provide some proof of the 1970s cartoon you are talking about it would be appreciated, but please confine the discussion to the Talk:Charlie Dog page. Regards, Jeff schiller 00:06, 2004 Nov 24 (UTC)

Wikifilm

There's a project called Wikifilm, that I'm proposing. -- user:zanimum

Main Page - remake in CSS

I've re-done the Main Page using CSS instead of tables as much as I can (just one table with two cells remains). Please help test it in any browser you have, it should be almost identical to the current Main Page. Please list any problems on the test page's talk page. Thanks, Tom- 22:15, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • Bravo! BLANKFAZE | (что??) 22:26, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • It works fine on my current machine, but remember there's enough browsers out there that are gonna have trouble with this. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 16:13, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)
  • This is now live. Tom- 21:29, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Awesome. Screw browsers that have problems with it. CSS has been a W3C recommendation for HOW LONG now? BLANKFAZE | (что??) 21:39, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • I haven't actually found a browser which has a problem with it yet. And this version works better than the previous tables version on Netscape 4 - the old version used to crash it! Tom- 21:52, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hmm. I hope that comment was at least a little bit ironic; some people really don't like being told to "upgrade or else", you know... In fact, somebody on the Help desk the other day was complaining that "Wikipedia crashes Netscape" - they haven't responded to my request for clarification yet, but they seemed to be implying it was just this one page that was triggering the problem; so I wondered if it was the relatively complex CSS that was causing this, but haven't got round to testing it. Do the dates check out with your recoding, or was it still mainly tables at the time that comment was left? - IMSoP 21:56, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
OK, you're officially absolved of blame for this; I've just tested, and it's a whole lot weirder than one version working and another not... - IMSoP 22:34, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Meh. Now I'm just confused! First I thought your changes might actually be breaking the browser; then they seemed to be irrelevant, and I was getting weird differences between .../wiki/Main_Page (crashed) and .../w/wiki.phtml?title=Main_Page (didn't); now I can't get it to crash at all! I can only think that the weirdness was just a caching issue (this testing was all done after you'd made the change, but not long after). So, um, thanks; and sorry. Um... - IMSoP 22:44, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The non-CSS version (with lots of tables) was crashing NS4. The new almost-only-CSS version doesn't crash NS4. You were probably seeing the old version due to caching. Tom- 23:03, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Discovery of Tasmania?

It says today that "1642 - Abel Tasman discovered Tasmania." I would like to disagree. From a NPOV, it would seem like Abel Tasman was the first European (or white person, or whomever) to voyage to Tasmania, as there were an estimated 5000 indigenous peoples living there at the time of his voyage. I would strongly recommend this be changed, I feel it's not NPOV and that it makes Wikipedia seem European-centric, which it should not be. User:Machinebuster

perhap[s change it to "1642 - Abel Tasman was the first European voyager to map Tasmania." Or some such similar. The same should also be said of any explorer opening up regions which are already inhabited. --BrianWalker 07:18, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wikimedia for the Nobel Peace Prize

Suggested in Wikipedia:Wikimedia for Nobel Peace Prize --Mac 17:52, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Christmas, Wikipedia Main Page and Wikimedia Commons

WikiSanta by Solitude

I suggest upload images and MIDI files to Wikimedia Commons and use them in the Wikipedia Main Page during Christmas. To midi would be added a link to heard it in Commons.

Are you suggesting midis that automatically play when people visit. Cute, but we're an encyclopedia. -- user:zanimum
Midis are not automatically played by Wikimedia. So, don't worry about it. It's optional. You have to click in the link to heard the music.And like optional, I want Christmas midis, that we can optain from the public domain, usign GNU LilyPond and the musical score to obtain the file using LilyPond from http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ --Mac 05:21, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, like a cute Wikisanta to replace the top left logo, I for one would like to start out the inevitable contest with this attempt ;) -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 09:32, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)
PS. No MIDI, *yugh*!

