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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Conti (talk | contribs) at 00:12, 22 December 2004 (→My revert.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Please signature with time stamp for all comments. Every time. Cheers. Gtabary 18:29, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Protein combining

Vgans are ppl who dont eat anything that come from animals The Vegan page should have a nutrition section or a link to one. Vegan diets lack essential proteins unless planned somewhat carefully. For example, corn and beans when eaten together combine to form a protein similar to meat protein. When eaten separately, that combination doesn't occur and the result is malnourishment unless you get the protein some other way. People who stay vegan for a long time have to know about things like this. I decided it was too much bother and chose not to become flat-out vegan partly for that reason. Could someone more knowledgeable than I am about this issue please add some material about it. --phr

Well, protein combining been has shown to be a faulty theory based on a biased study. In fact, Soy protein is equivalant to animal protein for all intents and purposes. You can find more info by going to this site: Vegan Society and scrolling down to Protein Combining. Maybe you can re-evaluate veganism as a personal choice for you? :) TheChin!
We (my partner & I) have been vegan since 1984, and our 4 kids since birth, and I don't think we've ever conciously combined a protien once in all that time but we're all healthy and fine. we just eat a good variety of stuff, lots of fresh veg, fruit, pulses and grains, etc. But a link to vegan nutrition might be of value all the same, it's just that i think it's a myth that vegans have to be any more careful what they eat than anyone else, apart of course from the vitamin B12 which can be deficient (but if you eat lots of marmite it's not a problem :-) quercus robur 19:38, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Macrobiotics

Is macrobiotics more strict than vegan? I thought that macrobiotics ate fish. --mincus

There are more strict versions of veganism. One is the macrobiotic diet.
This is incorrect. Though the macrobiotic diet is very restrictive, it is not a vegetarian diet. See your own definition of macrobiotic for one...

Pronunciation

From Vegan:

"There is a bit of variety in the vegan community; Europeans and Americans not only pronounce it differently..."

So? How *do* they pronounce it?

taken from http://www.vegweb.com/glossary/docs/vegan.shtml
The word vegan was invented by Donald Watson in the 1940's. It is pronounced "vee-gun". This is the most common pronunciation in the UK today. No one can say this pronunciation in "wrong", so this is also the politically correct pronunciation.
In the US, common pronunciations are "vee-jan" and "vay-gn" in addition to "vee-gn", though the American Vegan Society says the correct pronunciation is as per the UK.
(as a side note, I am an American and have always pronunced vee-gun)
Thanks. Suggest this info be included on the Vegan page.

Vegetarianism stub

Regarding the creation of a Vegetarianism page which consists solely of a link to Vegan: I would prefer that such 'empty' stub pages not be created until there is some real content in the article. See Wikipedia commentary/Kill the Stub Pages for some different opinions on this issue.

Anyway, I'll have a first draft of a Vegetarianism article written up by this evening (Melbourne time), but feel free to jump in ahead of me. -- Claudine

Honey

As long time American vegan the statement "European vegans also generally won't eat honey, while American ones generally will" strikes me as false. The majority of people who claim to be vegans that I have met, in the US, do not consume honey nor would they consider it to be vegan.

Breatharian

Finally, there are people who call themselves breatharians, which while not scientifically proven, on paper is a form of veganism. I removed this on the grounds that the article on Jasmuheen, apparently a primary advocate of breatharianism, suggests that she sometimes eats cheesecake...something not reknowned for being vegan. However, if anyone feels strongly that the 'paper definition' of breatharianism is vegan then please return the statement...but, by this token, breatharians are a sub-set of omnivores too! Mazzy

I guess it is vacuously true that Breatharianism is an instance of any kind of diet.

Rewrite

I rewrote this entry pretty substantially

  • include pronunciation
  • include distinction of dietary vegans
  • make distinction between vegan products and practicing vegans
  • some nutrition stuff with reference
  • related diets, religions bit
  • removed out of place bit on Eastern Orthodoxy
  • add useful references and remove silly ones
  • clarify passage on

I'm all for 'balance' but much of

seems to be this person's personal prejudices against vegans & vegetarians, with 'evidence' of the 'harm' that 'extreme' vegetarian diets cause to children. Any bad diet, vegan or vegetarian or omnivorous can cause harm to children. Conversely, any 'good' diet, vegan, veggie or omnivorous, will ensure that childrens nutritional and health needs are met quercus robur 09:29 Feb 7, 2003 (UTC)

Strive

I've restored the word 'strive' to this articel as it's agreed by most vegans I've met that it's virtually impossible to elimonate absolutely ALL animal products from the diet or lifestyle in today's world, eg, most fruit is grown on trees that have been grafted, often using beeswax to join the graft to the rootstock, most vegetable crops will have been grown on land that has been fertilised with animal manure that is a by-product of the farming industry, much commercial sugar has been refined using bone charcoal in it's production and so on... Thus most vegans will accept that they will never totally free themselves from all animal products, but do strive towards this as a goal. quercus robur 20:06 May 9, 2003 (UTC)

