Talk:Idolatry

More discussion on this article may be found here: Talk:Idolatry/archive1, Talk:Idolatry/archive2, Talk:Idolatry/archive3, Talk:Idolatry/archive4, Talk:Idolatry/archive5, Talk:Idolatry/archive6

So you can be polytheistic, worship "false" gods, and not be idolatrous? Dietary Fiber

Well, Wikipedia does not take sides on which god or gods are real, if any. Thus, Wikipedia articles can not answer this particular question. But I take it you are asking specifically about the Jewish or Christians view: The classic Jew and Christian view has been that polytheism equals idolatry; thus, in this view one cannot worship polytheistic gods without being an idolator. In this view, polytheism = idolatry. (Maybe some exceptions exist, but I do not know of any. I would be very interested in learning about any such exceptions!) However, as modern-day Jews and Christians have learned more about other cultures, and have been talking more with people of other religions, some have concluded that not all polytheists should be considered idol worshippers. Perhaps, even, none should be. Thus, a worshipper of polytheistic gods would not be not an idolator. Those in liberal Judaism or liberal Christianity would certainly consider such a person incorrect, but being incorrect is not the same thing as being an idolator. If you have a different point of view, that is fine. No one is asking you (or anyone else) to agree with this point of view. We are just reporting that this POV exists. RK

So what constitutes idolatry according to the liberal scholary view? Dietary Fiber

You really need to re-read our articles more carefully. There is no one agreed-upon scholarly view that all scholars of religion agree upon; there is no one agreed-upon view that all liberal religious Jews or liberal religious Christians agree upon. Even among traditionally religious Christians (and Jews) who denounce what they see as idolatry, there is no one agreed-upon definition of idolatry that everyone agrees on! The problem with your questions is that you keep demanding absolute answers do not exist. RK

I think the biggest problem with this page is its title. The very word idolatry inescapably connotes "the forbidden practice of worshiping idols or false gods". This makes it very hard to make fine distinctions. Making fine distinctions, however, is precisely what an encyclopedia article on a broad religious topic ought to do. Determination of which religious practices or beliefs constitute "idolatry" and who is an "idolator" are just as tough as pinning down just which sexual practices are "immoral". Uncle Ed 16:00 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

That's right. For example, different Christian denominations have very different definitions of what they term idolatry (although all of them have classically agreed that all polytheists are idolators). However, I don't have a problem with the title; it is the most useful title to discuss the subject. We simply need to take care to note the full range of views within the article. RK

Really, it would be safer and easier to write a comprehenzive article on heresy than on "idolatry". At least the term heresy carries the connotation of "forbidden by a particular sect or leader". As in, Joe Blow was declared a heretic in 1342 by Jerry Blah.

This wouldn't be any easier. As above, different Christian denominations have very different definitions of what they term heresy, and Jewish and Muslim views of heresy differ further still. RK

My suggestion for fixing this article, as well as ameliorating the squabbling, would be to divide it into several smaller articles, each with a well-defined and easily-agreed-upon scope. For example, Jewish views on idol worship which presumably would begin with Old Testament prohibitions such as "worship no graven images". A defense of monotheism is related ("have no other gods before Me") but really peripheral to idol worship per se. My 2 cents. --Uncle Ed 15:34 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

Here is a quotation from the KJV:

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them

The text which I have emphasized in bold seems to forbid three related practices:

Don't worship other "gods"
Don't make idols
Don't worship idols

Traditionally, I think, these are considered the #1 and #2 of the Ten Commandments. Whatever you call the 2 or 3 practices described in chapter 20, verses 3 to 5 -- it seems that some religious authorities have interpreted the verses as forbidding polytheism and idol worship. I bet some religious authorites have even branded these practices as "idolatry". But it seems to me that they are stretching the term idolatry as a blankey to cover polytheism and idol making and idol worship. Uncle Ed 16:00 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

This is a valid point of view, and one that is noted in the article (e.g. liberal religious Chrisitians and Jews who no longer see a reason to call polytheists idolators.) However, those who coined the word idolatry, and who have used this word for the past 1000 or 2000 years, disagree. This article is about what the word idolatry refers to in practice, and not what this word in theory could have refered to. It could have refered solely to people who literally worship stone idols. But it doesn't; according to people who use this word, it refers to much more. RK

Exactly what people believed when they genuflected in front of "idols" may also be of interest. Do they think the god is *in* the stone doll? Or what?