I like this santa logo, I can include from now in my personal page.
for santa's sake, no MIDI, please! (the logo is nice, though) dab 09:57, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There's two tops to the hat, hanging down? (There seems to be a pom-pom on either side of the Wikipedia globe. I have nothing against this sort of thing, and frankly was going to suggest we consider doing as Google. Max of one like logo every month, and presumably only the English Wikipedia would do it, for the sake of simplicity. But we could have all kinds of things for different holidays and anniversaries. Nothing morbid though, and no cartoons, despite the fact I love cartoons. Just classy things like this. -- user:zanimum
Yes, please. I like this different holidays idea. I though about it initially and begin with Christmas. This is going to increase my culture . Thanks. --Mac 05:21, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why not Chanukah or Kwanzaa? Should we adapt the logo for Thanksgiving or May Day, notable holidays in English-speaking countries? How about not doing any of that at all and keeping it neutral? We ain't Google. The English Wikipedia is in English, not about Western culture. We all know the bias is there, but that doesn't mean we have to advertise it in logos, no matter how much we like Christmas ("Christmas is a time when people of all religions come together to worship Jesus Christ." —Bart Simpson in The Simpsons).
Also, using auto-playing MIDIs qualify people of all religions for spending their afterlife in hell, but that's just my opinion. :-) JRM 11:37, 2004 Nov 26 (UTC)
but then only an American would have such qualms about political correctness, so not placing santa's hat will express regional bias ;o) come on, what is the connection between a whacky red hat and "worship of Jesus Christ"? Not that I am very much into the idea, but it is harmless. dab 18:19, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The red hat implies an endorsement of the Christian holiday. -- Emsworth 20:42, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
it implies endorsement of the notability of a bearded elf flying around in a sleigh. dab 09:24, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I like the idea of changing the logo - and why not do it for some other events as well... --Frankie Roberto 23:44, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Changing the logo is looking for trouble. It brings us into POV territory. If we allow this then why not a menora or the black stone of mecca or ayer's rock (or whatever people call it now). You can't be POV if you don't say anything.[[User:BrokenSegue|BrokenSegue]] 14:44, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"You can't be POV if you don't say anything" — great! How about a new logo featuring this as WP's motto? dab 15:30, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Midi files are not currently possible anyways, see: Wikipedia talk:Sound. Hyacinth

Midi files are possible. I suggest create a repository that can be used by some wikipedians that want to use it. And it's the initial step to make more similar events for different hollidays. So, it would be optional, who want it, can use it. Who no, can not. --Mac 05:21, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree that we should make an effort to decorate the Main Page for christmas. Before the usual hacks start up with the "but we're a multicultural ... blah blah ... favouring one over another ... blah blah..." (I've heard it before, numerous times), may I point out a few things:

  • The French Wikipedia decorates at Christmas
  • Major sites like Google and Yahoo! decorate
  • This is the English language Wikipedia, and while I accept not all native English speakers are Christian, a significant proportion are
  • The festive celebrations of the season are celebrated by people of diverse beliefs

As a result, I do not see the problem with having some generic form of decoration on the Main Page, so long as it's not a nativity scene or anything like that. How about tangled lights? - Mark 09:31, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And to add to the above statement, may I point out that for a large number of people celebrating Christmas has nothing to do with religion. It is merely a holiday to celebrate the cold and short days in comfort with friends and family. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 10:03, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)
It's a shame then that it seems to always be held in mid-summer where I live.-gadfium 21:09, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Oeff, shame on me and my northern hemisphere POV! -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 21:42, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)
Alright, as one of those hacks, I accept that the majority argument holds some sway. But I'm even more strongly convinced that we shouldn't do it because everyone else does. Google and Yahoo decorate. Great for them. The French Wikipedia does. Great for them, and let's start a MetaWiki initiative to spread Christmas decoration to all relevant countries! I'm not about to blow the cultural bias argument out of proportion, so I'll just leave it my personal opinion that Wikipedia shouldn't bother with this sort of cuteness. Then again, if people just can't live without it, I'll politely ignore it. JRM 09:22, 2004 Nov 29 (UTC)
Re-reading the above, I'd like to add "bah humbug". :-) JRM 09:22, 2004 Nov 29 (UTC)
I have some understanding for the 'no excessive cuteness' argument. with all the icons (in stub templates etc) WP is starting to look like a KDE desktop :-\ In any case, I prefer not to have a santa icon for 'reduce cuteness' than for 'no cultural bias' reasons :o) — I agree with the overall "bah humbug" verdict, though. dab 12:54, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It would be harmless, but it would annoy me. I'm a Jewish atheist and I rather resent the Christmas references that come out every year around this time in supposedly neutral places, like government buildings and public school. Don't make Wikipedia like them, I beg you! Andre (talk) 22:58, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and as for Google, they decorate for lots of other things, like Thanksgiving, Independence Day (U.S.), Canada Day, the Chinese New Year, etc. Andre (talk) 23:00, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