By that definition, if a child were raised in a vegan community, never coming into contact with any other way of life, it would not be considered a vegan since there'd be no conscious striving involved. Meanwhile, someone who strives to be vegan but every now and then succumbs to cravings and goes on a McDondald's binge would be considered a vegan.
That strikes me as incorrect; veganism is defined by actions, not intent. You don't re-define an ideal just because you deem it impractical or too difficult to attain. Mkweise 05:34 May 10, 2003 (UTC)
I wonder if there is one single person on the planet who has been able to consciously eliminate all animal products or animal suffering from their lifestyle: even 100% vegan organically grown food involves some degree of pest control which inevitably will cause some mortality to an animal somewhere, even if it's only a slug or 2 falling in a beer trap [actually, vegan organic growers commonly delegate pest control to the local wildlife and don't interfere further. It's up to you whether you consider that vegan or not.]... Therefore the best any vegan can ever do is strive to eliminate animal products and suffering, as it is an unattaniable goal, for by the 'action not intent' criteria most vegans in fact would not be vegan if they were to consume such vegetables, or, indeed, consume fruit from a tree that has been grafted with bees wax, but most vegans would certainly do their best (strive) to elimnate animal products or suffering as far as possible or practical from their lives. This is not the same as popping down McDonalds when the urge takes your fancy, which wouldn't be striving at all... Therefore I would consider it a valid use of the word, but I'm not going to go to war over it :-) quercus robur 09:23 May 10, 2003 (UTC)
It struck to me when I read "strives", because it sounds so pejorative and unbalanced. That many so-called vegans only eliminate partially animal products doesn't change the fact that "a vegan is a person that avoids the use of animal products" (note the absence of "all", and maybe add "tries to" or "to a certain degree"). Not all vegans "strive", and I do know examples. So if you say "strives" you are going to leave out a lot of vegans from the definition, and also you are putting the stress in the wrong place, as the whole point to vegans is to "avoid", not to "strive to avoid".
I thought all that was obvious and that the "strives" thing had simply passed unnoticed, so I changed it. I didn't know there was discussion about it, sorry! Now I said my maybe-not-so-obvious reasons, I am very much for removing "strives", together with "all" and maybe explaining how difficult it is to be "vegan in a full degree". JBC May 20, 2003
No problem, I think with wiki we just have to be a bit careful that what is obvious to one person may not be to another... The edit you are proposing sounds fine to me, BTW, I've been vegan myself since 1984 so I hope you didn't take my comments as being pejorative towards vegans... quercus robur 16:53 20 May 2003 (UTC)
Not at all, it just sounded like that to me, I didn't think it was the intention anyway. And yes, I should be more careful. I'm quite a newbie here at wiki and, by the way, I do appreciate that a much more experienced one like you is taking care of these pages... thanks! JBC 17:25 May 20, 2003 (UTC)
The "as far as possible" clause is definitely preferable to saying "strives", which really bothered me. I still think it's completely redundant, as "avoids" already covers avoidance with partical success. It also weakens the definition, as one's definition of necessity may include e.g. a misinformed doctor's orders. Mkweise 17:28 21 May 2003 (UTC)

Secondhand vegan

How vegan is using second hand leather shoes and clothes? Not at all, or..?

Well, I wouldn't do it (except maybe in an emergency situation), partly because it might send the wrong signals, that it is ok to use leather.. This might encourage people to purchase new leather products. However, this is verging on the pedantic and is in danger of leading vegans to be labelled as cranks. IMHO.
I would say second hand leather shoes are totally vegan. Veganism is always moral/political, never entirely dietary, so vegans don't buy new leather because it pays for the slaughter of a cow and the toxic tanning of its hide, but the cow has already been killed if its second hand and buying used things is enviromentally friendly. IMHO. Hyacinth 16:57, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
By the same argument then it is ok, indeed required, to purchase lampshades made from the skin of Auschwitz victims, rather than a new lampshade made from synthetic materials, if we have that choice. I know what my choice would be. Sorry to be so extreme, but these things are happening every day to animals.
TonyClarke 19:23, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
There's also the economic side of things to consider. If you buy second-hand animal products then none of your money goes to fund further production of the same; however, the second-hand item you bought will then not be available for any omnivore who may come by later, and they may (or may not) decide to go off and buy an equivalent new animal-derived item. It's a bit abstract, but a valid point, I think. Karl Naylor 11:49, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

CNN Poll

I wonder about the validity of the CNN poll quoted in this article: perhaps it rules out people who are vegan, but would not call themselves vegetarian? TonyClarke 13:02, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I truck some of the source about percentage of vegan. One of it say "We will again survey the U.S. adult population in a few years.". As normal for most survey, children are excluded. I left u.k. which claim in the page that it is 0.4 percent of u.k. population being vegan because it is what it say. however, i suspect they make the same error. FWBOarticle 12:26, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ethics of Motivation

I could said that veganism is in and of itself imoral, as plants are not considered able to "feel" by vegans dispite the lack of traits that make animals mentaly,or emotionaly distinctive from plants.Thus veganism is just as "Kingdomist" as vegans consider non-veganism specist.

Removed the above from main article, many vegans use the basis of sentience as the line upon which to draw their ethical objections to the use of animal products. Most plants aren't demonstrably sentient in the way that most animals are, and even if vegans are mistaken in their ethics regarding this issue, it doesn't make them 'immoral'quercus robur 16:53, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Vegan & vegetarian food

Some people consider the usage "vegan food" to be synonymous with "vegetarian food", however a necessary distinction due to the strange but popular notion that dairy and eggs (and sometimes even fish or fowl) to be "vegetarian foods".

Removed the above from the main article. The existence of the market for "vegetarian eggs" shows that, indeed, eggs are believed to be vegetarian. A vegetarian egg is one where the chicken is fed corn and not bone meal. It's silly to be splitting hairs on the old "how vegetarian is vegetarian" debate and it doesn't really belong on the vegan page anyway, because vegan was a term created just to avoid hair splitting like this. If text like the above were included (to get rid of any true confusion) it shouldn't call the notion "strange". MShonle 07:09, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Hi Mshonle,

I would appreciate this being (partially) reverted, as I can argue the term "vegan product" is unnecessary, as it should be synonomous with "vegetarian product". However, many corporations are involved in deceptive practices and label foods "100% Vegetarian!" or "Suitable for Vegetarians" which contain animal products. This is should be addressed in the article.

The word "vegetarian" (person) is a synonym for herbivore, meaning, eating only plants. Now I realize that many people who call themselves vegetarian consume dairy and eggs. This does not make dairy and eggs "vegetarian".

A vegetarian diet is "Consisting primarily or wholly of vegetables and vegetable products". (refer) Eggs and dairy ARE NOT VEGETABLE PRODUCTS. There is nothing at all "vegetarian" about a cheese omlet, for example.