But I think we have to separate the Points Of View of the various condemning authorities from the Points Of View of the various advocating authorities, historians, anthropologists, etc.

So one outline for an article would be to list the various Jewish prohibitions stemming from 20:3-5 (the, um, first two Commandments). If someone has labelled one or more of these practices as "idolatry", we should say who that was.

That same article -- or possibly another, such as polytheism, might be the appropriate place to discuss issues such as to what extent people who use pictures or statues in their religious practice consider themselves to be practing "idolatry" or not. You see, we cannot come up with a one-size-fits-all definition or explanation of "idolatry". There are many views, expressed by many advocates. Let us simply describe and report on all those views.

I think RK, slr, Wesley and possibly Dietary Fiber are better qualified to write this than I am. So please try to get along together. --Uncle Ed 16:00 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

i added this article to Wikipedia:Brilliant prose Kingturtle 17:36 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)

Why? It's hardly excellent prose. It's very choppy and lacks introductory sentences in many places. Not brilliant at all, although it does appear to be prose. Graft

Okay, by now I'm getting used to this on Wikipedia, but I'll at least register my complaint that Judaism, Christianity and Islam get primary treatment while Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, and so on get lumped together into "Asian beliefs" and tucked in as an afterthought. I mean, hell, there are only 3 billion of us, right? Graft

But idolatry is a Jewish and a Christian belief, not a Hindu, Buddhist or Taoist belief. Similarly, the Ten Commandments are also Jewish and Christian elements of their belief systems. Why should other religions get a lot of space on things that have little to do with their religion? The only way that they ever enter into this article is the question of whether or not modern day Jews and Christians should think of these faiths as idolatry or not. The Bible certainly doesn't deal with any of these religions. RK

I am moving text around; we should not put everything related to the Hebrew Bible into the section on Jewish views. That introduces a historical anachronism. Rabbinic Judaism developed directly from the Israelite religion of the Hebrew Bible, but it is not identical to it. Further, both Christianity and Judaism draw from the Hebrew Bible. Also, we need to note that there are many passages in the Hebrew Bible which condemn all forms of idol worship and veneration; the prohibition is not only found in the Ten Commandments. Finally, the article should note that the Hebrew Bible explicitly condemns the use of all forms of images in the worship of God, YHVH. We should add a few more commandments on this topic so that people can understand this subject in a fuller context. RK

Thank you for making clear that Christianity draws from the Hebrew Bible, as well as Judaism. A couple questions: Were the carved images of cherubim on top of the Ark of the Covenant, there as part of God's instructions to Moses regarding how the Ark should be built, not somehow used in the worship of God? From the time of Moses forward, didn't various people offer sacrifices to God in various places, beginning with the Tabernacle as they traveled to Canaan, down to Samuel who offered sacrifices in several locations, and probably others as well? I would imagine this probably ended with the construction of Solomon's Temple, but I'm not sure... Wesley

According to Judaism (and I think, a literal reading of the Biblical prohibitions) there is no problem with art used in a Temple or sanctuary. Even carved images of the Cherubim are Ok, because they were not prayed to or venerated. Some denominations of Christianity, as I understand it, says that icons and statues of Jesus and the Saints are Ok to venerate because Jews venerated images of the Cherubim, but this is a misconception. These were works of art, and were not ever objects of veneration. Jewish law considers it a sin to venerate, or pray to, angels or images of angels. One of the commandments in the Hebrew Bible is that it is prohibited to pray to God himself by the use of an image or icon. RK