Svyatoy kolodets

Why on earth would Svyatoy kolodets ("the holy fountain") redirect to this page :O ? dab 10:49, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm (cur) (last) 12:11, Nov 25, 2004 Blankfaze (Svyatoy kolodets moved to Talk:Main Page), maybe Blankfaze can elaborate? -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 11:09, Nov 25, 2004 (UTC)
Heh, nope, I don't know what it's about. Someone page-move-vandalised this page by moving it to Svyatoy kolodets. I simply moved it back (leaving of course a redirect which I then forgot to delete). BLANKFAZE | (что??) 11:31, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
See this evidence. Ancheta Wis 14:21, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC).

In the top-right of the main page, there is a link named "Text only" which opens a table-free version of the page. The problem is, the table-free versio is NOT text-only -- it still includes images, for instance. The link should be renamed to "Table-free version" or something similar. MCBastos 18:33, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

'Done. →Raul654 10:48, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)

Christmas 2004

I suggest help with the Christmas 2004 special and include special material in Wikipedia Mainpages. See Wikipedia:Christmas 2004.

Code Typo

On the ninth line ("other languages"), </i> should be </li>. Kdau 00:11, 2004 Nov 28 (UTC)


January 2001

Shouldn't 2001 be 2001? --Elijah 06:27, 2004 Nov 28 (UTC)

From time to time, someone removes many of the not very necessary links in the intro text; later, they creep back in in a form of link bloat. Trying to say as much as possible in a few sentences makes linking to everything tempting, but we should think about that some of the links are really important, like the links telling people about us and our history, about our specialities (editing and licensing) etc. We shouldn't have too much of other links, like 2001 which doesn't provide anything remotely interesting in comparison, to obscure the important ones. ✏ Sverdrup 16:20, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wickipedia/Software catalogue?

The current main page feature article (Mozilla Firefox) is POV. And tacky, Even though I like open source software, something dissing IE shouldn't be the feature article. We have more 'encyclopedic' material. rmbh 09:20, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)

You can address your concerns on the talk page of the article in question, at any time can an article be marked as POV by adding the {{POV}} to the article, but be sure to point out your criticism in detail on the talk page when you do. Also note that articles are not featured arbitrarily, they undergo due process at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates, so it is a good idea to monitor that page if you want to help keeping Featured articles NPOV. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 10:07, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)

Tehran mispelled as Teheran

I've never seen Tehran spelled any other way, so please excuse my ignorance if it is spelled correctly. Tim 20:53, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

IMPORTANT: inaccuracy/POV on main page

The few words of the featured article section on the main page states: "Mozilla Firefox is a free web browser". Although I am a long-term fan of Firefox (from before Phoenix 0.1), I think this should be changed to reflect that most people believe that Firefox (at least in the form available at [5]) is non-free, and it should be noted that the Mozilla Foundation refuse to state, as Wikipedia has, that it is free.

You should at concede that this statement is very POV & should at least be changed to state that its freedom (or lack thereof) is in dispute. (In fact I'm just replying to an email from RMS on Firefox's lack of freedom.) I meant to comment on this in talk: Mozilla Firefox a couple of weeks ago. I will do so now.

Table-Free Not For Me or Anybody...