I would consent to removal of "strange" if this controversy was covered.

MShonle 23:10, 20 Jan 2004 (UTC) replies: First, vegan product is not synonmous with vegetarian product. Lip balm could be made of beeswax, which is vegetarian. Also, a vegetarian product could be tested on an animal, a vegan product never can be tested. Further more, vegetarian to refer to people is not a synonym for herbivore. The word vegetarian did not derive from the word vegetable, it derived from the latin vegitus, which means lively, energetic (think of vegetation).
Also, wether you like it or not, the word vegetarian refers to people who do not eat meat but who possibly eat eggs and dairy. In fact, the wiki entry for vegetarian even begins saying this is so. Language is dictated by usage, not by fiat. The majority of the literature today says vegetarian means, for example, that cheese is ok, just as long as it doesn't have rennet. I challenge you to go to any vegetarian restaurant in America and order any random menu item to give to a vegan: odds are they would not find that policy acceptable. Either case, you do not seem impartial on this controversy. If it was one or two companies messing up and claiming rennet is vegetarian, that's one thing. You should post something discussing the confusion in meaning, but please be impartial and don't say that one is "the correct" one. A put it on the vegetarian page. You are confusing "strict vegetarian" with "vegetarian."

Sublingual

What is a sublingual vitamin? Rmhermen 16:16, Feb 9, 2004 (UTC)

Norm?

Also, a 'vegan' diet is the norm in most parts of the world, partly for economic reasons, but a clear outcome is the absence of the diseases of the developed world such as cancer, heart and other obesity-related illnesses.

(1) You're saying that cancer and heart disease are absent in vegan societies? I'm sure that's not true. (2) Is obesity less common in parts of the world because of veganism or because of a lack of abundance of available food? (3) What exactly does "the norm in most parts of the world" mean? I can believe that most of the world follows a mostly vegan diet (whether from ideology or necessity), but I doubt that most of the world follows a purely vegan diet.

I think this sentence needs some NPOV-ing.

These facts are quoted by those who feel that 'veganism' is a modern localised and reactionary movement, rather than a movement which advocates a return to what is seen as a healthier and simpler lifestyle.

Uh, this is backwards isn't it? These facts would be quoted by people who think that veganism is a return to what is seen as a healthier and simpler lifestyle, no?

Axlrosen 15:39, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmm - I would have guessed people ate whatever they could get - insects, bushmeat, etc. I don't think this common veganism will stand scrutiny. Rmhermen 15:44, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

Hi OK hands up, I'll look at what I wrote again, with your valued comments in mind.

TonyClarke 23:09, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, that's improved. Still some concerns:
* I'm not convinced that in most parts of the world, people follow a mainly vegan diet. Do you have a (relatively unbiased) reference for this?
* The whole flow of the "reaction or return to nature" section still seems out of whack to me. I'm not sure what it's getting at. Does it really say what it's supposed to say? The first two paragraphs, and the last paragraph, seem to be saying that veganism is NOT a return to nature, while the 3rd and 4th paragraphs seem to be saying that it is. Yet there are now "however"s or "on the other hands"s as I would expect. I'm confused.
Axlrosen 15:52, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hi,

Well as regards point one, googling produced some statistics on two countries chosen at random, Zimbabwe and Pakistan, info from the Food and Agricultural Organisation, admittedly there is not good nutrition in these countries, to put it mildly:

"Cereals and green vegetbles form the main part of the Zimbabwean diet...table shows 2 1/2 per cent on average of daily energy supply obtained from animal sources. (1997 ) info from http://www.fao.org/es/esn/nutrition/zim-e.stm Pakistan: the consumption of meat and fish is very low, providing 2% of daily energy Cereals are the main source of dietary energy(62%)"

`I suspect more than 2% of our supermarkets are given over to animal based foods?

Point two, I'll have another look at the flow.

TonyClarke 18:32, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

www.fao.org is an interesting resource, thanks for pointing that out. Wherever you Googled that from, they're reading it wrong. They seem to be looking at the percentage of "meat & offal", but ignoring "fish & seafood", "animal fats", and "milk & eggs". Here are the total numbers for a few different countries:
China: 16%
India: 7.5%
Pakistan: 14%
Zimbabwe: 8%
Granted, I'm sure the numbers for the US and Europe are higher than this - but I'd hardly call this "mainly vegan". (Even for a low number like India's - I know that milk products are a regular part of most Indian diets.) Since China + India + US + Europe is over half the world's population, I think we can safely conclude that the majority of the world is NOT vegan or "mainly vegan". (What does "mainly vegan" even mean? If I eat 49% animal products then am I "mainly vegan"?)
So, I think this stat has to go.
Axlrosen 19:00, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hi The figures I looked at did not seem so high, and seemed to include fish, dairy etc. Statistics can be deceiving. I've reworded it to refer to vegetarian or vegan, and made some other changes to try to make clear what I meant. I changed the financial reason for widespread veganism, it suggested the amusing picture of people waiting thousands of years for affordable hamburgers to come along (!), hope you don't mind. TonyClarke 23:10, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Nutrition References

Secretlondon: you've moved the "References" section from nutrition to the end of the document. Those references apply specifically to nutrition and not to veganism in general - should they not therefore stay in the nutrition section? If not, we should probably add a note like "see references below" in that section, and change the heading "References" to a == instead of a === KarlNaylor 09:06, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK, as it's been 7 days since I posted this (I wrote the above on the 5th, but only added a signature on the 7th when I'd made a username for myself), and there's been no reply, I'm gonna go ahead and attempt to fix the situation myself. Feel free to change it if you don't like it. -- Karl Naylor 14:14, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have deleted POV which say that you may not need to take B12 supplement. I have come across this comment.