I agree that the Hebrew people did not pray to the images of the Cherubim, or to the Ark itself. But surely we can agree that they offered prayers to God while in the presence of the Ark (or at least the High Priest did on behalf of all), and that at least the Ark itself was treated with great reverence and respect, partly in obedience to God's commands concerning it and partly because it represented the presence of God with or among the Hebrew people? To an outsider, might it not look as though they were praying to the Ark? Why else did the Philistines steal the Ark, if not in a mistaken attempt to steal the Hebrews' god? Wesley

That is probably right. But the Philistines could have never succeeded in stealing God by taking the ark of the covenant. We actually kept God hidden in the vase behind the door. :) RK

I removed this passage:

Over the next few centuries, as Christianity developed as a new religion, it became standard for Christians to create idols and images of Jesus to worship. Christians hold that it is lawful to worship idols of God, because these idols only represent God, and are not literally the Christian God. The worship of the physical presence of a god is called "worship" or "prayer", while the worship of an idol that represents a god is called "veneration". Christianity teaches that according to the New Testament, idol veneration is permitted.

This seems to be confused on many different levels. First, "Christians" do not hold that it is lawful to worship "idols of God." Only some Christians venerate any images.

Not all Christian images of Jesus are made the objects of worship or veneration; the vast majority of them are for the purpose of instruction. Jesus the Son is the only person of the Trinity that Christians make "idols" of; no one venerates an image of the Father or the Holy Ghost. Moreover, those Christians who venerate images usually also venerate images of people who were not God.

I see no contradiction between the removed text and what you state. RK

As a whole, the article is really improving, but here I would agree with IHCOYC. The key is the term idol and worship. Whatever Christians have venerated images over the centuries, they would rigorously deny that the images are idols and the veneration is worship. For this reason, I can't think of a single Christian ever writing that is "it is lawful to worship idols of God". Also, I can't think of a single passage in the NT where "idol veneration is permitted." The term idol is almost inherently POV, and Protestants dislike the veneration of saints and icons precisely because it is not in the New Testament. SCCarlson 03:52 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

Finally, some of these Christians also believe that God is physically present in some of their idols, such as when a consecrated Host undergoes transubstantiation and is then made an object of worship.

That is a different subject. If you want to add this, fine. RK

If we're talking about the way the worship of images worked its way into Christianity and became the cause for sectarian disagreements, perhaps some note should be taken of the Great Apostasy, where the issues raised here are discussed at some greater length. -- IHCOYC 00:50 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

Christianity was a new religion, and it doesn't follow the rules of the Jews. It often allows its followers to do the opposite of certain rules. In regards to idolatry, this embarasses some Chrisitians, but why? After all, Christians do not follow the laws of keeping kosher or Jewish holidays, which is also a huge change from the laws of the Hebrew Bible. RK

Christianity follows some of rules in the Old Testament and not others. Technically, the rule against idolatry is one of those Christianity has always claimed to follow, hence the need for extremely fine distinctions between idol and icon, and between worship and veneration. If Christians thought it OK to worship idols, none of this other terminology would be needed. SCCarlson 03:52 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

Generally RK, (as you probably already know), Christians of all kinds make a difference between the moral instructions of law (variously called "the moral law", "general equity of law", "spirit vs. letter", "ethical principles" etc.), and the civil and ceremonial statutes of law. Polytheism, idolatry, dishonor of parents, murder, etc. are understood as immorality. Note that Sabbath-breaking is skipped here, but some would include it - depending upon whether it is understood as a ceremonial or a moral obligation to keep the "Lord's Day" as a Sabbath (only some Protestants do so). The prohibition against idolatry is on all kinds of Christians' "morality" list, and at the same time it is practically forbidden that laws which were given for setting apart the Jewish people (circumcision, the tithes, food and clothing restrictions, Sabbaths and feasts, etc.) would be made obligatory for non-Jewish Christians. Mkmcconn 05:43 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