Really, I think this is just extra clutter and worst of all, it's in the most noticeble part of Wikipedia. How many people will seriously have such a subpar browser (like Links)? 1%? What's that. No? 0.5%? What, even lower? 0.2% of viewers? Not even that,!!?? Hmmm... Maybe we are alienating most people while trying to please everybody. Sure you do not have to use it, but the more things you see that you do not use, (or have to use) the more intimidating, and unusable the site will become/ Exigentsky

I'm one who has a sub-par browser - Internet Explorer on an iPaq, most recent version as far as I know, although it doesn't seem to have a version number, built in to Rom with Windows Mobile 2003 SE. This is not the same as IE 6 on a Windows desktop system. I use Wikipedia through the wireless connection built into the iPaq, and the main page was *very* slow to load, so I switched to the table-free version. In the last few days, the normal main page loads quite acceptably for me, presumably due to the changes away from tables within it. (I'm not using the iPaq to post this now. I usually only browse with it, not edit).
I could download a better browser, but there are no decent free browsers (as far as I know) for iPaq/Pocket PC. I am looking forward to a Pocket PC version of Firefox.-gadfium 01:36, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If there is a table-free version, it should not be so prominent.
It's very useful to have a low-bandwith/table free version for people accessing Wikipedia from a wireless/cell phone or WAP phone. It should be quite prominent so that first-time users locate it quickly without giving up in frustration trying to find the link. Also in general a text browser friendly option should be provided for general web accessibilty. Just because you don't know many people who don't use IE or Firefox/Mozilla, doesn't mean they don't exist. --Lexor|Talk 04:27, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
I know many people using Opera, Mozilla, Firefox, Konqueror and derivatives, not one of them uses table-free. I understand it's useful for some, but I think it should be in the preferences, not the front page. Exigentsky 07:46, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
lynx, w3m, Blazer (for Treo 600 and PalmOne phones) all benefit and/or require the table free version. --Lexor|Talk 10:50, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
Even the 'tabled' version looks nice in lynx; that's not the problem. it's more for mobile gadgets: imho, the table-free version should also be lighter. people accessing it are likely to pay for the byte transferred (gprs), and don't want to download the links to a zillion "WPs in other languages" every time they access the main page. dab 11:52, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Editing the Main Page Unfriendly

Too many sections are not up to date enough, and documentation is lacking.

Even Wikipedia:Editing_the_main_page is outdated and has not been changed to fit the new design. Exigentsky

To state the obvious (someone has to) - we aren't feeling an great pressure to make it easy for people to edit the main page. In fact, when we have done so, it's usually an open invitation for abuse and vandalism. →Raul654 09:10, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
That doesn't mean it should be left like this, and I can't seem to fix it. -Exigentsky 14:26, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

What's with all the clutter? Just when Wikipedia became more usable...

Why does the Navigation box have a link to "Current events', this is easily acessible through the Main page and anyone interested can add this to their bookmarks themselves. This is only extra clutter. Remember the clutter of the old design? I hope it's not heading that way. Exigentsky 04:11, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

Election banner?

There should be an ArbCom election banner either on the main page or on the Community Portal page. --Ce garcon 04:27, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

As has been said repeatedly - the main page is for our readers, not our users. The community portal is more appropriate. →Raul654 04:34, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
Well then there should be one on the Community Portal. As far as I know, right now there isn't one there either. --Ce garcon 04:38, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Print version of the main page

The print version of the main page includes {{newpagelinksmain}}:

The links are expanded to ugly, useless pieces of text on paper. Also, the new CSS version is completely messed up in printing, on both Firefox and Win2000 IE6. JRM 12:17, 2004 Nov 30 (UTC)

Not sure what you are referring to, but I assume with print version you mean the "table free" version? I do not see any lenghty list with categories in that view, do you have screenshots of that issue? The CSS version indeed looks messed up in print preview, I'm not a CSS expert so I don't know how easy that is to fix. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 12:30, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
Sure: go to Image:Main page print preview 2004-11-30.jpg. This applies to both Firefox and IE (though they give slightly different previews, obviously.) I am assuming that this is WYSIWYG, of course, and that it's not a mistake of either browser (I haven't actually printed it, mind you). JRM 12:54, 2004 Nov 30 (UTC)
It also occurs to me that we are probably talking past each other; for the record, I mean the print preview of the vanilla main page as it pops up in your GUI browser), not any alternate versions. (And contrary to what might be expected, this has been known to print rather nicely—for some revisions. :-) JRM 13:04, 2004 Nov 30 (UTC)
I tried putting an "@media:print" styling in the template to hide it, but it didn't seem to work. Maybe we could get a Developer to add a class in the print stylesheet that will hide it... - IMSoP 18:56, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Spoilers on main page?