"I recently attended a talk at the London Vegan Society where a wealth of scientific research was used to demonstrate the serious health risks of B12 deficiency in the Vegan diet. The UK Vegan society have now changed their advice on their website and now strongly recommend all Vegans to supplement with B12 vitamins or fortified foods regularly. It is vital that the myth that the issue of B12 deficiency is not a problem for Vegans is challenged. Did you know for example that Vegans who do not take regular supplements or fortified foods have a lower life expectancy than meat eaters!. Of course if people are sensible and use supplements/fortified foods the risks are removed and the Vegan diet comes out as excellent for health and longevity.
On the issue of pregnant women/breast feeding mothers: their babies or children can die due to the Mother's B12 deficiency as the effects of B12 deficiency are far more dramatic for a foetus or young developing child relying totally on breast milk for nourishment. For vegans themselves the risks of long term deficiency are nerve damage, and anaemia. I don't want to be over dramatic but I think this is the most important piece of information a Vegan needs to know. I cannot think of anything more tragic than a woman losing a child after adopting a diet to express compassion to all life. "

Though there is nothing wrong with stating POV as long as attribution is made, I think in this case, listing this POV may be morally irresponsible. We might as well state that "some people think smoking harm fetus while other think not." FWBOarticle 03:49, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Most __ sugar

User:Mshonle, User:Mkweise, "most" what?Hyacinth 03:14, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

See [1] in the edit history. Most (if not all) vegans avoid sugar that has been filtered through bone char, etc. You'll find lots of info on the web (and in books predating the web) about which brands of various products are known to be suitable for vegans and which aren't. Mkweise 04:36, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"Some vegans replace white table sugar with unbleached cane sugar or dehydrated and granulated cane juice, both of which are available in natural food stores. Most of these products can replace white sugar measure for measure for general use (such as on cereal or in beverages) and in recipes." [2] Given that some "vegans" choose to consume honey, the sugar issue shouldn't be so absolute. Even though I don't think honey is vegan, people who consume it but are otherwise vegan should still be identified as such. It's in product labeling of something being vegan that it's important that no rules are broken.
Tipu's Tiger of Missoula, Montana, uses possibly bone-char filtered, probably partially bone-char filtered sugar in their 'vegan' items. PETA is okay with this as they featured Tipu's: [3] or [4] (which are essentially the same).Hyacinth 08:24, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Remember: PETA is an animal rights advocacy group, not a vegan advocacy group. I see no reason for PETA to oppose the use of bone char, since no animal was ever harmed in its making. Mkweise 13:33, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Actually PETA advocates veganism, though they rarely use the term (they do use it more frequently on PETA2.com) and, since bone char requires that an animal be killed so as to remove its bones...Hyacinth 18:06, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
For the purposes of building an encyclopedia, please don't go merrily redefining words according to how you think they ought to be used. A vegan who chooses to consume honey and/or milk thereby ceases to be a vegan and becomes a strict vegetarian (that's what I am, BTW, though I have been a vegan in the past.) Mkweise 13:33, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Ahem, the definition of vegan on this page includes "as far as is possible and practical". A literal interpretation would imply practically no one but the most staunch isolationist could ever be vegan. That's not what veganism is about... it's about doing what you can. If a pan had meat in it before, and that's the only pan you have, a person no longer stops being a vegan by using it. (For what it's worth, strict vegetarians do not consume milk.) MShonle 17:03, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)
For the purposes of building an encyclopedia, please don't go merrily redefining words against common usage according to fiat. Hyacinth 18:06, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Fruitarianism

Occasionally veganism is criticized as a prejudiced position, in that plants are alive and that not killing should also extend to plants. Although this argument is used to suggest an absurdity of veganism by people with less stringent diets, it also forms the basis of fruitarianism for some people.

Mshonle, you removed this on the grounds that 'veganism is not specifically criticized by fruitarians'. I wasn't intending to imply that it was; I added this as an argument used by omnivores and lacto-ovo-vegetarians, and thought I should also point out the link to fruitarianism. This is based on the edits by User:205.188.116.79 that you previously removed as vandalism. Maybe this issue could be better integrated with the existing reference to f'ism, but since the main point is to show that veganism has been criticized as prejudicial or as a kind of half measure, it seemed better under ==Backlash==. Does anyone have any ideas how this can be better integrated? -- Karl Naylor 12:42, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

We've been removing that "kingdomism" guy for many months now; we don't need to bend over backward to satify a troll. Omnivores and lacto-ovos don't criticize vegans for eating plants. And while Fruitarians may criticise people who do eat plants, their main target is not veganism. There's a good discussion about the Inuit on the vegetarian page, and maybe we should copy that content. If we are to say anything under "backlash" we should have some evidence it actually exists. MShonle 16:23, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Fair enough, your point about evidence is well received. I've personally had the argument thrown at me a couple of times (by omnivores) that if I'm giving up milk and eggs, then 'surely' I should avoid hurting plants too, and this led me to accept the argument as a common one without checking for evidence that it was. -- Karl Naylor 18:00, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Actually, I've just noticed that the ==Similar diets= section mentions 'the aforementioned fructarian diet', but I can't find any other references in the article. Perhaps something was deleted? -- Karl Naylor 13:09, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ethical criticism

"Some would say that veganism itself is prejudiced, hypocritical, and nonsensical for the following reasons:"

  • "it is prejudiced aganst plants, bacteria etc. and thus constitutes speciesism. This viewpoint is related to fructarianism;"
  • "it does not take into acount that simply by living a human being is killing many bacteria by the involuntary actions of ones immune system."

"However, the latter criticism does not take into account the point (above) that veganism means making whatever effort one feels is reasonable to avoid causing harm to animals—in most societies today, avoiding all harm even to the most apparently sentient animals is practically impossible. Many vegans feel that causing their biological functions to cease in order to avoid killing bacteria is not reasonable."