I don't question the right of Chrisitions to use idols and icons. I just watch with astonishment as they perform verbal gymnastics to deny what they allow. They eat pork; why not just say "We don't follow the rules of kashrut". They worship in front of picutures or statues of Jesus, so why not just say "We don't follow the Biblical laws of idolatry." Instead, the Christian community has written hundreds of pages of text to prove that praying in front these images isn't really praying in front of an idol. From a non-Christian perspective, this is like arguing that comsuming pork is kosher, but eating pork is not. Whatever. RK

Well, the Catholic argument for the use of images in worship always makes me feel a little crazy, too. But, it is what it is: idolatry is sin, veneration of images is a religious duty. 130.94.162.133

Were I writing only for myself, I might be inclined to agree, that any venerated image is in fact an idol. It may in fact fulfil a social role no different from the idols of other faiths. The problem is that "idolatry," in Christianity, remains the name of a sin; even those denominations that practice what I'd call idolatry do so under cover of mental reservations that officially maintain distance between their own practices and what they're willing to call idolatry.

No Christian "hold(s) that it is lawful to worship idols of God." They will claim that their worship is not worship, or that their images are not idols. These differences are expressed in official doctrinal statements, and are real to those who accept them, even though to outsiders they may well seem to be distinctions without a difference. To label their practices as "idolatry" is going to seem deliberately provocative. -- IHCOYC 07:07 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

Should we work some or all of these quotes into the main text? I want to make clear that the Hebrew Bible has many rules against idolatry, not just the one in the Ten Commandments. I also want to discuss Deut. 4:12,15-19, which explicitly allows idolatrous beliefs for gentiles; the Torah is very clear that idolatry is wrong, and that many idolatrous practices are forbidden to both gentiles and Jews. But the Torah itself does seem to allow idolatrous beliefs for non-Israelites. (Later books in the Bible, of course, make clear that idolatry is prohibuted to all people, and that all people should eventually become monotheists. But historians hold that this was a later view.) RK

Exodus 34:13 Beware of making a covenant with the inhabitants of the land which you are advancing, lest they be a snare in your midst. No, you must tear down their altars, smash their pillars and cut down their sacred posts, for you must not worship any other god. (New JPS)

Deuteronomy 4:12, 15-19 The Lord spoke to you outof the fire; you heard the sound of words but perceived no shape - nothign but a voice....For your own sake, therefore, be most careful - since you saw no shape when the Lord your God spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire - not to act wickedly and make for yourselves a sculptured image in any likeness whatever; the form of a man or a woman, the form of any beats on earth, the form of any winged bird that flies in the sky, the form of anything that creeps on the ground, the form of any fish that is in the waters below the earth. And when you look up to the sky and behold the sun and the moon and the stars, the whole heavenly host, you must not be lured into bowing down to them or serving them. These the Lord your God allotted to other peoples everywhere under heaven. (New JPS)

Deuteronomy 12:30, 31:

Exodus 22:19 Whoever sacrifices to the gods other than the LORD alone shall be proscribed. (New JPS)

20:3-5 You shall have no other gods besides Me. You shall not make for yourself a sculpted image, or any likeness of what is in the heavens above, or on the earth below, or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them.

In the JPS Torah Commentary on Exodus Professor Nahum Sarna comments "The theophany was direct, public and communal. All Israel was witness to the phenomenon of God speaking from heaven; that is, His abode is neither on nor of the earth. He is wholly removed from the natural confines of the material world. The noncorporeal nature of God's unmediated self-manifestation was apparent to all....therefore God may never be represented by any shape or form; nor may God be associated with any idol such as other peoples accept idols."

Exodus 20:19,20: You yourselves saw that I spoke to you from the very heavens. With Me, therefore, you shall not make any gods of silver, nor shal you make for yourself any gods of gold. (New JPS)