Template:Spoiler Are spoilers acceptable on the main page? I want to post something about Ken Jennings (on Jeopardy) loosing after 75 episodes, around 8 PM tonight. It would be up after the game, as to not be a spoiler for EST viewers, but this would be a spoiler for the rest of the continent. And, even if it was posted once Hawaii saw it, then it would still be a spoiler for some international countries that don't air the show immediately.

But then, it's not really a spoiler, as anyone who watches Ken and surfs the net or reads a newspaper already knows about his loss. There's 598 newspapers who've printed an article on the topic.

So, what do I do? -- user:zanimum

I presume you mean adding it to the In the news section? One of the guidelines for ITN is that the topic needs to be internationally important or at least interesting. I highly doubt someone doing well on a game show in the USA qualifies, seeing enough people complained when ITN featured Dan Rather's resignation, which I think has more international impact than Jeopardy. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 21:02, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)
Where do you intend inserting such local trivia? It's not suitable for "In the news", and too current and not fitting the purpose (I would think) for "Did you know". zoney ♣ talk 21:12, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
http://demo.wikinews.org
He has broken every worthwhile record in international television game show history, and has tested the limits of "celebrity". -- user:zanimum
Well, my reaction was who? (Ken Jennings) what? (Jeopardy), and I expect the reaction of most other non-Americans would be the same... [[User:MikeX|MikeX (Talk)]] 11:28, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
As was mine. Can't see why this would feature on the main page at all. Filiocht 15:34, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

Battle of the bulge..Jeopardy connection?

Ken Jennings finally lost on Jeopardy, as I understand it one of the Daily doubles he got wrong was "What is Bastogne?". This morning, the Battle of the Bulge is the Featured article?

Coincidence?

According to the page history for the template, I scheduled Battle of the Bulge at 01:35 Est on Nov 30. The news about the Ken Jennings loss did not break until 18:00 that day. So yes, it is a coincidence. →Raul654 16:02, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)
Technically Raul could have been in the Jeopardy audience the day Jennings lost, I believe it was taped somewhere in September, and planned this way ahead! But that's pure speculation, I do not believe Raul is capable of such an evil scheme ;) -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\talk]] 16:13, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

The Plague: Need help!

I'm interested in finding references to why the Plague (Bubonic) does not seem to have made it to the Americas in the second half of the seventeenth-century. Does anyone in cyber-land have knowledge of this topic and, perhaps, a few good references to share?

I recently returned from Amsterdam where I searched the archives for leads on the Monte Cristi "Pipe Wreck," a submerged archaeological site on which I've been working for close to two decades and which is located on the north coast of Hispaniola.

It seems that my main clay tobacco pipe maker, Mr. Edward Bird, died in 1665 and was buried in the yard of the Westerkerk (for those of you who have traveled to Amsterdam, its the church right next to Anne Frank's house). This is puzzling because he died a very wealthy man, and most folks that had amassed his degree of wealth were accorded church burials (inside the church). It appears (no concrete evidence) that he may have succumbed to the Plague, which devastated Amsterdam in 1664. As most of you know, it hit England in 1665. If he, indeed, died of the Plague, they would have buried him outside of the church, rather than in it, regardless of the size of his bank account.

And, because we excavated three rat femurs -- as I recall they were about 4 mm. in length -- from between the bottom planking of the Monte Cristi "Pipe Wreck," I've been curious about why there wasn't transmission of the Plague from the Old World to the New, since the primary vectors were the fleas on rats. They supposedly carried it from the Middle East to Europe, so why not from Europe to the Americas?

Yes, just the wanderings of a tired but curious mind. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, Jerome Lynn Hall

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