I removed the above. "Prejudice" against plants and bacteria would not be speciesism, as neither are species. "Prejudice" against bacteria would be "domainism", and "prejudice" against plants would be kingdomism. I'm not aware of serious sources which make these criticisms (or their accurate versions). Hyacinth 19:22, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

In the Criticism section it says, "Others argue that, given that animals are killed in vegetable production or any other economic activities, the question over how much of indirect killing is acceptable is ultimately a matter of personal preference and lifestyle choice." But I'm wondering, other than bees, how are animals killed in vegetable production? Milk 20:33, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Try going to a farm during harvesting season. Ask if you can ride along with harvester. Field animal get flushed through the machine and they will go through agonising death if they fail to die instantly. Also, here is a joke based on it. http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html FWBOarticle 04:00, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Of course, though unprovable, it is entirely possible, that vegans are morally superior: it has been asserted that no serial murderers in the U.S. have been consumers of a vegan diet."

Could somebody please edit or delete the above mentioned sentence! The moral fabric of a society has little to do with the psychological illnesses of some mass murderers (which make up for not even a fraction of one percent of the total population). The above mentioned sentence thus leads to false conclusions (namely that there were scientific proof that vegans are morally superior, which is by no means the case). As a side note: Adolf Hitler, in his final years was an ethic vegetarian, yet he was responsible for approx. 50.000.000 deaths. We shouldn't be lead down the slippery slope of equating one form of diet with madness, yet this is exactly what the above mentioned sentence implies. It is a biased statement that holds no informationals value. A better version / deletion would be much appreciated. User:84.135.154.52 00:44, 1 Oct 2004

Done. Thanks for pointing that out! --Conti|✉ 22:58, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

Trans Fats

Recently there has been a bit of deleting and reverting on the trans fats section. What does everyone think, should we leave it in, revise it, or delete it? I think it should be left in, but perhaps make it more clear that this is a nutritional issue not just for vegans but for anyone who eats processed food. Rosemary Amey 20:04, 25 May 2004 (UTC)

Here is my base on deleting/rewriting the Trans Fat section.

  • First, Trans-fat (hydrogenated oils) is found in all types of food, not just Vegan. In fact it is mostly found in junk food, fast food, or any highly processed food and not vegan food. Companies that make vegan food know how bad hydrogenated oil is and usually do not included it in their products.
  • Secondly, the paragraph states it's "found in some popular vegan products such as veggie-burgers, french fries, and almost all baked goods." This is a huge over generalization. People who love french fries are most likely non-vegan and most likely get their fries from fast food restaurants, which certainly do use hydrogenated oils when making them.
  • Any health conscious vegan knows to avoid hydrogenated and partially hydrogenated oils. I think this paragraph was written with "lazy" vegans in mind. Yes there are many vegans and even more vegetarians who eat a lot of junk food and do not practice good nutrition, but that's a whole other article. Which is why I don't think this short paragraph should be included in the Vegan-Nutrition section. I have also read many Vegan Nutrition guides and none have ever mentioned to watch out for trans-fats. I discovered them on my own.

So I think this section should either be deleted or re-wrote to expand it and include some of the points I made. Milk 27 May 2004

I know lots of vegans who love french fries and other vegan junk foods, so I think this should be left in but reworded so that it doesn't look like this is a special vegan issue, since most non-vegans probably consume way more trans fats. (By the way, you can quickly add your name and the date and time to your comment by typing four tildes (~) together.) Rosemary Amey 17:52, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it should be re-written then. I will go ahead and then you can see if it's ok. Milk 15:58, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Alternative Medicine

There is nothing particularly alternative about veganism. Veganism is supported by mainstream medical science and these days most opposition to the vegan diet comes from alternative practitioners (such as the blood type diet, Atkins, etc). I do not like seeing veganism associated with "alternative" medicine. Many vegans (myself included, obviously) are skeptical about alternative medicine. I would like to remove that text box at the bottowm, but what do others think? Rosemary Amey 16:10, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I agree. While veganism is considered an "alternative diet or lifestyle" it should not be associated with "alternative medicine". Milk 01:39, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Every article can be classsified more than one way. So, it is with a lot of mainstream activities like exercise and diet. They are part of natural approaches to health such as Natural hygiene which is classified alternative medicine. I have replaced the orange box with one that doesn't even look like a box. -- John Gohde 07:53, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Now it just looks out of place. This article already has a see also section Which you are free to place alturnaive medcine link if you feel they are relivant. There are a number of other places the role of vegaism in alt med could be better covered.12:46, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)


Modern veganism in context

I have corrected minor factual error about Buddhism and vegan. Chinese buddhist practice vegetarianism but not veganism. The rest of buddhist schools don't. Jain monks practice much stricter form of veganism. Also, in developing countries, they didn't eat much meat or daily product simply because they were poor and lack of protein intake were genuine and serious health problem. That obviously change once these people become wealthy enough to be able to pay for imported food and supplement.

yes, all over the world "developing" countries are becoming Westernized and adopting the western traditions of heavy meat and dairy intake, and so they are also developing our common health problems. Japan is a prime example of this. More and more fast food restaurants are opening up, and now many Japanese children are becoming overweight. Milk 20:36, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think that increase in intake of suger, cereal, meat and eggs ought to be described as sign of increased affuluence and labelling it as "Westernization" is a POV given that these type of foods are common in most culture. On the other hand, popularisation of dairy product is certainly part of "Westernization" as many culture did not always consume milk of other mammals. Plus the extent in which dairy product contribute to the problem of obesity is bit debatable IMO. FWBOarticle

