Talk:Homosexuality and morality

Great start Ed! Very interesting read -- I think we all write much better when we try to be fair and balanced. --maveric149

Ed, I don't think many people claim that there are *no* morals that apply to sex. For instance, not that many people in Western culture, regardless of their views on homosexuality, would view rape as anything other than highly immoral. Therefore, I consider your third group, as stated in the article, largely illusory.

Whilst I stand firmly in the "liberal" camp by saying what consenting adults do behind locked doors is their business, is that not in itself a position on the morality of sexuality? To clarify, I'm *not* saying that you or anyone else have to agree or endorse that view, but I am asserting that it is a position. --Robert Merkel

I am sorry but the opening statement about immorality is ridiculous, and then people who would reject this assumption are cut down in the next statement by being called "advocates." That is offensive. I cannot speak about Christianity first hand, but i will give some insight on the Jewish view.

According to most contemporary Jewish authorities, the Bible does not condemn homosexuality. It cannot condemn homosexuality, because the very concept is a late nineteenth-century construct.
One biblical verse (repeated, as are many other commandments) says that consensual anal sex is forbidden between two men.
Commentators, including the most noted medieval Jewish biblical commentator, Rashi, state clearly that the prohibition refers to anal sex only.
The Hebrew word to'eva is used to describe the act. In the King James version of the Bible, it is translated as "abomination."
To'eva is similarly used to describe a number of other forbidden acts, including using false weights and eating shrimp.
Oddly enough, no one who condemns homosexuality as immoral would say the same about eating shrimp.
The Talmud explains to'eva as a play on words: To'eh ata ba, i.e., you err with it. The precise meaning of what that means is open to various interpretations.
Given the above, most contemporary Jewish religious authorities do not condemn homosexuality as immoral, even if they do continue to forbid anal sex.
In fact, homosexuality figures very little in Jewish responsa literature, which covers just about anything and everything else.
No where in the Bible is lesbianism forbidden. If anything, it is a rabbinic injunction in Judaism.

I will agree that many leaders of the Orthodox community have not been willing to embrace gays. That is probably because of two major factors: a. The importance of the family in transmitting Jewish tradition; b. The influence of Western ideas on Jewish life and law. Nevertheless, change is certainly underway. I would invite whomever wrote that statement to go see Trembling Before G-d," a documentary film that addresses the issue of homosexuality in the Orthodox community (and see if you can find my name in the credits ...) And finally, even the concept of immorality can be argued as being foreign to Judaism, but this is not the place to argue that. It is really a problem of imposing the terminology of one culture on another (see the Talk section on Jews for more on that). But please, do not impose your belief system on mine. Danny

These are good points, and I agree with them all. I think you have summarized quite well the traditional Jewish view on this difficult subject. It is interesting to note, however, that the most left-wing and right-wing Jewish groups have both deviated from this mainstream traditional rabbinic view. The left wing of Reform Judaism (itself the theological left wing of Judaism) holds that homosexuality is a moral issue, and that it is now immoral to be against it! To some in this movement, one must be pro-homosexual, or one is immoral and a bigot. Surprisingly, many in the ultra-Orthodox community (the theological right-wing of Judaims) have now adopted the theology of conservative Christians, and has made homosexuality a moral issue as well. Many ultra-Orthodox rabbis slander homosexuals as immoral perverts, and even use worse language. These groups have a right to their opinions, but a historian must note that (a) these are new positions, innovations, and not the historical Jewish view, and (b) these are still minority positions that most Jews do not agree with. RK

Danny, regarding your point 10 wouldn't the second half of Romans chapter 10 ( http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=rom+1&NIV_version=yes&language=english ) at least count as frowning on homosexualality/lesbianism in a broader sense than particular sex acts? -mhjb

As you will see in my introductory paragraph, I said I was giving the Jewish view. Romans chapter 10 doesn't count in that. Danny Oh, and it is Roman 1 (verse 27 to be precise) that you meant.

Yeah fair enough... isn't there a better word for the Jewish scriptures than 'Bible' though? - mhjb

What's wrong with Bible? We've been calling it that for a long time. longer than anyone else, in fact. ;-) Danny

mwahah

Uncle Ed checked and was reassured that a dubious assertion about funding was dubious and deletable

However, people who consider homosexuality morality acceptable by this argument differ as to what other acts qualify as consenting (cf. age of consent, pedophilia, sodomy).

Not sure what is being said here: does it mean that those who consider homosexuality morally acceptable are hypocritical because they vary on what is not acceptable (e.g. pedophilia). If so, this makes the statement somewhat POV. I also think the association of 'age of consent' with 'pedophilia' to be unnecessary and borderline POV. Of course, people who think homosexuality is OK, think that pedophillia isn't OK. It's not really saying anything important so, unless anyone can give me some reason otherwise, I would like to delete it. Finally, is there some controversy over whether the act of sodomy is consensual? Why is it specifically mentioned in this context?

The purpose of this paragraph is actually to avoid any POV interpretation, namely that people who believe homosexuality is morally acceptable agree on which other sexual behaviors are acceptable. I fail to see how this can be interpreted as hypocrisy, they merely disagree about the meaning of the word consent, and this different definition seems crucial. Some advocates believe that homosexuality, zoophilia, pedophilia etc. are all morally acceptable as long as the "partners" agree, but most people consider a relationship with a very large gradient of power one where consent is not possible. I think any discussion about homosexuality and morality needs to mention the age of consent / pedophilia issue, particular in light of the publications of such people as Judith A. Reisman, who specifically lump homosexuality advocates together with those of pedophilia (NAMBLA etc.). --Eloquence 23:02 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)

I agree with what you say, in fact I think you should possibly put what you just said into the article - in fact, i think it should add that 'the basis that those who believe that homosexuality is acceptable do so on the general basis that what occurs between consenting adults and harms no others should not be judged.' The fact that pedophilia, consent and homosexuality are linked by some individuals should be moved to the section(s) about moral objectors to homosexuality. I just think the sentance is unclear and needs disambiguation. I'd rather you did it than be accused of bias myself or treading on people's toes, although I'm more than happy to work on the article myself.

A small minority of people believes that sexual morality is entirely off limits, or that humans should not judge each other's behavior.

Similarly, I actually believe this is the accepted view of the 'left' or 'liberals' - that, largely, no-one should judge the actions of consenting adults. I don't really consider this view to be a 'minority' view. --Axon

Actually, if you check this paragraph in its context, you will notice that it is placed in contrast to the view that "no one should judge the actions of consenting adults": Namely, this one is about people who think that nobody should judge sexual behavior at all, regardless of whether it is consensual or not. I consider this view mostly absurd and doubt that many people believe in it, it is a remnant of earlier versions of the text and I left it in for completeness. Feel free to remove it if you think it's useless. --Eloquence 23:02 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)

Sounds like it's a view not about homosexuality and morality, but just about morality. Sounds a lot like LaVey satanism, in fact. Perhaps it should be moved to morality? Martin

Sorry Eloquence if I came across a little abrupt, I'm just confused by the sentence(s) and exactly what is meant by it(them). I agree that few people should judge sexual behaviour at all, regardless of whether it is consensual or not. Those who hold that view do, indeed, constitute a very small minority. However, they are such a minority do they warrant mentioning at all? Mentioning them in association with advocates rather implies, accidently in this case, that they share this view. Otherwise, I agree with Martin: this interesting issue should be moved to Morality and expanded upon there.

I think it should be deleted unless someone can actually come up with supporting evidence for this view (advocacy groups etc.). --Eloquence