More information on this can be found in the book "Diet for a New America" by John Robbins, and his more recent book "The Food Revolution". He describes how countries with the highest intake of meat and diary have the highest rates of osteoperosis, heart disease, etc. But many factors could go into that as well. More info on the link between meat/diary and obesity/health problems can be found at: www.goveg.com, www.milksucks.com, www.pcrm.org Milk 00:42, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Or you might find that people who eat right type of food for the right amount have the best health. If those lazy fat arse switch to vegan, do you really think they look after their diet. Surely we would be switching one health problem with others. Best and easiest diet to follow is to eat the right type of food (including meat) with right amount. Trying to promote vegan diet as "healthier" diet is dishonest in my view. More accurate representation is to say vegan diet can be as healthy as others thought some medical research seems to disagree. The case for vegan is in ethics, not health.
The China Study found that the optimum amount of animal products in the diet is zero. Meat is never "the right type of food" in any amount for humans, even ignoring issues of ethics. Rosemary Amey 18:06, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, given that there is no reliable source of vitamine B12 from vegetables, the logic of research is highly questionable or someone took the research out of context. Either way, can you state the source of "The China Study"? Anyway, when one's main argument is matter of ethics, why bother with redhearing. Sound like a Jehovah's witness I talked to. He was telling me that blood transfusion is unnecessary. I told him he won't do it even (hypothetically) it is necessary. So why bother.
Wikipedia has a short article about the China Study at China project. Rosemary Amey 06:26, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Chinese cooking is famous for using anything it move. Are Westernisation of Chinese diet suppose to mean eating more type of meat? :-)
Anyway, the research doesn't say anyting new. You overeat fat and carb, you become fat and get illness/disease related to being fat. Am I supposed to be enlightened by this?

Whoever wrote the above, please take more time in contributing thoughts by spelling correctly and writing coherently. Milk 20:31, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

ah, sorry. I was told that engrish is about the point where people can understand what i'm trying to say but with some difficulty. I will TRY. (^_^). FWBOarticle 19:23, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Human hair?

I agree with User:ContiE that products using human hair are still vegan, but I'm wondering what User:Heegoop has to say on the matter. Heegoop, are you a vegan who avoids human hair, or do you know vegans who do? And if so, why? Rosemary Amey 18:28, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

(copied from user talk:rosemaryamey)

Human hair is not vegan

Human hair from salons is not vegan because human hair is techinally an animal product. Vegans do use the human hair they grow but not other human's hair. You see humans are actually animals because they are in the kingdom Animalia. Vegans also avoid other human products such as keratin. Get the picture, vegans do not use human products. Now I am not vegan but I thought about being vegan. - Heegoop, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have never heard of any vegan avoiding human hair. Vegans avoid animal products because of the suffering and exploitation involved, neither of which apply to freely given human hair. Rosemary Amey 23:32, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, this issue is very weird and getting too technical. Yes humans are technically animals but thats taken it to the extreme. I have never heard any vegan mention human products as part of their veganism. Use of human hair is not very common anyways. Wigs are mostly made with horse hair, right? I also have a problem with mentioning human mother's milk. The way it's written seems as if adult vegans drink milk from lactating women, which is wrong. It should be written in way to describe the "milk" vegans avoid as not including human milk, only cow-milk, goat-milk, etc. Milk 00:33, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It is not unusual for lactating mothers to let their adult partners have a sip. I have also heard of a woman giving her milk to her husband in the hopes that it would treat his cancer. Rosemary Amey 02:39, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

We seem to be forgetting the motivation that more accurately characterizes veganism than any dietary prohibition. There are at least two important differenes:

  • Humans may consent to the use of their hair, non-human animals can not.
  • Human hair, from barber shops, is removed in a usually cruelty-free manner.

This is simply another "What if...?" question. "What if you were trapped on a lifeboat, just you and a chicken, would you eat the chicken?" Hyacinth 03:50, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

How about, "Vegans generally do not eat human hair, but in extremis, their cravings for animal-derived products may lead them to break their principles. Human hair is preferred to other products because it can be given with the consent of the animal. Human hair should be from an vegan and organically-fed human who also does not use shampoo or any other nasty chemicals in their hair. It must be chopped up into small pieces to avoid the puking problem cats tend to have, and then boiled for a minimum of three hours, preferably with some vegetable stock, and used to make soup. Yum! Dunc_Harris|☺ 22:39, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This page needs a total rewrite!

I used to like this page, it was succinct and to the point- now it is a complete mess, badly written with mashed up grammar and worse than useless beyond the first couple of paragraphs IMHO. The 'backlash' section is particularly bad, by no stretch of the imagination NPOV. The whole page needs a total rewrite, leaving in the useful, factual stuff but stripping out all the opinionated POV, preferably chucking 'backlash' in the dustbin. I'm no the one to do it, nt enough time plus I'm biased (vegan for 20 years) so anyone sensible fancy having a crack??? quercus robur 19:03, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I appreciate if you can make correction on grammer. The fact that you are vegan should not be a problem for this. Secondly, the purpose of this site is to present different POV with proper attribution. You said opinionated POV should be stripped. But is there a such thing as point of view which is not an opinion? The section is about criticism and backlash against vegan. Surely, such section ought present views which criticise vegan rationale.

FWBOarticle 19:40, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I would say that the NPOV is exactly that point of view which is not an opinion. I'm going to take a swing at it now. Pjrich 04:09, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Criticism and Backlash section

"Another criticism is that the ethical principle behind veganism is arbitrary."

Since when is there only one ethical principle behind veganism? Some people have a vegan diet just because they think it is healthier to eat no animal products. It should be made clear that these arguments only deal with the ethic principle of harming no animal at all. Most vegans do know that they can't stop all animal suffering with their diet, they do what they can to minimize it tho.

I never met vegan who practice veganism for health but not for animal right. If someone say "the ethical principle behind veganism", everyone recognise what this refer to. I accept that other justification can be made. But we all know what is the driving force behind veganism. Another thing I'm also refering to is the way the vegan logic is applied, that is it's extention of moral responsibility to indirect consequene of the action. This apply to environment as well as animal right. This issue is discussed below.


"However, critics point out that most vegan are not prepared to go as far as cultivating crops by themselves or stop having children to minimize animal suffering."

I don't get it. Do you mean that the children may eat meat in the future and therefore increase animal suffering..? If yes, that is a rather ridiculous argument IMO.

--Conti|✉ 21:08, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

Well, this is actually raised in the debate (philosophical and very academic I might add) over the ethics of vegan/vegetarian diet. Obviously, main idea of not eating meat is that this amount to indirect killing of animal. Then it logically follow that one should look into ALL action which involve indirect killing. In this debate, it was pointed out that one single act which involve the most indirect killing of animal is human reproduction. By reproducing offspring, you will be indirectly responsible of (indirect) killing committed by your childrent as well as all of their decendants. The potential number would be massive, possibly nearly infenite. Now, as you pointed out, vegan do accept that animal do get killed in other activities. And if certain activities are necessaly, they allow it. This include use of medicine or not growing crop by yourself or not being fruitarian. However, this defence can not be raised for copulation. Unlike in developing country, you don't need child to surive in your old age. And contraception is quite easy thing to practice not to mention about abortion. In fact, sterlisation is one off thing which gurantee this result. So, it naturally follow that it is moral duty of animal right advocate to sterlise themselves. If you want kid, go for adoption. Anyway, this argument is raised to point out that moral responsiblity of "indirect consequence" is a pandora's box. Another pandora's box is to extending animal right to non human. Anyway, Jain and Buddhist dealt with this problem 2000 years ago, each side taking two opposite position. Jain decided to avoid all indirect killing while Buddhah made distinction between direct killing and eating of already dead meat. He declared it as karmatically neutral.
I met vegans who told me they do it for health reasons, but I admit that they are in the minority. The problem I see here is that you assume that vegans force their will on others (i.e. their own children). Technically spoken, vegans may kill more animals indirectly when they have children, but I think most of the vegans think higher of their own children than of their own lifestyle and do not have a problem at all with this. It seems that many critics think that vegans try to avoid all killings of animals by all means, which is simply not true. They try to reduce suffering of animals, and the most logical step is not to use any animals products. I think we should not mention "A vegan would eat an animal if he will die otherwise" types of criticisms, and "vegans shouldn't have children then" is pretty much the same level IMHO. --Conti|✉ 23:11, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)
It doesn't matter whether kids are vegan or not because vegan diet is not bloodless. In fact it is preferable to indoctrinate your children for veganism but still it raise the question of why you had children in the first place. The point is that you can reduce "potentially" near infnite amount of indirect killing by having children while there is no practical need to have kid. FWBOarticle 23:19, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Oh, would you not agree that those vegan for health group aren't strictly vegan because they fall into the same category as people who practice atkin diet and they slip invariably. Anyway, I will change it to something like "primarly moral case for vegan" or something like that. FWBOarticle 23:27, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I removed the last paragraph, because I think it is extremy exaggerated. You can't seriously tell someone that he's wrong because he's doing it not consequently enough, where the most consequently action would be the death of mankind... --Conti|✉ 23:33, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

Ah, I intend to avoid edit war so I will wait for your response before reverting your delet. You appear to be online. The purpose of this site is to present different view with proper attribution. Therefore POV should not be censored as long as proper attribution is made though extremly minor view can be ommitted. Pandora's box in the case of human reproduction is often raised argument. It is even mentioned in Maddox's Guiltless grill page. And once you take this logic to natural conclusion, then the ideal state is indeed "peaceful" death of mankind. Yes, it sound proposterous/outrageous. And that is the whole point. The critics use it to argue that the "logical" implication is proposterous/outrageous hence it ought to be discarded.FWBOarticle 23:48, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
In this kind of logic is indeed a logical step. The problem is that this is not the vegan logic. Vegans do not try to be 100% consequently in their actions, because that is simply impossible. They try to be more consequently in their actions than others, which led to some people saying that they should be 100% consequently for whatever reason. It is simply illogical to say this in my opinion. I'd like to stay with the more "reasonable" arguments against veganism (veganism being unhealthy etc.). You can put the paragraph back in the article if you want, but I do disagree with it the way it is at the moment. --Conti|✉ 00:02, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)
I accept that vegan actually make allowance for practicality and necessity. Critics is simply asserting that reproduction cannot be justified on this ground as contraception is easy and no argument of necessity can be made and the harm is indeed massive. Another point the critics are making is that when allowance are made for convenience and practicality, there is no cohesive moral ground for vegan practice, hence accusation of being arbitarary. Anyway, this is just one POV. Some people are trying to resolve this conflict. Anyway, there should be a place in Wikepedia where these debates are more comprehensively presented. FWBOarticle 01:41, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Even this allowance of practicality can be argued against. Here is the economic multiplier argument as opoosed to population multiplier argument. If you buy something/anything, you are indirectly paying someone's wage, which they will use to buy something including meat which in turn let someone else to buy meat and the process of multiplier will continute infinitely. Hence it follow that you should not buy anything unless it is practical necessity for you. Moreover, this could further point to this revelation. The idea that diet consisting meat harm more animal than vegan/vegetarian is true only if one limit the scope of connection to "production" process. Once the scope is widen to economic connection (and there is no reason why it shouldn't) then because mathematically time line is set to infinity, then the difference in death toll will disappear. Then whether one eat meat or not only has "symbolic" significance, a token gesture to the idea of respect to whelfare of animal. Practically it is irrelevant. Now you can counter this argument a bit. You could assert that for each step of connection, the karma/guilt can be discounted, the rate of discount being arbitaraly decided. In this case, it is indeed possible to assert that vegan has less karma/guilt. But notice that discount rate is totally subjective. It is possible to set discount rate to 100% totally absolving people who eat meat by buying from the third party. And there is no way to critise that the rate of 100% as inappropriate no more than to critise that rate of 0% or 70% as inappropriate. My god, my head hurt now. :D FWBOarticle 02:26, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Err, what exactly do you want to tell the world with these obsucre theories? With this kind of argumentation you can argue against pretty much any lifestyle etc., but there is a reason that the critics section usually does not have such argumentations.. --Conti|✉ 15:54, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)
Hehehe, this isn't an obscure argument. It is vegan/vegetarian who invoke this line of arguments that is animal right and indirect moral responsiblity. Meat eaters don't. Pointing out that invoking such argument open unlimited channel of blame is a classic counter argument. Meat eater are not bothered because they haven't invoked this moral logic in the first place. This is also an ancient debate between Buddhism and Jainism. Both accepted aniaml right. Jainism further accepted indirect moral responsibility so Jain monks indeed disengage themselves from the world. Buddhism rejected indirect moral responsibility, so buddhist can buy meat from the third party but they can't kill animals by themselves. May be, the presentation of the arguments are poor due to my Engrish. However, this argumentation is the major criticism of vegan moral logic. Also in jurisprudence, the issue regarding the conspiracy also raise the same problem.
Agreed, it is not obscure, it is just as impractical as you purpot veganism to be.
MUCH MORE importantly, what has this all to do with the article? If you have a source to cite please add the info to the article, if you don't please don't. Hyacinth 00:15, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Here is the quote in the begining of the article. "The word 'veganism' denotes a philosophy and way of living". Vegan make great deal about ethics. So that is exactly what you get. Philosophical response on logic of vegan ethical argument. So I presented a philosophical criticism. And do google search with "vegan" and "consequentialism". You realised that it is nearly THE debate on vegan from philosophical perspective. This section is supposed to be about critics and backlash against vegan. I think I done fair job for explaining the context of vegan backlash (aside from my English that is). FWBOarticle 04:48, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
That may all be the case, but Wikipedia:Cite sources. Hyacinth 02:57, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
As far as I know, facts have to be cited, argument just have to be attributed. Hmmm, would you be much happier if I discuss the critics in much more general reference to "consequentialism" of vegan philosophy. FWBOarticle 05:29, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
My problem with the argument is that it seems naive, it is a consideration that any serious or long term vegan, and thus any longterm or serious critic of veganism, has moved past (for example, vegans commonly debate or differ opinions over refined-sugar and honey, but, more than possible, it is necessary as a vegan or good-willed non-vegan to make choices "impractical" under a strict consequentialist argument). Any such arguments are based on specifics, as with any ethical or moral choice, all choices, and are arguments that could be and often are made against any and every ethical or moral choice. I think this general factor in moral and ethic debates, noted as such, may be quickly summarized, followed by specific arguments. Vegans, exactly as non-vegans, choose or not a moral line and stick to it or not, to act as if this is a common persuasive argument against any and all forms of veganism is to state the obvious, especially if it is given as much space in the article as I have given it hear. Hyacinth 06:50, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

My revert.

I reverted FWBOarticle's last edit because I think the argumentation he uses is simply ridiculous. Stating that the vegan lifestyle is not "real" or whatever simply because you can't save every single soul in the universe is simply illogical. Please stop adding such kinds of argumentation to the article. --Conti|✉ 18:51, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

First of all, I assume that 130.88.243.185 is FWBOarticle not logged in. I reverted again because the edit the anon (FWBOarticle) made is essentially expanding the first paragraph of the "Moral/ethical" section into two big paragraphs, just with alot more POV/silliness in it:

"When we drive car, purchase books, switch the light on, we indirectly contribute to the destruction of environment hence taking of life." (emphasis mine)

Sure we can state "if you breathe, some bacterias die!" as an argument on the article (which is technically true), but we can also show this argument in a more serious way, and I think the paragraph is very fine the way it is at the moment. Therefore I think that I do not "censor" anything here, and there is nothing to "counter" any arguments, I just think they are prestented in a very weird way, and that the current paragraph does this in a way better way. --Conti|✉ 16:57, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)

ahh, When you switch the light on, you are using electricity and where do you think that come from. On top of that, you do need to eat to survive while you don't need to read or use paper to wipe your bottom. And once talking about use of car or using airplane for holiday (which you don't need.) I certainly do not advocate stop breathing (which you need) but next time you wipe your bottom or read newspaper, you have (unnecessarily) blood on your hand. Do you think it is stupid. I do. Anyway, obviously, you are bias toward veganism and that is why you fail to see the difference. Stay away from criticism part. A pro vegan is not appropriate person to judge what is an approrpiate criticism
Opps, one IE was loged in while the other wasn't. Yep, it's me. Sorry.
The point of veganism is to reduce animal suffering, not to nullify it (which is completely impossible, as you point out). Again, I do not oppose this kind of argumentation. While I think that it is quite weird, it is an argument that is used often and I think the current paragraph on it is quite ok. I do see no point in expanding it with detailed arguments as yours tho. So, why is the paragraph not enough and why do we need to make such specific examples?
Also, I'm biased in favour of veganism (while I'm not one myself) as you're biased against it, telling other wikipedians to stay out of some section because of that is quite unfriendly. We could put this on RfC and see what others think about this discussion. --Conti|✉ 17:46, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)
Well, but are you a vegetarian? Anyway, the title of section is "criticism". So I'm voicing my opinion in the right place. While you appear trying to make "criticism" section to "apologist" section. As of your argument by appealing to "utilitarianism" logic, read the last section. It state that "veganism is not exactly wrong but misguided". IMO, utilitarianims doen't offer excuse for misguided effort (which obvious depends on everyone's POV). FWBOarticle
Oh, here is also why I don't dig veganism. http://www.foodnavigator.com/news/news-ng.asp?id=46295-veggies-good-for I prefer to consume in moderation including eating meat in moderation. Veganism appear to me like misguided symbolism. FWBOarticle
I'm not a vegetarian. And while the "criticism" section is for criticism (obviously), you still can't write "All vegans suck!" in there. Your additions don't do any favour to that section IMO, maybe it's just my POV, but I think that the additions make the arguments seem rather ridiculous. I'm fine with your opinion on veganism and the likes, but you shouldn't put too much of your POV into the article, even when it's a "criticism" section. --Conti|✉ 00:12, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
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